Tinto Maps #28 - 29th of November 2024 - North America

[Swabbie277]

Hi, I don't know if y'all are still looking at this thread. I just wanted to implore you to maybe place a few SoPs in the Pacific Northwest, as it's pretty clear that they had a fairly sophisticated level of organization despite a lack of agriculture. They had large houses, canoes, 'farmed' fish in a way which allowed for staying in one spot, and a (supposedly) long lasting oral tradition which shows off a societal memory of cataclysmic events (such as the collapse of Mt. Mazama). I can't cite everything because much of this is just what I've learnt from living here, but here are some academic sources:
https://www-jstor-org.library.lcproxy.org/stable/pdf/20611251.pdf (general culture)
https://www.academia.edu/download/46148581/Rick_Budhwa_-_Thesis.pdf (passed down oral traditions)
I hope y'all reconsider leaving the area as blank, it doesn't seem suited for the tribes there.

 

[zeruosi]

Reading the part about the population of the Americas really caused me some worry. I can't say much in relation to North America, since I haven't read as much on it as I have on South America. (which is because I'm from Brazil).

My biggest issue is which the following point:

The reason for my concern for this is that the Amazon rainforest alone likely housed between eight to ten million people, with a complex network of cities and polities spread across the major rivers of the basin. This stems from a combination of recent archaeological research in the region as well as observations by early European explorers in the continent.

On the archaeology point, research using Lidar as well as tracking anthropogenic Terra Preta (black soils) has shown the size and complexity of pre-columbian civilization in the Amazon.

As far as we are aware Amazonian societies cultivated a great variety of crops, from casava, sweet potatoes, and maize to even entirely novel varieties of rice not seen domesticated outside the continent.

They are known to have dug hundreds of kilometers of canals, roads, and causeways connecting settlements, as well as cuts between rivers, fish weirs, and artificial ponds. They made use of a great variety of landscaping techniques to build their towns and cities on artificial mounds to protect themselves from the seasonal flooding of rivers across the region.

According to research dating back to at least 2013, we have had studies suggesting the population of the Amazon Basin was higher than 8 million people.

And recent studies have agreed that the population of the region likely leaned to a more optimistic estimate between 8 million and 10 million. Mid range estimates from the 1970, 1992, and 2015 put the population at the very least 6 to 8 million people.

The rainforest was no prestine garden paradise prior to colonization, the modern landscape of the forest is a rather recent development resultant of the collapse of native socities across the amazon as a result of european contact and the arrival of european diseases.

Having that in mind, it's also important to note that the Inca Empire alone had a population between 6 to 14 million people, most likely around 12 million people.

This means that the Amazon and Inca Empire together would have a population between 12 to 24 million, likely around 20 million, and that's without including the rest of the continent.

Aggregate studies of multiple population estimates puts the population of the entire continent at around 60 million people by 1492

But potentially as high as 112 Million people.

Such a low population of 10.2 Million people completely misrepresents the vibrant and diverse mosaic of South America pre-columbian societies, when the population of the Amazon alone could potentially match that number.

The European colonization of the continent killed as much as 10% of the global population and around 90% of the population of the Americas as a whole. South and North America together may have had a combined lower range population of over 110 Million people (although it's possible it may have reached 200 million), of which in a mere 5 million survived by 1650. I worry that this representation, as presented by this edition of Tinto Maps, may be unintentionally downplaying the effects that the colonization of the Americas played on the indigenous populations.

(I'd post links to the sources I'm using, but it wont let me post links).

I would like to know which rice variety, After all, the three origins of rice, Africa, India, and China, each have produced a major rice strain. If Amazon has new rice varieties, it will be of great help to both science popularization and rice research.
And if possible, if there are any suitable indigenous names for Amazon. After all, as you know, this is the result of relocating the name of an ancient country near the Caucasus Mountains to the New World.

 

[L'nuismk]

I'm mainly going to be focusing on the Nova Scotia region here. If there are any Nova Scotia or Mi'kmaw specialists, please feel free to step in. I'll take some of the easier ones for now.

[...]

They also have Shubenacadie anglicized for some reason - hope this is fixed.

Also worth noting that there are multiple dialects and orthographies for L'nusimk, the Mi'kmaq language. The Francis-Smith one is the most recognized (i.e. Unama'kik) but others are not unimportant ( i.e. Ùnmàgi )

 

[Tantara]

There's a reasonable case that the more powerful Eastern Woodlands tribes of North America should be Settled Countries by Paradox's own standards.

I'm not going to go piecemeal through every tribe I can think of, but I want to lay out the general case for the larger bands of Eastern Woodlands peoples should be settled countries.

CRITERIA USED BY THE TINTO TEAM:

• Settled Countries (State Societies)
  • Organized through States, which implies a public power holding:
    • Writing/record-keeping systems - Wampum served as a key form of record-keeping in a similar manner to the Incan khipus. If Paradox considers the khipus a writing/record-keeping system, I personally believe it also treat wampum in a similar manner. Wampum could be used for record-keeping, long-distance coordination, treaty recording, religious recordings, familial history, etc. It was a fairly intricate form of "written" communication, which I think is sufficient to meet this criterion.
    • Monopoly of violence - Larger bands of the Iroquois, Wampanoag, and others were able to assert dominance or control over less powerful groups or to act in collective defense. They asserted control over specific areas (which could change depending on migration, etc.) and could coordinate large-scale military action at distance.
    • Tax collection - Small tribes were known to be able to provide tribute to larger groups, strongly indicating that these peoples had systems (if lost to us now) in place that enabled them to levy value from across the community. The Iroquois are known to have had elders that distributed communal surpluses, but the existence of regional tribute systems should be understood as indicative of the ability to collect and distribute communal wealth in a similar manner to what we consider "taxes" today.
    • Public works - There are numerous examples of these groups pursuing large-scale communal projects. The Haudenosaunee had fortifications, communal longhouses, and council houses; the Lenape built and maintained regional trails and food storage systems; the Narragansett built fishing weirs and docks; the Wampanoag diverted streams for irrigation; the Pequot built communal workshops; most of these tribes practiced communal slash and burn agriculture, indicating public agricultural management.

Groups that, I believe, fulfill the above criteria generally include the Haudenosaunee (Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca, and other Iroquois groups), Wampanoag, Lenape, Pequot, Mohegan, Abenaki, Montauk (and other Algonquian groups, including (maybe?) the Powhatan)

 

[L'nuismk]

There's a reasonable case that the more powerful Eastern Woodlands tribes of North America should be Settled Countries by Paradox's own standards.

I'm not going to go piecemeal through every tribe I can think of, but I want to lay out the general case for the larger bands of Eastern Woodlands peoples should be settled countries.

[...]

Adding to this, many of these Indigenous peoples made clear geographical and political distinctions between territories. As I have mentioned elsewhere, we know via the anthropological record that the Mi'kmaw pre-colonization divided what is now the Maritimes into legal and political districts. Within these districts specific families had specific territories and would migrate between the semi-permanent coastal settlements and inland territories based on the seasons. "Nomadic" in the sense of the Steppe Horse tribes is a far, faaaaar cry from the semi-nomadic lifestyle of Indigenous peoples on Turtle Island.

Sources for PDX people if they wanna do some reading:

Freedom & Indigenous Constitutionalism and Canada's Indigenous Constitution by John Borrows.
Truth and Conviction: Donald Marshall Jr. and the Mi'kmaw Quest for Justice by Jane McMillan. Specifically the chapter on Mi'kmaq legal principles.
Creating Indigenous Property by Val Napoleon, Angela Cameron and Sari Graben. Especially the intro & chapter 1.
Indigenous Legalities, Pipeline Viscosities: Colonial Extractivism and Wet'suwet'en Resistance by Tyler McCreary.
The Fourth World: An Indian Reality by George Manuel might also help contextualize a bit. not sure.

Maybe PDX should hire/contract an anthropologist or two and give them a set of questions to answer.

 

[sumiaz]

Since the Hohokam have been mentioned a few times, I wanted to compile what information I could for the devs to refer to when determining which provinces could be tags or SoPs, if any.

The more in-depth I went, the more that neighboring cultures came into the picture, but I had to pare it down to the Hohokam-Pueblo area because the rabbit hole is as deep as we want it to be. To be brief:

• North: The Sinagua culture is an umbrella term covering the Northern Sinagua in the highlands above the Mogollon Rim, and the Southern Sinagua of the Verde Valley. Northern sites like Wupatki and Elden Pueblo were abandoned by 1275, while Southern sites like Tuzigoot and Montezuma Castle remained occupied until around 1400. In between were sites like Honanki and Palatki that may or may not have been occupied at the 1330 start date.
• Northeast: The Salado culture emerged around 1150 AD from a preexisting Hohokam culture and cultures from the north and/or east such as the Mogollon or Pueblo. They flourished in the Tonto Basin and disappeared by 1450, likely before the Apache arrived in the area. Name from Spanish referring to the Salt River (Río Salado) along which a lot of sites are found. Besh Ba Gowah is a prototypical site with an older Hohokam culture that is succeeded by the Salado.
• East: The Mogollon culture covers a large area of eastern Arizona, southern New Mexico, northern Sonora, most of Chihuahua, and a small bit of western Texas. Parts of the Mogollon cultural area overlap with that of the Ancestral Pueblo culture. There are numerous large sites documented outside this area that might be appropriate as the centers of SoPs or tags. Notable sites in the area include Point of Pines, Kinishba, and Grasshopper Pueblo. Further afield are the Gila Cliff Dwellings, Paquimé, and Huápoca.
• South: The Trincheras culture abuts the Hohokam on the northern coast of Sonora. Broadly speaking, cultures contemporary with the Hohokam in Sonora have received far less attention than those in Arizona, but it’s possible there may be enough between Sonora, Sinaloa, and Chihuahua to model the long-distance trade networks that existed between the American Southwest and Mesoamerica. The preeminent site associated with this culture is Cerro de Trincheras on the Magdalena River.
• West: The Patayan culture roughly maps onto later Yuman cultures and tended to be more mobile than their eastern neighbors. They never built monumental architecture on the scale of their eastern neighbors, and settlements near rivers are presumed to have been erased by floods over time. They also intermingled with the Hohokam and later Piman groups, so having some mixing of cultures in the Lower Gila River basin would be appropriate.

Spoiler: Maps of the Hohokam culture and neighbors

And a final note before the rest, it’s important to keep in mind that the accurate terminology for almost all of these groups is “culture” rather than “people”. This distinction is important because what we know of these groups is based on the material culture they left behind (pottery styles, burial practices, architecture), and archaeologists can’t meaningfully describe a “Hohokam people” based on this alone. The Hohokam cultural area and its environs was diverse and perhaps even cosmopolitan in the 1300s, and there isn’t going to be a perfect solution to representing this accurately. So…

Spoiler: How to represent the Hohokam

The limitation of a “Hohokam” culture is that it’s more an archaeological term for a material culture but not so much its people. It’s why my preference is towards using recognizable exonyms as a whole, since there will inevitably be cultures and locations where it’s impossible to identify a local native American period-accurate name. We could never know what the Hohokam people called themselves, even then assuming that they all shared a single language.

As far as representing the Hohokam culture in-game, you could draw a parallel with the Rio Grande Pueblos, who share a similar material culture but speak vastly different languages. Without arbitrarily assigning other cultures to the Hohokam area, the “Hohokam” culture becomes a necessity. A compromise then would be to have a Hohokam culture but with some overlap with the neighboring cultures in its periphery.

And finally for historical accuracy, if the Hohokam and, by extension, the Ancestral Puebloan ("Hisatsinom") cultures are left as distinct from their neighbors at the start of the game, they would need to be gradually subsumed or replaced by the cultures encountered by the Europeans. It's already a bit ahistorical to have a "Hohokam people" or "Hisatsinom people" to begin with, so the question is how these necessary placeholder cultures evolve into those that we recognize today.

Spoiler: Hohokam population estimates

Main sources are: tDAR “Hohokam Population Database” (Peeples, 2006) and “Prehistoric Demography in the Southwest: Migration, Coalescence, and Hohokam Population Decline” (Hill, 2004). Peeples cites “Tonto Basin Demography in a Regional Perspective” (Doelle, 1995) as its primary source, but I wasn’t able to access this paper directly. “Prehistoric Demography in the Southwest: Migration, Coalescence, and Hohokam Population Decline” (Hill, 2004) offers some good insight into regional population trends. Below are sites with a population estimate of 200 or greater at 1350AD. This gives a bit under 70 sites out of a database of ~450 and covers most of the geographic regions with a Classic period Hohokam presence.

Hohokam sites, 1350 AD, population ≥200

Spoiler: Other sites in the Southwest

Map of some major settlements in the area. Purple =Pueblo (incl. Hopi and Zuni); blue =Hohokam; light green =Sinagua; teal =Mogollon; orange =Salado; black =other. Southern New Mexico is empty because I haven’t gotten too deep into the Mogollon culture of the area, so it’s not that there wasn’t anything there.

Spoiler: The Decline of Oasisamerica

The 1330 start date falls well within the decline of the Oasisamerica cultures, but at the time these cultures were very much alive, if more consolidated into larger settlements. It would be neat to have some or all their large settlements as tags or SoPs but to maintain historical accuracy it becomes necessary to model the decline and abandonment of these sites. Without a way to reduce and consolidate the populated areas in the early game, I suspect the first Europeans arriving in the area will find one or a few tags that have ahistorically blobbed over Arizona and New Mexico.

And separate from the decline of the Hohokam and their neighbors would be the migration into the area of the Na-Dené speakers from the northeast. The interaction between the incoming Apache and Navajo peoples and those already established in the area offers a lot of opportunity for region-specific events, since the relationship ranged from friendly trading and coexistence to open warfare. If aiming for historical accuracy around the arrival of the Europeans, there needs to be a way to model the establishment of Na-Dené speakers in areas once occupied by the Hohokam and Puebloans, including the fact that although the Navajo and Apache would occupy the same land, they would not necessarily inhabit the old population centers.

Part of the issue with attempting to assign a period-accurate native-language name to archaeological sites is that many of them are from the Na-Dené or Indo-European languages, neither of which would have been spoken in the area at the game start date, and a suitable alternative name might not be available. Examples include "Kinishba" and "Tuzigoot" from Western Apache; "Canyon de Chelly" and "Kin Tiel" from Navajo; and "Montezuma Castle" and "Point of Pines" from European languages.

Tangentially related is the topic of creating geography-based borders in this area:

Spoiler: Geographical boundaries in Arizona

Since the American Southwest is rife with straight borders, I mapped out some geographic features in Arizona and the east half of New Mexico. These are the watershed boundaries for rivers in the area and might be a way to get a geographical border that has some parallel with modern borders. The map below includes an overlay of the current borders from the latest Tinto Maps.

For Arizona, you could use most or all of the Gila River basin to get pretty close to the current Arizona-New Mexico border, up to the Mogollon Rim. The upper limits of the Little Colorado and San Juan watersheds could form a separate boundary between Arizona and New Mexico. Any Zuni locations could be grouped with the Rio Grande pueblos for a border closer to the current one. If Arizona is split into two areas this way, all or part of the transition zone below the Mogollon Rim could be grouped with the northern half to create a more even split.

For the southern border, the Altar Desert south of the Lower Gila watershed could mark the edge of southern Arizona. This would give a natural border that cuts off the Gila River basin from the Gulf of California, roughly following the modern Arizona-Sonora border.

 

[nyetflix2]

Alright, so I ve looked at the language groupings (macrofamilies, language families and proposed languages, columns, 1,2,3) and compared it with the setup in the dev diary (column number4) .

The Macrofamily, think of Indo-European level type of stuff, the LanguageFamily think of Germanic or Slavic type of grouping and the Language(proposed) I sought to go one level below that category so that its at least sort of mutually intelligible, so something along the lines of Lechitic, Brythonic etc.

Macrofamily	LanguageFamily	Language (proposed)	Languages in DevDiary	Commonly known as	Notes
Eskaleut	Aleut	Aleut	Yupik
Eskaleut	Eskimo	Yupik	Yupik
Eskaleut	Eskimo	Inuit	Inuit
Eskaleut	Eskimo	"Dorset"	Cree
Na-Dené	Athabaskan	Dené/Northern Athabaskan	Dené	Athabascans
Na-Dené	Athabaskan	Deeni/ Coastal Athabaskan	Dené/absent	Coastal Athabaskan
Na-Dené	Athabaskan	Diné/Southern Athabaskan	Diné	Apache
Na-Dené	Eyak	Eyak	Dené	Eyak
Na-Dené	Haida	Haida	Haida	Haida
Na-Dené	Tlingit	Tlingit	Dené	Tlingit
Algonquian	Plains Algonquian	Siksiká	Siksiká	Blackfoot
Algonquian	Plains Algonquian	Hinóno Eitíít	Hinóno Eitíít	Arapaho
Algonquian	Plains Algonquian	Tsėhesenėstsestȯtse	Hinóno Eitíít	Cheyenne
Algonquian	Central Algonquian	Cree	Cree	Cree
Algonquian	Central Algonquian	Menominee	Anishinabe	Menominee
Algonquian	Central Algonquian	Anishinabe	Anishinabe	Ojibwe	*inc. Potawatomi
Algonquian	Central Algonquian	Meskwaki	Shawnee	Fox	Fox, Sauk, Mesuqaten, Kickapoo
Algonquian	Central Algonquian	Shawnee	Shawnee	Shawnee
Algonquian	Central Algonquian	Myamia	Myamia	Miami-Illinois
Algonquian	Eastern Alguonquian	Abenaki	Abenakian	Abenaki, Mikmaq etc
Algonquian	Eastern Alguonquian	Massachussett	Massachusset	Massachusset
Algonquian	Eastern Alguonquian	Lenni Lenape	Lenni-Lenape	Delaware
Algonquian	Eastern Alguonquian	Powhatan	Powhatan	Powhatan
Algic	Yurok	Yurok	Algic	Yurok
Algic	Wiyot	Wiyot	Algic	Wiyot
Muscogean	Muscogean	Muskogee	Muskogee	Creek
Muscogean	Muscogean	Chickasaw-Choctaw	Chickasaw-Choctaw	Chickasaw-Choctaw
Natchez	Natchez	Natchez	Natchez	Natchez
Atakapa	Atakapa	Atakapa	Atakapa	Atakapa
Chitimacha	Chitimacha	Chitimacha	Atakapa	Chitimacha
Tunica	Tunica	Tunica	Natchez	Tunica
Tonkawa	Tonkawa	Tonkawa	Coahuilteco	Tonkawa
Siouan	Western Siouan	Mandan
Siouan	Western Siouan	Absaroka	*unreadable	Crow
Siouan	Western Siouan	Dakota	Dakota
Siouan	Western Siouan	Dehigan	Dheigha		*misspelt
Siouan	Western Siouan	Tutelo	Tutelo
Siouan	Eastern Siouan	Catawba	Tutelo
Iroquoian	Iroquoian	Haudenosaunne	Haudenosaunne		*to include also the St. Lawrence Iroquois, calle them "Kanata people or "Hoshelagan"
Iroquoian	Iroquoian	Wendat	Wendat	Huron
Iroquoian	Iroquoian	Skarureh	Skarureh	Tuscarora
Iroquoian	Iroquoian	Cherokee	Cherokee
Iroquoian	Iroquoian	Erian?	Iroquoian		group the Iroquoian speaking tribes west of the haudennosaunnee into one language, or put the ones on Canadian Side under theWendat language and those on the US side under Haudenosaunee language
Caddoan	Caddoan	Caddoan	Caddoan
Caddoan	Caddoan	Pawnee-Kichai	Pawnee-Kichai
Yuchi	Yuchi	Yuchi	Tutelo
Hokan	Yuman-Cochimí	Cochimí	Hokan
Hokan	Yuman-Cochimí	Kiliwa	Hokan
Hokan	Yuman-Cochimí	Yuman	Hokan
Hokan	Seri	Seri	Hokan
Hokan	Pomo	Pomo	Hokan
Hokan	Palaihnihan	Palaihnihan	Hokan
Hokan	Shastan	Shastan	Hokan
Hokan	Yana	Yana	Hokan
Hokan	Chimariko	Chimariko	Hokan
Hokan	Washo	Washo	Hokan
Hokan	Salinan	Salinan	Hokan
Hokan	Karok	Karok	Hokan
Hokan	Chumashan	Chumash	Chumashan
Hokan	Coahuiltecan	Coahuiltec	Coahuilteco
Hokan	Esselen	Esselen	Hokan
Penutian	Yok-Utian	Utian	Penutian
Penutian	Yok-Utian	Yokuts	Penutian
Penutian	Maiduan	Maiduan	Penutian
Penutian	Wintuan	Northern Wintuan	Penutian
Penutian	Wintuan	Southern Wintuan	Penutian
Penutian	Plateau Penutian	Klamath	Penutian
Penutian	Plateau Penutian	Mohala	Penutian
Penutian	Plateau Penutian	Sahaptian	Penutian
Penutian	Cayuse	Cayuse	Penutian
Penutian	Molale	Molale	Penutian
Penutian	Coose	Coose	Penutian
Penutian	Alsea	Alsea	Penutian
Penutian	Takelma	Takelma	Penutian
Penutian	Kalapuya	Kalapuya	Penutian
Penutian	Chinook	Chinook	Penutian
Penutian	Tsimshian	Tsimshian	Tsimshian
Penutian	Zuni	Zuni	Zuni
isolate	Keres	Keres	Keres
isolate	Beothuk	Beothuk	Cree
Yuki-Wappo	Yuki-Wappo	Yuki	Hokan
Yuki-Wappo	Yuki-Wappo	Wappo	Hokan
isolate	Kutenai	Ktunaxan	Ktunaxan
isolate	Karankawa	Karankawa	Coahuilteco
isolate	Chimakuan	Chimakuan	Salish
isolate	Timucua	Timucua	Timucua
Wakashan	Wakashan	Northern Wakashan/Kwakiutlan	Wakashan
Wakashan	Wakashan	Southern Wakashan/ Nootkan	Wakashan
Salishan	Salishan	Nuxalk	Salishan	Bella Coola
Salishan	Salishan	Coast Salish	Salishan
Salishan	Salishan	Interior Salish	Salishan
Tanoan	Tanoan	Kiowa	Tanoan
Tanoan	Tanoan	Tewa	Tanoan
Tanoan	Tanoan	Towa	Tanoan
Tanoan	Tanoan	Tiwa	Tanoan
Uto-Aztecan	Numic	Western Numic	Numu Monachi
Uto-Aztecan	Numic	Central Numic	Sosoni-Kusiuttu
Uto-Aztecan	Numic	Southern Numic	Nuuchi-Nuwuwi
Uto-Aztecan	Takic	Serran	Takic
Uto-Aztecan	Takic	Cupan	Takic
Uto-Aztecan	Takic	Lusenyo	Takic
Uto-Aztecan	Takic	Tongva	Takic
Uto-Aztecan	Hopi	Hopi	Yutonahua
Uto-Aztecan	Tubatulabal	Tubatulabal	Nuuchi-Nuwuwi
Uto-Aztecan	Tepiman	Pimic	Yutonahua
Uto-Aztecan	Tepiman	Tepehuan	Yutonahua
Uto-Aztecan	Tarahumaran	Tarahumaran	Yutonahua
Uto-Aztecan	Cahitan	Cahitan	Yutonahua
Uto-Aztecan	Opatan	Opatan	Yutonahua
Uto-Aztecan	Corachol	Cora	Nahuatl
Uto-Aztecan	Corachol	Huichol	Nahuatl
Uto-Aztecan	Nahuan	Nahuatl	Nahuatl
Uto-Aztecan	Nahuan	Pipil	Nahuatl
Uto-Aztecan	Nahuan	Pochutec	Nahuatl

I think Pipil can remain a dialect of Nahuatl tbh. There are some records of Central Mexicans being able to converse with Central Americans, but nothing that their speech was peculiar. The languages are close enough that they certainly at least had some intelligibility, particularly back in 1337. Also this is a nitpick but Pipil technically is not the correct name for the language/dialect as it just means child/noble and was the nickname given by Mexicans supposedly because it sounded like the speech of children.

I know less about Pochutec. I do know that it branched off earlier than any dialect of Nahuatl proper and its pronunciation was influenced by nearby Oto-Manguean languages, particularly Chatino. But it also seems to have been labelled in the colonial era as just plain "Nahua/Mexicano" as opposed to Pipil and the Nahuatl of Western Mexico which were labelled "Mexicano Corrupto".

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

I'm just thrilled to see the Southwest getting plenty of love here!

Thanks to users such as @Bosporus I was inspired to try my own hand at making locations to up the density a smidgeon. I started with the Southwest and did them in such a way that (while I'd want native provinces and areas to follow more natural looking shapes) a colonial power could remake provinces and areas to mostly create the modern state shapes if desired. Of course, definitely share any feedback such as any alternative names, wastelands that should be added, too much or too little granularity in some spots, etc.

Some notes on some notable spots:

- W’aasrba shak’a = Chaco Canyon (According to this site [https://wandererwrites.com/footsteps-ancient-ones-chaco-canyon/], it's the Acoma name for the area and it translates to “place of greasewood." A Hopi alternative would be Yupkoyvi, meaning “the place beyond the horizon”)

- Heshoda Wo'pana = Mesa Verde Cliff Palace (According to this site [https://decolonialatlas.wordpress.com/turtle-island-decolonized/] it's the Zuni name for the site)

- Ska-kaik = Snaketown (The Snaketown site itself was most likely abandoned by this point but the nearby areas such as Pueblo Los Muertos in Tempe/Chandler were very much populated)

- I definitely cheated a bit with Orayvi, Shungopavi, and Walpi to see if they could fit as separate locations despite how close they are. If needed, it could be condensed into Orayvi and Walpi or even just Orayvi.


From those locations, I made the border for these Settled Countries:

Compared to some of the polities, I haven't talked about Kawulk as much beyond their importance of creating and trading marine shell jewelry. What makes me believe that it would be a Settled Country are a few pages from this link (https://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/pdf/ait/arch-tuc-v12-no1.pdf):

"High on the north face of the hill, one group of three terraces stands out from the rest with the highest terrace walls in the town. We called this group El Mirador (the lookout). They occupy the only spot from which someone could have viewed all of the household terraces on the north slope of the hill. The lowest terrace had a ramp leading to it from below and the highest concentration of trade pottery from the site. A second ramp connected this terrace to the middle terrace. The middle terrace contained a rock room and other evidence of habitation. The third and highest terrace was filled with rocks, instead of soil, and we found very few artifacts on it. We think that this complex was the home of the site's ruling household. There would have been a reception area below, a domestic area in the middle, and a platform above from which proclamations could be made or ceremonies conducted in view of the town's populace below. There seems to be a definite organization to the terraces on the north face of the hill. The lowest terraces, below La Cancha, appear to be for specialized activities, such as agave fields. The next group of terraces above that, from La Cancha to El Mirador, appear to be primarily for domestic use. The terraces, the structures on them, and the artifacts the people used seem to get more elaborate with greater elevation. A cluster of households on the eastern end of the north face specialized in shell work. The terraces from El Mirador to the crest do not appear to be habitation terraces, because they lacked domestic structures or artifacts. The highest terrace in El Mirador is one of a series of terraces and walls that circle the entire hill and block access to the crest. This barrier is only broken at El Mirador and along a trail that goes up the west side of the hill. This pattern of walls and trails suggests to us that access to the crest of the hill was limited and controlled. The crest of the hill would have been an administrative, ceremonial precinct accessible only to a few of the site's inhabitants and/or only at special times or ceremonies. This precinct included the plaza of El Caracol, on its eastern end, and the highest peak of the hill, on the west."

I also included the Opata "statelets" of Cuchibaciachi, Corodehuachi, Aconchi, Cumupa, Mazotcagui, Oposura, Batuco, Soyopa, and Sahuaripa. The names aren't perfect (I had already made the locations before I found out about them and some of the locations I found on maps don't quite line up with the locations listed here for the Opate: https://www.einarerickson.com/images/stories/map 4 hopi.pdf). They do sound interesting, according to the Wikipedia page on the Opata people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opata_people), "The statelets were characterized by a ruling class, slavery, irrigation agriculture, and emphasis on trade. They featured a central town, functioning as the seat of government, of at least 200 two and three-story adobe houses and a population of six per house or 1,200 or more. In the countryside for several miles in every direction from the central town were satellite communities: hamlets of 9 to 25 houses and "rancherías" of less than 9 houses." I just don't know when exactly they emerged, that Wikipedia page makes it sound like it was around 1350 or so and the Wikipedia page for Casas Grandes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casas_Grandes) suggests a theory that they may have been those who left Paquimé. Definitely let me know if you have more information on them!

 

[zeruosi]

I'm just thrilled to see the Southwest getting plenty of love here!

Thanks to users such as @Bosporus I was inspired to try my own hand at making locations to up the density a smidgeon. I started with the Southwest and did them in such a way that (while I'd want native provinces and areas to follow more natural looking shapes) a colonial power could remake provinces and areas to mostly create the modern state shapes if desired. Of course, definitely share any feedback such as any alternative names, wastelands that should be added, too much or too little granularity in some spots, etc.

View attachment 1245640

Some notes on some notable spots:

- W’aasrba shak’a = Chaco Canyon (According to this site [https://wandererwrites.com/footsteps-ancient-ones-chaco-canyon/], it's the Acoma name for the area and it translates to “place of greasewood." A Hopi alternative would be Yupkoyvi, meaning “the place beyond the horizon”)

- Heshoda Wo'pana = Mesa Verde Cliff Palace (According to this site [https://decolonialatlas.wordpress.com/turtle-island-decolonized/] it's the Zuni name for the site)

- Ska-kaik = Snaketown (The Snaketown site itself was most likely abandoned by this point but the nearby areas such as Pueblo Los Muertos in Tempe/Chandler were very much populated)

- I definitely cheated a bit with Orayvi, Shungopavi, and Walpi to see if they could fit as separate locations despite how close they are. If needed, it could be condensed into Orayvi and Walpi or even just Orayvi.


From those locations, I made the border for these Settled Countries:

View attachment 1245643
View attachment 1245644

Compared to some of the polities, I haven't talked about Kawulk as much beyond their importance of creating and trading marine shell jewelry. What makes me believe that it would be a Settled Country are a few pages from this link (https://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/pdf/ait/arch-tuc-v12-no1.pdf):

"High on the north face of the hill, one group of three terraces stands out from the rest with the highest terrace walls in the town. We called this group El Mirador (the lookout). They occupy the only spot from which someone could have viewed all of the household terraces on the north slope of the hill. The lowest terrace had a ramp leading to it from below and the highest concentration of trade pottery from the site. A second ramp connected this terrace to the middle terrace. The middle terrace contained a rock room and other evidence of habitation. The third and highest terrace was filled with rocks, instead of soil, and we found very few artifacts on it. We think that this complex was the home of the site's ruling household. There would have been a reception area below, a domestic area in the middle, and a platform above from which proclamations could be made or ceremonies conducted in view of the town's populace below. There seems to be a definite organization to the terraces on the north face of the hill. The lowest terraces, below La Cancha, appear to be for specialized activities, such as agave fields. The next group of terraces above that, from La Cancha to El Mirador, appear to be primarily for domestic use. The terraces, the structures on them, and the artifacts the people used seem to get more elaborate with greater elevation. A cluster of households on the eastern end of the north face specialized in shell work. The terraces from El Mirador to the crest do not appear to be habitation terraces, because they lacked domestic structures or artifacts. The highest terrace in El Mirador is one of a series of terraces and walls that circle the entire hill and block access to the crest. This barrier is only broken at El Mirador and along a trail that goes up the west side of the hill. This pattern of walls and trails suggests to us that access to the crest of the hill was limited and controlled. The crest of the hill would have been an administrative, ceremonial precinct accessible only to a few of the site's inhabitants and/or only at special times or ceremonies. This precinct included the plaza of El Caracol, on its eastern end, and the highest peak of the hill, on the west."

I also included the Opata "statelets" of Cuchibaciachi, Corodehuachi, Aconchi, Cumupa, Mazotcagui, Oposura, Batuco, Soyopa, and Sahuaripa. The names aren't perfect (I had already made the locations before I found out about them and some of the locations I found on maps don't quite line up with the locations listed here for the Opate: https://www.einarerickson.com/images/stories/map 4 hopi.pdf). They do sound interesting, according to the Wikipedia page on the Opata people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opata_people), "The statelets were characterized by a ruling class, slavery, irrigation agriculture, and emphasis on trade. They featured a central town, functioning as the seat of government, of at least 200 two and three-story adobe houses and a population of six per house or 1,200 or more. In the countryside for several miles in every direction from the central town were satellite communities: hamlets of 9 to 25 houses and "rancherías" of less than 9 houses." I just don't know when exactly they emerged, that Wikipedia page makes it sound like it was around 1350 or so and the Wikipedia page for Casas Grandes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casas_Grandes) suggests a theory that they may have been those who left Paquimé. Definitely let me know if you have more information on them!

What about the Yaki people? I want to form an Yaki swarm in PC and name the desert I control as Silithus!

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

What about the Yaki people? I want to form an Yaki swarm in PC and name the desert I control as Silithus!

Maybe the devs can make a reference to that in a achievement!

I forgot to mention this earlier, but Riikudyunni is the name I made for the Pottery Mound site. According to this Keresan dictionary (https://suduva.com/english_acoma_words.htm), pottery in Keresan = dyuuni or sbuuna and rich = riiku. I basically made a name that translates to "rich in pottery." I unfortunately don't know Keresan so if someone here knows more I'd love some feedback.

A few more words I considered:

mesa/mountain = k'uuti
on/in/with = dik'a

 

[ScienceNinja7]

Maybe the devs can make a reference to that in a achievement!

I forgot to mention this earlier, but Riikudyunni is the name I made for the Pottery Mound site. According to this Keresan dictionary (https://suduva.com/english_acoma_words.htm), pottery in Keresan = dyuuni or sbuuna and rich = riiku. I basically made a name that translates to "rich in pottery." I unfortunately don't know Keresan so if someone here knows more I'd love some feedback.

A few more words I considered:

mesa/mountain = k'uuti
on/in/with = dik'a

Coining new place names when none are available is a good idea, but riiku looks very much like a loanword from Spanish rico.

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

Coining new place names when none are available is a good idea, but riiku looks very much like a loanword from Spanish rico.

I hadn't thought of that, but it is noticeable now that you mention it. It could be a coincidence but I wouldn't be too surprised if it was loanword.

 

[AntarcticRanger]

I repeat my question as to why Tasmania gets the only temperate jungles.

There really should be tons of jungle in the Pacific Northwest, both on the coast and deep inland along sides the Rockies

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

I repeat my question as to why Tasmania gets the only temperate jungles.

There really should be tons of jungle in the Pacific Northwest, both on the coast and deep inland along sides the Rockies

Agreed, perhaps it would be better to change Jungle to Rainforest?

 

[AntarcticRanger]

Agreed, perhaps it would be better to change Jungle to Rainforest?

gonna be honest, I don't understand why people think temperate rainforests can't be jungles. "Jungle" just means impenetrable vegetation. I don't really mind changing Jungle to Rainforest, as there is a reason we have generally shifted away from calling rainforests jungles, I just don't see the connection to temperate rainforests.

 

[Chieron]

gonna be honest, I don't understand why people think temperate rainforests can't be jungles. "Jungle" just means impenetrable vegetation. I don't really mind changing Jungle to Rainforest, as there is a reason we have generally shifted away from calling rainforests jungles, I just don't see the connection to temperate rainforests.

Though, are the Cascadian rainforests more inpenetrable than "normal" forests, reaching the level of "Jungle" (which in PC might also include all those pesky insects and tropical diseases etc.).
The same question should of course also be asked about Tasmania.
Maybe both are served well by the Forest vegetation type, maybe Jungle is applicable.

 

[TomislavAddai]

I'm just thrilled to see the Southwest getting plenty of love here!

Thanks to users such as @Bosporus I was inspired to try my own hand at making locations to up the density a smidgeon. I started with the Southwest and did them in such a way that (while I'd want native provinces and areas to follow more natural looking shapes) a colonial power could remake provinces and areas to mostly create the modern state shapes if desired. Of course, definitely share any feedback such as any alternative names, wastelands that should be added, too much or too little granularity in some spots, etc.

View attachment 1245640

Some notes on some notable spots:

- W’aasrba shak’a = Chaco Canyon (According to this site [https://wandererwrites.com/footsteps-ancient-ones-chaco-canyon/], it's the Acoma name for the area and it translates to “place of greasewood." A Hopi alternative would be Yupkoyvi, meaning “the place beyond the horizon”)

- Heshoda Wo'pana = Mesa Verde Cliff Palace (According to this site [https://decolonialatlas.wordpress.com/turtle-island-decolonized/] it's the Zuni name for the site)

- Ska-kaik = Snaketown (The Snaketown site itself was most likely abandoned by this point but the nearby areas such as Pueblo Los Muertos in Tempe/Chandler were very much populated)

- I definitely cheated a bit with Orayvi, Shungopavi, and Walpi to see if they could fit as separate locations despite how close they are. If needed, it could be condensed into Orayvi and Walpi or even just Orayvi.


From those locations, I made the border for these Settled Countries:

View attachment 1245643
View attachment 1245644

Compared to some of the polities, I haven't talked about Kawulk as much beyond their importance of creating and trading marine shell jewelry. What makes me believe that it would be a Settled Country are a few pages from this link (https://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/pdf/ait/arch-tuc-v12-no1.pdf):

"High on the north face of the hill, one group of three terraces stands out from the rest with the highest terrace walls in the town. We called this group El Mirador (the lookout). They occupy the only spot from which someone could have viewed all of the household terraces on the north slope of the hill. The lowest terrace had a ramp leading to it from below and the highest concentration of trade pottery from the site. A second ramp connected this terrace to the middle terrace. The middle terrace contained a rock room and other evidence of habitation. The third and highest terrace was filled with rocks, instead of soil, and we found very few artifacts on it. We think that this complex was the home of the site's ruling household. There would have been a reception area below, a domestic area in the middle, and a platform above from which proclamations could be made or ceremonies conducted in view of the town's populace below. There seems to be a definite organization to the terraces on the north face of the hill. The lowest terraces, below La Cancha, appear to be for specialized activities, such as agave fields. The next group of terraces above that, from La Cancha to El Mirador, appear to be primarily for domestic use. The terraces, the structures on them, and the artifacts the people used seem to get more elaborate with greater elevation. A cluster of households on the eastern end of the north face specialized in shell work. The terraces from El Mirador to the crest do not appear to be habitation terraces, because they lacked domestic structures or artifacts. The highest terrace in El Mirador is one of a series of terraces and walls that circle the entire hill and block access to the crest. This barrier is only broken at El Mirador and along a trail that goes up the west side of the hill. This pattern of walls and trails suggests to us that access to the crest of the hill was limited and controlled. The crest of the hill would have been an administrative, ceremonial precinct accessible only to a few of the site's inhabitants and/or only at special times or ceremonies. This precinct included the plaza of El Caracol, on its eastern end, and the highest peak of the hill, on the west."

I also included the Opata "statelets" of Cuchibaciachi, Corodehuachi, Aconchi, Cumupa, Mazotcagui, Oposura, Batuco, Soyopa, and Sahuaripa. The names aren't perfect (I had already made the locations before I found out about them and some of the locations I found on maps don't quite line up with the locations listed here for the Opate: https://www.einarerickson.com/images/stories/map 4 hopi.pdf). They do sound interesting, according to the Wikipedia page on the Opata people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opata_people), "The statelets were characterized by a ruling class, slavery, irrigation agriculture, and emphasis on trade. They featured a central town, functioning as the seat of government, of at least 200 two and three-story adobe houses and a population of six per house or 1,200 or more. In the countryside for several miles in every direction from the central town were satellite communities: hamlets of 9 to 25 houses and "rancherías" of less than 9 houses." I just don't know when exactly they emerged, that Wikipedia page makes it sound like it was around 1350 or so and the Wikipedia page for Casas Grandes (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casas_Grandes) suggests a theory that they may have been those who left Paquimé. Definitely let me know if you have more information on them!

This is just so absolutely epic. This would make the Oasisamerican civilisation get quite a lot of much-needed love. I would make an interesting starting spot and add more playthroughs in the region!

 

[Reilman79]

A bit late to the party but personally I like to see the state/province borders on the areas map. At least in the east, maybe less so for the pure rectangles in the west. One of the things I enjoy in games like this though is finding the modern borders amongst whatever comes to be in the game.

Also, if the playable SoP mechanics don’t work out, one thing that could be pretty cool would be the ability to elevate a particular stateless nation to a settled nation and be able to play as them. Maybe you could choose a few to elevate to give you some neighbors. That’d allows folks to play as or with a particular people that’s important to them while still keeping the SoP mechanics.

 

[korandder]

Though, are the Cascadian rainforests more inpenetrable than "normal" forests, reaching the level of "Jungle" (which in PC might also include all those pesky insects and tropical diseases etc.).
The same question should of course also be asked about Tasmania.
Maybe both are served well by the Forest vegetation type, maybe Jungle is applicable.

I would argue that the wetter coastal rainforests (which can get more than 3000 mm of rain a year) do match tropical rainforests in their vegetation density and also share the poor soils that tropical rainforests tend to have. The drier parts of the coastal forests and the inland forests (which are drier than those on the coast) I think are better represented by forest.

The tropical diseases are something that are specific to the tropical climate, not tropical rainforests. Having a lot of insects is also not something that is specific to tropical rain - subarctic climates tend to have a lot of insects trying to bite you in summer, even if these insects do not carry disease the same way as their tropical cousins.

 

[Tahami Tsunami]

Thank you all for the positive feedback on the Southwest!

Something I've been thinking about for a while has been if there are some Native American clans that would work well as Building-Based Countries like the daimyo/samurai clans in Japan. @Armor9D mentioned before that perhaps one possibility would be that the most prominent Tlingit clans could be building-based Extraterritorial Countries making specific use of Clan Houses as a unique building and be shown as subjects of a Tlingit SoP. Since the clan houses share villages with each other, I've been pondering how to make each one work as a separate entity. One option I'm leaning towards is have the Tlingit kwaans (given their large territorial size) be shown as provinces and listing the prominent clans as their own locations within the kwaans. It's not perfect but I think it isn't an unreasonable way to show the Tlingit clans on the map. While I figure out how that would look, here are the territories of the Tlingit kwaans as provinces, the area being shown as Lingít Aaní, and the Tlingit SoP.

Here is an image of the Tlingit clans. I'll need to find out which ones were considered the most prominent.