The Hohenzollern Chronicles 5: Reborn Phoenix - The Roman Story in New World Order

[CaptainAlvious]

I’d like to keep a lot of the lore from the first link, only with either period-appropriate or original names. The Mongol stuff does line up with our discussion of the Mongol slave trade, though there were many skilled free Mongols who migrated into Persia on their own.

Now that I think about it, a lot of Cossack institutions, like the Sich Rada and the institution of the hetman, would have made their way into the Yavdian government due to it being a blend of Finnish, Rusian, and Mongol/Turkic influences. Also, while researching the Rusian placenames, I learned Yaroslavl was a major Russian city in OTL and at one point its second largest city, so in a much smaller Rus' it would still remain very powerful and influential. While Novgorod would be the economic center and gain new life due to the rise of Tsarberg and the government's pivot to the north, Yaroslavl and Rostov would be the center of traditional politics and culture, since the former had a long history and the latter was a center of paganism. In addition to Novgorodian and Kyivan culture, there would probably be another major Rusian culture centered on Yaroslavl and Rostov.

After some digging, I wonder if Persia would have something like the Persian Cossack Brigade due to Cossacks from Yavdi and Turkestan making their down south towards Persia, willingly or not, after Saltuk and Furuzan break the power of the Muslims and bring in slaves from conquered territories, contributing to the later Persian revolution and Reza Khan's regime? I could also see the Hanseatic League establishing a presence in Persia at some point since Furuzan's activities mirror Shah Abbas and he had relations with the Dutch and English East India Companies, which could mesh well with both the concessions and the coup that brought Reza back to power come to think of it. As for Reza Khan's ideology, maybe a mix of both what the OTL Pahlavi dynasty does as well as various kinds of corporatism such as Italian Fascism and Estado Novo, albiet with Persia already being a fully modern state in TTL like Rus'.

Also while doing research on Shah Abbas, specifically his deportations of Caucasians, I found that Circassian, Armenian, and Georgian are all exonyms, so I now wonder if we should switch over to Adyghe, Hay, and Kartvelians?

The Rasas would take more from Hindutva and traditional Indian social concepts (like a more rigid and British Raj-like caste system and Ganasangha as you mentioned), mixed with Hindu nationalism, Indo-Aryan supremacy, territorial revanchism, and heavy Islamophobia and Turkophobia. Depending on how the Sikhs show up and interact with Indian society, they could have either been persecuted or considered allies by the Rasas, seeing as the real RSS has a Sikh partner organization.

I like the idea of militant Sikhs and Jewish groups siding with the Rasas and Angeloi even tho that's almost certainly against their long term interests, as it fits well with the theme of fascists pitting other groups against each other to gain and keep power, and the in-group constantly shrinking due to always needing an out-group. Also fits with the defections from old canon, even if that probably will be reworked.

 

[zenphoenix]

After some digging, I wonder if Persia would have something like the Persian Cossack Brigade due to Cossacks from Yavdi and Turkestan making their down south towards Persia, willingly or not, after Saltuk and Furuzan break the power of the Muslims and bring in slaves from conquered territories, contributing to the later Persian revolution and Reza Khan's regime?

There was likely a large Cossack population in Khiva when it came under Persian rule, so they could have been integrated into the Persian army.

I could also see the Hanseatic League establishing a presence in Persia at some point since Furuzan's activities mirror Shah Abbas and he had relations with the Dutch and English East India Companies, which could mesh well with both the concessions and the coup that brought Reza back to power come to think of it.

It definitely would help explain why the Reich landlocked Persia for a time.

As for Reza Khan's ideology, maybe a mix of both what the OTL Pahlavi dynasty does as well as various kinds of corporatism such as Italian Fascism and Estado Novo, albiet with Persia already being a fully modern state in TTL like Rus'.

That might work.

Also while doing research on Shah Abbas, specifically his deportations of Caucasians, I found that Circassian, Armenian, and Georgian are all exonyms, so I now wonder if we should switch over to Adyghe, Hay, and Kartvelians?

The exonyms would still be used by the Roman government. Armenian and Georgian could have been used by the medieval Reich, while the etymology of "Circassian" is still debated so I could assume it was one of the non-Russian ones.

I like the idea of militant Sikhs and Jewish groups siding with the Rasas and Angeloi even tho that's almost certainly against their long term interests, as it fits well with the theme of fascists pitting other groups against each other to gain and keep power, and the in-group constantly shrinking due to always needing an out-group. Also fits with the defections from old canon, even if that probably will be reworked.

Some readers have already told me they quit reading because of it, so yeah, the defections will be reworked.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

The exonyms would still be used by the Roman government. Armenian and Georgian could have been used by the medieval Reich, while the etymology of "Circassian" is still debated so I could assume it was one of the non-Russian ones.

Fair enough. I wonder if we should also swap out “Chechen” for something less Russian, like Nakhchiy, or just Nakh in general to be more broad.

 

[zenphoenix]

Fair enough. I wonder if we should also swap out “Chechen” for something less Russian, like Nakhchiy, or just Nakh in general to be more broad.

That works.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Srivijaya Commonwealth (low priority rename pending if only because I don’t know what else to use)

Maybe you could use Suvarṇabhūmi/Suvarnadvipa as an alternative name for Srivijaya?

 

[zenphoenix]

Maybe you could use Suvarṇabhūmi/Suvarnadvipa as an alternative name for Srivijaya?

I’m not sure. While those names sometimes were used for the entire region, some historical texts used them for Sumatra and Java. Same goes for Yavadvipa, which I looked up previously. I think the Southeast Asian nations would be wary of adopting an Indian name that would give the impression of aligning with India. Though I’ve also screwed myself in that area because the only other names I could use are Greek or Chinese ones, leaving me only the very neutral “Southeast Asia.” I might end up going with that.

In addition, while I was researching this, I found a possible name for the Central Asian colonies: Uttarakuru.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I’m not sure. While those names sometimes were used for the entire region, some historical texts used them for Sumatra and Java. Same goes for Yavadvipa, which I looked up previously. I think the Southeast Asian nations would be wary of adopting an Indian name that would give the impression of aligning with India. Though I’ve also screwed myself in that area because the only other names I could use are Greek or Chinese ones, leaving me only the very neutral “Southeast Asia.” I might end up going with that.

Ah, that’s pretty disappointed, but I can’t come up with anything else so we’re not just stuck with Southeast Asia unfortunately. Any institutions we can name it after, like what we came up for the UVR and Kanonsionnikowa? The more I look tho, the I see that Indian cultural influences goes a long ways back, and I don’t think anything’s going to stop nationalists, so I kinda wonder if we should actually stick with the name I suggested, Yavadvipa, or even just Srivijaya, or repurpose the Indian and Chinese names for colonial administrations? I guess we can have multiple names be canon based on context.

Anyways since we’ve brought up names for Java, I wonder if Nustantara should be renamed at this point?

Also I wonder if Nan'yō (南洋) can be used for an independent Horaijin state?

 

[zenphoenix]

Ah, that’s pretty disappointed, but I can’t come up with anything else so we’re not just stuck with Southeast Asia unfortunately. Any institutions we can name it after, like what we came up for the UVR and Kanonsionnikowa? The more I look tho, the I see that Indian cultural influences goes a long ways back, and I don’t think anything’s going to stop nationalists, so I kinda wonder if we should actually stick with the name I suggested, Yavadvipa, or even just Srivijaya, or repurpose the Indian and Chinese names for colonial administrations? I guess we can have multiple names be canon based on context.

Anyways since we’ve brought up names for Java, I wonder if Nustantara should be renamed at this point?

Also I wonder if Nan'yō (南洋) can be used for an independent Horaijin state?

I looked up some other historical names in the process. A shame that I already used Nusantara for "Indonesia" as it could have been applied to the entire region with sufficient in-universe justification. But I'm keeping it as is.

The word "Nusantara" is a mix of nusa ("islands") from Old Javanese and antara ("in between") from Sanskrit. I could translate it into Thai and Malay, since the Thai and Malay states were at the political and geographical center of 20th-21st century Southeast Asia, with influences from all three major powers. That gives me the Thai ระหว่าง (Rah̄ẁāng, "between") and Malay tanah ("land"), or "Tanahrawang." Since this is a compound word from two languages, I don't know how it translates into other languages. Another idea I previously had was that the bloc has Sanskrit, Chinese, and Greek names that are all equally official and used depending on the cultural region, but that might be a bit complicated.

I'll consider it when I finally get to drawing that map.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I looked up some other historical names in the process. A shame that I already used Nusantara for "Indonesia" as it could have been applied to the entire region with sufficient in-universe justification. But I'm keeping it as is.

The word "Nusantara" is a mix of nusa ("islands") from Old Javanese and antara ("in between") from Sanskrit. I could translate it into Thai and Malay, since the Thai and Malay states were at the political and geographical center of 20th-21st century Southeast Asia, with influences from all three major powers. That gives me the Thai ระหว่าง (Rah̄ẁāng, "between") and Malay tanah ("land"), or "Tanahrawang." Since this is a compound word from two languages, I don't know how it translates into other languages. Another idea I previously had was that the bloc has Sanskrit, Chinese, and Greek names that are all equally official and used depending on the cultural region, but that might be a bit complicated.

I'll consider it when I finally get to drawing that map.

Looks good to me. The new name gives me Intermarium/Międzymorze vibes. Circling back to disscussions of Central Asia's overall name and placenames, I wonder if we can have Indian cities since you've brought up Uttarakuru, as old lore Turkestan had an interwar era capital called Turkestan City that was destroyed by WW2? As for CAC names, I found Mawarannahr, which was used for Transoxiana, but since it means "land beyond the river", maybe it can still work in the context of being beyond the Indus or the Tirgis and Euphrates, so the bloc's name would be something approximating "land beyond/between the river(s)".

 

[zenphoenix]

Looks good to me. The new name gives me Intermarium/Międzymorze vibes. Circling back to disscussions of Central Asia's overall name and placenames, I wonder if we can have Indian cities since you've brought up Uttarakuru, as old lore Turkestan had an interwar era capital called Turkestan City that was destroyed by WW2? As for CAC names, I found Mawarannahr, which was used for Transoxiana, but since it means "land beyond the river", maybe it can still work in the context of being beyond the Indus or the Tirgis and Euphrates, so the bloc's name would be something approximating "land beyond/between the river(s)".

As with Southeast Asia, the people of Central Asia would be wary of anything Indian sounding due to their colonial past and the Rasas. Most of the cities founded with Indian names would have been renamed with their Indian populations deported after WWII if not WWI.

I did, however, find a name I might be able to use while looking up Transoxiana: Khorasan, which covers at least a part of all three countries.

My use of Turkestan City was probably from me misinterpreting the city called Turkistan on the HOI3 map, which ironically was what the Russians did in OTL.

 

[zenphoenix]

as old lore Turkestan had an interwar era capital called Turkestan City that was destroyed by WW2?

To expand on this, it's currently on my map as "Shavgar," one of its older names before the 16th-17th centuries. "Turkistan" came from it being named 'Hazrat-i Turkistan' ("the Saint of Turkistan") in honor of a 12th century Sufi saint, but here I could just have it be given the name in the 20th century upon independence from India.

That led me back down the rabbit hole that was adjusting borders, so here I am, three hours after writing the previous two sentences, having completely overhauled Turkestan.

Turkestan's weird shape is gone, and it's made a bit bigger so that Persia doesn't instantly dominate the CAC. Some notes on its history that led here:

The parts west of Bukhara used to be Persian. Turkestan's border between the Caspian and Aral Seas is the old Persian-Yavdian border, restored after World War III. The region was steadily taken by Yavdi and India over the 18th-20th centuries until the Turks rebelled and took it all after World War I. That fueled Persian nationalism in that century and later the Persian fascist movement. The annexation of Merv was a high priority for these fascists due to its spiritual significance. During the Cold War, the post-fascist government still maintained claims on Merv because of the discovery of natural gas in the area. The UVR also pushed the northwestern border further south, making it run between the Aral Sea and that large bay on the eastern coast of the Caspian now. You can use the map in the table of contents as a reference. Shavgar was chosen as the capital of independent Turkestan after World War I, renamed Turkestan/Turkistan. It was destroyed during World War II, and the government ultimately relocated to Samarkand. The name reverted to Shavgar afterwards.

There were some territories north of the Aral Sea that interwar Turkestan controlled by are now under Yavdian control. Although I said that the UVR wasn't as Russocentric as the USSR, there was probably some ethnic cleansing being carried out in the region by local volosts under the guise of eradicating feudalism and capitalism, so the Turks there were expelled to Turkestan. Turkestan still maintains claims there. China of course refused to relinquish Chinese Turkestan to the nation of Turkestan due to the oil reserves of the Tarim Basin. The Chinese territories directly north of Turkestan also remained under Chinese control due to the heavy military presence there. Tyuretam is not like OTL's Baikonur spaceport, but rather hosts a heavily fortified Chinese military base. Turkestan reasserted its claims to the region after World War III. There is a mess of competing Yavdian, Persian, and Turkish claims on each other's lands, but Persia and Turkestan don't actively press for their claims against each other, while Yavdi and Turkestan's border issues were one reason Yavdi withdrew from the CAC (in addition to the Paulluist takeover).

Now I have to fix the colors again.

 

[zenphoenix]

Anyways, with that done, I've begun working on the maps. Here's a teaser for one of them:

 

[CaptainAlvious]

To expand on this, it's currently on my map as "Shavgar," one of its older names before the 16th-17th centuries. "Turkistan" came from it being named 'Hazrat-i Turkistan' ("the Saint of Turkistan") in honor of a 12th century Sufi saint, but here I could just have it be given the name in the 20th century upon independence from India.

That led me back down the rabbit hole that was adjusting borders, so here I am, three hours after writing the previous two sentences, having completely overhauled Turkestan.

View attachment 1202609​

Turkestan's weird shape is gone, and it's made a bit bigger so that Persia doesn't instantly dominate the CAC. Some notes on its history that led here:

The parts west of Bukhara used to be Persian. Turkestan's border between the Caspian and Aral Seas is the old Persian-Yavdian border, restored after World War III. The region was steadily taken by Yavdi and India over the 18th-20th centuries until the Turks rebelled and took it all after World War I. That fueled Persian nationalism in that century and later the Persian fascist movement. The annexation of Merv was a high priority for these fascists due to its spiritual significance. During the Cold War, the post-fascist government still maintained claims on Merv because of the discovery of natural gas in the area. The UVR also pushed the northwestern border further south, making it run between the Aral Sea and that large bay on the eastern coast of the Caspian now. You can use the map in the table of contents as a reference. Shavgar was chosen as the capital of independent Turkestan after World War I, renamed Turkestan/Turkistan. It was destroyed during World War II, and the government ultimately relocated to Samarkand. The name reverted to Shavgar afterwards.

There were some territories north of the Aral Sea that interwar Turkestan controlled by are now under Yavdian control. Although I said that the UVR wasn't as Russocentric as the USSR, there was probably some ethnic cleansing being carried out in the region by local volosts under the guise of eradicating feudalism and capitalism, so the Turks there were expelled to Turkestan. Turkestan still maintains claims there. China of course refused to relinquish Chinese Turkestan to the nation of Turkestan due to the oil reserves of the Tarim Basin. The Chinese territories directly north of Turkestan also remained under Chinese control due to the heavy military presence there. Tyuretam is not like OTL's Baikonur spaceport, but rather hosts a heavily fortified Chinese military base. Turkestan reasserted its claims to the region after World War III. There is a mess of competing Yavdian, Persian, and Turkish claims on each other's lands, but Persia and Turkestan don't actively press for their claims against each other, while Yavdi and Turkestan's border issues were one reason Yavdi withdrew from the CAC (in addition to the Paulluist takeover).

Now I have to fix the colors again.

Interesting. I wonder what China would call the Turkic territories under its control, maybe Qixi? I wonder if China would end up grouping North Persia and Turkestan into one state during the Cold War like they did with North Siam as well? I wonder if that would lead to a rework to the Persian civil war and the 1953 coup? Also I wonder if there are placenames we can change here? So far I'm thinking of replacing Ashgabat with Konjikala since it seems like the former is a 19th century city from what I can tell.

Anyways, with that done, I've begun working on the maps. Here's a teaser for one of them

Lmao, that's to be expected after Moria's recent gamer moment on June 30th. I think now though Han might be breaking Moria's killstreak and raking up a higher score.

 

[zenphoenix]

Interesting. I wonder what China would call the Turkic territories under its control, maybe Qixi? I wonder if China would end up grouping North Persia and Turkestan into one state during the Cold War like they did with North Siam as well? I wonder if that would lead to a rework to the Persian civil war and the 1953 coup? Also I wonder if there are placenames we can change here? So far I'm thinking of replacing Ashgabat with Konjikala since it seems like the former is a 19th century city from what I can tell.

My notes had the following as administrative units under modern China:

Anbei Province = central Chinese Siberia (Lake Baikal)
Anjin Province = eastern Chinese Siberia (the coast)
Kunling Province = western Chinese Siberia (the Yavdian border)

They're supposed to be added to the map if I ever do one for provinces. Anbei (安北) is "Pacified North" as it refers to the parts of Siberia between the Yavdian border and the coast. Anjin (安金) is "Pacified Jin" and refers to the Pacific coast, particularly the regions formerly under Jurchen and Jin rule. Kunling I don't remember where I got it from, but I think it comes from the Tang-era Kunling (崑陵) Protectorate that was established over Xinjiang (there's no Wikipedia page, but it's also an alternate name for Kunlun), and then I had the Ming-era one be applied to the western regions closer to the Yavdian border. Now that I think of it, I could have the even further west territories around Turkestan be organized as Anxi (安西) Province, or the "Pacified West."

China would have kept Persia as a separate state from Turkestan to avoid making its puppet there too powerful, since Turkestan and Persia are both rich in natural resources.

I've now changed Ashgabat to Konjikala. Didn't see that when I first went through the placenames in the region. My idea was that a lot of the cities in western Turkestan were founded by Persia in the 19th century to take advantage of the resources found during the Industrial Revolution. That's why I have Chaharkan there, and I planned to add more, but I got writer's block. But since I found a couple cities to add in Xinjiang while researching the above, I might add them now.

Lmao, that's to be expected after Moria's recent gamer moment on June 30th. I think now though Han might be breaking Moria's killstreak and raking up a higher score.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

My notes had the following as administrative units under modern China:

Anbei Province = central Chinese Siberia (Lake Baikal)
Anjin Province = eastern Chinese Siberia (the coast)
Kunling Province = western Chinese Siberia (the Yavdian border)

They're supposed to be added to the map if I ever do one for provinces. Anbei (安北) is "Pacified North" as it refers to the parts of Siberia between the Yavdian border and the coast. Anjin (安金) is "Pacified Jin" and refers to the Pacific coast, particularly the regions formerly under Jurchen and Jin rule. Kunling I don't remember where I got it from, but I think it comes from the Tang-era Kunling (崑陵) Protectorate that was established over Xinjiang (there's no Wikipedia page, but it's also an alternate name for Kunlun), and then I had the Ming-era one be applied to the western regions closer to the Yavdian border. Now that I think of it, I could have the even further west territories around Turkestan be organized as Anxi (安西) Province, or the "Pacified West."

China would have kept Persia as a separate state from Turkestan to avoid making its puppet there too powerful, since Turkestan and Persia are both rich in natural resources.

I've now changed Ashgabat to Konjikala. Didn't see that when I first went through the placenames in the region. My idea was that a lot of the cities in western Turkestan were founded by Persia in the 19th century to take advantage of the resources found during the Industrial Revolution. That's why I have Chaharkan there, and I planned to add more, but I got writer's block. But since I found a couple cities to add in Xinjiang while researching the above, I might add them now.

I now wonder what China would call Tibet and the Southeast Asian and Indian borders? As for place-name changes, so far I have the idea of using older spellings and pronunciations in the east, like rendering Shymkent as as the Sogdian Chimkent or Samarkand as Sämizkänd, tho I can see an argument to keep the latter city as is due to linguistic drift, while the former only had its name changed in 1993. I’ll need to look more at the other cities on the map for more placename ideas.

 

[GhostRider124]

They're supposed to be added to the map if I ever do one for provinces. Anbei (安北) is "Pacified North" as it refers to the parts of Siberia between the Yavdian border and the coast. Anjin (安金) is "Pacified Jin" and refers to the Pacific coast, particularly the regions formerly under Jurchen and Jin rule. Kunling I don't remember where I got it from, but I think it comes from the Tang-era Kunling (崑陵) Protectorate that was established over Xinjiang (there's no Wikipedia page, but it's also an alternate name for Kunlun), and then I had the Ming-era one be applied to the western regions closer to the Yavdian border. Now that I think of it, I could have the even further west territories around Turkestan be organized as Anxi (安西) Province, or the "Pacified West."

I think that for Kunling you could use the name Anxi Protectorate that the Tang used and use the name Kunlun as the name for TTL's Rocky Mountains?

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I think that for Kunling you could use the name Anxi Protectorate that the Tang used and use the name Kunlun as the name for TTL's Rocky Mountains?

Since that name are already used for real life Tibetan mountains, could 落基山脉(Luò jī shānmài), or however that looks in Middle Chinese work, while the Meskwaki could use the Cree ᐊᓯᐣᐘᑎ (asin-wati) or Aseniwuche? I now wonder what the Appalachian and Andean mountains are called here? Then again, something tells me you might have already covered their names in your Tianxia updates Ghostrider.

 

[zenphoenix]

I now wonder what China would call Tibet and the Southeast Asian and Indian borders? As for place-name changes, so far I have the idea of using older spellings and pronunciations in the east, like rendering Shymkent as as the Sogdian Chimkent or Samarkand as Sämizkänd, tho I can see an argument to keep the latter city as is due to linguistic drift, while the former only had its name changed in 1993. I’ll need to look more at the other cities on the map for more placename ideas.

Tibet: either Tubo (吐蕃 or 土蕃) or Zang (藏). The former is attested to in the Tang Dynasty, while the latter is taken from the currently used Chinese name for Tibet, but it has historical precedent too, though the full Xizang was only coined in the Qing Dynasty.

Southeast Asia: Probably just various names based on the different regions, peoples, and political entities. Though I might rework how the Tran Dynasty was absorbed into China since I already did the same with Korea.

Indian border regions: Just India. Though northern Burma would be part of Yunnan Province.

I changed Shymkent to Chimkand, but I'm keeping Samarkand as is for reader's convenience.

While I was trying to answer this, I got carried away and added placenames not only to Central Asia but also the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, and western China. I split it up into multiple screenshots below.

For a while I thought I was missing an Armenian city. Turns out I missed Yerevan itself. It's back now, along with a lot of additions to Mesopotamia. I mentioned Babylon and Susa before, so I'm adding them to the map along with Ilam and a couple other cities. Pubedita would be a major Jewish settlement with great universities. I know Kermanshah's name tag looks weird, so it's fixed in the next picture below.

I didn't like how Persia had only four cities on the map, so I added every major city I could find with at least some roots in the medieval or early modern era, even if the current name or city came from the industrial era. While researching this, I learned there were several cities that remained openly and largely Zoroastrian, or were allowed to keep that faith, after the Islamic conquest. I don't think it'll play too much into the whole crypto-Zoroastrian Seljuks thing other than giving them a small power base. They probably shifted towards the hybrid Islam/Zoroastrianism as Friedrich the Great's crusades began and the Islamic world collapsed.

Turkestan got way more cities, but most of them are in the Fergana Valley or the surrounding areas. I tried adding cities to the western part, but most of them were Russian cities founded in the 19th or 20th centuries. I did add Sarayjuq up in Yavdi in the corner, which could have contributed to the Romans coming up with the name "Saray" (alongside Sarai and "Tsaritsyn" further west). "Seljukorda" is Kyzylorda, but Wikipedia said that Seljuk (as in the founder of the Seljuk dynasty) built a fort there at some point, so I had the Indian colonizers name their new city that after lots of Persian settlers moved in.

Afghanistan got some more cities and had part of its northern border restored to OTL because that part uses a river. I didn't expect to add so many cities to the Indian subcontinent. Karachi has been replaced by the historical ports Debal and Thatta. I forgot about Varanasi when I first started working on the cities. Bihar and Bengal got a lot of cities due to me adding the historical Buddhist universities and pre-Dhaka capitals, which led me to come up with all sorts of new lore. I added the Buddhist universities with the assumption that they became true university towns, the Indian equivalent of Oxford and Cambridge, and eventually started teaching subjects other than Buddhist theology. They also weren't sacked and destroyed by invaders. The historic political and economic centers of Bengal survived too as major centers of commerce and innovation due to being close to the ports on the Ganges delta and the Silk Road routes coming through Burma. It connects very well with our previous discussions on the Bengal Subah. I like to think of early modern Bengal as similar to the Netherlands if not northern England in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Also, Nepal and Bhutan got quite a lot of cities. Apparently some of Nepal's biggest cities are really close to Kathmandu, so they got squished together on my map.

And finally, I added many of the old Silk Road towns in western China. Not much to add here. They still would have faded in importance as trade shifted away from inter-Eurasia and towards trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific routes, but the towns remained under first Ghaznavid and then Chinese rule. This is giving me ideas for how the Ghaznavid realm was annexed by China.

I think that for Kunling you could use the name Anxi Protectorate that the Tang used and use the name Kunlun as the name for TTL's Rocky Mountains?

Since that name are already used for real life Tibetan mountains, could 落基山脉(Luò jī shānmài), or however that looks in Middle Chinese work, while the Meskwaki could use the Cree ᐊᓯᐣᐘᑎ (asin-wati) or Aseniwuche? I now wonder what the Appalachian and Andean mountains are called here? Then again, something tells me you might have already covered their names in your Tianxia updates Ghostrider.

I’ll keep the current “Fusang Range” unless I find a better namd.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Tibet: either Tubo (吐蕃 or 土蕃) or Zang (藏). The former is attested to in the Tang Dynasty, while the latter is taken from the currently used Chinese name for Tibet, but it has historical precedent too, though the full Xizang was only coined in the Qing Dynasty.

Southeast Asia: Probably just various names based on the different regions, peoples, and political entities. Though I might rework how the Tran Dynasty was absorbed into China since I already did the same with Korea.

Indian border regions: Just India. Though northern Burma would be part of Yunnan Province.

I changed Shymkent to Chimkand, but I'm keeping Samarkand as is for reader's convenience.

While I was trying to answer this, I got carried away and added placenames not only to Central Asia but also the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent, and western China. I split it up into multiple screenshots below.

View attachment 1203092​

For a while I thought I was missing an Armenian city. Turns out I missed Yerevan itself. It's back now, along with a lot of additions to Mesopotamia. I mentioned Babylon and Susa before, so I'm adding them to the map along with Ilam and a couple other cities. Pubedita would be a major Jewish settlement with great universities. I know Kermanshah's name tag looks weird, so it's fixed in the next picture below.

View attachment 1203093​

I didn't like how Persia had only four cities on the map, so I added every major city I could find with at least some roots in the medieval or early modern era, even if the current name or city came from the industrial era. While researching this, I learned there were several cities that remained openly and largely Zoroastrian, or were allowed to keep that faith, after the Islamic conquest. I don't think it'll play too much into the whole crypto-Zoroastrian Seljuks thing other than giving them a small power base. They probably shifted towards the hybrid Islam/Zoroastrianism as Friedrich the Great's crusades began and the Islamic world collapsed.

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Turkestan got way more cities, but most of them are in the Fergana Valley or the surrounding areas. I tried adding cities to the western part, but most of them were Russian cities founded in the 19th or 20th centuries. I did add Sarayjuq up in Yavdi in the corner, which could have contributed to the Romans coming up with the name "Saray" (alongside Sarai and "Tsaritsyn" further west). "Seljukorda" is Kyzylorda, but Wikipedia said that Seljuk (as in the founder of the Seljuk dynasty) built a fort there at some point, so I had the Indian colonizers name their new city that after lots of Persian settlers moved in.

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Afghanistan got some more cities and had part of its northern border restored to OTL because that part uses a river. I didn't expect to add so many cities to the Indian subcontinent. Karachi has been replaced by the historical ports Debal and Thatta. I forgot about Varanasi when I first started working on the cities. Bihar and Bengal got a lot of cities due to me adding the historical Buddhist universities and pre-Dhaka capitals, which led me to come up with all sorts of new lore. I added the Buddhist universities with the assumption that they became true university towns, the Indian equivalent of Oxford and Cambridge, and eventually started teaching subjects other than Buddhist theology. They also weren't sacked and destroyed by invaders. The historic political and economic centers of Bengal survived too as major centers of commerce and innovation due to being close to the ports on the Ganges delta and the Silk Road routes coming through Burma. It connects very well with our previous discussions on the Bengal Subah. I like to think of early modern Bengal as similar to the Netherlands if not northern England in the late 18th and early 19th centuries. Also, Nepal and Bhutan got quite a lot of cities. Apparently some of Nepal's biggest cities are really close to Kathmandu, so they got squished together on my map.

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And finally, I added many of the old Silk Road towns in western China. Not much to add here. They still would have faded in importance as trade shifted away from inter-Eurasia and towards trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific routes, but the towns remained under first Ghaznavid and then Chinese rule. This is giving me ideas for how the Ghaznavid realm was annexed by China.


I’ll keep the current “Fusang Range” unless I find a better namd.

Interesting, though I figured Dhaka would still exist on account on the Ganges river changing courses. As for those western cities, as for those OTL Russian cities in western Turkestan, would there be Persian names that would work for them since you said you wanted to add more colonial era cities?

Since I went with Pest in TESB, I’ll go with Buda here. I’ll also anglicize Mariupol to Blackfield.

Adding onto this, I'm pretty sure the Danube river flows in between Buda and Pest, so the reworked Iron Curtain border would probably split the two cities between the Reich and UVR. Since I've also bought up extending "Beria"'s term as Grand Posadnik, we could also have the rebellion in Hungary be crushed even more mercilessly with Beria ordering Valentin to completely destroy and wipe out Pest, an action that the other Volost leaders consider too extreme and oust Beria over, which is also contributes to Prauge being left relatively more intact after its rebellion due to the Grand Posadnik being less extreme and reigning in Valentin's brutality.

Also I wonder if Eparch could work as a meritocratic position for each province, while Exarch is the traditional “viceroy” title?

 

[zenphoenix]

Interesting, though I figured Dhaka would still exist on account on the Ganges river changing courses. As for those western cities, as for those OTL Russian cities in western Turkestan, would there be Persian names that would work for them since you said you wanted to add more colonial era cities?

There’s nothing saying Dhaka wouldn’t exist, but I went with the older Bikrampur.

For the western Turkestan cities, I took cities that already had pre-Russia origins or etymologies that could be Persianized. However, their Wikipedia pages don’t have much information. A lot of cities in Turkmenistan and western Kazakhstan don’t have comprehensive history pages, if they have them at all, so I can’t even tell if they were Russian cities or pre-colonial ones.

Adding onto this, I'm pretty sure the Danube river flows in between Buda and Pest, so the reworked Iron Curtain border would probably split the two cities between the Reich and UVR. Since I've also bought up extending "Beria"'s term as Grand Posadnik, we could also have the rebellion in Hungary be crushed even more merclieslessly with Beria ordering Valentin to completely destroy and wipe out Pest, an action that the other Volost leaders consider too extreme and oust Beria over, which is also contributes to Prauge being left relatively more intact after its rebellion due to the Grand Posadnik being less extreme and reigning in Valentin's brutality.

Maybe “Beria” gets overthrown before the razing of Pest is completed, although the city is still devastated. Then future leaders are less brutal towards Prague, although they still are.