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Tinto Maps #30 - 20th of December 2024 - South America

Hello and welcome to one Friday of map-loving! Today is special, as our 30th Tinto Maps, devoted to South America, is the last regular one. This implies that it won’t be the last, though - we plan to have two Tinto Maps Extra on December 27th and January 3rd, and then we will continue with the Tinto Maps Feedback posts as we progress with the map review.

But don’t worry, as on the first post-Christmas Friday, January 10th, I will start a new series, Tinto Flavor, in which we will show the content that we have been working on for Project Caesar. And I promise you, it’s a ton of content, so you will have to play the game in due time to discover it all…

Before we continue, one note: as we're covering a lot of lands today, don't be shy and ask for more detailed maps of the type you want wherever you want them, and I'll try to provide in the replies. And now, let’s start with the South American maps:

Countries
Countries1.png

Countries2.png

Countries3.png

Most of the countries that can be considered being at a State-wise level in 1337 are mostly concentrated in what is today Perú. We have famous ones, as the Chimu or Chincha, and you may also see a tiny country, Qusqu, which would later become the Inca Empire, the long-term goal while playing in the region.

Dynasties
Dynasties1.png

Dynasties2.png


SoPs
Sops1.png

Sops2.png

Sops3.png

Sops4.png

Sops5.png

There are SoPs spread out all across the continent, making for a really interesting mix in the Peruvian area (again). We're already thinking about how to better visualize the coexistence of these two types of countries in the political layer, but it's going to take us some more time to get there.

Locations
Locations1.png

Locations2.png

Locations3.png

Locations4.png

Locations5.png

One note: I'll talk a bit more in-depth about the design of the Brazilian locations if you scroll down, in the Terrain section.

Provinces
Provinces1.png

Provinces2.png

Provinces3.png


Areas
Areas1.png

Areas2.png


Terrain
Climate.png

Topography.png

Vegetation.png

There are huge geographical variations in South America, being one of the most diverse continents. One of the things I wanted to discuss is that we've tried to portray the Mata Atlântica, the original forest cover that was present in Brazil before the Portuguese colonized it, and a different type of land exploitation started. In this regard, we've been reading the feedback of the Brazilian community, and I want to say that our intention here is to portray the most realistic situation for 1337. That said, we've already internally discussed that we may reduce its scope, so it doesn't look so extreme, but we'd like to hear your opinions about it. And here you have one of the images that we used as a reference for it, so you get a good grasp of our intention:
Mata Atlantica.png

Development
Development.png


Natural Harbors
Harbors1.png

Harbors2.png


Culture
Cultures1.png

Cultures2.png

Cultures3.png

Cultures4.png

Cultures5.png

Cultures6.png

The jewel of the crown in this region. We've tried to portray the Pre-Columbian cultural diversity of these lands as accurately as possible, and, well, here you have the results.

Languages
Languages1.png

Languages2.png

Languages3.png

And the languages that group these cultures.

Religions
Religions1.png

Religions2.png

Religions3.png

We've tried to do our best to group the cultural religions of South America into different groups, based on common believes, gods, rituals, etc. Let us know what do you think of them. Oh, also, the Inti religion has its own differentiate mechanics, which we'll explain in the future!

Raw Goods
Raw Materials1.png

Raw Materials2.png

Raw Materials3.png

Raw Materials4.png

Lots of different natural resources in South America. You may note that some are more common compared to other regions (such as Medicaments). We've also been tweaking the color of different resources, with the help of your feedback!

Markets
Markets.png

The green market is centered around Teyuna, and the red one is Chinchay.

Population
Some issues with the map of the region this week (sadly), so let's discuss the numbers. The total in the continent is 10.22M, divided this way:
  • 1.66M in Colombia
  • 1.2M in Brazil
  • 5.07M in Andes
  • 877K in Chaco
  • 1.4M in La Plata
And that's all for today! We hope that you enjoyed the Tinto Maps series! We've definitely done, and it's also greatly helping us to make Project Caesar a much better game, with your help and feedback. Cheers!
 
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As a brazilian player I am very unsatisfied about how large/expansive the wastelands on the South, Southeast and Northeast regions of Brazil are. Some of our most populated states and municipalities of the modern day have been turned into wastelands that, according to the game's logic, are as uninhabitable as the Amazon Rainforest when that was very clearly not the case during the game's timespan (early modern period). It's true that most of the population lived on the coast (and a great portion still do to this day) by the 1800s, but to represent such large areas as wastelands is ludicrous.

I think the wastelands should be much more similar to what was done with the Appalachian Mountains - instead of large chunks of uninhabitable area, make only the high peaks, mountain ranges and the coastal escarpments (like the Serra do Mar) actually wastelands, with the rest of the terrain being hills, mountains or plateaus. It should absolutely be possible to move armies around the Southeast and South regions of Brazil, not to mention colonize and develop those locations. The most populous state of Brazil, São Paulo, is 70% wastelands? Blasphemy, I say! Armies can't climb a mountain vertically but the terrain and the vegetation is not steep or dense enough to be a wasteland. It did not stop those regions from being colonized, the natives from being killed or assimilated, nor the jungle (yes, jungle, not forest or woods) of the Mata Atlântica for being deforested!

OH, speaking of plateaus - Brazil doesn't have any? That's so weird because I can find so many articles and mentions of the Brazilian Plateau with a quick google search! Even weirder that I'm living in a region that is one, and it's being represented on the map as flatland - in fact, most of the Brazilian Plateau is flatland. They should've told me, I'm walking uphill and downhill very steep roads to work everyday! Jokes aside, really, what's with all this flatland in Minas Gerais? Why not a plateau? Note: the article I linked to does calls it 'Highlands' instead, but most of the brazilian population and academics call it a plateau because it's flat, yes, but at least a kilometer above sea level.

I'll be making a dedicated post later today sharing ample feedback as well as counter-proposals to these extensive wastelands in the Brazil South, Southeast and Northeast regions, but for now that is all.

Edit: Oh yea, the Amazon Rainforest, too. Forgot to talk about it. There should absolutely be locations, or at the very least corridors, that connect it to Peru and Rondônia. Actually, most of the tributaries of the Amazon River should have locations! They were explored in the game's timespan as well as were inhabitated by natives (some of which still inhabit the area today!). I understand navigable rivers are out of the question so I won't press you on that, but the tributaries of the Amazon River should be included as locations or, at the very least, corridors! Others have mentioned that the expedition of Orellana happen within the timeframe of the game and I agree that it should allow reflected in-game by allowing armies to pass through the Amazon Rainforest through specific locations or corridors.
 
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Wake up mum! Wake up dad! SantaDaveUK has visited!

Lumber12.42%
Livestock10.99%
Wild Game10.19%
Fish8.96%
Wheat5.84%
Fur4.83%
Legumes3.94%
Wool3.25%
Rice2.81%
Fruit2.75%
Sturdy Grains2.48%
Cotton2.35%
Stone2.28%
Fiber Crops2.11%
Clay2.03%
Iron1.90%
Maize1.80%
Salt1.79%
Horses1.64%
Sand1.32%
Gold1.19%
Wine1.09%
Medicaments1.04%
Copper0.98%
Dates0.86%
Spices0.69%
Gems0.61%
Silk0.61%
Silver0.60%
Ivory0.56%
Marble0.47%
Lead0.44%
Tea0.44%
Coal0.43%
Sugar0.43%
Dyes0.42%
Olives0.40%
Pearls0.39%
Tin0.37%
Alum0.36%
Elephants0.34%
Tobacco0.28%
Soybeans0.27%
Cocoa0.23%
Incense0.16%
Saltpeter0.16%
Mercury0.15%
Amber0.15%
Potatoes0.13%
Coffee0.07%
I feel like gold should be more rare than silver... and copper
 
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Reactions:
Wake up mum! Wake up dad! SantaDaveUK has visited!

Lumber12.42%
Livestock10.99%
Wild Game10.19%
Fish8.96%
Wheat5.84%
Fur4.83%
Legumes3.94%
Wool3.25%
Rice2.81%
Fruit2.75%
Sturdy Grains2.48%
Cotton2.35%
Stone2.28%
Fiber Crops2.11%
Clay2.03%
Iron1.90%
Maize1.80%
Salt1.79%
Horses1.64%
Sand1.32%
Gold1.19%
Wine1.09%
Medicaments1.04%
Copper0.98%
Dates0.86%
Spices0.69%
Gems0.61%
Silk0.61%
Silver0.60%
Ivory0.56%
Marble0.47%
Lead0.44%
Tea0.44%
Coal0.43%
Sugar0.43%
Dyes0.42%
Olives0.40%
Pearls0.39%
Tin0.37%
Alum0.36%
Elephants0.34%
Tobacco0.28%
Soybeans0.27%
Cocoa0.23%
Incense0.16%
Saltpeter0.16%
Mercury0.15%
Amber0.15%
Potatoes0.13%
Coffee0.07%
No wonder there's a forecasted coffee price hike for 2025... (I can already feel the jitters)
 
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I really wished the amazon was less covered in wasteland. I think it is pretty clear from the travels like that of Francisco de Orellana that the amazon river was inhabited and navigatable. I think there should be a land connection al the way to ecuador along the river.
 
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Commenting again to state that I think in part this portrayal of the Mata Atlântica is based on a misunderstanding of what the forest is. It is not an expanse of wilderness or pristine virgin forest, or an untraversable mass of wildlife but a manipulated environment that could be traversed, especially by the indigenous locals that knew it and later by the various expeditionary forces and mercenaries who learned from the indigenous, through commerce, diplomacy, slavery and warfare. It was also a very cultivated environment. It had been home to human habitation since the Pleistocene, and was deliberately kept a certain way by the indigenous people that lived in it, which best fit their specific form of slash-and-burn agriculture.

A lot of people are criticising the portrayal for completely ignoring colonial settlement but more importantly it completely ignores also the indigenous people who were there. Human presence was more noticeable in certain parts of the forest in 1492 than it was in 1750.

When Europeans arrived, they did not struggle to devastate the Mata Atlântica. The only truly surviving stretches of forest that remained were in the less accessible mountainous parts of the Serra do Mar and other peaks.

I got some sources in English this time:
https://mz.usp.br/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Galetti-et-al.pdf which has a chapter that is also present here https://www.researchgate.net/public...y_From_Pre-colonial_Times_to_the_Anthropocene
oxfordre.com/latinamericanhistory/display/10.1093/acrefore/9780199366439.001.0001/acrefore-9780199366439-e-1190
 
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Once again asking for "potatoes" to be replaced with "tubers", their presence here makes it even more apparent that cassava, yams, sweet potatoes, taro, and other root vegetables are missing when they were and still are critical to the lives of billions of people living in the tropics
if they abstract potatoes to tubers then definitely a few provinces in Hispaniola need to have that as a resource.
 
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See, Rio totally cut off from Minas Gerais! See the below map! Gold was a tremendous draw for Portugal. In the 18th century, sites like Ouro preto and Diamantina in Minas Gerais were centers of gold exploration, and Roayl Roads were set up to transport this gold to the coast to Paraty and Rio de Janeiro. Please consider at least this in the feedback, because this was a major facotr in colonization.
1734711748959.png
 
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yippee, I live in a wasteland!

Right, there are many things to talk about, and I will try to put together some more proper, sourced feedback later, if no one else has gotten to it before.
Some points definitely stick out immediately about Brazil, though:

1. The Mata Atlânticas wastelands are excessive. I joked about living in one, but more pressing is the fact they cover over several settlements established during the game's time period, which should be pretty damning regarding their wastelandiness.
2. Paranaguá barely being a blip on the natural harbours maps is curious. It's one of the largest ports in Brazil today, though practically all of that development came beyond the game's timeframe. Still, I'd have figured it might have a bit more.
3. There's a remarkably small amount of gold in the bits of Brazil that rather famously pulled so much gold out of the ground that they got named after all that mining. Part of the problem here is the overreaching wastelands again - Minas Gerais would be one of the richest, most populated areas of the country late into the game's period, yet when I tried to look at it I had to piece it together from the corners of screenshots because it's been wastelanded so much. On the gold point, there should be some gold in southern Brazil, too, but the specific there demands more locations inland.
4. The cultures are, at a glance, nice to see. The languages are perhaps a bit too large, even for representations of language continua, but I simply don't know enough here to say if the tupi-guarani and jê monoliths should be broken up. I'd imagine that the southern jê peoples should not have the same religion as their guarani neighbours, but this is a minor point. No, the problem with the brazilian natives on this map is the overehelming lack of SoPs. The tupi-guarani cultures were agricultural, semi-nomadic, and at least the coastal and guarani ones asure had chiefs who damn well commanded the authority to make deals with and organise warring against the castillians and portuguese! I do not understand why so few made the cut there. The jê are fine in not having SoPs, as they were primarily hunter-gatherers.

I am, on the whole, disappointed with the state of the brazilian map, but very happy we'll have the opportunity to opine on it.

Now, I must go have lunch then come back to read the drama...
 
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I'm brazilian, the Mata Atlântica being a wasteland makes absolute no sense for me, it was full of indigenous life, and when the portuguese came it was even more! the bandeirantes expeditionaries openend their way there in search of gold, slaves and suitable places to settle, both portuguese and natives cut the hell out of those trees making the way it is today, many important cities were founded in the area of the wasteland in the 17th,18th centuries because of the brazilian gold rush, and other mining and farming settlements (wich i assume the game will portrait too), but the wasteland you guys made cover almost of all the Minas Gerais and São Paulo states where those cities are, two states extremely important the the colony economy (all the way to the empire period, to this very day). The Mata Atlântica is a completly different of the amazon, it's waaay much more suitable for human settlements and less hasher, and making it a complete uncolonizable, impassible area on the map does not represent reality.
 
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Wake up mum! Wake up dad! SantaDaveUK has visited!

Lumber12.42%
Livestock10.99%
Wild Game10.19%
Fish8.96%
Wheat5.84%
Fur4.83%
Legumes3.94%
Wool3.25%
Rice2.81%
Fruit2.75%
Sturdy Grains2.48%
Cotton2.35%
Stone2.28%
Fiber Crops2.11%
Clay2.03%
Iron1.90%
Maize1.80%
Salt1.79%
Horses1.64%
Sand1.32%
Gold1.19%
Wine1.09%
Medicaments1.04%
Copper0.98%
Dates0.86%
Spices0.69%
Gems0.61%
Silk0.61%
Silver0.60%
Ivory0.56%
Marble0.47%
Lead0.44%
Tea0.44%
Coal0.43%
Sugar0.43%
Dyes0.42%
Olives0.40%
Pearls0.39%
Tin0.37%
Alum0.36%
Elephants0.34%
Tobacco0.28%
Soybeans0.27%
Cocoa0.23%
Incense0.16%
Saltpeter0.16%
Mercury0.15%
Amber0.15%
Potatoes0.13%
Coffee0.07%

Nice! Is this the whole world or just South America?
 
Alright so there is quite a few points I am really disappointed by:

(1) The wasteland seteup in Brazil, which has been already mentioned in the comments.
(2) Just yesterday I was watching this documentary about a rich network of settlements in the Amazon:

View attachment 1233710(https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-018-03510-7)

The Amazonian basin was by no means a pristine wilderness, but rather a carefully-maintained garden
Yeah sorry to disappoint but the chances of this stuff being represented in game is near 0. Lidar archeology(let alone actual hands on stuff) of the region is still just way too early doors for the Amazon to be covered in game with a goal to make it full of cities. Maybe for Project Caesar 2 electric boogaloo there'll be enough work to change the representation of that region but for PC I don't think there's near enough data collected to be used. It's a game not an archeology journal.
 
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Wake up mum! Wake up dad! SantaDaveUK has visited!

Lumber12.42%
Livestock10.99%
Wild Game10.19%
Fish8.96%
Wheat5.84%
Fur4.83%
Legumes3.94%
Wool3.25%
Rice2.81%
Fruit2.75%
Sturdy Grains2.48%
Cotton2.35%
Stone2.28%
Fiber Crops2.11%
Clay2.03%
Iron1.90%
Maize1.80%
Salt1.79%
Horses1.64%
Sand1.32%
Gold1.19%
Wine1.09%
Medicaments1.04%
Copper0.98%
Dates0.86%
Spices0.69%
Gems0.61%
Silk0.61%
Silver0.60%
Ivory0.56%
Marble0.47%
Lead0.44%
Tea0.44%
Coal0.43%
Sugar0.43%
Dyes0.42%
Olives0.40%
Pearls0.39%
Tin0.37%
Alum0.36%
Elephants0.34%
Tobacco0.28%
Soybeans0.27%
Cocoa0.23%
Incense0.16%
Saltpeter0.16%
Mercury0.15%
Amber0.15%
Potatoes0.13%
Coffee0.07%
Nice! Thanks a bunch!

It does feel like a lot of gold (more than dates or wine) and gems :oops:
 
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