Tinto Maps #28 - 29th of November 2024 - North America

[Demetrios]

These straight borders wouldn't become common place until the mid 19th century. That's after the end date of eu4 and eu5 and more around victoria's start date. Big straight lines on the map like in Algeria, modern Irak, the USA-Canada border or the Midwest are virtually non-existent during the time-frame of the game. And while some places like Virginia might have straight lines by 1800, thats 1) pretty late into the game 2) there is too few of them to justify map changes and 3) its mostly the borders between states, not between countries that are like that by the end of eu4/eu5, so it won't be nearly as visible on a map.

The stated end-date of this game is 1837, so many of those straight-line borders have been established by then, some for over a century by that point.

 

[YashaCarry]

I'd like to suggest a cultural edit for 1337 and that all of these should be merged into one Plaquemine culture

Now, you might be thinking why in the world would I suggest such a thing? Well, for starters, the Natchez, Taensa and Avoyel all are derivative of the Plaquemine culture, and are only definitely defined as existent following the start of the 17th century, with only evidence suggesting that by 1542 the Natchez were distinct as the polity of the Quiguatlam paramountcy, which by most has been accepted as more so a paramountcy that unified much of the Plaquemine culture including Winterville, Holly Bluff, Medora, and Emerald Mound, so because they don't exist until after our start date, it might be best to make them emergent cultures. As for Bayagoula, they are now a subtribe of the Houma who were not in that area at that time, and they're closely related with the Choctaw, who did not coalesce until the 16th century following Plaquemine. As for Tiou, I couldn't find anything upon them that suggested they event existed, but I do know that the Menard-Hodges site was in that area, which was Plaquemine cultured, and later likely became a part of the province of Anilco.

So, for 1337, it would be more accurate for these to be a Plaquemine culture rather than these individual cultures which were yet to form separate of the Plaquemine basis, and yes, I excluded the Chitimacha as they are known to have existed separately of the Plaquemine culture at this time and before the Plaquemine.

 

[Demetrios]

I don't think my thoughts on this will come as a surprise to anyone that has followed my activity in the forums!

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Firstly, good job on all the work on the map, especially for the locations. I found out how hard it can be to find native names for some areas so even this much is fairly good, much better than my recent attempts!

Current Settled Countries:

Puebloans:

I like that we got at least a few Puebloan tags! For those who don't know:

- Acoma Pueblo = Áakʼu
- Teypana is the same
- Pueblo of Isleta = Shiewhibak
- Zia Pueblo = Tsi'ya
- Sandia Pueblo = Tuf Shur Tia
- Pueblo Galisteo = Than-u-ge
- Ohkwee Ówîngeh is the same and was formerly known as San Juan Pueblo
- Taos Pueblo = Iałopháybo

For the area immediately around the north New Mexican Pueblos, I feel like you could add locations for some of the other local Pueblos like Cicuye, Kawaika, Kua-Kaa, Puye, etc.


Cahokia:

Of course I'm glad that we got Cahokia, the poster child for North America at this time! As an interesting tidbit that may be worth knowing, according to recent research, after its abandonment around 1350-1400, Cahokia did get a population rebound by 1500 until declining again around 1700. Another cool thing to know about Cahokia is that, before their decline they used to have colonies/missions further afield in places such as Aztalan, Trempealeau, etc.!

As hard as it might be for some to believe for a struggling country, I'd actually make Cahokia a little bit bigger here. Firstly, with the American Bottom being the core area of Cahokia, owning the nearby Pulcher site and Emerald Mounds, and possibly owning the Ware Mounds for the valuable chert close by, I'd at least include the Kaskaskia, Kaskankaham, Chepoussa, and Ochechiton locations to Cahokia.

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Another area I'd add to Cahokia is the Missouri river up to where modern Kansas City and St. Joseph are. This would add the locations Nudarcha, Wimihsoorita, and Nodaway. In this area is where the Steed-Kisker culture is. According to the Wikipedia page:

"Initially, numerous Cahokia-style projectile points were found here, and a trading link was theorized. But more recently, other evidence, such as "wall trench house construction, quantification of non-local trade materials", and evidence of two temple mound communities on the lower Missouri River (which were destroyed, used for fill in railroad development in the 19th century) have indicated more direct relations and early settlement by people from Cahokia.[2]"

One last area I'd add to Cahokia is the Illinois River up to the Fendel Site. Its near the Peoria, Illinois so we'd include the Peoria location.

Fandel Mounds: A Lohmann Horizon Mississippian Mound Center in the Central Illinois River Valley

experts.illinois.edu

A Woodford County dig site may change our understanding of how Mississippian Native American culture grew

An archaeological dig site in rural Woodford County may change academia's story of the Mississippian Native American culture.

www.wcbu.org

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Settled Countries that I'd add:

As I'm sure you're aware of by now, most of us in these forums think that more Settled Countries should be added to North America.

Southwest:

The biggest contender that I'd want for this region would be the massive Hohokam community that farmed along the Salt and Gila river valleys. As I mentioned in a thread about the Southwest, the Hohokam in this area built massive multistory settlements to house thousands of people, had their own ballcourts, and constructed numerous irrigation canals to feed their large population which is estimated at 50,000 to 60,000 in each close river valley. Under one polity, that's a population of around 120,000! As others have said, you may want to adjust that "154K in the West Coast" number. Some of the largest sites in this area are Pueblo Grande (S’edav Va’aki) in Phoenix, Pueblo Los Muertos in Tempe, and Casa Grande (Siwañ Waʼa Ki) at the Gila River. In my maps, I put Pueblo Grande as the capital of the 2 river valleys but you're welcome to take a look and make that determination yourself. Also, in Akimel O'odham oral traditions, it is mentioned that "before the appearance of the Coyote People appeared, this massive structure was built by an important chieftain called Sial Teu-utak Sivan, (turqoise Leader) or "Chief Turquoise". In the ancient hohokam language, the great house and the associated prehistoric ruins found north of Coolidge were collectively referred to as Sivan Vah'Ki, literally meaning the "Abandoned House", or "Village of the king/chieftain", respectively. As Frank Russell recorded in the early 20th century, several O'odham oral traditions note that Sial Teu-utak was an important leader of the Casa Grande community, before the overthrow of the Suwu'Ki O'odham, or "Vulture People"."

It sounds settled to me!

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This post is getting...a bit long so I'll submit this one and put in a part 2 momentarily!

I mentioned it earlier, but I'll second it here due to the additional info - the Hohokam would be a reasonable addition as a settled country. The Phoenix metro area still uses the irrigation canals originally made by the Hohokam all those centuries ago. The area irrigated by the Hohokam along the canals from the Gila and Salt Rivers is huge, and definitely a sign of an organized people.

 

[Demetrios]

For now I only have two suggestions. I believe a wasteland area should be made from the Gran Desierto de Altar—a subregion within the Sonoran desert which divides the Mexican provinces of Baja California and Sonora. It’s small, around half the size of the State of Connecticut, but it’s perhaps the most desert-like area of North America. It’s almost completely barren, unlike the rest of the Sonoran which is typically dotted with fauna, and is littered with sand dunes. Even a modern army would have trouble getting through here, and living here would be impossible. There’s also a volcano, for some reason.
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I'll agree with that. Yes, Puerto Penasco/Rocky Point is a pretty large city, but that's only a very recent development - tourists from Arizona going to the nearest beaches which allowed a small fishing town to become a booming tourist city. Before that point, this area was nothing but a barren wasteland, and still mostly is.

 

[Demetrios]

I've got a question. Can you use ships to traverse lets say from lake superior to lake Huron and then through lake Erie to lake Ontario? Or are all the lakes completely seperated from each other?

You should be able to go between Michigan/Huron/Erie (Michigan and Huron are technically and hydrologically the same lake), but Superior and (especially) Ontario are separated from the others by rapids. In the case of Ontario, some really big rapids called Niagara Falls!

 

[arkh4ngelsk]

PROPOSAL FOR TEXAS

For this proposal, I focused on the eastern half of the state - roughly the area de facto controlled by the Republic of Texas, or the "Tejas" portion of Coahuila y Tejas, ending at the Nueces River to the south and slightly west of modern Austin/San Antonio. Every location in this region should be in the area of Texas. The name is of indigenous derivation and has a fairly long history (the "Kingdom of the Tejas", referring to the Hasinai Caddo, was known in Spanish New Mexico very early in the 1600s) Most borders are natural, as well - the Red River to the north, Sabine River to the east, and Nueces River to the south. The current area covering most of Texas, Natahende, derives from Mescalero Apache, who only lived on the westernmost fringes of the state, in my opinion making it a much better fit for that region (perhaps replacing the Spanish Llano Estacado).

I will eventually make a post covering west and south Texas, but I wanted to focus on this core area first. Outside of the Caddo and Wichita, most of Texas' indigenous people were nomadic hunter-gatherers, meaning placing definite "locations" is difficult and, given the hundreds of tribes listed in Spanish and French sources, there is both a lot of information and very little information at the same time, and it's all from a time several centuries after 1337. I mentioned in my initial comment that the current map is a mess, but that's not surprising, and these locations are also somewhat messy but slightly less so. The detailed location proposal is at the end of the post; in all, I suggest 51 locations for this region, a density which I believe is appropriate. I will try to do Louisiana next.

COUNTRIES/SOCIETIES OF POPS
There are some really strange choices on the current map. First, why are the Hasinai "Caddoan" while the Kadohadacho and Natchitoches have their actual names in their indigenous form? To be consistent, "Caddoan people" should be "Hasíinay" or "Hasinai". I also think all three of these confederacies should be settled states. They had already reached near the apex of their social complexity in 1337, and were well-organized with defined social hierarchies and extensive trade networks. There have been other comments with good descriptions of the specifics of this complexity, so my only addition would be to point out that it's not unreasonable to project these political subdivisions into this past, as the archaeological record within the Caddo homeland shows relative stability and very little indication of intra-Caddo warfare until the late 17th century, when Europeans began to arrive in earnest. There's very little evidence of "decline" even after the fall of Cahokia, aside from some small contractions on the fringes of settlement likely due to drought.

I'm loath to call for removing SOPs, but the inclusion of the Ishak (and their split into two components, for some reason?) is very confusing to me. The Ishak/Atakapa were pure hunter-gatherers, with low population density and very little established political hierarchies. If you're going to leave any region empty of SOPs, this is probably it. If the Caddo confederacies are made settled states it might make sense for the Ishak to stay, but as things stand having both represented as SOPs at the same time makes no sense. They had vastly different forms of social organization. Also if the Ishak are a SOP I'd argue the Karankawa should be as well, but with the current criteria I don't see much issue leaving most of Texas blank.

PROVINCES/AREAS
As stated, I believe all locations included (except the two Oklahoma ones) should be in a "Texas" area. Regarding provinces, I suggest the following divisions:

- Tso'to: taken from the Caddo name for modern-day Caddo Lake. Alternative name could be Nondacao.
- Nacogdoches: taken from the Caddo settlement that gave the modern city its name.
- Nachawi: taken from the Caddo name for the Neches River.
- Bidai: taken from the Quasmigdo people, who were called Bidai by others. Alternative name could just be Quasmigdo.
- Akokisa: taken from the Akokisa people. Alternative names could be Orcoquisac or Atakapa.
- Tokonohono: taken from the Caddo name for the Brazos River. Currently a location, but IMO makes more sense as a province.
- Karankawa: named for the group that resided in this area.
- Payeye: named for the tribe whose settlement, Yanaguana, became San Antonio.
- Tickanwatic: named after the endonym of the Tonkawa. Alternative could just be Tonkawa.
- Waco: named for the Waco, a Wichita subdivision.
- K'itaish: named for the K'itaish or Kichai, the SOP that occupies this area on the current map.

CULTURE
The Caddo shouldn't be split. While there were differences between each Caddo confederacy, they all shared many cultural traits and I believe it would be a disservice to split them up. I have added one new cultures: Quasmigdo to represent the Bidai (endonym: Quasmigdo) people south of the Caddo (who were not themselves Caddo). If needed, the Quasmigdo can be folded into the Ishak. I have opted not to break up the Coahuilteco culture because the migrations into Central Texas over the centuries following 1337, plus the elimination of most of its native population, have made tracing defined cultures back that far basically impossible.

RELIGION
I'm unsure why the Caddo are split yet again. The entire Caddo region should be in the "Ceremonial" area. Similarly, the Atakapa religion should extend into Louisiana rather than weirdly splitting the Ishak in half. The Bidai/Quasmigdo can go with them as well.

HARBORS
Galveston Bay could probably be a better harbor than it is currently.

TERRAIN
I've included suggestions for each location in my proposal. No changes to the climate, pretty much everything being subtropical is fine. I tried to represent the Texas Hill Country, which I believe should meet the criteria for Hills despite being shown as Flatland. If northern Louisiana and southern Arkansas somehow have hills, the Hill Country should definitely have them.

LANGUAGE
"Caddoan" is a language family that includes Wichita and Pawnee-Kichai, not just the modern Caddo language covered by the "Caddoan" language here. The current "Caddoan" language should just be "Caddo".

RAW MATERIALS
In terms of specifics: there should be stone in the Edwards Plateau (roughly locations with hills terrain in my proposal), to represent the widespread use of Edwards chert for tools in pre-colonial Texas. Compared to the current map, there should be no cotton at all (it was not grown in the southeast) and maize should be limited to locations with Caddo or K'itaish cultures. Some fur locations could also be added.

POPULATION
Estimates for the Caddo population vary widely, from as low as 8,000 to as high as 250,000. Somewhere between 18,000-60,000 seems to be the best consensus for the East Texas Caddo population pre-European contact.

For Southeast Texas, Lawrence Aten's Indians of the Upper Texas Coast gives estimates of roughly 800-1,200 for the Bidai, 1,333-2,000 for the Akokisa, 1,333-2,000 for the Ishak (Atakapa), and 4,000-6,000 for the Karankawa.

LOCATIONS
For dynamic colonial names, I have tried to include relevant Spanish, French, and English names that date before 1837. All English names are Anglo-American, so their relevance will depend on how dynamic naming works and whether colonial cultures are added. I have also included a few German names and one Sorbian name. These date from after the game's timeframe, but are fairly close and would be an interesting addition. (En. = English, Sp. = Spanish, Fr. = French, Ger. = German, Sor. = Sorbian)

I have done the least with North Texas (Dallas-Fort Worth area) because if sources are scarce elsewhere, they are almost nonexistent here, and the Wichita who resided in this area moved their villages around so frequently that you could have several locations named Tawakoni and they would all be placed accurately. Since I don't plan to do a proposal for Oklahoma, I've also added two locations there that I believe should be included.

I messed up the numbering, which is why there are two 25s.

Location Name

Country/SOP

Province

Topography

Terrain

Culture

Notes

1. Nasoni Poste des Cadodaquious (Fr.) San Luiz de los Cadodachos (Sp.) Pecan Point (En.)	Kadawdáachuh	Tso'to	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Kadohadacho settlement located along the Red River near Texarkana. Also the site of a French trading post. Most densely populated region of the Caddo homeland.
2. Lacane	Kadawdáachuh	Tso'to	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Location encountered by De Soto expedition, probably in the Cypress Creek basin.
3. Nisohone	Kadawdáachuh	Tso'to	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Location encountered by De Soto expedition, probably in the Cypress Creek basin.
4. Nadákuh Nadaco (Sp.)	Hasinai	Tso'to	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Same as De Soto's Nondacao, located at the Pine Tree Mound site. Described by De Soto as having plentiful maize.
5. Nacao	Hasinai	Nacogdoches	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Hasinai town northeast of Nacogdoches.
6. Nacogdoches	Hasinai	Nacogdoches	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Hasinai town at the site of the future city of Nacogdoches. Should probably be the Hasinai capital.
7. Nabiti	Hasinai	Nacogdoches	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Hasinai town northwest of Nacogdoches along the Angelina River.
8. Naconiche	Hasinai	Nacogdoches	Flatland	Forest	Caddo	Hasinai town east of Nacogdoches along Naconiche Creek.
9. Ayish Los Ais (Sp.)	none	Nacogdoches	Flatland	Forest	Caddo	Possibly a duplicate with Aays. Most identify Aays with the Ayish (or Eyeish) who lived in the area around modern San Augustine. "Los Ais" is short for Mission Dolores de Los Ais. While likely Caddo in culture, the Ayish were not affiliated with the Hasinai.
10. Háynay Hainai (Sp.)	Hasinai	Nachawi	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Hasinai town northwest of Nacogdoches along the Angelina River.

11. Nacachau	Hasinai	Nachawi	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Hasinai town northwest of Nacogdoches along the Neches River.
12. Nabáydácu Los Tejas (Sp.)	Hasinai	Nachawi	Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Hasinai town west of the Neches River. Possibly the same as De Soto's Guasco. "Los Tejas" refers to Mission San Francisco de Los Tejas, founded 1690.
13. Nak'ono Nacono (Sp.)	Hasinai	Nachawi	Flatland	Forest	Caddo	Hasinai town southwest of Nacogdoches along the Neches River.
14. Deadose	none	Bidai	Flatland	Forest	Quasmigdo	Little-known, possibly Atakapan tribe that lived in this general area in the Big Thicket.
15. Bidai Bucareli (Sp.) Bedias (En.)	none	Bidai	Flatland	Forest	Quasmigdo	The Quasmigdo (Bidai) people were a small tribe that lived along the Trinity River. They were not Caddoan, and may have been Atakapan, but their exact identity is uncertain. Bucareli was a Spanish settlement established 1774 and abandoned 1779, replaced by Nacogdoches.
16. Patiri Lake Creek (En.)	none	Bidai	Flatland	Forest	Quasmigdo	Very little is known about the Patiri, besides that they likely lived between the Bidai and Akokisa. The Lake Creek settlement was the earliest Anglo settlement in the region.
17. Pachina	none	Bidai	Flatland	Forest	Ishak	Foster quotes a Bidai chief saying the Pachina lived to their east along the Sabine River. There's not much else about them.
18. Ishak Tevis Bluff (En.)	Ishak people	Akokisa	Wetlands	Woods	Ishak	There is very little information on the modern-day Beaumont area. While the Ishak (Atakapa) had a much broader range, just using the tribal name probably works. Tevis Bluff was the first Anglo settlement near modern Beaumont.
19. Orcoquisac Fort Las Casas (En.)	Ishak people	Akokisa	Wetlands	Woods	Ishak	The Bolivar Peninsula was known as Punta de Los Orcoquisacs before being renamed for Simon Bolivar. Fort Las Casas was established on the peninsula in 1819.
20. Caux Champ d'Asile (Fr.) Atascocito (Sp.) Liberty (En.)	Ishak people	Akokisa	Wetlands	Woods	Ishak	Frenchman Simars de Bellisle was held hostage by a group of Akokisa he called the "Caux". They likely lived east of Trinity Bay. Champ d'Asile was a short-lived colony of Bonapartist refugees in 1818. Liberty was initially the Spanish settlement of Atascocito.

21. Toyal Harrisburg (En.)	none	Akokisa	Wetlands	Woods	Ishak	Somewhat uncertain name. Bellisle references the Toyal as enemies of the Caux, living to the west. Little else is known about them. Harrisburg was the precursor to Houston, though if it's a duplicate for the one in Pennsylvania, Houston is technically within the timeframe (founded 1836). An alternate name could be Šakotayišol Nunuš (source).
22. Han Galveston (En.) Isla de Malhado (Sp.)	Ishak people	Akokisa	Wetlands	Woods	Ishak	Cabeza de Vaca was stranded on Galveston Island in 1528, and described it as divided between the Han (Akokisa) and Capoque (Karankawa). For simplicity's sake I have given all of Galveston Island to the Han. An alternate name could be Auia, since it seems to have possibly been a Karankawa name for Galveston Island.
23. Charruco Fort Bend (En.)	none	Tokonohono	Flatland	Woods	Coahuilteco	Cabeza de Vaca described the Charruco as living on the mainland north of the Capoque and Han.
24. Palaquechare Washington-on-the-Brazos (En.)	none	Tokonohono	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tribe residing between the Brazos and Colorado Rivers encountered by the La Salle expedition. Washington-on-the-Brazos served as an early capital of Texas.
25 (north) Mayeye San Xavier (Sp.)	none	Tokonohono	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tribe residing between Colorado and Brazos Rivers east of modern Temple. The San Xavier missions were established in 1746 around present Rockdale.
25 (south) Yojuane Bastrop (En.) Serbin (Sor.)	none	Tokonohono	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tribe that resided east of modern Austin north of the Colorado River. Serbin was only established in 1855, but a Sorbian name in Texas might be a fun easter egg.
26. Cantona Hallettsville (En.)	none	Tokonohono	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tribe residing east of modern Austin (not west, as in existing location) over a broad range of territory.
27. Toho San Felipe (En.)	none	Tokonohono	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tribe residing along the Colorado and Guadalupe Rivers near but not on the coast. San Felipe was the capital of Stephen F. Austin's first colony in Texas, established 1823.
28. Capoque Velasco (En.)	none	Karankawa	Wetlands	Grassland	Karankawa	Cabeza de Vaca encountered the probably Karankawa Capoque. They may be the same as the later Coco, who ranged between the Brazos and Colorado Rivers along the coast. Velasco was an early capital of the Republic of Texas.
29. Karankawa Matagorda (Sp.)	none	Karankawa	Wetlands	Grassland	Karankawa	Named for a band of Karankawa that later gave its name to the entire culture.

30. Mariame Baye St. Louis (Fr.) La Bahía (Sp.) Victoria (En.) Karlshafen (Ger.)	none	Karankawa	Flatland	Grassland	Karankawa	Cabeza de Vaca resided with the Mariame for over a year in their home along the lower Guadalupe River. He describes them as consuming a great deal of nuts, so legumes would be a good fit for raw materials. This was the site of La Salle's failed French colony and the initial Spanish missions known as La Bahia that later became Goliad. Karlshafen was the landing area for the first German settlers in Texas, though that was not until 1844.
31. Copane El Cópano (Sp.) Aransas City (En.)	none	Karankawa	Wetlands	Grassland	Karankawa	Copane were a band of Karankawa living around Copano Bay. El Copano was a Spanish coastal settlement in the area.
32. Aranama Goliad (Sp., En.)	none	Payeye	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tribe residing southeast of San Antonio towards the coast. Similar to existing location.
33. Chayopin El Cíbolo (Sp.)	none	Payeye	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tribe residing southeast of San Antonio around Floresville, where there were still a few local place names after them in the 19th century. El Cibolo was a short-lived 18th century Spanish fort on Cibolo Creek.
34. Yanaguana San Antonio (Sp.)	none	Payeye	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Yanaguana was the Payeye settlement on which San Antonio was established.
35. Saxop Wan Pupako Las Fontanas (Sp.) Neu-Braunfels (Ger.)	none	Payeye	Hills	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Saxop Wan Pupako is a Coahuilteco name for Comal Springs, while Las Fontanas is the Spanish name. Neu-Braunfels was established by German settlers in 1845.
36. Atajal Friedrichsburg (Ger.)	none	Payeye	Hills	Grassland	Coahuilteco	May be a slight stretch, but TSHA states the Atajal likely lived on the Edwards Plateau west of San Antonio. Friedrichsburg (modern Fredericksburg) wasn't founded until 1846, but is the most famous German settlement in Texas.
37. Ajehuac Yana San Marcos (Sp.)	none	Tickanwatic	Hills	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Ajehuac Yana is a Coahuilteco name for Spring Lake. San Marcos was a brief Spanish settlement in the area from 1808-1812.
38. Sana Gonzales (En.)	none	Tickanwatic	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tribe residing northeast of San Antonio between the Guadalupe and Brazos Rivers. The name is an existing location, but with the "-ns" suffix removed.
39. Tza Wan Pupako	none	Tickanwatic	Hills	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tza Wan Pupako is a Coahuilteco name for Barton Springs. While slightly out of the time period (established in 1839), Waterloo or Austin could potentially be English names.

40. Tickanwatic	none	Tickanwatic	Hills	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Tonkawa name, taken from existing location map.
41. Ndawe Qoha San Sabá (Sp.)	none	Tickanwatic	Hills	Grassland	Coahuilteco	Lipan Apache name, taken from present location map. San Saba was a mission established for the Lipan Apache that was destroyed by a Comanche alliance in 1758.
42. Melenudo	none	Waco	Flatland	Grassland	Coahuilteco	TSHA describes the Melenudo as a tribe residing southwest of Waco.
43. Waco	K'itaish people	Waco	Flatland	Grassland	K'itaish	As the Wichita lived all over Texas, I thought it would be best to put "Waco" at the site of the modern city.
44. Nakoni Nuu	K'itaish people	Waco	Flatland	Woods	K'itaish	Comanche name, taken from existing location map.
45. Tanimuu	K'itaish people	K'itaish	Flatland	Grassland	K'itaish	Comanche name, taken from existing location map.
46. Kitsai	K'itaish people	K'itaish	Flatland	Woods	K'itaish	Wichita name, taken from existing location map.
47. Taovaya San Teodoro (Sp.)	K'itaish people	K'itaish	Flatland	Woods	K'itaish	This was the location of a Taovaya Wichita village the Spanish tried and failed to attack following the attack on the San Saba mission. French explorer Athanase de Mézières named the settlements here as San Teodoro and San Bernardo (source).
48. Tawakoni	K'itaish people	K'itaish	Flatland	Grassland	K'itaish	Wichita name, taken from existing location map.
49. Yscani Le Dout (Fr.)	K'itaish people	K'itaish	Flatland	Grassland	K'itaish	Wichita tribe not yet included as a location. They had a village located roughly in this area during the 18th century. Fort Le Dout was an 18th century French trading post in this region.

50. Aays	none	K'itaish	Flatland	Grassland	K'itaish	Possibly a duplicate with Ayish. As far as I'm aware only Hudson places the Aays here, but there's such a lack of place names in North Texas it's probably fine.
51. Guichita San Bernardo (Sp.)	Kitkiti'sh people		Flatland	Woods	Kitkiti'sh	Wichita tribe not yet included as a location. They had a village across the Red River from the Taovayas. Athanase de Mézières named the villages here as San Teodoro and San Bernardo.
52. Nanatsoho	Kadawdáachuh		Flatland	Woods	Caddo	Kadohadacho village located north of the Red River in Oklahoma.

SOURCES
Aten, Lawrence E. Indians of the Upper Texas Coast. New York: Academic Press, 1983.

Foster, William C. Historic Native Peoples of Texas. Austin: University of Texas Press, 2008.

Perttula, Timothy K. Caddo Landscapes in the East Texas Forests. Oxbow Books, 2018.

Girard, Jeffrey S., Timothy K. Perttula, and Mary Beth D Trubitt. Caddo Connections: Cultural Interactions within and beyond the Caddo World. Lanham, MD: Rowman and Littlefield, 2014.

Hudson, Charles M. Knights of Spain, Warriors of the Sun: Hernando De Soto and the South's Ancient Chiefdoms. Revised paperback edition ed. Athens: University of Georgia Press, 2018.

Texas Beyond History

Texas State Historical Association: Handbook of Texas

This article from the Big Bend Sentinel for some Hill Country locations

The map on this page of the Caddo Nation's website

Different Caddo map from the Texas Standard

Wichita map from the Texas Observer

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Can we rename "Westsylvania" to Allegheny? The Allegheny Mountains and Allegheny River cover most of the region and are based on a native name.

 

[GalaxyEmperor]

Reading the part about the population of the Americas really caused me some worry. I can't say much in relation to North America, since I haven't read as much on it as I have on South America. (which is because I'm from Brazil).

My biggest issue is which the following point:

• 10.222M in South America

The reason for my concern for this is that the Amazon rainforest alone likely housed between eight to ten million people, with a complex network of cities and polities spread across the major rivers of the basin. This stems from a combination of recent archaeological research in the region as well as observations by early European explorers in the continent.

On the archaeology point, research using Lidar as well as tracking anthropogenic Terra Preta (black soils) has shown the size and complexity of pre-columbian civilization in the Amazon.

As far as we are aware Amazonian societies cultivated a great variety of crops, from casava, sweet potatoes, and maize to even entirely novel varieties of rice not seen domesticated outside the continent.

They are known to have dug hundreds of kilometers of canals, roads, and causeways connecting settlements, as well as cuts between rivers, fish weirs, and artificial ponds. They made use of a great variety of landscaping techniques to build their towns and cities on artificial mounds to protect themselves from the seasonal flooding of rivers across the region.

According to research dating back to at least 2013, we have had studies suggesting the population of the Amazon Basin was higher than 8 million people.

And recent studies have agreed that the population of the region likely leaned to a more optimistic estimate between 8 million and 10 million. Mid range estimates from the 1970, 1992, and 2015 put the population at the very least 6 to 8 million people.

The rainforest was no prestine garden paradise prior to colonization, the modern landscape of the forest is a rather recent development resultant of the collapse of native socities across the amazon as a result of european contact and the arrival of european diseases.

Having that in mind, it's also important to note that the Inca Empire alone had a population between 6 to 14 million people, most likely around 12 million people.

This means that the Amazon and Inca Empire together would have a population between 12 to 24 million, likely around 20 million, and that's without including the rest of the continent.

Aggregate studies of multiple population estimates puts the population of the entire continent at around 60 million people by 1492

But potentially as high as 112 Million people.

Such a low population of 10.2 Million people completely misrepresents the vibrant and diverse mosaic of South America pre-columbian societies, when the population of the Amazon alone could potentially match that number.

The European colonization of the continent killed as much as 10% of the global population and around 90% of the population of the Americas as a whole. South and North America together may have had a combined lower range population of over 110 Million people (although it's possible it may have reached 200 million), of which in a mere 5 million survived by 1650. I worry that this representation, as presented by this edition of Tinto Maps, may be unintentionally downplaying the effects that the colonization of the Americas played on the indigenous populations.

(I'd post links to the sources I'm using, but it wont let me post links).

 

[Demetrios]

Why are there wastelands here? The Maritimes in general are pretty flat and not 'impassable' by any standards. Some of these wastelands are literally farmland.
Eastern Canada in general has more wastelands than mountainous BC, which is hilarious; it's like Poland having more wasteland than Tibet

I'm not sure about central New Brunswick, but northern Maine is to this day virtually uninhabited, being a vast rugged forested area. Benedict Arnold managed to move a small army through the area to attack Quebec at the start of the American Revolution, but lost many of his men along the way and arrived at Quebec in terrible shape. People then and historians now were and are astonished he managed to do even that much.

 

[GalaxyEmperor]

Reading the part about the population of the Americas really caused me some worry. I can't say much in relation to North America, since I haven't read as much on it as I have on South America. (which is because I'm from Brazil).

My biggest issue is which the following point:

The reason for my concern for this is that the Amazon rainforest alone likely housed between eight to ten million people, with a complex network of cities and polities spread across the major rivers of the basin. This stems from a combination of recent archaeological research in the region as well as observations by early European explorers in the continent.

On the archaeology point, research using Lidar as well as tracking anthropocentric Terra Preta (black soils) has shown the size and complexity of pre-columbian civilization in the Amazon.

As far as we are aware Amazonian societies cultivated a great variety of crops, from casava, sweet potatoes, and maize to even entirely novel varieties of rice not seen domesticated outside the continent.

They are known to have dug hundreds of kilometers of canals, roads, and causeways connecting settlements, as well as cuts between rivers, fish weirs, and artificial ponds. They made use of a great variety of landscaping techniques to build their towns and cities on artificial mounds to protect themselves from the seasonal flooding of rivers across the region.

According to research dating back to at least 2013, we have had studies suggesting the population of the Amazon Basin was higher than 8 million people.

And recent studies have agreed that the population of the region likely leaned to a more optimistic estimate between 8 million and 10 million. Mid range estimates from the 1970, 1992, and 2015 put the population at the very least 6 to 8 million people.

The rainforest was no prestine garden paradise prior to colonization, the modern landscape of the forest is a rather recent development resultant of the collapse of native socities across the amazon as a result of european contact and the arrival of european diseases.

Having that in mind, it's also important to note that the Inca Empire alone had a population between 6 to 14 million people, most likely around 12 million people.

This means that the Amazon and Inca Empire together would have a population between 12 to 24 million, likely around 20 million, and that's without including the rest of the continent.

Aggregate studies of multiple population estimates puts the population of the entire continent at around 60 million people by 1492

But potentially as high as 112 Million people.

Such a low population of 10.2 Million people completely misrepresents the vibrant and diverse mosaic of South America pre-columbian societies, when the population of the Amazon alone could potentially match that number.

The European colonization of the continent killed as much as 10% of the global population and around 90% of the population of the Americas as a whole. South and North America together may have had a combined population of over 110 Million people, of which in a mere 5 million survived by 1650. I worry that this representation, as presented by this edition of Tinto Maps, may be unintentionally downplaying the effects that the colonization of the Americas played on the indigenous populations.

(I'd post links to the sources I'm using, but it wont let me post links).

Actually, managed to put the sources I used on a .txt file

 

[Demetrios]

So taking a look at the Pacific Northwest map a bit closer, there should definitely be more impassable land, not only in the Northern Cascades, as mentioned before, but along the Coastal Ranges in Washington, Oregon, and northern California. There should be an impassible zone in the middle of the Olympic Peninsula (none of those locations there should meet in the middle), and there should be significant impassible areas that should mostly separate the coastal provinces from the interior from Tillamook in the north to Tututni in the south (further south, there are actual impassible areas for the Coastal Ranges already in game). Yulalona - Chidkhu should remain open (as that would be the current US 199 corridor), and there should be a couple of other gaps (i.e. the US 20 route, which is hard to tell exactly which locations would be involved in that one! I think it's Kalapuya and southern Tillamook.). As for the Northern Cascades, the coastal provinces between Sah-ku-mehu in the south to at least Sko-ko-mish in the north (and any British Colombian can help out if that should be extended further north) should be cut off from the interior by impassible regions, with gaps for Skaggit - Chelan and Sto'lo - whatever the Vancouver area location is since it's too small to read.

 

[nyetflix2]

Here's a fairly imprecise suggestion for how the development map could look (feedback welcome):

In the east, it's based on the rough extent of agriculture, as well a few of the more significant mound sites (wasn't looking super deep, may have chosen the wrong ones) and the main clusters/corridors of Mississippian sites. I added in a bit of the PNW based on their "aquaculture" but any feedback on which sections would be relatively more developed there would be useful.

 

[Sparthane]

My Newfoundland location map suggestions:

The "interior" of Newfoundland was not settled until after this games timeline is done. The indigenous peoples moved around the island seasonally so there's no need for inland locations to be "settled". The long range mountain chain can be extended for that reason and the interior just be one wasteland; however you could have a corridor connecting the north to the south representing the seasonal movements of indigenous people. The related colors represent the provinces the locations should be in. If able you could add Meelpaeg Lake , Grand Lake and Beothuk lake to the map as well.

Green = Avalon
Blue = Akilasie waksik
Yellow = Long Range
Purple = Elmastukwek
Red = Nukamkia’ji’jk

I have provided indigenous (if available), English, and French names for each location. The indigenous names are in the Miqmaw language. The Beothuk people went extinct in 1829 and we only know 400 words of their language; none of them being location names. So the Miqmaw language is the best we have and should be consistently used across the island where possible.

Green Province

• Cape Spear
  • English: St. John’s
  • French: St. Jean
  • Harbour: Level 3/Deep bay
• Baccalieu > Baubooshrat (Beothuk word for fish)
  • English: Harbour Grace
  • French: Havre de Grâce
• Cape Race > Sape’wik
  • English: St. Mary’s
  • French: St. Marie
• Placentia > Rename to Pilsantek
  • English: Placentia
  • French: Plaisance
  • Harbor: Level 1/Bay

Blue Province

• Mollyhuajeck > fix to Malikujek
  • English: Bonavista
  • French: Bonnaventure
• Mekwlakajik
  • English: Greenspond
  • French: Touliguet
• Akilasie waksik
  • English: Twilingate
  • French: Fougue
• Walnaypek
  • English: Exploits
  • French: Notre Dame
• Baie Verte > rename to Kelusite’w
  • English: Partridge
  • French: Baie Verte

Orange Province

• Wipejkal
  • English: Englee
  • French: Boulitou
• Belle isle
  • English: St. Anthony
  • French: L’anse aux meadows
• Naskwwotchu
  • English: Point Rich
  • French: Port Au Choix
• Matapisk
  • English: Bonne Bay
  • French: La Belle

Purple Province

• Eimasteakwek > rename to Elmastukwek
  • English: Bay of Islands
  • French: Trois Isles
  • Harbor: Bay/ Level 1
• Kutapuskuj > rename to Nujio'qonik
  • English: St. Georges
  • French: Port au Port
• Epwikek > rename to Katalisk
  • English: Codroy
  • French: Anguille
• Gosaoie > rename to Sinalk
  • English: Cape Ray
  • French: Port – Aux - Basques
• Nogamsig > rename to Najioqonuk
  • English: Burgeo
  • French: Cap la Hune

Red Province

• Amassipukwek > rename to Saqskiek
  • English: Ramea
  • French: Francois
• Sibook > rename to Oqwatinipukwek
  • English: Hermitage
  • French: Bay D’ Espoir
• Maqreway > rename to Sibook
  • English: Merasheen
  • French: Audiere

^Couldnt post this text for some reason

References:

Seal "fishery":

I think as well, a couple of the provinces on the north coast could be changed to have wild game or furs as an RGO to represent this industry. It was mostly done for the meats but also had the value of obtaining the high value skins for sale.

 

[nyetflix2]

On the question of whether the Mississippians had state polities or not, this excerpt from
Cahokia: Domination and Ideology in the Mississippian World is interesting:

 

[Tritium666]

I'd also like some clarification on why Prince Rupert (I assume) is one of the best harbours in the world. I'd expect the whole northern BC coast to be mid-tier natural harbours, because they've got good protection in the form of fjords, but the terrain is mountainous. But it looks like Prince Rupert is max level and everything below it is 0.

 

[BirchTainer]

"Chochenyo" is the name of the language at the area, not the place. I think a better name would be Huichin, that only refers to the coast of the east bay though but it's better than the previous name.

 

[BirchTainer]

You seem to be missing a lot of large lakes including ,Lake Tahoe, Pyramid Lake, Flathead Lake, Yellowstone Lake, Utah Lake, Lake Pend Oreille, , Bear Lake, Klamath Lake and Calcasieu Lake. You included several lakes smaller than these on the map so I think they should be included.

 

[PersusjCP]

I would like to briefly offer my comments on the Pacific Northwest, as I'm working on a degree about Indigenous history in the Pacific Northwest, and I'm a speaker of one of these languages --


Societies of Pops:

• In the Pacific Northwest, societies there were definitely landed, and I would classify them as SoPs, but not settled. On the Northwest Coast, there was land ownership, as well as highly rigid class structures (the more north you go into Alaska even, the more rigid they get. In some cultures, they are so specific that there is a ranking down to the individual!) but no hierarchical structures akin to a state for being settled (this only came around in the early 19th century).
• People then in the region had permanent settlements which were inhabited since the first millenium CE and before, well before game start. There was recognized ownership of these sites and the surrounding area. Structures and areas were owned by those who built or worked them, which kept these communities relatively stable over time. One example of this is farming plots. Farming plots were measured out with barrier stones and passed down hereditarily through the female line. The Nooksack, for example, traditionally determined that someone was Nooksack by who owned plots of land at Nuxwsá7aq, their main farming area.
• I would make each of the locations (as described below) its own SoP. They were all independent from another, had alliances, warred, etc, and each society recognized its own existence around watershed lines (generally around the borders of how it is on the map presently).

Locations and Names:

• Clatsop: The Clatsop specifically owned only a section of that territory. More appropriately, it should be called (Lower) Chinook, although there is no native name as a whole as far as I know, but Chinookan linguistics isn't something I am very educated in.
• Taytnapam: It seems this is to represent the Cowlitz. Taidnapam is only associated with the Cowlitz post contact, when they became associated on the reservation. The Taidnapam/Taytnapam/etc. are actually a Sahaptin speaking group. The Cowlitz themselves are called the sƛʼpúlmš in their language. Possibly anglicized as Lʼepolms, although I might write it as Stlpulmsh.
• Chi Ke Lis: This seems to represent the Chehalis. I would not call it Chi Ke Lis, and instead would say Chehalis, as that is a more modernized spelling of the same word, c̓x̣íl̕əš.
• Chala At: This seems to represent the Quinault, Quileute, and Hoh together. The Quinault are a Salishan-speaking tribe, while the Quileute and Hoh are Chemakaun-speaking. It would be most accurate to separate the two, and I would change the spelling to be Chala'at, one word.
  
  (Where a Chala'at group could go. To the south could go the Quinault, and it would take up a little bit of the Makah.
• Makah: As I said, extends a little further south than I would describe it. Their Makah-language name is Qʷidiččaʔa•tx̌ - Qwidichcha'atx could be a possible anglicization although I have never seen this in the literature. Only Makah.
• S'Klallam: I would change to either S'Klallam or Klallam. The K is always capitalized in all three Klallam tribes.
• Twana: They only controlled the western half of that peninsula (Kitsap Peninsula) in the sound. The other half belonged to the Suquamish, or, in this case, the Puyallup.
• Suquamish: This is actually the territory of the Nisqually, and I would rename it to that.
• Puyallup: They partially owned areas on the peninsula so I would give the eastern section to them, again dividing it between the Twana and the Puyallup, straight down the middle.
• Snohomish: This is actually the rough territory of the Duwamish, the Snohomish are directly to their north, where the Sah-ku-me-hu (Sauk) are on the map.
• Sah-ku-me-hu: This is the territory of the Snohomish.
• Skagit: Looks good to me
• Lhaq'temish (?): On the San Juans, it is hard to tell exactly what the name is. At this point, the Lummi/Lhaq'temish did NOT control any part of the mainland. They only took it in the 18th century after famines decimated the Skalakhan. That belonged to the Skalakhan, a Nooksack (Nuwxsa'aq) speaking group.
• Nuxwsa'aq: As I said, the Nooksack controlled the mainland long before the Lummi/Lhaq'temish did.
• It's difficult to tell what is at the mouth of the Fraser delta.
• Saanich: looks good to me.
• I won't comment further north as I am not as familiar with the linguistics.

Provinces:

• Lushootseed: Should be Cascadia, really. At present, the province of "Cascadia" doesn't cover any of the actual Cascade Mountains, whereas the Lushootseed province is all along the North Cascades and generally seen as the "center" of Cascadia from my experience. Also, "Suquamish" location should be a part of this province.
• Cascadia: I'm not sure what a good name for this province would be. It's the Olympic peninsula. Maybe Olympics?

Areas:

• Pomo: I would rename this to Cascadia. This is almost perfectly aligned with the southern half of the Cascadia bioregion. Otherwise it could be called Pacific Northwest or maybe Lower Columbia or something.
• This is my own wish, but if the non-rockies part of "Columbia Interior" was given to athabaska, it would fulfill my dreams of uniting the Cascadia bioregion with Pomo/Cascadia, Columbia Interior, and Northwest Coast perfectly in the shape of the Cascadia bioregion.
• Pomo Sea: Maybe just American West Coast? I've never heard of the Pomo Sea.

Cultures:

• Lushoot: I honestly cannot tell if this is abbreviated or not. It should be Lushootseed. There isn't anything called Lushoot. Since it includes the Twana, Puget Salish might be better, but they are their own culture with their own language, separate from Lushootseed. Separating them would be the most accurate.
• Halkomelem: Saanich, Klallam, Lhaqtemish are all their own culture, called Straits Salish. Halkomelem only includes the Fraser River and parts of Vancouver Island.
• Chehalis: Rename to Tsamosan, as it includes the Quinault and Cowlitz. Tsamosan is the term for all of them combined. They are all pretty closely related and their languages likely diverged relatively recently.
• I would also create another for the Quileute/Hoh (Chala'at) as I described earlier. They have their own culture and language which isn't even related at all to the Salishan peoples in the area.

I would love to see these changes to make this region the most accurate for gameplay!! I am very excited to play these societies of pops, assuming that will eventually be in the game! Nevertheless, the work put into North America has clearly been massive. For detailed maps of the Northwest Coast peoples, I would definitely reccommend looking at Volume 7 of the Handbook of North American Indians. They are more clear than I am here!

 

[Mmklop_]

@Pavía Sorry for the at, but could we get a screenshot of the location map centered around oklahoma and arkansas? It's hard to evaluate it when it's broken up like that

 

[prinscky]

This might be little off the topic, but since most of us will interact with the America in a colonization manner, I'm more interested in the ocean current and trade winds stuff, like how long it takes to sail to North America from both ends of the Eurasia?