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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #133 - British Indian Caste System and Social Hierarchies

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Hello and happy Thursday! Welcome to the first narrative design dev diary! Today we will be going through the British Indian Caste System and Social Hierarchies, hosted by Em. But first a word from Shubham!




Hey Everyone, my name is Shubham. I am a narrative designer and history nerd from India, and I had the pleasure of working on the upcoming Pivot of Empire immersion pack! There are a lot of cool new systems, Journal Entries, events, and art coming your way, and honestly, I am very excited by all of them. But as dev diaries can’t be book-length, I will try to focus on some of the really big points.

The first and foremost is the Caste System, which is accompanied by the discrimination rework and also introduces social hierarchies. Em will get into this later, but I’ll focus on the history of the subject and what we tried to capture with its implementation.

You will see that the Caste System is labeled the British Indian Caste System in the game. This is because the modern understanding of Caste, within and without India, is very much a colonial creation.

Before the Indian subcontinent was consolidated under British Colonial rule, the Hindu identity was fragmented. So, while casteism was very much practiced then, it had greater variance and malleability. It was also not legally enforced to the same extent across the nation. Partly because there was no singular power that could enforce it but partly because different places had different beliefs around its relevance. However, after colonization, in an effort to streamline administration, the British conducted a census that tried to give a fixed value to caste. As this process happened, caste became codified and simplified. It became based solely on the Varna system and no longer allowed for any change in status. The Varna system recognizes only four castes and a fifth ‘outcaste.’ It also gives social roles to each tier.

The Brahmins are ‘meant’ to be teachers and priests. The Kshatriyas are warriors and leaders. The Vaishyas are merchants and traders. The Shudras are peasants. The outcastes are offered no name and are simply considered untouchable. The Portuguese later used the term Dalit to describe them, and that became their caste name.

However, as understood by the British, this Varna system ignored Jati, which is also a part of caste. Jati ranges in the hundreds, if not thousands. This resulted in a rigid system that deepened social divides and made social mobility nearly impossible. A lot of effort was made to capture this complex reality in-game.

We also considered using different labels for the tiers in the caste system. As Dalits are the most oppressed by this system, we thought to make it a two-tier system consisting of ‘Savarna and Avarna’ (those belonging to Varna Castes and those outside it). However, this erased the oppression faced by Shudras by other higher castes. Not to mention the role every tier of caste played in oppressing those immediately ‘beneath’ them.

We wanted to capture some of the nuance and complexity of the Hindu identities in that time period, as well as the oppressive, contradictory, and self-cannibalizing nature of the caste system.

The other topic that I want to discuss is the Indian independence movement. The Indian Independence movement had many leaders and many different factions. Furthermore, nearly all of them didn’t initially demand independence.

At first, as the exploitation of resources and people continued under British Raj, discontent pushed those with the privilege (money, land, education) to demand better laws and governance. Many leaders at this time were happy to let the British Empire rule so long as they were allowed to govern themselves with more dignity. It was only when these efforts repeatedly failed that the people were radicalized into starting a revolution. The game captures this through the journal entries around Home Rule and the Indian Independence.

But as you will see, many factions affect your ability to complete either Journal Entry. This is because they were not always aligned, even when various leaders agreed that independence was the only way forward. Indeed, the divisions sowed by the British and resultant from the complex history of the subcontinent made it so that factions were fighting each other just as much as they were fighting the British.

Three figures really capture this tension: Muhammad Ali Jinnah, leader of the Muslim League and the founding father of Pakistan; Mohandas Gandhi, key leader of the Indian National Congress and the founding father of India; and Periyar, founder of the self-respect movement and leader of the Dravidian movement.

Gandhi initially believed that to be truly free, India needed to return to its Hindu roots and reject all British imposition. This scared Jinnah, who thought that this line of thinking would be terrible for India’s Muslim minority. Despite being quite secular himself, Jinnah would often find himself campaigning for the needs of Muslims lest Gandhi and the rest of the INC forget about them. This often put the two parties and the two leaders at loggerheads, a matter that would eventually result in the partition.

If returning to Hindu roots upset Jinnah, it also worried people like Periyar. He had initially been part of the INC. As a low-caste man, he feared the INC leading India as most of the leadership was high-caste and often callous towards the needs of the lower-caste people. Thus, Periyar and Jinnah usually tried to negotiate, argue, and even cooperate with the British even if it weakened Gandhi and the INC’s stance. To Jinnah and Periyar, it was an opportunity to be heard.

Historically, Gandhi did become more cognizant of the needs of the lower caste and Muslim people. But as he and the INC also had to earn the support of the staunch conservative Hindus, such as the Hindu Mahasabha, it was always a compromised position. If you try to build an independent India in the game, you will hopefully feel how the game pushes and pulls at you.

Okay, lastly, I want to talk about the Sikh Empire. The Sikh Empire was in a precarious position in 1836. They have the Afghans on one side and the British to the south. Their leader, Ranjit Singh, established the first Sikh Empire but with one too many heirs. When he passes away, a series of successions occur that are violent and sometimes comical. Integrating the narrative of the Sikh Empire was a lot of fun as often it felt like writing a season of Game of Thrones. I hope you have a good time going through these events, as they are as ridiculous as they are compelling.




Hello! I’m Em, one of the game designers on Victoria 3 that specializes in narrative. This is my first dev diary and I’m excited to share a bit more about what to expect with 1.8 and Pivot of Empire! Today I'll primarily be walking you through a couple things we’ve been working on, namely Social Hierarchies, the British Indian Caste System, and a new law group associated with the Caste System.

The British Indian Caste System has been designed alongside the Cultural and Religious Acceptance Rework that Lino spoke about a few weeks back. To represent this, we're introducing mechanics for Social Hierarchies and Social Classes to the game. The British Indian Caste System is a Social Hierarchy that makes use of Social Classes in order to represent its effects.

DD133_01.png

screenshot of Social Hierarchy concept

DD133_02.png

screenshot of Social Class concept

Previously, Pops were distributed by Profession into the Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata. This was fairly rigid, and meant that the previous system couldn't enable culture or country-specific Strata. Academics could only ever be in the Middle Strata. Clerks could only ever be in the Lower Strata. Social Hierarchies are being introduced to address some of that previous one-dimensionality where the social ranking of Professions might differ in different parts of the world and allow for the implementation of the British Indian Caste System.

To understand a little better, let’s take a look at what this has looked like. Here is how the distribution of Pops by Profession across Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata has appeared previously:
DD133_03.png

screenshot of overview tab in Population panel where you can see the Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata

Clerks, Laborers, Machinists, Peasants, Servicemen, and Slaves are Lower Strata. Academics, Bureaucrats, Clergymen, Engineers, Farmers, Officers, and Shopkeepers are Middle Strata. Aristocrats and Capitalists are Upper Strata.

Pops are still distributed as they have been by Profession above. But now, in the Base Hierarchy they will be distributed into the Lower, Middle, and Upper Classes:
DD133_04.png

screenshot of Classes tab in Society panel where you can see Lower Class, Middle Class, Upper Class are Social Classes and are part of a Social Hierarchy called the Base Hierarchy

Pops part of the Base Hierarchy are assigned a Social Class based on their Professions as they had been before. Every Pop has a Social Class, and that Social Class belongs to a Strata. Social Classes can be defined based on a combination of pop type, primary culture, and/or religion. Social Class information will appear in the Society panel. Social Hierarchies are intended to affect all kinds of Pops, with moddability in mind, and can be linked to a law group.

This brings us to the British Indian Caste System. Since Shubham’s given a bit of the historical and cultural context, I'll dive in with what this looks like in the game!

DD133_05.png

screenshot of Classes tab in Society panel for a country that has the British Indian Caste System where Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras, and Dalits are Social Classes

The British Indian Caste System recategorizes a Pops’ Strata differently from the Base Hierarchy. The British Indian Caste System specifically encompasses all Pops that are Hindu and have the South Asian Heritage cultural trait. Other Pops that are not Hindu and do not have the South Asian Heritage cultural trait will default to the existing Lower, Middle, and Upper Social Classes of the Base Hierarchy.

So where is the British Indian Caste System found? How is it set? The Caste System will be set from game start on the British East India Company and the Princely States.

Otherwise, it will appear with the following criteria:
  • A country is a subject of Great Britain
  • A country’s primary culture has the South Asian Heritage cultural trait
  • More than fifty percent of the population is Hindu.

If the percentage of Pops in a country with the British Indian Caste System drops to ten percent or below, the Caste System disappears and is fully replaced with the Base Hierarchy.
DD133_06.png

screenshot of Social Hierarchy activated

Tied to the Caste System is the Caste Hegemony Law Group that will appear under Power Structure. This law group is specific to the British Indian Caste System. As such, the law group only appears and applies to countries where the British Indian Caste System is active. This will be the first time a law group is regional or culturally specific.

DD133_07.png

screenshot of Power Structure laws

There are four laws in the Caste Hegemony law group: Caste System Enforced, Caste System Codified, Caste System Not Enforced, and Affirmative Action. The new laws affect the flow of social mobility via Qualification Gain, Acceptance, and/or Education Access. Where the Caste System Enforced and Caste System Codified laws are more a reflection of 19th century British Raj, the Affirmative Action law is designed to be a reflection of early days of Reservation laws in the early 20th century.

All countries that start with the Caste System or gain it from Pop criteria will activate with Caste Not Enforced.

DD133_08.png

WIP screenshot of Caste Hegemony Law Group, list of effects subject to change

Effects in this law group primarily only apply to Pops that are part of the Caste System. For example in the WIP screenshot above, the Upper Strata for Pops in the Caste System, the Brahmins, have a minimum Acceptance value of 80. This minimum Acceptance value does not apply across the board to all Upper Strata Pops, such as Capitalists and Aristocrats that are not in the Caste System. It will only apply to Brahmins.

DD133_09.png

WIP screenshot of Acceptance Status for a Pop that are Brahmins

Other laws in the law group will have more Acceptance and Qualification Growth effects that are specifically applied to Pops in the Caste System. Here is the Caste System Codified law as an example of other types of effects you can expect–

DD133_10.png

WIP screenshot of Caste System Codified effects, subject to change. We’re actively working on improving readability and balancing the effects of these laws.

Here, there are effects on Landowners political strength and a Bureaucracy Population Cost Multiplier, as well as effects on Acceptance and Qualification Growth. Under the Caste System Codified law, Qualification Growth will be vastly restricted between castes, limiting the mobility between classes to varying degrees depending on the law in effect.

DD133_11.png

WIP screenshot of Acceptance Status for a Pop that are Shudras

If you are playing as the British East India Company and the British Raj forms via the Indian Uprising Journal Entry, Caste System Codified will be activated if Caste System Enforced or Caste System Codified isn’t already part of your laws.

The British Indian Caste System and the Caste Hegemony Law Group (as well as the Indian Uprising Journal Entry rework) will be free as part of the 1.8 update!

That is all for today, however, we said in the Pivot of Empire diary on Tuesday that we would have two dev diaries this week. We actually are having three! So tune in tomorrow for some more about maps, culture and more by Hansi!
 
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I feel like the social hierarchy system would be perfect for Soviet Russia - having the Tsarist social hierarchy turned literally ‘upside down’ with the workers and peasants at the top and bourgeoisie at the bottom!
 
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View attachment 1206370

Hello and happy Thursday! Welcome to the first narrative design dev diary! Today we will be going through the British Indian Caste System and Social Hierarchies, hosted by Em. But first a word from Shubham!




Hey Everyone, my name is Shubham. I am a narrative designer and history nerd from India, and I had the pleasure of working on the upcoming Pivot of Empire immersion pack! There are a lot of cool new systems, Journal Entries, events, and art coming your way, and honestly, I am very excited by all of them. But as dev diaries can’t be book-length, I will try to focus on some of the really big points.

The first and foremost is the Caste System, which is accompanied by the discrimination rework and also introduces social hierarchies. Em will get into this later, but I’ll focus on the history of the subject and what we tried to capture with its implementation.

You will see that the Caste System is labeled the British Indian Caste System in the game. This is because the modern understanding of Caste, within and without India, is very much a colonial creation.

Before the Indian subcontinent was consolidated under British Colonial rule, the Hindu identity was fragmented. So, while casteism was very much practiced then, it had greater variance and malleability. It was also not legally enforced to the same extent across the nation. Partly because there was no singular power that could enforce it but partly because different places had different beliefs around its relevance. However, after colonization, in an effort to streamline administration, the British conducted a census that tried to give a fixed value to caste. As this process happened, caste became codified and simplified. It became based solely on the Varna system and no longer allowed for any change in status. The Varna system recognizes only four castes and a fifth ‘outcaste.’ It also gives social roles to each tier.

The Brahmins are ‘meant’ to be teachers and priests. The Kshatriyas are warriors and leaders. The Vaishyas are merchants and traders. The Shudras are peasants. The outcastes are offered no name and are simply considered untouchable. The Portuguese later used the term Dalit to describe them, and that became their caste name.

However, as understood by the British, this Varna system ignored Jati, which is also a part of caste. Jati ranges in the hundreds, if not thousands. This resulted in a rigid system that deepened social divides and made social mobility nearly impossible. A lot of effort was made to capture this complex reality in-game.

We also considered using different labels for the tiers in the caste system. As Dalits are the most oppressed by this system, we thought to make it a two-tier system consisting of ‘Savarna and Avarna’ (those belonging to Varna Castes and those outside it). However, this erased the oppression faced by Shudras by other higher castes. Not to mention the role every tier of caste played in oppressing those immediately ‘beneath’ them.

We wanted to capture some of the nuance and complexity of the Hindu identities in that time period, as well as the oppressive, contradictory, and self-cannibalizing nature of the caste system.

The other topic that I want to discuss is the Indian independence movement. The Indian Independence movement had many leaders and many different factions. Furthermore, nearly all of them didn’t initially demand independence.

At first, as the exploitation of resources and people continued under British Raj, discontent pushed those with the privilege (money, land, education) to demand better laws and governance. Many leaders at this time were happy to let the British Empire rule so long as they were allowed to govern themselves with more dignity. It was only when these efforts repeatedly failed that the people were radicalized into starting a revolution. The game captures this through the journal entries around Home Rule and the Indian Independence.

But as you will see, many factions affect your ability to complete either Journal Entry. This is because they were not always aligned, even when various leaders agreed that independence was the only way forward. Indeed, the divisions sowed by the British and resultant from the complex history of the subcontinent made it so that factions were fighting each other just as much as they were fighting the British.

Three figures really capture this tension: Muhammad Ali Jinnah, leader of the Muslim League and the founding father of Pakistan; Mohandas Gandhi, key leader of the Indian National Congress and the founding father of India; and Periyar, founder of the self-respect movement and leader of the Dravidian movement.

Gandhi initially believed that to be truly free, India needed to return to its Hindu roots and reject all British imposition. This scared Jinnah, who thought that this line of thinking would be terrible for India’s Muslim minority. Despite being quite secular himself, Jinnah would often find himself campaigning for the needs of Muslims lest Gandhi and the rest of the INC forget about them. This often put the two parties and the two leaders at loggerheads, a matter that would eventually result in the partition.

If returning to Hindu roots upset Jinnah, it also worried people like Periyar. He had initially been part of the INC. As a low-caste man, he feared the INC leading India as most of the leadership was high-caste and often callous towards the needs of the lower-caste people. Thus, Periyar and Jinnah usually tried to negotiate, argue, and even cooperate with the British even if it weakened Gandhi and the INC’s stance. To Jinnah and Periyar, it was an opportunity to be heard.

Historically, Gandhi did become more cognizant of the needs of the lower caste and Muslim people. But as he and the INC also had to earn the support of the staunch conservative Hindus, such as the Hindu Mahasabha, it was always a compromised position. If you try to build an independent India in the game, you will hopefully feel how the game pushes and pulls at you.

Okay, lastly, I want to talk about the Sikh Empire. The Sikh Empire was in a precarious position in 1836. They have the Afghans on one side and the British to the south. Their leader, Ranjit Singh, established the first Sikh Empire but with one too many heirs. When he passes away, a series of successions occur that are violent and sometimes comical. Integrating the narrative of the Sikh Empire was a lot of fun as often it felt like writing a season of Game of Thrones. I hope you have a good time going through these events, as they are as ridiculous as they are compelling.




Hello! I’m Em, one of the game designers on Victoria 3 that specializes in narrative. This is my first dev diary and I’m excited to share a bit more about what to expect with 1.8 and Pivot of Empire! Today I'll primarily be walking you through a couple things we’ve been working on, namely Social Hierarchies, the British Indian Caste System, and a new law group associated with the Caste System.

The British Indian Caste System has been designed alongside the Cultural and Religious Acceptance Rework that Lino spoke about a few weeks back. To represent this, we're introducing mechanics for Social Hierarchies and Social Classes to the game. The British Indian Caste System is a Social Hierarchy that makes use of Social Classes in order to represent its effects.

View attachment 1206371
screenshot of Social Hierarchy concept

View attachment 1206372
screenshot of Social Class concept

Previously, Pops were distributed by Profession into the Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata. This was fairly rigid, and meant that the previous system couldn't enable culture or country-specific Strata. Academics could only ever be in the Middle Strata. Clerks could only ever be in the Lower Strata. Social Hierarchies are being introduced to address some of that previous one-dimensionality where the social ranking of Professions might differ in different parts of the world and allow for the implementation of the British Indian Caste System.

To understand a little better, let’s take a look at what this has looked like. Here is how the distribution of Pops by Profession across Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata has appeared previously:
View attachment 1206373
screenshot of overview tab in Population panel where you can see the Lower, Middle, and Upper Strata

Clerks, Laborers, Machinists, Peasants, Servicemen, and Slaves are Lower Strata. Academics, Bureaucrats, Clergymen, Engineers, Farmers, Officers, and Shopkeepers are Middle Strata. Aristocrats and Capitalists are Upper Strata.

Pops are still distributed as they have been by Profession above. But now, in the Base Hierarchy they will be distributed into the Lower, Middle, and Upper Classes:
View attachment 1206374
screenshot of Classes tab in Society panel where you can see Lower Class, Middle Class, Upper Class are Social Classes and are part of a Social Hierarchy called the Base Hierarchy

Pops part of the Base Hierarchy are assigned a Social Class based on their Professions as they had been before. Every Pop has a Social Class, and that Social Class belongs to a Strata. Social Classes can be defined based on a combination of pop type, primary culture, and/or religion. Social Class information will appear in the Society panel. Social Hierarchies are intended to affect all kinds of Pops, with moddability in mind, and can be linked to a law group.

This brings us to the British Indian Caste System. Since Shubham’s given a bit of the historical and cultural context, I'll dive in with what this looks like in the game!

View attachment 1206375
screenshot of Classes tab in Society panel for a country that has the British Indian Caste System where Brahmins, Kshatriyas, Vaishyas, Shudras, and Dalits are Social Classes

The British Indian Caste System recategorizes a Pops’ Strata differently from the Base Hierarchy. The British Indian Caste System specifically encompasses all Pops that are Hindu and have the South Asian Heritage cultural trait. Other Pops that are not Hindu and do not have the South Asian Heritage cultural trait will default to the existing Lower, Middle, and Upper Social Classes of the Base Hierarchy.

So where is the British Indian Caste System found? How is it set? The Caste System will be set from game start on the British East India Company and the Princely States.

Otherwise, it will appear with the following criteria:
  • A country is a subject of Great Britain
  • A country’s primary culture has the South Asian Heritage cultural trait
  • More than fifty percent of the population is Hindu.

If the percentage of Pops in a country with the British Indian Caste System drops to ten percent or below, the Caste System disappears and is fully replaced with the Base Hierarchy.
View attachment 1206376
screenshot of Social Hierarchy activated

Tied to the Caste System is the Caste Hegemony Law Group that will appear under Power Structure. This law group is specific to the British Indian Caste System. As such, the law group only appears and applies to countries where the British Indian Caste System is active. This will be the first time a law group is regional or culturally specific.

View attachment 1206377
screenshot of Power Structure laws

There are four laws in the Caste Hegemony law group: Caste System Enforced, Caste System Codified, Caste System Not Enforced, and Affirmative Action. The new laws affect the flow of social mobility via Qualification Gain, Acceptance, and/or Education Access. Where the Caste System Enforced and Caste System Codified laws are more a reflection of 19th century British Raj, the Affirmative Action law is designed to be a reflection of early days of Reservation laws in the early 20th century.

All countries that start with the Caste System or gain it from Pop criteria will activate with Caste Not Enforced.

View attachment 1206378
WIP screenshot of Caste Hegemony Law Group, list of effects subject to change

Effects in this law group primarily only apply to Pops that are part of the Caste System. For example in the WIP screenshot above, the Upper Strata for Pops in the Caste System, the Brahmins, have a minimum Acceptance value of 80. This minimum Acceptance value does not apply across the board to all Upper Strata Pops, such as Capitalists and Aristocrats that are not in the Caste System. It will only apply to Brahmins.

View attachment 1206379
WIP screenshot of Acceptance Status for a Pop that are Brahmins

Other laws in the law group will have more Acceptance and Qualification Growth effects that are specifically applied to Pops in the Caste System. Here is the Caste System Codified law as an example of other types of effects you can expect–

View attachment 1206380
WIP screenshot of Caste System Codified effects, subject to change. We’re actively working on improving readability and balancing the effects of these laws.

Here, there are effects on Landowners political strength and a Bureaucracy Population Cost Multiplier, as well as effects on Acceptance and Qualification Growth. Under the Caste System Codified law, Qualification Growth will be vastly restricted between castes, limiting the mobility between classes to varying degrees depending on the law in effect.

View attachment 1206381
WIP screenshot of Acceptance Status for a Pop that are Shudras

If you are playing as the British East India Company and the British Raj forms via the Indian Uprising Journal Entry, Caste System Codified will be activated if Caste System Enforced or Caste System Codified isn’t already part of your laws.

The British Indian Caste System and the Caste Hegemony Law Group (as well as the Indian Uprising Journal Entry rework) will be free as part of the 1.8 update!

That is all for today, however, we said in the Pivot of Empire diary on Tuesday that we would have two dev diaries this week. We actually are having three! So tune in tomorrow for some more about maps, culture and more by Hansi!
When are the devs planning on talking about new modding additions, and would it be possible to have some sort of clarification on how modifier types work since 1.7, since that hasn't been clearly communicated yet.
 
View attachment 1206486

A lot of possibilities open up with this design change, beyond the Indian caste system, are there any other changes coming to the other nations in the World?

For example, wealth levels should affect social class of POPs. Increasing wealth of POPs could eventually make machinists middle stratta, thus changing their political views.

I would really like to have these political implications implemented in the game.
i think literacy based classes would also be useful. it would also be cool to see a sort of kulak/middle-peasant class, and that could make them more likely to support conservative interest groups
 
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When are the devs planning on talking about new modding additions, and would it be possible to have some sort of clarification on how modifier types work since 1.7, since that hasn't been clearly communicated yet.
Modifier types now just must be specifically defined. Basically, just copying an existing modifier definition in common/modifier_type_definitions and changing the terms to include the new ones for your new modifier should work.
 
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The numbers in each caste seems off in the relevant screenshot, as today Dalits are about 15% of the indian population, and I'd assume would be a similar proportion in 1836. Will anything be done so that the proportion in each caste is historically accurate?
 
Hope that the new Social Hierarchy system will eventually be used to make some laws change the social strata of certain professions. For an example, Theocracy making Clergymen an upper class, and State Atheism making them a lower class.

Also, does this system allow to make it that no pops belong to certain strata at all? Would it be possible to mod things like Anarchy law making everyone a middle strata?
 
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Very interesting, and I have a few suggestions to give for an india-focused update, although it may take me some time to gather sources for them.

For now, I just want to mention that while the assumption is being made here that indian castes are unique to hinduism, this is not accurate, currently or historically. The caste system was (and to a lesser extent, is) extensively practiced by Sikh, Jain, Muslim and Christian communities in India as well.


Even the censuses that the british carried out treated caste as a separate dimension from religion, and it was recorded for Muslims and Christians as well (although they had the option of saying "no caste" since at least 1911). Iirc even the zoroastrian communities in india have some concept of caste, and it was only the jewish communities that did not have it altogether.

As such, the conditions for this social hierarchy might have to be a bit different.

Also, moving Kshatriyas to upper strata might be more accurate, as they were the major landowning caste with whom real power rested. The theoretical supremacy of the brahmins may have been enshrined in texts (which, incidentally, were interpreted and translated by brahmins) but they lacked any practical influence over day-to-day life except what they could get through influence over (kshatriya) kings and landowners. But this, i think, is quite subjective.
 
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Social Classes within Social Hierarchies are pre-defined and set in stone.
Why is that? If somebody wanted to make a mod, that lets you impact your Social Hierarchy by changing laws, they would have to predefine a lot of things.

Say I want technocracy to move engineers to some specific social class.
Then let's say I want command economy to move bureaucrats to some specific social class.

Just for those two, I would need to define and check for four set in stone states.

Now if I also want Theocracy to move clergymen to upper class.
Now it grew to 9 states.


Why not just give us the ability to move around pops from class to class via effect?
 
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Is the modern understanding of caste not defined by British rule in your mind?
“Modern understanding” is doing a lot of work in this debate. Did the British influence the system, undoubtedly, but the implication of the dev diary, at least to me was that the negative effects people associate with the Indian caste system such as its rigidity and power imbalance did not exist prior to British rule. And I’m sorry but that just isn’t true. There is significant and identifiable genetic divergences between the castes even to this day, and that could not have occurred without some form of enforcement of this system at the very least when it came to marriage law and reproduction. Think about what that means. What kind of social forces had to be in effect to prevent such mixing of peoples, that lived side by side for thousands of years.
 
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I feel like the social hierarchy system would be perfect for Soviet Russia - having the Tsarist social hierarchy turned literally ‘upside down’ with the workers and peasants at the top and bourgeoisie at the bottom!
But that's not historically accurate. Bureaucrats went from middle to the top.
All workers and peasants got is easier upward mobility.
 
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How are ideologies going to interact with the country-specific law groups? Clearly Humanitarians should oppose enforced caste laws, but it would be odd to have that law opinion appear for countries that it's irrelevant for.
 
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But that's not historically accurate. Bureaucrats went from middle to the top.
All workers and peasants got is easier upward mobility.
A "party state" social hierarchy that puts bureaucrats and officers at the top and demotes aristos and capitalists to middle class seems fitting though.
 
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Hi Shubham, just wanted to say that the notion that caste "as we know it" was a colonial construct and not rigidly enforced in pre-colonial India is not entirely correct and, frankly, a bit problematic because it partially whitewashes caste discrimination in pre-colonial India. The epics and mythological literature are replete with examples of how people not behaving according to caste rules (mostly "lower" castes attaining education) led to all sorts of catastrophe.

Also, AFAIK, "dalit" was a term applied to the "lower" castes by Jyotirao Phule, and it comes from the Marathi word meaning, literally, "downtrodden". Did the Portuguese have anything to do with this?
 
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I think the caste system would work better if it defined what professions a caste pop can't take instead of which ones they're limited too. For example, no caste other than brahmins can be clergy, and while both vaishyas and kshatriyas can be officers, only the latter can be aristocrats, just so the qualification system isn't completely borked in this new update.

(also, this probably isn't the right dev diary for this question, but will minority religion pops such as Jains and Zoroastrians be added in this dlc?)
 
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On more general terms, will the prime culture of an overlord in a subject nation always be fully accepted/non-discriminated?
British-Raj/EIC has thr British as primary culture, but what about the French puppeting Vietnam for example?
 
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Why am I not surprised to see someone trying to blame colonisers for aspects of an indigenous social system that predates them by thousands of years?

Edit: to appease the pedants
 
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