Byzantium vs Eastern Roman Empire?

[Koopatin]

no true scotsman

 

[Lele]

Just as Balotelli, a Ghanaian, became Italian after receiving citizenship - those "Greeks" became Romans after receiving citizenship. Works today, worked back then the same way.

That's citizenship

No one is forcing you to write nonsense, you simply choose to do it yourself.

You are still here,you are still wrong

The "Byzantines" were Romans of Greek ancestry. Just as Balotelli is an Italian of Ghanaian ancestry. Balotelli's kids (I don't know if he has any, but let's assume he has) will be 100% Italian from the moment of ther birth. Just as the kids of those Roman citizens of Greek ancestry became Romans.

They had roman citizenship given by a non-roman entity, basically worthless. Balotelli's kids could be any ethnicity, he is in turkey right now iirc and maybe if he has children there they will be maybe turk

By the way it's funny how everyone focuses on "Greeks" when it comes to "Byzantines" while in reality it was also a huge mix of different ethnicities from Serbians/Bulgarians to Egyptians/Syrians/Armenians and so on.

Because citing every ethnicity every time is long and compiling the list of every ethnicity living under Byzantium at every given time is time-consuming and pointless. The Serbians/Bulgarians/Egyptians/Syrians/Armenians were their ethnicity, as the Greeks were; it didn't change because some guy (a very important one for the times, but still just a guy) gave them a citizenship. The Basque have spanish or french cityzenship but they are still basque

 

[Lele]

Works both ways. The Roman emperor Constantine XI, descendant of real Romans, successor of Augustus, wouldn't recognize you as a Roman, but merely a Latin.

Ah yes, a greek calling me latin to say that I'm not roman. That the most ignorant thing I ever read. Of course he would call me latin, the romans were and still are latin!

 

[IlikeTrains]

Ah yes, a greek calling me latin to say that I'm not roman.

Ah yes, a Latin calling me Greek to say that I'm not Roman.

 

[bokorthedust]

A man saying something doesn't make it true

I think you should reflect on this, it's truly a great insight.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

I am roman, so I can say it. He was not, we roman people don't recognize him as one of us.

I'm afraid modern Romans have no power to determine who was and who wasn't Roman few centuries earlier. Your opinion simply doesn't matter at all.

That's citizenship

I already explained what that means and what is the effect of gaining citizenship.

They had roman citizenship given by a non-roman entity, basically worthless.

It was literally given by a Roman emperor. You call Roman emperor Caracalla a "non-Roman entity"? That's bonkers, even for you.

 

[Lele]

Ah yes, a Latin calling me Greek to say that I'm not Roman.

Yes. That's exactly the point! Even your greek emperor Constantine XI made the distinction between greeks and romans as you cited

 

[IlikeTrains]

Yes. That's exactly the point! Even your greek emperor Constantine XI made the distinction between greeks and romans as you cited

The "byzantine" Romans referred to Greeks when talking about their Hellenistic age ancestors, Hellenes. But they were descendants of both the Romans and the Hellenistic era Greeks, as Constantine XI said.

 

[Lele]

It was literally given by a Roman emperor. You call Roman emperor Caracalla a "non-Roman entity"? That's bonkers, even for you.

He died in 217 AC, I doubt he give citizenship to anyone past that point. Or are we speaking of necromancy? You are delirious

Your opinion simply doesn't matter at all.

Thanks for the racist remarks, I didnt miss them

 

[Lele]

The "byzantine" Romans referred to Greeks when talking about their Hellenistic age ancestors, Hellenes. But they were descendants of both the Romans and the Hellenistic era Greeks, as Constantine XI said.

Yes, two distinct ethnicity as you and Constantine XI said. He was greek as we know, and not roman as those are two distinct things

 

[IlikeTrains]

He died in 217 AC, I doubt he give citizenship to anyone past that point

Roman (imperial) citizenship was inheritable. A real Roman, which you claim to be, should know that!

 

[Aquila SPQR]

He died in 217 AC, I doubt he give citizenship to anyone past that point. Or are we speaking of necromancy? You are delirious

But... that's not how it works (facepalm). Citizenship is passed down "by blood". The law of jus sanguinis (the one used in Italy to this day and in many other countries) comes from Roman times. Once granted it can only be revoked. It wasn't revoked, so it was still in effect until the fall of Constantinopolis in 1453.

Seriously now, you have to be a troll. I don't believe you wrote that thing about necromancy seriously. As if you thought that... that... every emperor had to confirm the citizenship of every newborn baby with a separate edict.

Thanks for the racist remarks, I didnt miss them

What's racist in saying that opinion of modern people has literally no effect on the reality of ancient/medieval era? It doesn't matter at all whether you think someone was or wasn't a Roman. You can believe with all your heart that Nicolaus Copernicus was Japanese (who can stop you if you so desire?) , but that, surprisingly, won't make him Japanese. It won't even make it any more likely that he maybe was Japanese. Simply because your opinion has literally no power here to change the past.

 

[Lele]

Roman (imperial) citizenship was inheritable. A real Roman, which you claim to be, should know that!

So are almost every western european people roman citizens? Or this inherited citizenship at some point just stopped?

 

[Aquila SPQR]

So are almost every western european people roman citizens? Or this inherited citizenship at some point just stopped?

Since you can't be a citizen of a state that does not exist then yes - the last Roman citizens ceased to be Roman citizens in 1453.

Almost every european person can however still trace their ancestry back to Roman citizens, since that's what genetic/genealogy studies show.

 

[Lele]

But... that's not how it works (facepalm). Citizenship is passed down "by blood". The law of jus sanguinis (the one used in Italy to this day and in many other countries) comes from Roman times. Once granted it can only be revoked. It wasn't revoked, so it was still in effect until the fall of Constantinopolis in 1453.

Seriously now, you have to be a troll. I don't believe you wrote that thing about necromancy seriously. As if you thought that... that... every emperor had to confirm the citizenship of every newborn baby with a separate edict.



What's racist in saying that opinion of modern people has literally no effect on the reality of ancient/medieval era? It doesn't matter at all whether you think someone was or wasn't a Roman. You can believe with all your heart that Nicolaus Copernicus was Japanese (who can stop you if you so desire?) , but that, surprisingly, won't make him Japanese. It won't even make it any more likely that he maybe was Japanese. Simply because your opinion has literally no power here to change the past.

Man, your racist rant are so out of the world delirious that I have stopped trying to make sense of it.
If the Caracalla grants were still in effect during the byz empire, descendent of roman citizens born outside the byz empire were roman citizens?

For exemple a man born in Marsille in 1426 whose all ancestor lived here since the roman empire and that were granted citizenship because of Caracalla. Was it roman or not?


You are trolling too hard and the logic fallacies are too evident

 

[Lele]

Since you can't be a citizen of a state that does not exist then yes - the last Roman citizens ceased to be Roman citizens in 1453.

Are you sure? Mehmed II claimed to be Emperor of the romans, and he called some of his subject romans...
It's the same old logic error, you are speaking of citizenship as if it's the same as ethnicity

 

[Superdark33]

Yes, people got romanized during the roman republic and empire, there were romans born in palestine and in britannia. But the empire fell and those places developed their own ethnicity, the cultural and ethnic influence of the romans shrinked and as now only the people of Rome still claim to be *ethnic* roman. The greeks in particular (because I know Aquila SPQR will quote me) during the byzantine empire claimed to be roman by citizenship but of greek culture. For exemple the iberians and french (as ethnicities) are directly descended of the roman ethnicity but they splinterd into their own thing for various reasons but untill something like the fifth century people living there could still be roman; but exactly as Rome romanized the people of the empire the new kingdoms made them of their ethnicity.

Your mistake here is talking about People and Culture instead of direct dynasties of pure pureness that have legitimacy and crowns and thus a strong claim over Being The Not Barbarians in some insipid Byzantium larping.

There is absolutely no "shame" in being Byzantium, Greece, instead of "Rome", just as Italian cultures arent any lesser for existing after the Roman Empire fell, despite what various northern europeans who want to be the authorities on Rome seem to think.

 

[Aquila SPQR]

Man, your racist rant are so out of the world delirious that I have stopped trying to make sense of it.

I suggest looking up what "racist" mean in a dictionary, maybe that's why you continue to use that term in a wrong way.

If the Caracalla grants were still in effect during the byz empire, descendent of roman citizens born outside the byz empire were roman citizens?

For exemple a man born in Marsille in 1426 whose all ancestor lived here since the roman empire and that were granted citizenship because of Caracalla. Was it roman or not?

I'm no expert on Roman law, but I'd say that yes - they would. But here we have to go back to my earlier posts where I specifically pointed out that people have to have knowledge of their ancestry and/or decide to keep that ancestry as their primary one. Massilia in 1426 was already about 1000 years under "non-Roman" rule. That's a huge amount of time. At that time people who lived there, even if they had Roman ancestry, most likely considered themselves as someone else. That would make them for example "French with Roman ancestry". Their own opinion on who they are had no effect on who their ancestors were after all.

Just as Mario Balotelli's great-grandkids will think of themselves as of pure Italians (becaue they will be) even though their great-great-grandparents were Ghanaian. And that's nothing wrong, surprising or strange.

And basically that's why some people in the reborn Greece still considered themselves Romans in the early XX century.

Are you sure? Mehmed II claimed to be Emperor of the romans, and he called some of his subject romans...

Because they were Romans, but not "Roman citizens".

There is no Austria-Hungary anymore, so there are no citizens of "Austria-Hungary", but there are still Austrians and Hungarians around the last time I checked.

It's the same old logic error, you are speaking of citizenship as if it's the same as ethnicity

Am I now? I've just literally said that Romans under Ottoman rule were still ethnically Romans (descendants of Romans), but they were not Roman citizens anymore (because there was no Roman Empire anymore). How did you come to such conclusion eludes me. Probably because nothing you write makes any sense.

There is absolutely no "shame" in being Byzantium, Greece, instead of "Rome", just as Italian cultures arent any lesser for existing after the Roman Empire fell, despite what various northern europeans who want to be the authorities on Rome seem to think.

Shame? No. But it took the people of Italia under new Germanic rulers some time to catch up with ancient Romans technologically, culturally and economically.

 

[Superdark33]

Shame? No. But it took the people of Italia under new Germanic rulers some time to catch up with ancient Romans technologically, culturally and economically.

Economically maybe, as Italy had to work with the infrastructure and wealth it already had instead of relying on the plunder from an entire roman empire, but they were no slouches: there were many rich and wealthy merchant republics and small kingdoms in italy who made it the richest region in Europe.

Technologically? Only if you ignore the advances made during the middle ages (and thus believe in "the dark ages" myth).

Culturally? Thats where the "Shame" is, if you see anything not part of the roman empire as Lesser or Bad, youd be ignorant of the many advances and successes of Italy in that regard, not even in just the richer north!
The "Germanic" kingdom of Naples, as formed by the Normans, created a beautiful and succesful multicultural country with works of art and scholarship, not to mention they beat the "Roman" Byzantine empire in wars a few times!


And yes, in Rome the city itself there were still a lot of people who stayed there, and it was the seat of power of the Catholic Church using not just religious ties, but also the connections of the old roman empire to leverage influence across the conteinent.

 

[Lele]

Shame? No. But it took the people of Italia under new Germanic rulers some time to catch up with ancient Romans technologically, culturally and economically.

This is litterally and factually wrong, you are perpetuing the myth of the dark age. Italy was fine during that time, the only actual decline was in population, as the wars were now fought by the people of the peninsula and not by someone from the provincies.

Romans under Ottoman rule were still ethnically Romans (descendants of Romans),

So, why do you consider them roman (while they claimed to be ethnic greeks!) while I (as a descent of romans) am not? Logic fallacies as always

pure Italians

Tell me you're racist without telling me you're racist. Man did you lern anthropology reading some old nazi book?

I'm no expert on Roman law, but I'd say that yes - they would. But here we have to go back to my earlier posts where I specifically pointed out that people have to have knowledge of their ancestry and/or decide to keep that ancestry as their primary one. Massilia in 1426 was already about 1000 years under "non-Roman" rule. That's a huge amount of time. At that time people who lived there, even if they had Roman ancestry, most likely considered themselves as someone else.

So. I have without doubts a ton of ancestor who were roman citizens (before and after Caracalla). The people of Rome and I haven't forgotten what we are, (there were multiple attempts to restore a roman republic in the city, if you want to educate yourself you should read abouut the second roman republic of 1849-1850), most of the people born and raised here claim to be roman. I am roman, I haven't forgotten my ancestry.

Btw stop the racist rant please