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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #131 - Famines, Starvation, Harvest Conditions

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Hello and welcome to another dev diary! I’m Alex and today I bring you famine, starvation, ruin and disast– I mean, happy Thursday!

Back in dev diary #126 we mentioned how for 1.8 we’re looking at how the availability of food affects the people in your country. Up until now, if food prices were high, that would lead to Pops dropping in Wealth. As a consequence of that, Pops would become unhappy and have their birth and mortality rates change. In extreme cases they would drop below Standard of Living 5, which would mark them as Starving and make their mortality rate be higher than the birthrate, resulting in the Pop’s population decreasing over time.

This is fine, but it created some problems we wanted to tackle. For one, Pop Needs don’t have shortages, so when the price caps out at +75%, that’s it. Food is always available, it just gets expensive. Another issue is that the starving status is directly tied to what Standard of Living the Pop has, meaning that regardless of why Standard of Living drops below 5, the pop is marked as Starving. Even if food is essentially free and the actual issue is that clothes are expensive. Lastly, the effects of starvation don’t scale as much as they probably should, so even at SoL 1, Pops can live on quite a while.

With all that in mind, there’s three main features we’ve added to flesh out this aspect of the game:
  • Starvation
  • Famines
  • Harvest Conditions

Below we’ll go into each of them in detail. Everything mentioned in this dev diary will be made available for free when update 1.8 arrives later this year.

Starvation, now ✨dynamic✨

As mentioned, up until now starvation has been a fixed status tied to specific SoL levels. In 1.8, all pops will have a metric for Food Security instead, which measures to what degree that Pop has access to sufficient and nutritious food. If a Pop’s Food Security gets too low, it will first be considered to be in a state of Mild Starvation. Here, Pops will start getting some penalties to their birth rate and mortality. If Food Security drops even lower, this status will change to Severe Starvation, where the Pops’ population starts decreasing fast. To be clear, both Mild and Severe Starvation penalties get progressively worse as Food Security drops, so it’s not a hard threshold where suddenly the full effects are applied.

You can now at a glance tell how much you are forgetting to feed your population while building another workshop. The map mode shows for each state if there are a lot of Pops starving there (proportional to total state population) as well as if they are mostly suffering from mild or severe starvation
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Now you must be wondering: “Okay, but what actually is Food Security? How is it measured?” We’ll get there, don’t worry, first I need to talk about Pop Needs though.

If you’ve spent some time with the game, you know that the way Pop Consumption works is that at different Wealth levels Pops need to satisfy certain Needs. These Needs can be things like Basic Food or Simple Clothing for poorer Pops or Luxury Food and Drinks for richer Pops. Each of these needs can be satisfied through a set of different goods. In the case of Basic Food, it can be satisfied by consuming different amounts of Grain, Fish, Meat, Fruit or Groceries.

Basic Food Shortages​

As mentioned, shortages currently only affect buildings while Pops are completely unaffected. In fact, we even only mark goods as having shortages at all if they are consumed by buildings.

In 1.8 that is changing somewhat: we’re introducing shortages for goods in the Basic Food Pop Need category. The calculation for if a good is in shortage is the same as before: if the number of buy orders exceeds the number of sell orders by too much it’s considered a shortage, so no surprises there.

What is somewhat different is that we’re also adding a shortage value to the Basic Food Pop Need itself. This is calculated essentially as the average shortage value for the goods in the Pop Need weighted over how much Pops are actually consuming each good. In other words, if 90% of your Pops’ food consumption is Grain and 10% is Fish, a Grain shortage will have a much stronger impact than a Fish shortage.

Nothing has really changed here, but I needed to break up the wall of text and wanted to remind you that this tooltip is in the game
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I’m sure some of you will be wondering if this means other Pop Needs will also be getting shortages - and the answer is no (for now at least). Contrary to building shortages where we can just add throughput penalties if goods are in shortage, for Pop Needs we need to consider what role the goods play to be able to determine what penalties a shortage in those Needs would entail. For now, we’re only doing this for Basic Food (with the penalty being Starvation, more details below), but having a defined way of dealing with and calculating shortages for pop consumption definitely opens the door for other Needs having shortages in the future (maybe heating or clothing, for instance?).

To help you keep track of the starvation levels in your country, we’re introducing a new panel which quickly shows you how many people in your country are starving and if you have any famines or shortages active. Additionally it also gives you information about active harvest conditions that might be affecting your states and what proportion of total basic food pop consumption each good has.
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Food Security​

With the background of how Basic Food Shortages are set up, we can finally go into the details on how Food Security works. As mentioned above, this is the metric we use to determine whether a pop is starving and how strong the effects are. Food Security is a value between 0 and 100%, where at 0% the pop is in a state of severe starvation and at 100% the pop has full and easy access to all the food it requires.

What determines a Pop’s food security is mainly a combination of two factors:
  • How much the Basic Food Pop Need is in shortage in the state in question
  • How much money the pop is spending on Basic Food compared to their whole buy package at base price

We’ve already covered the shortage part, so let me explain the second factor some more: At different wealth levels, pops need to buy different amounts of goods from a number of Needs. What we’re doing here is taking the total price for all those needs while considering only unmodified base prices and then comparing it to how much the Pop is actually spending on Basic Food.

Here’s an example: a pop at Wealth 9 needs to consume goods to cover for their Simple Clothing, Crude Items, Basic Food, Heating and Intoxicants needs. The total value of what they need at base price is 314. After considering market availability and all of that, food is actually very expensive though, meaning the pop is spending 220 on Basic Food. We then simply compare their real food expenses with their total base price expenses: 220 / 314 = 70%. That is a lot of money going towards food!

You might be rich enough to consume a country’s worth of Fine Art output, but you’ll be quickly reminded you can’t eat statues when food runs out
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Food Security then is a value that starts at 100% and is reduced by the two values above. If in addition to the 70% Basic Food Expense Share, food is also in a 20% shortage, the food security for the pop in question will be 100% - 70% - 20% = 10%, putting them firmly into severe starvation.

The reasons we went for this set of calculations in particular are primarily the following:
  • It means that as pops increase in Wealth, they’ll be less affected by increasing prices (due to food becoming a smaller part of the pop’s total buy package)
  • It means that the effects of starvation can become increasingly worse even after the price caps out and shortages become more severe
  • It means that there being literally no food in a state will affect rich pops as well even if they have a bunch of money, because you can’t eat money. (rich pops don’t consume basic food, but the shortage factor still affects them)

All of this leads to starvation being something that primarily affects poorer pops, but in the right (or wrong, I guess) circumstances it could also affect rich pops, or it could even affect no one. Have enough food and prices will be so low that food won’t be the primary concern even for the poorest in society. This is of course easier said than done, as getting your grain prices down to -75% price should be very hard for any reasonably large country. Still, it’s not mechanically impossible.

As part of decoupling starvation from Standard of Living we also had to update the Standard of Living icons and names for some of the levels
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Famines, a political classification​

If Starvation is what happens to your pops when they don’t have enough food, Famines are simply a political classification that comes up when enough pops are suffering from starvation. Specifically, we look at two metrics:
  • How many people in total are starving in the state in question?
  • How many people are specifically suffering from severe starvation in the state in question?
The goal here is that a famine should feel serious and encompassing. It should both affect a significant portion of the population in the state, but also be severe enough. In fact, this kind of classification is loosely modeled after real world classifications today (albeit with different values as the 19th Century had a different standard for such things).
As a primarily political classification, famines don’t have any direct effects on your pops. A bunch of Stockholm bureaucrats finally noticing that people in the Dominion of Norway are starving and calling it a famine doesn’t on its own make any difference for the poor Norwegians. Instead, a famine being declared is more of a political event. It can act as a starting point for narrative content surrounding famines and how to deal with them for instance.

Famines also act as a warning signal for the player. They tell you how long they’ve lasted, how many people are affected as well as estimations for how many deaths and unrealized births the famine has led to so you can feel extra bad for neglecting them.

When a famine is declared you can see it front and center in the new Food Security panel
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Harvest Conditions​

On top of the revised mechanics for starvation and famines, we also wanted to add some more volatility and unpredictability to the game with Harvest Conditions. These conditions are occurrences (often tied to weather, but not necessarily) that can happen to your states and primarily affect your agricultural sector. Here’s a breakdown of different aspects of harvest conditions:

An example of what a harvest condition can look like. The Effects described are further multiplied by the intensity in each specific affected state
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Effects​

While a lot of the effects will be tied to increasing or decreasing agricultural throughput, the effects are not strictly limited to agriculture. Floods and Wildfires might have drastic effects on your infrastructure for instance. Additionally, conditions are not necessarily negative: a pollinator surge could increase your fruit production or optimal sun conditions could lead to a particularly good harvest.

For Floods and Droughts we added some effects to the 3D map itself, so you can be more immersed while thinking about how you failed your country and let your people starve
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Regional limitations​

Harvest conditions happen on a state region level, but are often limited to certain parts of the world (Locust Swarms won’t happen in Northern Europe and Frosts won’t happen in Egypt for instance).

Duration, Range and Intensity​

Harvest conditions have variable durations, range and intensity. One drought might be milder and limited to just a couple of states, while another affects a large area for a long time. Intensity acts as a multiplier to the base effects conditions have.

If you’re curious about what harvest conditions are active around the globe you can look it up on your Victorian era weather app of choice
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Incompatibilities and Synergies​

It wouldn’t make much sense if a drought suddenly happened in a region affected by torrential rains, so most harvest conditions have a set of other conditions they’re not compatible with. A drought will never happen in a state affected by a flood, nor will a flood happen in a state with a drought. A heatwave could lead to an increased chance of a drought happening and subsequently even a wildfire. In such a case the drought would replace the heatwave and later get replaced by the wildfire.

We’ve also made changes to some existing content so it meshes with the new Harvest Conditions and Starvation. Numbers are still WIP, but should give you an idea of where we’re taking it
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That’s it for me! Hope you enjoyed learning more about how we’re dealing with famines and other aspects of human suffering. Join us two weeks from now for the anniversary week marking two years since we launched Victoria 3! (Two years already!? Who turned on Speed 5?)
 
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Nah, while his thesis was a good base line for understanding and researching pop growth, since then its been refuted. It has too many inconsistencies and special cases that can't be explained by his arguments or other times even go directly against them.

Standart of Living is an conglomeration of different factors, and surely high food security and afforadle healthcare are obviously among the bigger factos that makes up SoL. So calling it (relatively) unimportant is meaningless since having food security and healthcare will by definition be a high SoL. SoL is a scale used to measure the quality and not the real thing effecting your live. It would be like calling Thermometer showing you have high body temperature as a factor that influenced you to have a feaver :)
That's not true? There are aspects of his thesis that have been discredited or are still controversial but the core of it - the relative unimportance of curative medicine and conversely the importance of nutrition (prior to the mid 20th century) - are pretty uncontroversial. In your example, it would be like if the thermometer saying you have a fever is why you have a fever, rather than the underlying conditions. We have all the necessary components to better represent historic population growth now. There's no reason to not use them.
 
How strongly does this play into discrimination?
During the Irish Famine, the British in Ireland weren't dying, it was by and large only the Irish in Ireland.

Does being discriminated against cut access to food? Or is it just the lower income means they can't afford it.

In a number of cases, discriminated populations were the first to die and first to emigrate.
 
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We have all the necessary components to better represent historic population growth now. There's no reason to not use them.
Ofc, I completely agree.

And yeah, having varied stable food supply is really a no brainer, I would even credit that to him, but it's know fact since prehistory. Or with other words, it's also an age old fact, that was also confirmed in modern science that famine was by far number one killer of humans till late 19. century. iirc it still holds the highest death count, only after our current generation dies that it will lose the first spot. Truly the deadliest of the Four Horseman.

Healthcare might be wrong term, too broad. Double so if understand it as in 20.-21. century healthcare institution.

But improving scientific knowledge of germ theory and early vaccinations,l the importance of hygiene and the public works done into sanitation, sewage, fresh water supply, legislating minimum safetey standards and abolishing child labour did wonders for removing chronic pandemics of all kinds.

Better infrastructure and transportation methods allowing for much more flexibility and efficency in managing regional food shortages.
 
I suspect the shortcomings in the substitution formula will have greater implications now.
 
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Are there any plans to tie the harvest conditions to global or local pollution, in the short or long term? Without a full weather system, it seems like a basic proxy for the impact industrialization has on the climate, in both the clearly negative (more frequent torrential rain and droughts) and sometimes positive (say, developed farms in the Rocky Mountains decreasing the chance of locust swarms in the United States and eventually driving them to extinction).
 
Are there any plans to tie the harvest conditions to global or local pollution, in the short or long term? Without a full weather system, it seems like a basic proxy for the impact industrialization has on the climate, in both the clearly negative (more frequent torrential rain and droughts) and sometimes positive (say, developed farms in the Rocky Mountains decreasing the chance of locust swarms in the United States and eventually driving them to extinction).
Are these problems realised in the game's timeframe?
 
Are these problems realised in the game's timeframe?
Yeah, they were. Everyone burning coal for heating in shitty owens. Metallurgy from mining, to ore refinement to smelting is very dirty business. Chemical plants can be even more poisonously polluting air, water and earth. Poor if any sanitation, sewerage infrastructure. No regulations for garbage and waste disposal. Use of poisonous materials for everyday items like Asbestos and Lead. And almost complete deforestation of Europe.... so yeah.
Pollution in the later parts of 19. century Europe become a real problem....
 
How strongly does this play into discrimination?
During the Irish Famine, the British in Ireland weren't dying, it was by and large only the Irish in Ireland.

Does being discriminated against cut access to food? Or is it just the lower income means they can't afford it.

In a number of cases, discriminated populations were the first to die and first to emigrate.
Irish and Indian famines are united by, there not being a lack of food, so this mechanic can't represent them.
Those famines, like most famines, are political not natural. Ireland was a leading exporter of food during the famine, it's was just all going to Britain or sold off for profit. this DD's mechanics won't model the Irish or Indian famines at all, much less their effects.
 
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I think I answered quite a lot of questions above. Any specific concerns you have?

You sure did.

Upon Dev Diary #126 - Update 1.8 Overview I voiced many concerns. I quote:

I don't think you're nailing this approach. I don't think this would or should be a priority by now. What you described is basically adding radicalism and mortality after jumping through some hoops.

Climate seed could be simulated for each diplomatic region by Jan 1st. The production for said year would be based on a Sine-graphed (or cosine-graphed for other hemisphere) outputting function calculated with base in the seed with salt added by said "Harvest incidentes" witch I wish are positive sometimes, and are related to increase in industrial activity world-wide.

I think this would not cost so much in terms of calculations and can better represent price variations due to the global climate.

Food consumption, on the other hand, must take in account what is cheap in the Pop's state, otherwise someone could be starving but not buying cheap meat and fruits. MAPI should indirectly account a lot in this decision.

After reading the current DD #131, I stand by many of these points.

I have nothing to oppose with regards to the changes to Starvation and Food Safety, beyond what has been pointed out by @riadach (#8, already answered), @RationaLess (#10, unanswered), @Nirual (#22, unanswered), @Nnorm (#27, unanswered), @47pik (#30, unanswered), @Askorti (#33, unanswered), @SteppeStepper (#40, unanswered), @Edungeon (#44, unanswered), @strattonthebard (#47, unanswered), @Daniel the Finlander (#49, unanswered)

However....

Weather is King

I really think that the proposed implementation is missing the point.

Cool. Will there be a climate and weather system that affects pop consumption (not just food) in the future? It always feel weird to me that pops from the equator consume the same amount of heating that Europeans pops do in the north regardless of location and latitude.

Harvest Conditions are not meant to be a full on climate/weather system, but rather just focus on your rural sector. That being said it would be to do more of an actual weather simulation down the line and consider things like what you mentioned. No timeline on that though.
This looks great! Though i wish it came with a more comprehensive climate system, to make playing at different latitudes more distinct and affecting Heating needs as well.

Maybe in another update, since the systems for it seem to be in place. Great work anyways!
Will weather conditions like snow in winter also be represented on the map?

Harvest conditions are meant to represent things that affect your rural sector, primarily, rather than being a full on weather/climate/seasons system. As such we don't model winter conditions right now. It's definitely something I'd like us to do at some point though!

Modelling variability in food production without considering the weather is ludicrous.

Contrary to ~popular~ belief, the world is a spherical planet orbiting the sun on an inclined axis. This causes year-round variations in temperature on every single place - the seasons.

This also causes variations on temperature and climate from region to region - the climate.

And since the sun is not a perfectly constant source of energy, with sunspots seemingly affecting agricultural yields, and the global weather being very affected by certain systems, as the ENSO, some global and local randomness is to be expected.

Now, the first one - the seasons - is easy to model. A simple sine/cosine function with a yearly calculation on Jan 1st tick would do the job. The values in this function can be stored and applied as the year goes by, emulating the seasonal nature of agriculture.

For the second - the climate - I argue that drawing a random value for each strategic region every once in a while - at the periodicity you deemed reasonable for the current implementation of "Regional limitations" - should do the trick: if the value is very positive, you get a very positive event, such as a bountiful harvest; otherwise, if it is very negative, you get a very negative event flavorful for the given strategic region, such as floods, droughts, wildfires. If the "salt" is not too positive nor negative, you just get some fluctuation to the base sinoid/cosinoid model.

The third is just like the second, but on a global scale, not regional. It probably should be calculated just after the sine/cosine wave is generated, but explaining it after the second was easier.

It's great to see all those cool new additions!

Will the weather conditions have an effect on war? E.g. Flooding making battles way harder, etc.?
If I play as Sweden and there is a famine or a bad harvest condition, will I be able to help my poor subject and will that have an influence on the subject's liberty desire?
Modding question: Will we be able to change the probability for weather conditions with script? E.g. I add a project to build a dam which will add a modifier to the state region that reduces the chance for a flood?

Also those 3D effects are absolutely gorgeous!

Events like floods should definitely influence the wars; and events like wildfires should also be influenced by wars. The same applies to weather.

Last, but not least:

Do pops prioritize fulfilling their food needs first or would there be cases where they spend all of their cash on clothing and fell into starvation?
Would rich pops be able to resort to eating grains during food shortage or would they starve to death?
Will there be anything pertaining to food rationing?

There's no priority order as such for what goods pops consume, but more generally the reason one of the factors in the Food Security calculation is Real Food Cost compared to Expected Total Expenses at BASE COST, is specifically to avoid situation where the fluctuation of price in chairs would trigger starvation. As is we compare how much Pops are spending on food with a fixed value dependent on their Wealth level. So the price of other pop needs does not influence it.

Rich pops don't eat grain directly, they eat luxury foods. If those go up in price, they'll just pay more for them. It's only if food in general gets a severe shortage that they'll start having issues with food security, at which point there won't really be much grain for them to eat anyway.

Nothing planned for that right now, no. Do you have any suggestions for how that would work?

Thanks Alex! Will there be any changes to food substitution being calculated at a national markets sell order level instead of a local states market?

For example we can currently end up with situations where a state with a lot of fish produces far more sell orders than grain but the pops in that state have their food substitution between fish and grain calculated on the national markets sell orders for each thus creating situations where pops are trying to consume expensive grain in a state with abundant cheap fish?

No changes to food substitution are planned for now at least. But it is something we have our eyes on.

Also please make it so that people consume meat when they're starving. I only play Spain and I got meat off my ears but nobody buys it! If something happens and I fail to provide enough grain for my pops I just want to make them eat meat off my hands for a change!

I suspect the shortcomings in the substitution formula will have greater implications now.


This looks great for making a much more dynamic world, kudos! I can't wait to play 1.8!

The issue with substitution is that it's calculated on national markets sell orders not local markets. So you can have a state that produces a metric ton of meat but if it's still only a small part of the national market pops will not substitute towards it leaving the meat to spoil and the pops to starve

This raises the question again, can you look at fixing goods substitution to be based on price and not goods availability? I know that the calculation to do so is complex, but as you continue to add (excellent) new features like this, it seems that it will add more and more odd situations. Fixing it now will be a bit of work to get it functioning and balanced but should reduce the number of adjustments you will have to make in the future.

The issue with making it look at price is that it introduces circular dependencies where price depends on consumption depends on price, etc. There are ways of solving this and we're investigating some of them, but it's a somewhat complex issue to make work well. We could for instance work with different timesteps for each of them and have them work on delayed data, but what tends to happen is you get these very unstable prices tends which continuously oscillate. So, generally, no timeline or promises here

The overall worry with the many shortcomings of the poor design of the substitution system have been pointed out repeatedly.

Instead of adding another system that increases simulation complexity without adding any deep gameplay abstraction, as weather, I reckon that looking at the issue of substitution would be much better for the community.

The proposed famine system is nothing but another way to add instability. It is half baked and tends to no issues pointed out by the community. It also poorly integrates with many mechanics that have been asked for, such as pollution and plagues.

It is not that I'm not happy to have it, instead of the current nothing. But I think this is a side-step, not a step in the right direction to make the game actually better.
 
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The issue with making it look at price is that it introduces circular dependencies where price depends on consumption depends on price, etc. There are ways of solving this and we're investigating some of them, but it's a somewhat complex issue to make work well. We could for instance work with different timesteps for each of them and have them work on delayed data, but what tends to happen is you get these very unstable prices tends which continuously oscillate. So, generally, no timeline or promises here
I understand it is a complex problem to solve, but there is already a bit of pingponging of prices due to production changing relative to prices, it just tends towards equilibrium when maximum employment is hit. I suspect it would be possible to do something like only revaluate buy packages when the price per utility is 10% different or something, though obviously the team has a lot greater knowledge of what is happening under the hood to understand whether it is feasible. It seems that it would be worth solving now since this is a prime application of it, and it could help make trade work more elegantly in a future trade rebalance/rework.
Early in my career I worked with a database that had a column name misspelled as "descirption" that had been left in since it was developed by two guys in a closet in the 80s. As references to it proliferated the number of places it had to get fixed became unwieldy. Now that system has many thousands of users who have to remember to purposely misspell the column name every time because it was decided it was too complex to fix. I don't work in that industry any more so that's a problem for past Monk.

If they set substitution to local state markets instead of national it should be fine!
That would probably help the symptom at least a bit.

> if 90% of your Pops’ food consumption is Grain and 10% is Fish, a Grain shortage will have a much stronger impact than a Fish shortage.
Maybe pops actually switching to fish consumption until the shortage is balanced would make much more sense?
Further reading.
The Price Based Goods Substitution Lobby would probably be more than happy to help figure out an elegant mathematical solution to this. Especially if it were moddable, I'm fairly certain that the community could hit upon a good balance for how this would work that could be incorporated back into the base game.
 
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You sure did.

Upon Dev Diary #126 - Update 1.8 Overview I voiced many concerns. I quote:
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But for a more serious response:

Weather is not being introduced to the game. People call it weather, but it's intentionally being called Harvest Conditions. If you want to model proper seasons and weather, a "A simple sine/cosine function with a yearly calculation" won't do it. You would need to take into account yearly precipitation in every single state together with average wind speed, ground water storage, there would need to be ocean currents, temperature of bodies of water and micro-climate calculations, elevation and mountain ranges, just looking at hurricane milton to properly simulate weather and seasons it would require a proper simulation of air pressure. And also it would require a historically accurate sun radiation calculation, by properly calculating the tilt of the planet’s axis and its orbit around the sun. All of these factors would need to be taken into account and affect agricultural and affect different army compositions differently. Otherwise, what even is the point, right?

Victoria 3 isn't a game intended to accurately simulate hydrological and meteorological weather across 100 years, it's a game about having Charles Marx lead the Lone Red Star state. The mechanical outcome of calculating how sunspots affect agricultural yield, means that some 6 levels of a Rice Farm building outputs 18 less units of the Grain good, which has a base price of £20. If time of the year would affect agricultural output, that means every 4 minutes all the prices of all agricultural goods would go up, then 4 minutes later go down, then 4 minutes later go up again, and go down, and that 100 times. There's no fun or interesting gameplay here.
Meanwhile judging from the screenshot saying "Waning (4 weeks left)" harvest conditions seem to be over the course of months if not an entire year. Or in other words be handled like battles across Paradox games; much longer than they are in real life, but appropriately long for a videogame on these timescales.

Finally, if it's so easy and "a simple sine/cosine function with a yearly calculation", then nothing will be stopping you from simply modding it yourself. You could already do that now, using variables and state modifiers. If "the community" is so much on your side, your mod will get hundreds of thousands of downloads. But that would actually require some work, it's much easier to self-righteously demand and complain and ask to speak to the game's manager.
 
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The most ludicrous is the irony of people demanding better, more accurate simulation, yet with consumers and producers with perfect knowledge and access. Without preferences or opinions. With individual investors in unregulated LF free market, that act's with decisions of ideal total command economy planned by perfect Omnipotent, Omniscient, and Omnipresent Intelligence, always achieving pure and unbiased mathematical balance. Ensuring optimal reality with elegance and grace.

And the mental dissonance doesn't stops here.

Because God forbid, if anyone would just suggests for ingame state run command economy not suffering from all kinds of inefficiencies.
Or Prussian space marines not having their inherent skills and knowledge of stoic ubermensch...
 
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TBH I wouldn't want the devs investing much more effort in this areas. Maybe it's worthwhile if you are playing on an exceptionally large screen or a very small country (Krakow!), but most of the time I have to be zoomed out in order to see essential information, so these detailed graphics at the highest zoom level are invisible and useless to me.
Labour specialization, there are artist working in the game.

When the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krakatoa event happens in game I would like to see the explosion and the island going under the sea. We had that in I:R, after the volcano event you could zoom in and see the eruption real time.

I would love to get an event on floods in China and take one monent out of whatever I was concentrated with and zoom in to enjoy the World feeling alive with this graphic bonbons.
 
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Yeah, they were. Everyone burning coal for heating in shitty owens. Metallurgy from mining, to ore refinement to smelting is very dirty business. Chemical plants can be even more poisonously polluting air, water and earth. Poor if any sanitation, sewerage infrastructure. No regulations for garbage and waste disposal. Use of poisonous materials for everyday items like Asbestos and Lead. And almost complete deforestation of Europe.... so yeah.
Pollution in the later parts of 19. century Europe become a real problem....
Pollution effects on agricultural output =\= pollution effects on probability of harvest events, i.e. the climate (the subject of my question and this dev diary)
 
Will there be any scripted harvest conditions? I’m not generally in favor of a lot of scripting, but an event to trigger the hungry 1840s would be a great way to shake up the status quo in early game Europe and pave the way for the springtime of the peoples content.
 
I think this is something that could and probably should be tied into the general stability of your country. Fact is that without famine, the french revolution perhaps wouldn´t have unfolded the way it did. And famine was a driver for both migration to the americas in the 1840´s as well as springtime of the peoples. The same goes for wars and revolutions, with the first world war being the last war of the great european empires for example. And in that you have food security as well. You could perhaps make some of the political upheaval of the 19th and early 20th century better explainable with this sort of mechanics
 
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Can I make people starve less by taking away their dining chairs? N-No, hold on, I seriously mean it.

If a poor pop spends majority of their money satisfying their food need, then they are starving, but if I close all the furniture factories, only plant fancy trees, and switch all clothes production to handkerchiefs for the bourgeoisie, will they now have to pay so much for everything else, that their food need will drop to like 20%, and they'll forget they were hungry, or is it always base price?
That’s not how the calculation works. The percentage is (money spent on basic food)/(base cost of their total needs package). Increasing the price actually spent on the non-food portions of the needs package has no effect.

Irish and Indian famines are united by, there not being a lack of food, so this mechanic can't represent them.
Those famines, like most famines, are political not natural. Ireland was a leading exporter of food during the famine, it's was just all going to Britain or sold off for profit. this DD's mechanics won't model the Irish or Indian famines at all, much less their effects.
The thing is, Ireland didn’t have famines every year despite this economic model. It took a combination of that and the supply shock of the potato blight to actually trigger a full scale famine. In V3 terms, Irish peasants already had low food security because they are poor and discriminated against while grain is expensive in market integrated Ireland. But then the blight event hits, agricultural productivity goes down, buy orders exceed sell orders, the shortage penalties to food security kick in and things get really bad.

I think this is something that could and probably should be tied into the general stability of your country.
Oh yeah. Starvation should breed radicals like crazy. And the tax modifier to radicals from SOL drops should be applied to it.
 
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Are these problems realised in the game's timeframe?
I think it should depend on how quickly the world industrializes in a game, but I think it should be a possibility, scaling as pollution increases, or maybe scaling with a hidden counter tracking the total generated over the course of the game. Acid rain in heavily industrialized states or some equivalent to the dust bowl in heavily farmed dryland areas should be possible as well.

This might be straying off topic, but some kind of permanent harvest condition could maybe be used to simulate the spread of disease and invasive species in woodlands as well (i.e., Chestnut blight in North America and Europe).
 
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