Tinto Maps #30 - 20th of December 2024 - South America

[darkzullxd]

I think that some provinces in the north of Colombia that I think look a little strange, such as Kuna, Sinú and Nechí, should be better organized so that they coincide more with the current limits of the departments.

 

[Deleted user]

Why do areas outside of centralized states have such low development? These areas had been settled and cultivated for years as with areas such as costal Ecuador and much of the Peruvian Andes having agricultural and monument building civilizations which were still around at this time, so the fact that the development is so low in these areas makes little sense. While these areas don't have to have a high development it would be nice to see them have a higher development then they do currently. Also the Amazon had recently gone through a bit of a collapse still had more development then shown around the river this is also helped by the use of Terra Preta. For more information on the Amazon see the book 1491.

 

[pCWentY]

One note. When depicting these types of corridors, a standard we use is 'Could an army with cannons and supply wagons cross it?', because that's a possible behavior in the game that we want to take care of. So, even if Orellana managed to go downstream the Amazon with 50 men, it doesn't necessarily mean that a colonial army could use the same route, which is an extra reason not to portray it, not even as a corridor.

Tinto Talks #2 - March 6th, 2024

Welcome to the second week of Tinto Talks, where I talk about the design we have for our new top secret game, which we refer to as “Project Caesar.” Today we’ll delve into everyone's favorite topic, MAPS! Let's begin with the projection we chose...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

“The third is what we call an “impassable wasteland,” which can be used to describe parts of Sahara, Greenland, or other places where hardly any people live even today. We also use these types for the majority of the water covering the oceans.

Finally, we have what we currently call “passages.” These are land locations that can not be settled by anyone, but can still be traversed by an army, with some insanely heavy attrition, or allow trade to pass through. Think of passages across the Saharan desert.”

Perhaps crossing the Amazon rainforest is （much） more difficult than crossing the Sahara Desert, but it is still necessary to add some passages.

And in fact, many wastelands have been inhabited not only today, but also in ancient times……

 

[Apukispay]

One note. When depicting these types of corridors, a standard we use is 'Could an army with cannons and supply wagons cross it?', because that's a possible behavior in the game that we want to take care of. So, even if Orellana managed to go downstream the Amazon with 50 men, it doesn't necessarily mean that a colonial army could use the same route, which is an extra reason not to portray it, not even as a corridor.

Are there instances of armies with supply wagons and cannons crossing the Sahara from north to south?

 

[viola]

The lack of settled states in the Andes concerns me as well. They're depicted as a bunch of statelets surrounded by "uncolonized" lands and SoPs, but... Aren't Andean societies way more ancient than Mesoamerican ones? And yet they're seemingly closer to what I'd expect the developed parts of North America to look like rather than, arguably, the most develop area of the Americas?

 

[Kazanov]

The lack of settled states in the Andes concerns me as well. They're depicted as a bunch of statelets surrounded by "uncolonized" lands and SoPs, but... Aren't Andean societies way more ancient than Mesoamerican ones? And yet they're seemingly closer to what I'd expect the developed parts of North America to look like rather than, arguably, the most develop area of the Americas?

The Tawantinsuyu was the greatest local Empire on the Americas until the rise of the United States in the XIX century. Mostly because most places were already developed and they added these lands to their growing empire.

 

[grandadmiralbob]

Hope this isn't a stupid question, but why so few nations on the eastern coast? Just curious if they were not that populated.

 

[Kazanov]

I don't get the Societies of Pops concept, ok.

But...1337...and....in 2024..the Mapuche have never unified themselves under the rule of one man/power, it goes against their identity. They would never be "one society" not yesterday, not today, not in the year 2300, it's not because they are not able to do it due to external influence, it's because it's a core element of their identity.

In times of war some of them would band together to fight against a common threat, but that happened a few times in history and for almost their entire history they were divided according to traditional, geographic and even situational factors. Even the "Mapuche" term is ahistorical.

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

Awesome work. Can we see a close up of the location map in what is modern-day Colombia?

 

[pCWentY]

Tinto Talks #2 - March 6th, 2024

Welcome to the second week of Tinto Talks, where I talk about the design we have for our new top secret game, which we refer to as “Project Caesar.” Today we’ll delve into everyone's favorite topic, MAPS! Let's begin with the projection we chose...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

“The third is what we call an “impassable wasteland,” which can be used to describe parts of Sahara, Greenland, or other places where hardly any people live even today. We also use these types for the majority of the water covering the oceans.

Finally, we have what we currently call “passages.” These are land locations that can not be settled by anyone, but can still be traversed by an army, with some insanely heavy attrition, or allow trade to pass through. Think of passages across the Saharan desert.”

Perhaps crossing the Amazon rainforest is much more difficult than crossing the Sahara Desert, but it is still necessary to add some passages.

I think the Amazon map of CK3's AtE mod is a good example

 

[Bluehunter]

The humboldt current hits the Arica bend so those locations along Peru's southern coast is very rich in maritime life (true also for most of pacific south america). From an economic perspective, the peruvian coastal communities traded much with the highland, for vegetables and other goods in exchange for what they catched. Therefore fishing was essential to the prosperity of these places, which is emphasised by them worshipping "Mama Cocha" which you may include for more in depth content regarding religion:

Mama Qucha - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So for trade goods I'd put more weight into that coastal area producing far more maritime goods than cotton, clay and legumes.

 

[Kazanov]

I think the Amazon map of CK3's AtE mod is a good example
View attachment 1233970

That mod uses that proyection? Incredible, 10/10

 

[juanfegonzalezce]

I think that some provinces in the north of Colombia that I think look a little strange, such as Kuna, Sinú and Nechí, should be better organized so that they coincide more with the current limits of the departments.

Or at least that they coincide with major natural borders, such as the Magdalena River or the Serranía del Perijá or the Cauca River. Coincidentially, or maybe not, these natural borders marked the limits between various indigenous groups, as well as later on they also marked the borders of the colonial provinces that made up the Viceroyalty of New Granada and, thus, the Colombian departments that followed later on.

I would suggest using the limits of the provinces of the Viceroyalty of New Granada for the areas and/or provinces. The same with the Viceroyalty of the Río de la Plata.

 

[eruntano22]

I think there has already been enough responses about the very poor representation of Brazil in this thread, but one thing that people have not harped on enough is the complete lack of any cassava on the map. To this day cassava is one of the most important staples in the Brazilian diet and it was *the* food that most indigenous societies subsisted on. In some cultures, the cassava was even considered sacred. Having a cassava trade good might be excessively granular, but some sort of representation for root vegetables like cassava, yams and taro is a must. These vegetables were the lifeblood of communities across the world, from Brazil to West Africa to Papua to Polynesia. I'm sorry to say, but it really comes off as a Eurocentric to only have potatoes as a trade good because this was the root that Europeans took back and became obsessed with. I can understand that this might warrant potatoes being a separate good, but the Portuguese took cassava to Asia and now tapioca pearls are a staple in Southeast Asian cuisine. The boba in bubble tea that has spread like a fad across the US and Europe is literally cassava that went from Brazil to Asia and back to the Americas. It is a fascinating vegetable and deserves some sort of representation in-game.

As a bonus, I suggest all of you to find a Brazilian restaurant and try farofa, a very typical dish which is made from cassava flour.

 

[hytth]

1. I feel as though there could be more province density. Too many individual locations are needlessly blobby.

2. The Amazon Rainforest could be broken up more. It's a little off putting being a gigantic gray wasteland blob.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I sadly don't know enough to properly criticize these maps, but i do want to say that I love the new gem and maize goods colors!

Also what makes the rainforests of Chile and temperate rainforests in general not jungles i need to know

 

[AndPimentel]

Brazil's population, both pre-colonial and colonial, was concentrated along the coast during the timeframe. Without incentives to venture inland, this pattern might have persisted.

As others have noted, the Mata Atlântica was largely a man-made agricultural landscape beyond the mountain ranges. The native population would settle along the hills, practicing slash-and-burn agriculture, rotating locations every few years to sustain their livelihood.

The primary challenge of moving inland wasn’t the forest but the imposing mountain ranges like the Serra do Mar, which made such journeys arduous and unappealing, but still happened.

Yet, in the 16th century some converted natives and missionaries established a village 700 meters above sea level and just 50 kilometers from the coast: São Paulo dos Campos de Piratininga. This settlement became a pivotal hub for inland exploration. Portuguese explorers (Bandeirantes) often used São Paulo and other nearby villages (where the natives were friendly and converted) as staging points for expeditions into Brazil's interior. They scoured the land for valuable resources and eventually struck gold, quite literally.

Spoiler: Bandeirantes Expeditions XVII-XVIII

The discovery of gold was so significant that, in 1681, the capital of the Capitania de São Vicente was moved from São Vicente, the oldest city in Brazil (coastal city), to São Paulo. This discovery also sparked internal conflicts over mining rights between the settlers and the crown. By 1709, the Capitania de São Vicente laid claim to vast inland territories, reflecting the growing importance of these expeditions and eventually became "São Paulo e Minas de Ouro". Over time, these territories were divided into various provinces, but the initial push inland stemmed from São Paulo’s location and role as a resource hub.

Spoiler: 1709 Brazil's provinces

In summary:

• The natives cultivating the Mata Atlântica: the game doesn't allow that, it's all wasteland.
• Reasons to venture inland: most of the gold is in wasteland.
• Routes from the coast - inland: ironically, the best-preserved parts of the Mata Atlântica today is the the only pathway in the game.

Spoiler: Mata Atlântica - Deforestation since 1500s

• The settlement of São Paulo itself: wasteland.
• The pathways used by the Bandeirantes to go inland: wasteland.
• The conflicts that happened because of gold? tough luck, you'll have to travel 100 more days because of wasteland.
• Don't even get me started on how to get the gold to the coast, and how many cities were established as trading posts on the route.

 

[Zerodv]

Brazil's population, both pre-colonial and colonial, was concentrated along the coast during the timeframe. Without incentives to venture inland, this pattern might have persisted.

I'm fairly sure actual scholarship thinks it's the exact opposite given how much weight is given to Amazon populations

 

[AndPimentel]

I'm fairly sure actual scholarship thinks it's the exact opposite given how much weight is given to Amazon populations

Even in the Amazon, usually, civilizations did not extend far inland beyond riverbeds. At that point in time, these areas might as well have been considered coastal, as they shared many of the same resources/needs as oceanic regions.

Additionally, all studies claiming the existence of large civilizations in the Amazon forest should be approached with caution. The only well-documented case is the Marajoara culture. Claims that would be comparable are like discovering Stonehenge and asserting that 10 million people lived in Britain in 3000 BCE with no documented history to back it up.

 

[Lord Lambert]

For anyone interested, this is how the Provinces map appears to players, with impassable wastelands distinguished as null entities by greying them out. The version with watelands coloured by province is just in the debug build so we can see what we are doing when we paint the map.

View attachment 1233792

Oh thank gosh.