Tinto Maps #27 - 22nd of November 2024 - Oceania

[Thorum]

It looks like you used the territorial waters boundary for the "country" of New Caledonia, not the coastline?

 

[King_Potat]

All of the Torres Straight Islands should be combined into one location, being called either Waiben or Waibene (after the native name for the most historically important and most populous island, Thursday island. Alternatively the modern term Zenadh Kes could be used, but it was invented in 1980). All of the ones able to be shown were dominated by the Kalaw Lagaw Ya, and it does not make sense to group Prince of Wales island, Thursday island, and Horn island with the mainland at this point in time.

 

[Nikicaga]

"Speaking of religions, I asked this in the culture thread, but didn't get an answer yet: Are there plans for religions being able to be in multiple groups, like cultures are?"
Not as for now.

I hope there are other mechanics dealing with religious tolerance between specific faiths and syncretism?

 

[Tavolo87]

gotta be fair, the terrain map is not lookable at all, the black stripes are too distracting from well, everything else

 

[Vaju]

Where is Easter Island? And two societies in it: Rapa Nui and Hanau Epe?

 

[Spiritoftwinings]

As plenty of people have said in here already, there should be at least a couple of Settled Countries in Oceania. The Hawaiian kingdoms, Tonga, and Samoa are making the headlines but I'd also like to point out that Pohnpei, Kosrae, and Rapa Nui should be Settled Countries as well. After all, the ruins of Nan Madol (aka the Venice of the Pacific), Leluh, and the moai on Rapa Nui suggest a fairly centralized society was present at these islands, especially since we know of the monarchies that would be present in 1337 like the
Saudeleur dynasty of Nan Madol.

View attachment 1220092
View attachment 1220095
View attachment 1220096

I'll have to read up on others like Yap and some of the SoPs suggested for Australia and New Guinea.

Also, for anyone more familiar with Oceania, what would make for a good market center east of Ternate?

Regardless, I'm hoping these few suggestions for Settled Countries will be considered. I'm without a doubt looking forward to the North America Tinto Maps next week and the rest of the New World!

Yep, definitely the Rapa Nui culture fits most of the points to be a settled society (agriculture, a centralized state and a permanent settlement, although I'm not sure about taxation). They were quite small in numbers though (a couple thousands), and I don't know if that's a criteria for deciding against them being a settled country.

 

[Druplesnubb]

I think you can somewhat safely merge all Polynesian and Australian indigenous religions into one each, perhaps with a few culture-locked mechanics. Correct me if I'm wrong, but "the Dreaming" is rather ubiquitous across Australia (maybe not Tasmania), while Polynesian religions all have a common source, similar to Indo-European religions but more similar due to not having had enough time to diverge.

Speaking of religions, I asked this in the culture thread, but didn't get an answer yet: Are there plans for religions being able to be in multiple groups, like cultures are?

That sounds more like shared religion group than shared religion.

 

[Vaju]

And most importantly, where is the sacred city of R'lyeh?

 

[Sutixela]

Also, down to the right, that is not ‘Linear Atlantis’, but our ‘3D Material Testing Island’

Can we see the tests?

 

[daybreak57]

Extremely disappointed by the lack of playable tags, especially considering this era is both the dawn of Maori presence on NZ and a defining era in Tongan and Samoan history. Hopefully the team is open to a serious revision here, because a completely empty Pacific is both boring and ahistorical.

 

[Nyanako]

Sad to see Rabul as not a natural harbour, it was one of the best in the Pacific Islands.

I query the inclusion of 'wheat' in Australia, since the local indigenous groups didn't undertake systemic agriculture of grasses - and as far as I am aware, there are no commercially farmed Australian native grasses. Some of the Iron deposits in western Australia were not commercially viable until the 20th century, so I'd also query whether there should be something else there.

 

[Deleted user]

What about having a cup of tinto wine, preferably Ribera del Duero, while taking a look at historical maps?

I am really sorry to have to disagree with you @Pavía probably the only time, but Rioja wine is far superior to Ribera del Duero, not only because I am Riojan, your respectful competitor, but because this is just a fact.

I am just kidding, I have of course had Riberas and they were exceptional, I just respectfully disagree for the laughs. Glad you're back from your well deserved holidays!

 

[Pescavelho]

Not as for now.

In the other thread I gave the example of how the Druze religion could be in the Muslim, Gnostic and Ethnic religious groups at the same time and it'd make sense. I imagine there could be problems with specific religious mechanics being hard-coded to groups, though.

That sounds more like shared religion group than shared religion.

I'm just skeptical of the idea that it's feasible, let alone desirable to flesh out every single one of these little ethnoreligions. If possible, they should be merged, and specific details worked out later.

 

[GeneralUrist]

Oh boy, so many places that are 1 or 2 islands in EU4 are very broken up! I just hope that amounts of something fun, and not something that makes colonizing the area micromanagement heck.

I wonder if making all of Polynesia just SoPs is a way for the devs to sidestep the question of representing the phenomenal Polynesian long-distance sailing agility without giving the tags overpowered exploration abilities.

Dang New Guinea's culture map looks like a paintball shotgun blast. On one hand, this could be quite the educational tool about the true diversity of the place. On the other hand, is it really worth it (in dev time and performance cost) to make so many different cultures when the locations with them can do nothing?

Unsurprisingly plain resources. If New Caledonia or Australia gets colonized much earlier than our history can the player open the Nickel/Iron mines or are those beyond the reach of preindustrial technology?

We have plenty of ideas, but the feasibility of them is very low at this stage, to be brutally honest. We'll confirm it in due time, but we prefer to be honest with the community, and not create non-realistic expectations.

Thanks for the honest info at least. Once the Tinto Talks are done and mechanics are finalized, would the team be willing to share some of the ideas they had for Societies of Pops and what about them proved unfun and/or unfeasible? I'm very curious what the challenges and limitations of representing this sort of non-landowning entity are.

Unless there will be an option for later start dates, I think it would be useful to have an option to play as a SoP that is going to form a centralised nation in the earlier portion of the game via an event, even if it the gameplay until then is going to be extremely boring and basically just fast forwarding. Otherwise one could be forced to play as a nation that gets this event (presumably in the same region) and potentially mess up the region by playing too good or too bad.

Definitely something like this. Perhaps a built in option to "force this SoP to settle at its historical date, and put the game on observer mode until then" so that people who want to play those areas but don't want to fiddle around with other tags or paying super close attention for whether they settled.

 

[Kotyk-durkotyk]

I think that the Reddit map-makers will be pleased, yes. And there's even a new continent appearing there!:
View attachment 1219986

Sorry for writing it here (I posted it in the relevant thread some time ago too), but please, rename Halychyna to Halicia.

Halychyna is more of a cultural, geographical term, a perfect area name, but was never used to refer to the Duchy of Halych. As a Ukrainian I can tell you that as a tag name it feels very wrong. Like using Veneto instead of Venice/Rep. of Venice.

The city of Halych was written with H in all European maps, Halicia also exists in the New Latin and this way it’s different from the Iberian Galicia. So Halicia is a perfect choise.

 

[poloport]

The nularbor plain should not be a regular province.

The area was historically only seasonably inhabited, and even today is only barely inhabited. A situation similar to those transaharan paths would be a better representation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nullarbor_Plain

 

[Kong Rødskæg]

Are there no playable peoples in Australia?

 

[kagami1999]

Are there no playable peoples in Australia?

Seems that way. It's a real step-back from EU4.

 

[LordThanatos]

I'm interested in diving into some more societies at some point - but I think the Tongan Maritime Chiefdom is the most obvious one to be made a state, and I think from some brief research, that it's pretty likely that they should be by most of the metrics, depending how they are defined.

Settled Countries (State Societies)

• Organized through States, which implies a public power holding:
  • Monopoly of violence
    • I'm unsure how this is defined for the period given that most feudal states differed in how tight that monopoly was. In any case, it's clear that the Tongans had a raised army and used it for a number of well-attested naval invasions of neighboring islands. I'd ask that any motivated members of the community who are interested try to dig up some more information on how this army was structured. I found little beyond that it was used.
  • Tax collection
    • Ritualized yearly tax in yam crop given to king and nobility
  • Public works
    • Well known for its monumental efforts, including land reclamation projects and vast ceremonial infrastructure and public spaces
  • Writing/record-keeping systems
    • Again, unsure what really counts here. There are oral genealogical records tracking rulers through different dynasties for several centuries.

Sources:

• Clark, Geoffrey, David Burley, and Tim Murray. “Monumentality and the Development of the Tongan Maritime Chiefdom.” Antiquity82.318 (2008): 994–1008. Web.
• Clark, Geoffrey, and Christian Reepmeyer. “Stone Architecture, Monumentality and the Rise of the Early Tongan Chiefdom.” Antiquity88.342 (2014): 1244–1260. Web
• Finau Savelio Pole, "Traditional Tongan Farming System Past and Present" ICHCAP, https://archive.unesco-ichcap.org/eng/ek/sub10/pdf_down/03-2. Traditional Tongan Farming System Past and Present.pdf

 

[Holy_Roman_Empire]

Two things:
1. The large swathes of wasteland in central Papua and Australia were in fact inhabited, and used as trade routes. I would add more locations/corridors to the interior to represent the peoples who lived here.
2. This era would have been during the peak of the Saudeleur dynasty on the island of Pohnpei, which was a centralized state and the island's first organized government.

Saudeleur dynasty - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am still of the opinion that both SOPs and horizontal societies should be playable to some capacity but I understand if that can't be feasibly and accurately implemented right now.