Tinto Talks #40 - 4th of December 2024

[Znikii]

It is that recognizing that they were explorers and giving them that capacity for that very reason is more debatable in general, we know that the exploration of the North Sea happened a long time ago, but it is not something that they had so present for a long time, Vinland failed more due to disinterest and lack of effort than due to the problems associated with colonization,

riiiight, and several centuries later much more advanced, populous and prosperous culturers had very hard time and tons of failours esteblishing colonies in much more comfrotable climates..... But the Nordic people jus failed cuz they didn't give a shit..... sure

And yes, even if exploration is only done for the porpous of trade, it is still exploration, done by adventeruous explorers.... I really don't see why people are making such a big deal out of it.

And Icelanders gave up on exploriring not because they lost interest in it, but because complete deforestation of Iceland by early 14. century made making ships practically and economically impossible. Fun fact Rapa Nui culture on Easter Islands on the other side of the planet did the same sucicide by missmanagment of their resources few centuries later. (btw are Rapa Nui on eastern islands playable tag? think they qualliffy for enough criteria to be considered a state society)

Now Norwegians with ample supply of lumber could very well still use iceland-geenland as staging grounds...

 

[ShadowGamerXXX]

riiiight, and several centuries later much more advanced, populous and prosperous culturers had very hard time and tons of failours esteblishing colonies in much more comfrotable climates..... But the Nordic people jus failed cuz they didn't give a shit..... sure

And yes, even if exploration is only done for the porpous of trade, it is still exploration, done by adventeruous explorers.... I really don't see why people are making such a big deal out of it.

And Icelanders gave up on exploriring not because they lost interest in it, but because complete deforestation of Iceland by early 14. century made making ships practically and economically impossible. Fun fact Rapa Nui culture on Easter Islands on the other side of the planet did the same sucicide by missmanagment of their resources few centuries later.

Now Norwegians with ample supply of lumber could very well still use iceland-geenland as staging grounds...

That's why I say it, my point is that both Iceland and Greenland could not explore nor did they want to, everything depended on their Norwegian lord, who had long since decided to focus on the Baltic and neglected the North Sea, it is no longer something that depends on the cultural memory that the sagas want to show, but something that at that point was almost abandoned, the only thing that is under the cultural impulse of these islands is to attract settlers to stabilize their situation (Something that Iceland actually did in the time period)

 

[Znikii]

That's why I say it, my point is that both Iceland and Greenland could not explore nor did they want to, everything depended on their Norwegian lord, who had long since decided to focus on the Baltic and neglected the North Sea, it is no longer something that depends on the cultural memory that the sagas want to show, but something that at that point was almost abandoned, the only thing that is under the cultural impulse of these islands is to attract settlers to stabilize their situation (Something that Iceland actually did in the time period)

my point was they wanted to, but coudnt afford. And Cultural memory staty for very very long time. And since fishing, trading and reaving was always important part of their economy, they never ever lost interest in exploring the seas. It wasnt abandoned, they just couldnt realize their goals in a scale they wanted to.
And since data shows that deforestation was complete in early 14. century, means that it just few decades till game start, so there is no way they would give up on theiur histroical traditions.
The impulse you are talking about was a process of colonization of hinterlands that's started in europe around 11.-12. century. People moving from overpopulated areas to places where there is still free land and no lord demanding their tax, that's all Iceland, and all poor and rugged places, could ever hope to offer.

 

[ShadowGamerXXX]

my point was they wanted to, but coudnt afford. And Cultural memory staty for very very long time. And since fishing, trading and reaving was always important part of their economy, they never ever lost interest in exploring the seas. It wasnt abandoned, they just couldnt realize their goals in a scale they wanted to.
And since data shows that deforestation was complete in early 14. century, means that it just few decades till game start, so there is no way they would give up on theiur histroical traditions.
The impulse you are talking about was a process of colonization of hinterlands that's started in europe around 11.-12. century. People moving from overpopulated areas to places where there is still free land and no lord demanding their tax, that's all Iceland, and all poor and rugged places, could ever hope to offer.

I disagree in part that their fishing traditions lead them to explore new lands knowing that they were in a good time for fishing in that area, the impulse that fishermen have to enter unknown seas is to look for schools of fish, but if they already have a place with large schools of fish and they do not have so much competition (Until the development and interest of countries in large-scale fishing in the North Sea), then they have little reason to explore.

I am pretty sure that attracting settlers is simply to promote their place as a place with free space to attract people who live in overpopulation or want to improve their conditions (If the nation from which they come allows it), which is what Iceland did throughout the period, just as it did not try to ask for support to continue trying, there was even no interest in recovering Greenland when it fell, that shows that they had already had considerable time with another thought (Trade in the Baltic) than the one that the sagas want to show (Explorers).

My concern is that if it is accepted that they have the ability to explore from the beginning, they should also apply it to quite a few nations throughout the world that share that, but that could trigger not only an Icelandic Canada, but an Indian or Arabian Southeast Asia, a Polynesian empire, among other things that follow the same logic, but both the limitations and the abstractions can cause meme-level situations, but in case that cannot be done (speaking more on the part of the AI and not the player) then I would not worry about exploration being unlocked from the beginning for all those who did that recently or have such ideas in their culture, but I think that the fall of Mali should be more or less scripted so as not to have a half-colonized Brazil at the time that the moment of colonization begins.

 

[livebythecreed77]

Sure, if you post a list of other European countries who have a cultural memory of reaching the Americas in 1337 I'll add the same modifier to them

St Brendan the Navigator would like a word!

 

[Znikii]

I disagree in part that their fishing traditions lead them to explore new lands knowing that they were in a good time for fishing in that area, the impulse that fishermen have to enter unknown seas is to look for schools of fish, but if they already have a place with large schools of fish and they do not have so much competition (Until the development and interest of countries in large-scale fishing in the North Sea), then they have little reason to explore.

I am pretty sure that attracting settlers is simply to promote their place as a place with free space to attract people who live in overpopulation or want to improve their conditions (If the nation from which they come allows it), which is what Iceland did throughout the period, just as it did not try to ask for support to continue trying, there was even no interest in recovering Greenland when it fell, that shows that they had already had considerable time with another thought (Trade in the Baltic) than the one that the sagas want to show (Explorers).

My concern is that if it is accepted that they have the ability to explore from the beginning, they should also apply it to quite a few nations throughout the world that share that, but that could trigger not only an Icelandic Canada, but an Indian or Arabian Southeast Asia, a Polynesian empire, among other things that follow the same logic, but both the limitations and the abstractions can cause meme-level situations, but in case that cannot be done (speaking more on the part of the AI and not the player) then I would not worry about exploration being unlocked from the beginning for all those who did that recently or have such ideas in their culture, but I think that the fall of Mali should be more or less scripted so as not to have a half-colonized Brazil at the time that the moment of colonization begins.

Those cultures should and probably will get same treatment. And why not? All of those cultures were adebt seafarers and thats the first thing you need. Even if all of ot started with simple fishing.
And fiahing in ocean waters is not easy nor simple.

Economic realities and oppurtunity costs comes later.
Sometime you cant get ismt all (new world colonies, trading in the baltic or pirating in the mediterenean. You can afford only one....

 

[PortDoubloon01]

I can see the people (me included) yearn for flavor, but what do we think of the underlying mechanics around reforms?

Something I have been thinking is that it seems reforms might be too easy to pass and not much more interactive than "pick your bonus" like EU4 ideas. For instance, a "religious tolerance" state reform effort should be strongly opposed by the Orthodox establishment in the Byzantine Empire, where politics was very much focused on maintaining a pure Orthodox state. I think it would be more interesting, realistic, and challenging if reforms were supported and contested by certain estates. This could be represented in different ways from a substantial opinion change to actual revolts over reform.

A fun example would be a "freedom of movement" reform for peasants (or another peasant right). It might be supported by the commoners and come with obvious economic bonuses. However, it would also cause a powerful nobility to revolt to stop the reform. It would be a satisfying gameplay loop if you either needed to ensure a weak/hyper-loyal nobility first or crush the noble revolt to pass such a reform. It would not be quite as satisfying if you could reform society with a button click and a 2 year ramp-up (I do like the ramp-up though).

Any thoughts on that idea?

EDIT: A simpler system might just be prerequisites for a reform (Noble satisfaction X, influence X). A big downside to either would be the AI's ability to handle it.

 

[ShadowGamerXXX]

Those cultures should and probably will get same treatment. And why not? All of those cultures were adebt seafarers and thats the first thing you need. Even if all of ot started with simple fishing.
And fiahing in ocean waters is not easy nor simple.

Economic realities and oppurtunity costs comes later.
Sometime you cant get ismt all (new world colonies, trading in the baltic or pirating in the mediterenean. You can afford only one....

My main concern is that the system may break in some places, my secondary concern is that only the sagas are taken into account to allow exploration but the ability is not given to the rest who also had such cultural ambition, if for one reason or another it is possible to avoid the formation of meaningless things and it seems plausible, not huge or early colonial empires, but in the cases that manage to survive it is seen that they are already beginning colonization in their nearby areas, following the example with Iceland, which has possession of Greenland and Vinland when the colonial era begins in the best of cases, for the same reason I hope that Mali has the opportunity to go colonial from the beginning, but has to face its possible fall (Something that I think will be more or less scripted).

In the end what I want most is for the game to make me choose itself, do I focus on the seas/lands that I already know?, or on the contrary, do I risk exploring new lands/seas?, even knowing that America exists and all the places where I can colonize, I have to choose and that this will impact me later, in EU4 you can choose where to go first, but this is not a problem, you just choose the order to complete your objectives, on the other hand I want to see that if I bet for a long time on the Baltic and end up dominating it, it will be quite complicated for me to go to colonize now, since I would have to reform everything I already have to try and not fail immediately, and vice versa.

 

[Ekyman]

Vinland failed more due to disinterest and lack of effort than due to the problems associated with colonization

OK? I don’t think we’re gonna agree on this, you see giving them the reform in the first place as saying they had active interest at that exact moment. I see the reform just being recognition of the capability and legacy and active interest is shown when the player decides to slot in the reform or actually do things.

only the sagas are taken into account to allow exploration but the ability is not given to the rest who also had such cultural ambition

Is there a reason to think it’s not? We haven’t seen the other unique reforms yet.

Anyone with a similar cultural memory should get similar a bonus, multiple people have already made that point. I don’t think anyone has opposed the idea that other countries could get the same thing, even if people might disagree on exactly which sometimes.

the hordes for their exploits traveling from Siberia to Eastern Europe,

the Andean nations for having begun the exploration of the mountain range recently,

The hordes already own much of that land and probably start with most if not all of Eurasia explored. The Andean nations probably start with at least a significant portion of the Andes explored. Exploration, both land and sea, represents exploration of distant lands, or lands across oceans, not exploration of the edge of your borders and not nomadism.

I also question if the Rus should get it, considering how long it’s been since they branched off and then not being connected to the cultures that we’re doing the exploring this is referencing.

Some of the others I could definitely see though. Polynesians in particular, if they end up with a settled nation to play as.

 

[ShadowGamerXXX]

The Andean nations probably start with at least a significant portion of the Andes explored. Exploration, both land and sea, represents exploration of distant lands, or lands across oceans, not exploration of the edge of your borders and not nomadism.

To clarify, the Andean nations were very different from the rest of the tribes of South America, it is not simple nomadism, they had been organized nations for some time, fighting for supremacy in the region (which would eventually form the Incas), the exploration they had was more to discover markets and establish tributaries in the mountain range, contrary to the cultural interest that we could debate about other nations, the Andean countries did not have a culture of explorers but rather began to do their explorations recently, since as kingdoms that they were (Equivalents rather) they sought expansion ... But there were no nations established around them to conquer, that is why they became explorers even if they did not have a tradition of being so, it would really be closer to a governmental reform contrary to what is shown here, which rather has more similarities with "national ideas" than with reforms themselves (It is not bad in itself).

 

[Ekyman]

To clarify, the Andean nations were very different from the rest of the tribes of South America, it is not simple nomadism, they had been organized nations for some time, fighting for supremacy in the region (which would eventually form the Incas), the exploration they had was more to discover markets and establish tributaries in the mountain range, contrary to the cultural interest that we could debate about other nations, the Andean countries did not have a culture of explorers but rather began to do their explorations recently, since as kingdoms that they were (Equivalents rather) they sought expansion ... But there were no nations established around them to conquer, that is why they became explorers even if they did not have a tradition of being so, it would really be closer to a governmental reform contrary to what is shown here, which rather has more similarities with "national ideas" than with reforms themselves (It is not bad in itself).

Yeah, the nomadism wasn’t a reference to the Andes. But remember that we don’t know what starting vision will look like. I sort of suspect that an Andean country would be able to see at least most of the Andes already, if not further. I read hiring explorers as being mostly a reference to distant exploration, not just seeing what’s a few mountains over from your borders. Maybe I’m wrong about that though.

 

[Bisonmask]

The player Iceland starts as a vassal of Norway. Greenland will probably also not be independent.

You can see how that's worse right? Every player Norway is now going to use whatever exploit possible to ensure Iceland finds the new world and shares visibility with them

If you're fine with Norway being the first to the new world I guess there's nothing to complain about but I'd really like people to understand this will probably end in Norway being able to race Portugal to the New World

 

[AndPimentel]

That's fine. Flavor doesn't have to be optimal. Play doesn't have to be optimal in general.

Yeah, I agree. However, I really hope that you spend something like 5 years of income to explore and settle on Newfoundland as Iceland and then Norway just comes and annexes you for being stupid.

And even when you succeed (1 out of 100 times, hopefully), the colony will be a sinkhole for another 100 years.

 

[ShadowGamerXXX]

Yeah, the nomadism wasn’t a reference to the Andes. But remember that we don’t know what starting vision will look like. I sort of suspect that an Andean country would be able to see at least most of the Andes already, if not further. I read hiring explorers as being mostly a reference to distant exploration, not just seeing what’s a few mountains over from your borders. Maybe I’m wrong about that though.

There we would encounter another theme regarding exploration, which is the enormous difficulty of exploring certain terrains, such as mountains and jungles (speaking of the Andean nations...), which turned out to be a rather large obstacle until almost the Victorian era, the thought during most of the game was: "I'm going to go around this...", that is why India could not see almost the steppes and for the same reason the Mongol empire only managed to take over the region of Persia, but the Incas managed to create a system to map the mountainous terrain and establish natural paths in the lands where they were exploring.

Contrary to popular thought, we know thanks to the Catholic missionaries who preserved and translated their texts, that at the time they knew no one but themselves and that it was not until the beginning of the game that they began to explore the mountain range, reaching as far north as southern Colombia (being very conservative) or as far as Panama (being very speculative) and as far south as a good part of Chile.

PS: It should be noted that one thing is that they knew and had explored the region, and another thing was that they possessed the region... Although it is true that when they unified in the Inca Empire they managed to obtain some tributaries in the north.

 

[ProfessionalRat]

The scandophilia in development is getting out of hand lmao

First the military revolution in Sweden (it was Dutch) and now explorers and bonuses to colonization to a culture that failed every attempt at colonization after the initial discovery of Greenland in the 980s (350! Years before the start of the game.) I get you’re Swedish devs but come on

But I hear you say, Iceland had the ability to explore in EU4, too! Ignoring the fact it was not independent at game start and usually didn’t gain independence during the course of the entire players game.

 

[King of Zoot]

Will Mali have an exploration reform as they tried to discover the Americas just prior to the start date

 

[Goran42069]

Will Mali have an exploration reform as they tried to discover the Americas just prior to the start date

Ngl they should just add a "ahistorical" setting that enables stuff like this.

 

[yangzilata]

Will Mali have an exploration reform as they tried to discover the Americas just prior to the start date

Exploration Reform for Mali? Historical or Alternate History?

Hey everyone, saw the idea of Mali having an exploration reform because Abu Bakr II supposedly tried to discover the Americas before the game’s start date. Thought it’d be cool to chat about this and figure out if it’s more historical or a fun ‘what if’ scenario.

What’s the Historical Basis?​

The idea stems from al-Umari’s accounts, which suggest that Abu Bakr II, one of Mali’s rulers, might have set out on an ambitious expedition across the Atlantic Ocean. It’s a fascinating concept—imagine Mali’s immense wealth and ambition driving a bold exploration attempt!

But… here’s the reality:

1. The Account is Unverified: Al-Umari’s account was written much later, and it seems more like a legend than hard history. We don’t have independent sources or Malian oral traditions to back it up.
2. No Evidence: If there was a Malian fleet that attempted such a journey, there’s no archaeological or cultural proof. It’s still an intriguing mystery.
3. Tech Limitations: Mali was great at river navigation (think Niger River trade routes!), but making a transatlantic journey would’ve been a big leap without the kind of ships the Europeans had later on.

Should It Be in the Game?​

From a historical standpoint, giving Mali an exploration reform might seem a bit far-fetched. But this story opens up some cool alternate-history possibilities. What if Abu Bakr’s fleet had actually succeeded, or if Mali’s rulers had invested in maritime exploration earlier? The game could reflect that as a “what could’ve been” scenario, adding some depth to Mali’s gameplay.

Aligning an Exploration Reform with 1337​

The supposed voyages of Abu Bakr II would have happened much earlier—likely around 1311, according to al-Umari’s account. By 1337, Mansa Musa, the famous ruler of Mali, had already been in power for years and made his legendary pilgrimage to Mecca in 1324, showing off Mali’s wealth to the world.

If we’re going to have this reform, it should:

1. Acknowledge the Timeline: The reform could be tied to a decision or event that reflects the legacy of Abu Bakr II’s ambitions. For example:
   • “Revive the Dream of Abu Bakr” decision: Maybe players can dedicate resources to a hypothetical naval program inspired by his story, adding an alternate-history twist.
   • Trigger conditions could include certain levels of wealth or technology to fit with Mali’s historical strengths like trade and resource gathering.
2. Be an Alternate Path: Instead of suggesting Mali was actively exploring the Americas at the game’s start, it could be a player-driven divergence. Picture stabilizing Mali’s trade routes, boosting wealth, and investing in coastal infrastructure—then the option for exploration reforms unlocks as a reflection of those choices.
3. Logical Benefits:
   • Boost naval capabilities or allow for limited colonization opportunities.
   • Tie exploration to Mali’s trade focus—maybe connecting them to North/Middle/South Africa, the Mediterranean, or even the Atlantic coast.

Does This Fit 1337 Mali? Not really—Mansa Musa and his successors were more about consolidating Mali’s power in West Africa. But in terms of gameplay, this reform could be a fun way to explore a what if scenario without breaking immersion. It wouldn’t suggest that Mali was actively seeking the Americas in 1337 but let players reimagine that ambition based on Abu Bakr II’s legacy.

If this reform is included, it should acknowledge that by 1337, any exploration idea would be more about reviving or expanding on a past dream than something Mali was actively doing. What do you all think?

 

[eduhum]

Not super related to this dev diary, but IMHO, Societies of Pops should be renamed to Pop Colletives / Collectivities.

This is so as, from a philosophical / ideological perspective, not all types of formal and informal organizations of multiple individuals are societies.

The English language doesn't have the etymological intuition of what consitutes a society, as it's a latin word, but it comes from the word socium. In Spanish, we still say the word Socio commonly, and it normally means Partner, as in business partner.

The word Society is contraposed to the word Community. This is relevant politically, as it is the original point of the division between socialists and communists.

In a theoretical/original perspective, Society refers more to a collectivity based on the following key words: friendship, business matters, professionalism, utopianism, goals, objectives, and masculinity.

On the other hand, Community refers more to a collectivity based on the following key words: blood, tribe, family, rearing of children, homeland control, life cycles, tradition, and femininity.

Many so called 'societies of pops' in Project Caesar are pre state tribal collective groups, and technically are not correctly categorized as societies. The term Collective or Collectivity can better act as an umbrella word.

Salutacions des de Sant Cugat panas basats!

 

[Admiral Boysen]

Why is the value drift from family sagas so tiny? Every other value dirft is +0,10 but family sagas are +0,01.