Byzantium vs Eastern Roman Empire?

[Aquila SPQR]

As an American, it is fascinating to see millenia old arguments continue on the Internet, it's like the first time I found a post by an Albanian nationalist.

We have romaboos, we have byzaboos, but have you noticed the newest coming out of an anti-Greek ancient Roman nationalist here merely few posts earlier?

 

[pheonicia]

When Theodosius closed the temple of Vesta and banned its cult the eternal fire which was protecting the city was extinguished. Merely few years later Rome was sacked by Visigoths, for the first time in about 800 years.

Old gods gave them a hint, but stupid fanatics were too blind to see it.

Really we should be saying that Rome fell in 380 and the following empire that died in 1453 was it's successor, Christian Rome.

 

[chelvo]

Rome never existed, it was made up by the Etruscans, so everyone disliked the city instead of them. Wake up, sheeple

 

[Aquila SPQR]

A bit more such posts and Johan will lose his divine temper and will work day and night to move the start date forward to 1454.

*Turkish noises intensify*

 

[bokorthedust]

Rome never existed, it was made up by the Etruscans, so everyone disliked the city instead of them. Wake up, sheeple

Wait, I thought it was the continuation of Troy, so Hellenic in its origins and Hellenic to the end

 

[Bawhoppen]

Wait, I thought it was the continuation of Troy, so Hellenic in its origins and Hellenic to the end

If you are truly claiming that Troy was Hellenic, you are going to see a far more contentious thread than the one we already have

 

[bokorthedust]

If you are truly claiming that Troy was Hellenic, you are going to see a far more contentious thread than the one we already have

This is Helen of Troy. Her abduction/affair with Paris led to the whole shebang. What's that if not a Hel(l)enic origin?


At this point I'm obviously trolling, who can take this thread seriously after 77 pages and 77 rehashings of the same arguments?

 

[Lord Lambert]

Really we should be saying that Rome fell in 380 and the following empire that died in 1453 was it's successor, Christian Rome.

Or we could be accurate instead?

 

[pheonicia]

Or we could be accurate instead?

What, accurate to the failing legacy of the og sick man of Europe, nipped away at the heels by vandals, goths, huns, franks, germans and turks? The empire that left a legacy of failure, ineffectiveness, and deceit so rampant that it tore itself apart at the seams?

Or we could recognize it as being effectively a separate entity from the one that built the empire, subdued gaul and Iberia, brought the great powers of the classical world in Egypt, Greece, and Carthage to their banner, built the roads and wonders that would actually stand the test of time.

Rome's legacy is one of growth, empire, and glory; christian Rome has a legacy of weakness, failure , and decrepitude.

 

[Lord Lambert]

TIL someone old and frail is a different person to when theyre growing up in their teens.

 

[pheonicia]

TIL someone old and frail is a different person to when theyre growing up in their teens.

Yeah, one gets sent to juvie and the other to the execution room.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

this thread makes me want to play a two player EU5 campaign, one of which plays a Greek Sicily and the other plays a Aromanian Byzantium.

(seriously, even counted from Constantine I to the 4th crusade, that's still like 870 years, which is really impressive for any empire. That's longer than any Chinese or Persian state.)

 

[The Russian Empire]

When Theodosius closed the temple of Vesta and banned its cult the eternal fire which was protecting the city was extinguished. Merely few years later Rome was sacked by Visigoths, for the first time in about 800 years.

Old gods gave them a hint, but stupid fanatics were too blind to see it.

The Sack of Rome and the pagans' arguments that it was caused by the abandonment of the old ways in part inspired Augustine to write On the City of God Against the Pagans.

Quoting Zosimus:

They resolved to supply the deficiency from the ornaments that were about the statues of the gods. This was in effect only rendering inanimate and inefficacious those images, which had been fixed up, and dedicated to sacred rites and ceremonies, and were decorated with precious attire, for preserving the city in perpetual felicity.

And since every thing then conspired to the ruin of the city, they not only robbed the statues of their ornaments, but also melted down some of them that were made of gold and silver. Among these was that of Valor or Fortitude, which the Romans call Virtus. This being destroyed, all that remained of the Roman valor and intrepidity was totally extinguished; according to the remarks of persons who were skilled in sacred rites and observances.

It's not difficult to imagine why this would be a prudent argument for pagans to make.

 

[A Pink Duck]

Wait, I thought it was the continuation of Troy, so Hellenic in its origins and Hellenic to the end

Everyone knows Troy is actually Hittite. Ergo, Romans are Hittites.

That also puts the Punic wars into a new context as the continuation of the ancestral struggle between the Phoenicians and Hittites by their colonies and refugees.

 

[bokorthedust]

Everyone knows Troy is actually Hittite. Ergo, Romans are Hittites.

That also puts the Punic wars into a new context as the continuation of the ancestral struggle between the Phoenicians and Hittites by their colonies and refugees.

At this point I'm pretty sure we're in multi-layered Battlestar Galactica-esque saga, everyone is a descendant of the 13 tribes of Kobol, and we're all human-cylon hybrids.

All of this has happened before, and all of this will happen again

 

[BOBODOBO]

Rome and the Romans are not merely a citizenship or an identity. Rome is an IDEA of civilization and progress, greatness and virtue, arts and science, a millennia-long desperate resistance to barbarism and heresy!
God/Gods bless Byzantium Empire of the Romans!

This thread and the amount of pages makes me proud of EU5 community.

 

[Kaspar Osraige]

Oh god. HOW is this thread still ongoing with over two thousand replies. Oh god. Whatever,

Wait, I thought it was the continuation of Troy, so Hellenic in its origins and Hellenic to the end

Troy (Wiluša in Hittite, connected with Greek hêlios) was most likely populated by Luwi people, who are an Anatolian speaking (the earliest branch-off from the Indo-European language family) culture, the progenitors of Lycian, Lydian, Carian and a bunch of pre-Greek cultures in southern and western coasts of Anatolia.

 

[RMS Oceanic]

There is a spectrum of "When did Rome fall", ranging from:

"Rome fell when Numa Pompulius became king and added all those religious vows and changed what Romulus had set up"

to

"Rome fell in 1985 when the Third Punic War finally ended by peace treaty and thus the participating entities ceased to exist"

 

[Lele]

True. After the Byzantine Empire was conquered by the Ottomans in 1453 the Roman people weren't all genocided.

Not that hard since Rome was a couple of thousand kilometers far

By the way - if you're Italian then you've probably heard about a guy called Mario Balotelli. Is he Italian, or not?

I hate the guy but he is italian, and an extraordinary typical one

Does that matter? The criteria, in your words is this:

Are you denying those places don't exist or that they aren't from Rome, just like you are?

Another place, it doesn't even have the name of the city -Roma-. Do you think every person with the same names are one and the same individual? Even heard of homonyms?

What about people of Anzio? Are they still Roman as well?

Are people from a place people from a different place? Are Australian Indonesians? Are the citizens of Buenos Aires citizens of Timbuktu? Do you read what you write before hitting post reply?

As an American, it is fascinating to see millenia old arguments continue on the Internet, it's like the first time I found a post by an Albanian nationalist.

Unfortunately we have some people trying to claim the legacy of an empire to make the one they like seems better. Fortunately they are only a very loud minority and the inadequacy of the byzantines was settled in 1204

TIL someone old and frail is a different person to when theyre growing up in their teens.

TIL if you cut some one in half and kill one of the part the other is now the whole person (jk, this branch of argument would be weird to discuss even with you byz-boys)Rome and the Romans are not merely a citizenship or an identity. Rome is an IDEA of civilization and progress, greatness and virtue, arts and science, a millennia-long desperate resistance to barbarism and heresy!

Rome and the Romans are not merely a citizenship or an identity. Rome is an IDEA of civilization and progress, greatness and virtue, arts and science, a millennia-long desperate resistance to barbarism and heresy!
God/Gods bless Byzantium Empire of the Romans!

This thread and the amount of pages makes me proud of EU5 community.

Yes yes very cool. Still wrong tho, Rome is a city, I live here so I know

There is a spectrum of "When did Rome fall", ranging from:

"Rome fell when Numa Pompulius became king and added all those religious vows and changed what Romulus had set up"

to

"Rome fell in 1985 when the Third Punic War finally ended by peace treaty and thus the participating entities ceased to exist"

There is a very niche line of thought that identify the papacy as the successor of the (western) roman empire, arguing that the power displayed by the popes over the catholics (calling the crusades is a very strong exemple) is akin to that of the emperors to their subject. So if you don't mind being very wrong, you have a lot of time and you like arguing in bad faith for fun you could claim the roman empire is still alive and that pope Francesco I is a roman emperor


I have things to do now, see you tomorrow gang!

 

[Lord Lambert]

TIL if you cut some one in half and kill one of the part the other is now the whole person

I mean... yes? Or do you not consider amputees to be people? Bit rude ngl.