Byzantium vs Eastern Roman Empire?

[Lele]

If a Greek person lived in Roman Empire they don't became Roman, they remain Greek. Their children may be Roman maybe.

Finally you admitted that "Greeks" can become Romans, even though you constantly refuse to accept the fact and effect of 212 edict of Caracalla.

I always said that one can be any ethnicity, if the son of two greeks grew up in a roman enviroment it will make him roman. An already greek person doesn't chance ethnicity.

My dad comes from a small village in the south-eastern part of Poland. I was born in central Poland, raised here and spent all my life here. I visit my dad's village every year because I have family there, but I would never consider myself as "of that village". Simply because I don't live there. And it doesn't matter that my dad was born there and spent first 20 or so years of his life there and that his parents spent all their lives there. Residency is not something transmitted by blood, but by keys to your apartment.

You are speaking of citizenship, it's a different concept.

Italian of Polish ancestry

YES! Having polish ancestry is different from being of polish ethnicity.

I'll recap:
1 Ancestry is an indication of the ethnicity or nationality of an individual
2 Nationality is the legal documentation of being part of a country of an individual
3 Ethnicity is the cultural background of an idividual

More often than not the three are very close, you are an ethnic pole with polish ancestry and a polish nationality, but not always. I have a friend who's an ethnic french, with swiss nationality and russian ancestry.

 

[Lele]

it does over the scale of many many generations.

So, people adopted from distant country when they were months old and they never knew are still their unknown ethnicity or the ethnicity of the country? To return to the first question, in your opinion is Mario Balotelli an ethnic italian with gahanian ancestry and italian nationality or an ethnic gahanian with italian nationality? Anyone saying the second is an actual racist

 

[Aquila SPQR]

I always said that one can be any ethnicity, if the son of two greeks grew up in a roman enviroment it will make him roman. An already greek person doesn't chance ethnicity.

Meanwhile Lele, few days ago:

Thanks, the greeks are not romans

It doesn't, that's the same reason why a greek born in Athens can't be a roman.

Like I said - make up your mind because nothing you write make any sense.

You are speaking of citizenship, it's a different concept.

You being from Rome (therefore Roman) is literally the same as my dad coming from that village (therefore "of that village"). I'm not "of that village" because I am "of some other village". Just as you are "Roman" as long as you live in Rome. Sigh...

YES! Having polish ancestry is different from being of polish ethnicity.

No.

There are literally ethnic Polish Americans. They are ethnically Polish strictly because they have Polish ancestry.

Polish Americans - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

3 Ethnicity is the cultural background of an idividual

It would make all things easier if you realized this is your mistake.

 

[IlikeTrains]

Like I said - make up your mind because nothing you write make any sense.

For @Lele a Roman enviroment = the city of Rome and nothing else. Which still makes no sense, even in the times of the late Republic. Romans settled throughout the empire and romanized the local populations.

 

[Lele]

Like I said - make up your mind because nothing you write make any sense.

The greeks are not romans, their children may became romans if they grow roman. Everyone's children can be any ethnicity in a particular context

There are literally ethnic Polish Americans. They are ethnically Polish strictly because they have Polish ancestry

"Polish Americans (Polish: Polonia amerykańska) are Americans who either have total or partial Polish ancestry" from your link. I stand correct.

It would make all things easier if you realized this is your mistake.

You are the one using some made up concept, I'm using the dictionary definition of ethnicity:
(eth-NIH-sih-tee) A term that refers to the social and cultural characteristics, backgrounds, or experiences shared by a group of people. These include language, religion, beliefs, values, and behaviors that are often handed down from one generation to the next.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

The greeks are not romans, their children may became romans if they grow roman. Everyone's children can be any ethnicity in a particular context

And since the Greeks were granted Roman citizenship in 212 by Caracalla they (or their children, doesn't matter) "grew Roman". Therefore Eastern Roman Empire was inhabited by Romans therefore "Byzantines" were "Romans" and "Byzantine Empire" was "Roman Empire". Nice that you admit it.

"Polish Americans (Polish: Polonia amerykańska) are Americans who either have total or partial Polish ancestry" from your link. I stand correct.

It literally says that they must have either total or partial Polish ancestry while you said that "Having polish ancestry is different from being of polish ethnicity"

You make no sense.

Ok, that's enough. I see no point in continuing with this particular topic. Fortunately you agreed that "children of Greeks who were granted Roman citizenship and grew in the Roman Empire" are Romans, therefore you confirmed that "Byzantines" are "Romans". Thank you.

 

[Lele]

For @Lele a Roman enviroment = the city of Rome and nothing else. Which still makes no sense. Romans settled throughout the empire and romanized the local populations.

Yes, people got romanized during the roman republic and empire, there were romans born in palestine and in britannia. But the empire fell and those places developed their own ethnicity, the cultural and ethnic influence of the romans shrinked and as now only the people of Rome still claim to be *ethnic* roman. The greeks in particular (because I know Aquila SPQR will quote me) during the byzantine empire claimed to be roman by citizenship but of greek culture. For exemple the iberians and french (as ethnicities) are directly descended of the roman ethnicity but they splinterd into their own thing for various reasons but untill something like the fifth century people living there could still be roman; but exactly as Rome romanized the people of the empire the new kingdoms made them of their ethnicity.

 

[Lele]

And since the Greeks were granted Roman citizenship in 212 by Caracalla they (or their children, doesn't matter) "grew Roman". Therefore Eastern Roman Empire was inhabited by Romans therefore "Byzantines" were "Romans" and "Byzantine Empire" was "Roman Empire". Nice that you admit it.

That's citizenship

It literally says that they must have either total or partial Polish ancestry while you said that "Having polish ancestry is different from being of polish ethnicity"

Yes, the wiki article is making that distinction. The same I am trying to explain to you

Ok, that's enough.

No one is forcing you to be racist on the internet

Fortunately you agreed that "children of Greeks who were granted Roman citizenship and grew in the Roman Empire" are Romans, therefore you confirmed that "Byzantines" are "Romans"

No, it's literally not what I said. The byzantines were greeks, and that's not only my opinion but the academic consensus. You can think what you want but please don't try to put wrong opinions in my mouth

 

[Lord Lambert]

So, people adopted from distant country when they were months old and they never knew are still their unknown ethnicity or the ethnicity of the country?

The former, of course.

in your opinion is Mario Balotelli an ethnic italian with gahanian ancestry and italian nationality or an ethnic gahanian with italian nationality?

The latter, of course

Anyone saying the second is an actual racist

No, they are not. They are merely correct.

 

[Lele]

The former, of course.

The latter, of course

No, they are not. They are merely correct.

Hilariously wrong as always.
You are speaking about race, which is a different concept. Educate yourself if you don't want to be called racist.

 

[Lord Lambert]

Hilariously wrong as always

This is something that accurately describes every single comment you have made thus far.

 

[Lele]

This is something that accurately describes every single comment you have made thus far.

Said by a racist I can only take it as a medal of honor. You should stop being racist man

 

[IlikeTrains]

Yes, people got romanized during the roman republic and empire, there were romans born in palestine and in britannia. But the empire fell and those places developed their own ethnicity, the cultural and ethnic influence of the romans shrinked and as now only the people of Rome still claim to be *ethnic* roman. The greeks in particular (because I know Aquila SPQR will quote me) during the byzantine empire claimed to be roman by citizenship but of greek culture. For exemple the iberians and french (as ethnicities) are directly descended of the roman ethnicity but they splinterd into their own thing for various reasons but untill something like the fifth century people living there could still be roman; but exactly as Rome romanized the people of the empire the new kingdoms made them of their ethnicity.

Constantine XI:

Present your shield, swords, arrows, and spears to them, imagining that you are a hunting party after wild boars, so that the impious may learn that they are dealing not with dumb animals but with their lords and masters, the descendants of the Greeks and the Romans.

 

[Lele]

Constantine XI:

Yes and? He could have claimed to be the descendent of the Yuan and it would have not made a difference. A man saying something doesn't make it true

 

[Lord Lambert]

Yeah I'm done. I'm not interested in trying to change the mind of someone that will resort to accusations of racism to cover for their own ignorance.

 

[IlikeTrains]

Said by a racist I can only take it as a medal of honor. You should stop being racist man

If you have to resort to petty racism accusations, perhaps it's time to recognize you've lost the discussion.

 

[IlikeTrains]

Yes and? He could have claimed to be the descendent of the Yuan and it would have not made a difference. A man saying something doesn't make it true

So you're saying that Constantine XI didn't know his own ethnicity? That's pretty racist.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

That's citizenship

Just as Balotelli, a Ghanaian, became Italian after receiving citizenship - those "Greeks" became Romans after receiving citizenship. Works today, worked back then the same way.

No one is forcing you to be racist on the internet

No one is forcing you to write nonsense, you simply choose to do it yourself.

No, it's literally not what I said. The byzantines were greeks, and that's not only my opinion but the academic consensus. You can think what you want but please don't try to put wrong opinions in my mouth

The "Byzantines" were Romans of Greek ancestry. Just as Balotelli is an Italian of Ghanaian ancestry. Balotelli's kids (I don't know if he has any, but let's assume he has) will be 100% Italian from the moment of ther birth. Just as the kids of those Roman citizens of Greek ancestry became Romans.

By the way it's funny how everyone focuses on "Greeks" when it comes to "Byzantines" while in reality it was also a huge mix of different ethnicities from Serbians/Bulgarians to Egyptians/Syrians/Armenians and so on.

 

[Lele]

So you're saying that Constantine XI didn't know his own ethnicity? That's pretty racist.

I am roman, so I can say it. He was not, we roman people don't recognize him as one of us.

 

[IlikeTrains]

I am roman, so I can say it. He was not, we roman people don't recognize him as one of us.

Works both ways. The Roman emperor Constantine XI, descendant of real Romans, successor of Augustus, wouldn't recognize you as a Roman, but merely a Latin.