• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
  • 2
Reactions:
He doesn't sign an agreement with Venice to use its ships for naval transport, keeping the Byzantine navy strong.
Some part of me wonders how we get Salian Venice and Bulgaria, since Venice stayed neutral in the Investiture Controversy and even helped the Byzantines against Robert Guiscard? Maybe there's a way to preserve the Republic of Venice while also giving Henrich's descendants estates in northern Italy and Bulgaria, maybe even getting them elected as Doge of Venice a few times.
As the Abbasids are either deposed or held hostage by the Seljuks, the Zirids don't switch allegiance to them in 1050, which prevents the Fatimids from sending the Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym against them in retaliation. The Fatimids can now afford to focus their attention east on the Seljuks, so they retain control over Syria and Palestine. The in-game map where they control the Arabian interior would probably be the Fatimids gaining the allegiance of desert tribes in-universe. Northern Syria is constantly fought over with the Byzantines, which I suppose Friedrich, Alexios, and others can use as justification for a crusade in place of supposed Seljuk atrocities. The Mustansirite Hardship famine (1064-1071) is more devastating for Muslim populations (but, miraculously, not the Copts—which would likely result in pogroms against that that could have been justification for the Egyptian crusade), which like in OTL leads to a power struggle and civil war over who can control the caliph al-Mustansir. Eventually, the Worm cultist Hassan takes power as vizier with the help of Nasir al-Dawla Ibn Hamdan (who doesn't seize power for himself). However, the Fatimids are significantly weakened, both militarily and politically, which allows Friedrich the Great to conquer them easily and then provide grain from the Byzantine core and former Robert Guiscard lands in North Africa to help the people. People in Egypt, Syria, and Palestine begin turning away from Islam as a result.
So Fredrich's crusades would be against the Fatimids instead of Abbasids, contrary to previous updates.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Some part of me wonders how we get Salian Venice and Bulgaria, since Venice stayed neutral in the Investiture Controversy and even helped the Byzantines against Robert Guiscard? Maybe there's a way to preserve the Republic of Venice while also giving Henrich's descendants estates in northern Italy and Bulgaria, maybe even getting them elected as Doge of Venice a few times.
First, they wouldn’t be Heinrich IV’s descendants, because if they did exist then the German nobility would support one of his sons or sons-in-law as the next emperor. Probably will be other descendants of his siblings, like perhaps a son of Judith and Solomon of Hungary.

Second, I wasn’t familiar with Venice’s role in the Investiture Controversy since I focused on the big players. Venice helping against Robert Guiscard was the result of a treaty with Alexios Komnenos, who had no choice but to exempt all Venetian merchants from Byzantine taxes because the Byzantine navy had been thoroughly gutted by now. That wouldn’t happen with a clean transfer of power from Basil II to Konstantinos VIII Dalassenos to Isaac I Komnenos to Konstantinos IX Doukas. The Byzantine navy would remain as strong as it was in Basil's time. The only other thing I can think of changing is having Otto Orsoleo not die in 1032 when being restored to power. I don’t know what he’d do after becoming doge again. Maybe he’d establish a hereditary monarchy, but that sounds like something his enemies claimed he would do. Otto maintained friendly relations with both the HRE and ERE and had ties to both the Salians and the Macedonian dynasty, so I could see him being one link in the bridge between the two empires against the pope. After Restoration, Venice gradually fades into the surrounding March of Verona due to being crowded out by other merchant republics.

Not sure what to do with Bulgaria, but maybe a Salian is appointed as a governor there at some point. But since Basil II’s tolerance policies towards Bulgarians were kept (and probably expanded to other minorities under the Reich), there are no rebellions there, and Bulgaria gradually becomes Hellenized.
So Fredrich's crusades would be against the Fatimids instead of Abbasids, contrary to previous updates that were mistaken.
Yes, I was mistaken. The OTL Abbasids were powerless puppets of the Seljuks by then, so it wouldn’t really make sense.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
First, they wouldn’t be Heinrich IV’s descendants, because if they did exist then the German nobility would support one of his sons or sons-in-law as the next emperor. Probably will be other descendants of his siblings, like perhaps a son of Judith and Solomon of Hungary.
That reminds me, I wonder how the history of Poland and Hungary would shake out since they both had large scale pagan rebellions before 1066? Best I can think of is having both kingdoms collapse to strong pagan rebellions and later reconquered by the Reich, with the Piast dynasty in the former either replaced or forced to marry off a princess to Werner von Habsburg due to siding with the Papacy in the Investiture Controversy. I also wonder if the Northern March still collapse to a pagan rebellion?
I could have the Almoravids be defeated at Awdaghost, though as I’ve said before their conquest and conversion of Ghana isn’t fully backed up by archaeological evidence. Without the Almoravids, Malian and west African pagans survive much longer, and Islam in the region is more of the syncretic and accommodating kind. It might actually survive the collapse of Islam in the Middle East but dwindle to a minority as pagan institutions strengthen.
Since Malian Islam is more accommodating to West African paganism, I wonder if there would be mansas like Mansa Musa that would patron it, even if paganism remains entrench after their death, given how diverse traditional African religions are and how decentralized the Mali Empire of Sundiata Keita is?
Everybody would support whatever factions they wanted, regardless of ideology, as long as they served their goals. The Reich might support left wing Ragnarokers if they target the UVR, the UVR might support fascists if they attack Roman military bases, and so on. China wouldn’t have any reason to intervene here, since they’re focused on the Pacific.
Maybe there wouldn't be a direct Chinese connection here, but I wonder if there's room for an Iran-Contra affair style connection between the Nordenland and Fusang situations prior to WW3? Also I wonder if the triumvirate between MacLiam, "Thatcher", and "Meir"?

I also wonder how the development of the UVR would be affected by its civil war not being as long and brutal as the OTL Russian civil war was and the invasion of Yavdi going smoothly?

Btw, where did the term Colli come from? Looking back on older chapters through the search engine, it seems to be Mexicayotl's equivalent of Sharia, but I can't seem to find precedent for that in Mesoamerican history.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
That reminds me, I wonder how the history of Poland and Hungary would shake out since they both had large scale pagan rebellions before 1066? Best I can think of is having both kingdoms collapse to strong pagan rebellions and later reconquered by the Reich, with the Piast dynasty in the former either replaced or forced to marry off a princess to Werner von Habsburg due to siding with the Papacy in the Investiture Controversy. I also wonder if the Northern March still collapse to a pagan rebellion?
For Poland there was a pushback against Christianity in the Pagan reaction in Poland of the 1030's by people who were upset about the progress of Christianization so Zen could play around with that. As for Hungary I am not sure.

I also wonder how the development of the UVR would be affected by its civil war not being as long and brutal as the OTL Russian civil war was and the invasion of Yavdi going smoothly?
Northern Nordenland, which has a lot of Sami people, falls under Yavdian occupation. Jutland falls under Roman occupation. Everything else is put under joint Kanatan/Rusian occupation, but due to geography the Kanatans concentrate in the west and the Rusians in the east. When the revolutions hit, the fleeing monarchies set up governments in exile in their occupation zones as usual.
Speaking of the UVR civil war in OTL there was other conflicts linked to the Russian Civil War such as the Finnish Civil War and the Polish–Soviet War. I feel like the Finnish Civil War could be the same with the UVR supported faction failing against the Whites of the Yavdi Government in exile (who in the rework I assume controls Finland along with the Sami Region) and this leads to a situation like the Winter War which leads to the UVR getting revenge during WWII. As for the Polish-Soviet War I don't think that the Reich under Markos Angelos would be as lenient as the Pole's were and I could see Angelos just try and take all of Rusia so that would not work. I think a better idea would be to have the UVR try and attack Persia between 1918/1919 to March 18, 1921. That way it helps the Fascist rise to power in Persia?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
For Poland there was a pushback against Christianity in the Pagan reaction in Poland of the 1030's by people who were upset about the progress of Christianization so Zen could play around with that. As for Hungary I am not sure.
Hungary also had a large scale pagan uprising and a decades long succession dispute caused by the death of Stephen I's son Emeric as I said before. Apparently Henrich III also tried to conquer Hungary a couple times and the Vata rebellion was caused by fears of Hungary becoming part of the HRE, so alternatively I guess Henrich III and Peter Orseolo could he could be more successful at integrating Hungary into the HRE.
Speaking of the UVR civil war in OTL there was other conflicts linked to the Russian Civil War such as the Finnish Civil War and the Polish–Soviet War. I feel like the Finnish Civil War could be the same with the UVR supported faction failing against the Whites of the Yavdi Government in exile (who in the rework I assume controls Finland along with the Sami Region) and this leads to a situation like the Winter War which leads to the UVR getting revenge during WWII. As for the Polish-Soviet War I don't think that the Reich under Markos Angelos would be as lenient as the Pole's were and I could see Angelos just try and take all of Rusia so that would not work. I think a better idea would be to have the UVR try and attack Persia between 1918/1919 to March 18, 1921. That way it helps the Fascist rise to power in Persia?
The UVR did attack Finland for Karelia and peaced out shortly before the 1926 revolutions, but I'm not sure how the UVR would reach Persia since that would require going through Turkestan?

Now I'm wondering how similar the purges of Saint Wilhelmina and Fredrich the Glorious in the Middle East, Poland, and France would be to the Harrying of the North?
 
That reminds me, I wonder how the history of Poland and Hungary would shake out since they both had large scale pagan rebellions before 1066? Best I can think of is having both kingdoms collapse to strong pagan rebellions and later reconquered by the Reich
For Poland, Otto III living longer means he gets a second attempt at subjugating the Slavs of the Northern March. I’ll also have Mieszko I of Poland be firmly loyal to the Ottonians, not siding with Duke Heinrich II of Bavaria (that’s Emperor Heinrich II’s father) to overthrow Otto III during his regency. Like in OTL, he takes measures to integrate himself into German nobility and HRE institutions through marriage alliances and close ties with the emperors (aside from the above rebellion). Some sources claim Mieszko "subordinated himself to" Otto III, but it is unclear what this means. I’ll have him actually swear fealty, bringing Poland into the HRE. Otto then uses the Piasts to help suppress and Christianize the Slavs of the Northern March. As a result, Poland still converts to Christianity, though the presence of a strong Rus’ next door allows pagans to migrate over into Rus’ territory. In gameplay terms, it would be part of the HRE blob in 1066.

For Hungary, Friedrich backs the claim of his brother-in-law Solomon (married to Heinrich IV’s sister Judith) in exchange for swearing fealty to him. The offer is accepted in exchange for relative autonomy and kingdom status within the HRE like Bohemia.

I’d like to keep as much OTL history as possible.
with the Piast dynasty in the former either replaced or forced to marry off a princess to Werner von Habsburg due to siding with the Papacy in the Investiture Controversy.
I suppose the Habsburgs could inherit the throne if the Piasts die out without a male heir, but I’m inclined to retcon it in light of the new Piast lore above.
I also wonder if the Northern March still collapse to a pagan rebellion?
See above.
Since Malian Islam is more accommodating to West African paganism, I wonder if there would be mansas like Mansa Musa that would patron it, even if paganism remains entrench after their death, given how diverse traditional African religions are and how decentralized the Mali Empire of Sundiata Keita is?
Probably a couple Muslim mansas or at least royal consorts.
Maybe there wouldn't be a direct Chinese connection here, but I wonder if there's room for an Iran-Contra affair style connection between the Nordenland and Fusang situations prior to WW3? Also I wonder if the triumvirate between MacLiam, "Thatcher", and "Meir"?
That might work. I’ll have to think about it.

What do you mean about the triumvirate?
I also wonder how the development of the UVR would be affected by its civil war not being as long and brutal as the OTL Russian civil war was and the invasion of Yavdi going smoothly?
I guess so. I might retcon the invasion of Yavdi to be the UVR sending troops to support a similar revolution there. The civil war against remnant monarchist and other anti-UVR forces would be part of a larger period of anti-UVR insurgency, after which the regime decides to establish the volost system to prevent any future rebellions from gaining a large support base and implement policies that eventually evolve into deromanization.
Btw, where did the term Colli come from? Looking back on older chapters through the search engine, it seems to be Mexicayotl's equivalent of Sharia, but I can't seem to find precedent for that in Mesoamerican history.
You know what? I don’t remember what it means myself. I came up with it a long time ago while writing the gameplay events as a stand-in for the Salafi movement (I had another word for the Wahhabis if I remember correctly, though at the time I pretty much used both interchangeably). Now when I try searching it up in Nahuatl dictionaries, all I get are words that mean “bent” or “grandfather.” The second definition could fit as the name “Salafi” comes from “salaf” meaning “ancestors” (and that might be my reason for using “colli”), though part of me wants to find a new name that better fits the Mexica Empire’s context.
For Poland there was a pushback against Christianity in the Pagan reaction in Poland of the 1030's by people who were upset about the progress of Christianization so Zen could play around with that. As for Hungary I am not sure.
Hungary also had a large scale pagan uprising and a decades long succession dispute caused by the death of Stephen I's son Emeric as I said before. Apparently Henrich III also tried to conquer Hungary a couple times and the Vata rebellion was caused by fears of Hungary becoming part of the HRE, so alternatively I guess Henrich III and Peter Orseolo could he could be more successful at integrating Hungary into the HRE.
As said above, I think I’ll go with Friedrich installing Solomon on the throne in exchange for HRE vassalage.
Speaking of the UVR civil war in OTL there was other conflicts linked to the Russian Civil War such as the Finnish Civil War and the Polish–Soviet War. I feel like the Finnish Civil War could be the same with the UVR supported faction failing against the Whites of the Yavdi Government in exile (who in the rework I assume controls Finland along with the Sami Region) and this leads to a situation like the Winter War which leads to the UVR getting revenge during WWII. As for the Polish-Soviet War I don't think that the Reich under Markos Angelos would be as lenient as the Pole's were and I could see Angelos just try and take all of Rusia so that would not work. I think a better idea would be to have the UVR try and attack Persia between 1918/1919 to March 18, 1921. That way it helps the Fascist rise to power in Persia?
The UVR did attack Finland for Karelia and peaced out shortly before the 1926 revolutions, but I'm not sure how the UVR would reach Persia since that would require going through Turkestan?
In the interwar period, I’ll have the Yavdians setting up a government in exile their occupation zone in Finland. But the Yavdi government in exile isn’t as strong as the Finnish military, so it won’t be able to stand up to the UVR when it inevitably invades. However, it does stall the UVR advance for several years. The last holdouts are only destroyed around 1943, after which the UVR pours into northern Sweden by land and central Sweden in a naval invasion. For a Polish-Soviet War, maybe Turkestan in place of Persia, since old lore had them as “Poland.”
Now I'm wondering how similar the purges of Saint Wilhelmina and Fredrich the Glorious in the Middle East, Poland, and France would be to the Harrying of the North?
One of my previous posts about Harald yet again he shows up initially compared his suppression of the Welsh and other rivals to his rule in England shortly before going to war with Malcolm III of Scotland to the Harrying of the North, but I removed it in the final draft. I suppose echoes of the Harrying could appear in Saint Wilhelmina’s purges, as well as campaigns waged by the two Friedrichs against German nobles and Greek dynatoi that continued to resist them.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
What do you mean about the triumvirate?
The conservative political alliance between Ruaidhrí MacLiam, "Rita Thatcher", and "Meir" in the Hohenzollern party you brought up in old lore. If nothing else, I wonder what the latter two would be renamed to?
You know what? I don’t remember what it means myself. I came up with it a long time ago while writing the gameplay events as a stand-in for the Salafi movement (I had another word for the Wahhabis if I remember correctly, though at the time I pretty much used both interchangeably). Now when I try searching it up in Nahuatl dictionaries, all I get are words that mean “bent” or “grandfather.” The second definition could fit as the name “Salafi” comes from “salaf” meaning “ancestors” (and that might be my reason for using “colli”), though part of me wants to find a new name that better fits the Mexica Empire’s context.
Best I can come up with is "Atlpatia" which should roughly mean "water path" loosely based on the meaning of the word Sharia, but I'm not sure if that's accurate to the Nahuatl language or fits the Mexica Empire, even though we have the Almoravid exiles to somewhat justify it. I guess colli can stay as another name for the Mexicanist political movement.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Best I can come up with is "Atlpatia" which should roughly mean "water path" loosely based on the meaning of the word Sharia, but I'm not sure if that's accurate to the Nahuatl language or fits the Mexica Empire, even though we have the Almoravid exiles to somewhat justify it. I guess colli can stay as another name for the Mexicanist political movement.
On second thought, maybe naming it after a Mexica ruler like Nezahualcoyotl or some equivalent to him might be better.
Probably a couple Muslim mansas or at least royal consorts.
On that note, do you have an idea to centralize the West African religions into one cohesive faith, or will you keep Mali religiously decentralized and diverse as you previously said?

Additionally, how would Ida's affairs shake out in DE? I think we can leave Doge Manfredo Doria of Genoa as is, but I feel like Jesek Markvartic should be from an important family involved in the Investiture Controversy, like the Přemyslid dynasty since he seems to be Bohemian based on his name, to justify Ida's affair politically, in line with a previous idea for Ida.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
The conservative political alliance between Ruaidhrí MacLiam, "Rita Thatcher", and "Meir" in the Hohenzollern party you brought up in old lore. If nothing else, I wonder what the latter two would be renamed to?
In keeping with the non-German and non-Greek backgrounds of the triumvirate, “Thatcher” could be an Anglo-Saxon named Ethel Silverman. “Meir”
Best I can come up with is "Atlpatia" which should roughly mean "water path" loosely based on the meaning of the word Sharia, but I'm not sure if that's accurate to the Nahuatl language or fits the Mexica Empire, even though we have the Almoravid exiles to somewhat justify it. I guess colli can stay as another name for the Mexicanist political movement.
Again, Colli was based on the Salafi movement, not the concept of sharia, so if anything it would take after Salafi, which comes from the word salaf, which means “ancestors.”
On second thought, maybe naming it after a Mexica ruler like Nezahualcoyotl or some equivalent to him might be better.
Like the Cult of Quetzalcoatl?
On that note, do you have an idea to centralize the West African religions into one cohesive faith, or will you keep Mali religiously decentralized and diverse as you previously said?
Makes more sense to keep it decentralized.
Additionally, how would Ida's affairs shake out in DE? I think we can leave Doge Manfredo Doria of Genoa as is, but I feel like Jesek Markvartic should be from an important family involved in the Investiture Controversy, like the Přemyslid dynasty since he seems to be Bohemian based on his name, to justify Ida's affair politically, in line with a previous idea for Ida.
In the game he had titles in Croatia in addition to being the duke of Spoleto, so he could have been installed first in Croatia after the HRE and its allies defeat the major papal ally Peter Krešimir IV of Croatia. I don't remember how old he was in the game, but I could have him become king of Croatia after Krešimir and his successors, Demetrius Zvonimir and Stjepan II, die at some point. In OTL that led to the king of Hungary taking the throne, but without those marriage connections I could have Jesek become king instead. Maybe he becomes duke of Spoleto as a reward for his service during the Battle of Cannae.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
In keeping with the non-German and non-Greek backgrounds of the triumvirate, “Thatcher” could be an Anglo-Saxon named Ethel Silverman. “Meir”
I forgot to mention that last one was referring to Golda Meir. Maybe a Rusian name in her case since she was Ukrainian?
Again, Colli was based on the Salafi movement, not the concept of sharia, so if anything it would take after Salafi, which comes from the word salaf, which means “ancestors.
Like the Cult of Quetzalcoatl?
I am aware, and I said we could keep Colli as the name of the “Salafi” movement. Not too sure about the equivalent of Sharia though, since old chapters seem to use the term “CollI’ interchangeably for sharia and Salafi.
In the game he had titles in Croatia in addition to being the duke of Spoleto, so he could have been installed first in Croatia after the HRE and its allies defeat the major papal ally Peter Krešimir IV of Croatia. I don't remember how old he was in the game, but I could have him become king of Croatia after Krešimir and his successors, Demetrius Zvonimir and Stjepan II, die at some point. In OTL that led to the king of Hungary taking the throne, but without those marriage connections I could have Jesek become king instead. Maybe he becomes duke of Spoleto as a reward for his service during the Battle of Cannae
That’s a good idea. I wonder if my idea of him being a Přemyslid could work on top of this, since he seems to have a Czech name and Vratislaus II was an ally of Henrich IV. Maybe Jesek would be a second son or illegitimate child of Vraitslaus. Guess it depends on his in-game culture and ancestry.
 
  • 1
Reactions:
I forgot to mention that last one was referring to Golda Meir. Maybe a Rusian name in her case since she was Ukrainian?
That's strange. I know I finished that response, but for some reason everything after "Meir" was deleted. I used the name Golda Neiditch (using her mother's surname), because I wanted her and Ethel Silverman to be referred to as a "gold and silver" duo. But I'm open to other suggestions for a surname.
I am aware, and I said we could keep Colli as the name of the “Salafi” movement. Not too sure about the equivalent of Sharia though, since old chapters seem to use the term “CollI’ interchangeably for sharia and Salafi.
I'd rather not try having a direct analogue of sharia, just something that would conceivably emerge within a fundamentalist strain of the Mexica religion.
That’s a good idea. I wonder if my idea of him being a Přemyslid could work on top of this, since he seems to have a Czech name and Vratislaus II was an ally of Henrich IV. Maybe Jesek would be a second son or illegitimate child of Vraitslaus. Guess it depends on his in-game culture and ancestry.
Should work, since the name "Markvartice" isn't attested to until the 13th century.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
I'd rather not try having a direct analogue of sharia, just something that would conceivably emerge within a fundamentalist strain of the Mexica religion.
Fair enough. You said you had another term for "Wahhabism" recently so I was wondering if you remember what it was? It's ok if you don't, just curious.
But I do think that's a good idea. Only issue is it might be a little hard to write without unintentionally inserting certain negative subtext into Ida's character. There is a certain stigma in real life against women sleeping around (and a double standard as men who do the same are generally portrayed positively), so even if I try to portray it that might still reflect Ida in a bad light. I also want to limit the amount of sexual content portrayed in the story as I'm both not comfortable writing such scenes (implication is fine) and want to keep the story accessible for younger audiences (if they're still around). I'm not opposed to writing it, though. That is something Ida would do and would explain why Friedrich didn't do anything. Maybe she started it during the Controversy to win allies to Friedrich's side (could even explain why Matilda of Tuscany switched sides) and it continued into the Crusades.
I'm having a thought, what if we rendered Fredrich incapable of having children after Prince Wilhelm's birth for whatever reason, like an injury sustained during battle? I'm pretty sure this would bare Fredrich from the Byzantine and HRE thrones, so Ida's affairs would serve to keep Fredrich's condition secret.

I'm also thinking, I know you said nobody knew about Ida's affairs, but even if Prince Wilhelm is legitimate, , I wonder if rumors about them getting out would affect Fredrich the Glorious and Saint Wilhelmina's legitimacy in anyway?
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
Fair enough. You said you had another term for "Wahhabism" recently so I was wondering if you remember what it was? It's ok if you don't, just curious.
No, but if I didn’t misremember it, it should be somewhere in the 70s-90s gameplay chapters.
I'm having a thought, what if we rendered Fredrich incapable of having children after Prince Wilhelm's birth for whatever reason, like an injury sustained during battle? I'm pretty sure this would bare Fredrich from the Byzantine and HRE thrones, so Ida's affairs would serve to keep Fredrich's condition secret.
If I do go this way, I’d have it it happen shortly before the last two of his officially acknowledged children are born.
I'm also thinking, even if Prince Wilhelm is legitimate, I know you said nobody knew about Ida's affairs, but I wonder if rumors about them getting out would affect Fredrich the Glorious and Saint Wilhelmina's legitimacy in anyway?
I suppose, but Friedrich the Glorious would demonstrate his legitimacy by being just as capable a military leader as his grandfather, while Wilhelmina just plows straight ahead and adds it to the list of slander against her.

On a related note, I was looking into Friedrich the Great’s background. After reading up on William the Conqueror’s life, I think I’ll make him an illegitimate son of Burkard, Count of Zollern, with a peasant woman of Hechingen. This peasant then raises Friedrich in his early years before Burkard legitimizes him and brings him into his court (illegitimacy not being as heavily stigmatized and a disqualifier for kingship at this point). I’ll distinguish him from his legitimate half-brother (the OTL Hohenzollern) by calling that one “Friederich,” sort of like what I did in the Apocalypse arc. Anyways, Friedrich’s time living among peasants teaches him empathy for the common people, which he passes on to Friederich, Heinrich, and Ida. Funny enough, since I won’t change William’s backstory, this makes them foils of each other. While both of them were raised by commoner mothers and were familiar with the plight of the common people, William was considered ruthless and brutal towards his opponents, while Friedrich was kinder and more tolerant.

The Zollerns of Friedrich’s line are raised to imperial immediacy by Heinrich when Friedrich marries Ida, which is how they become called Hohenzollerns. However, Friederich’s line is still known as Zollerns, even after becoming kings in their own right.

I still don’t have a good justification for why Berlin eventually becomes the capital. But the history of the region would be pushed up by 200 years due to Otto III successfully subduing the Slavs of the region and integrating Poland into the HRE, so the Nordmark still expands east under the Udonids. As Counts of Stade, their capital is in Stade, in the Altmark (named as the only part of the Nordmark to not be lost in the 983 rebellion), instead of what I assumed in the old lore. I could say that Friedrich and his allies trained there and learned leadership under Lothar Udo II. Brandenburg an der Havel is designated as the capital of the restored Nordmark until Saint Wilhelmina founds Berlin as a new capital free from the power politics of Constantinople and the HRE centers of power, yet still accessible due to its location on important trade routes. I don’t know, I’m just writing stuff down to hash it out.

The Reich’s flag comes from Friedrich combining the coat of arms of the OTL Hohenzollerns with a Byzantine double-headed eagle to create his own personal coat of arms, which becomes the imperial standard. The Seljuks also make use of the double-headed eagle as in OTL.

Nordenland uses the raven banner I’ve occasionally used here before, since I found that similar motifs were used by Harald. The specific design I used is a reconstruction, but it’s the most usable one I got.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Have the Norse start writing down and codifying their religious rituals on paper or some other parchment. Some kings had already tried that in OTL, but perhaps developing a local tradition of parchment-making will help more. The script would be using runes since the Latin alphabet was linked to Christianity.
Standardization and codification of the rituals as above further centralizes power in the monarchy as the jarls and other local nobility can no longer carry out their own rites. The monarchy thus establishes a priestly class of godi with the king as high priest (“Fylkir” in old lore, rename pending). This model spreads to the monarchies of Denmark and Sweden as a native alternative to relying on Christians for centralization of power and economic advantages.
This also brings up the matter of the official language. It's still Old Norse, specifically the Old Norwegian dialect, so that's what I'll generally use for names going forward. Since the whole country is unified under a single government, the Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, and Icelandic languages are classified as dialects of the same language. Out of universe I'll still call it "Norse" for convenience. In-universe...it's a bit complicated. Wikipedia says that "Old Norse" was called either norrǿnt mál ("Northern speech") or dǫnsk tunga ("Danish tongue"), but from what I found, the former specifically referred to Norwegian. I won't use either. The whole business with Harald's capital lines up neatly here. He promotes the Old Norwegian dialect as the language of court, so the official language is called Norðanmál ("Northern speech" but I changed it a bit), which eventually evolves into the Norwegian Nordenmål. Because the whole of Nordenland is one country, that is used as the official name of the language. However, the informal Norsk is also used. In an official context there is a distinction between Nordenmål, the language of the government and high society, and Norsk, the language of the regular people (for every dialect across the country). In practice both are used interchangeably, which leads to the Reich generally calling it "Norse" (officially "Nordenisch," archaically "Danish" because of interactions with Christian Danes, who also call many of their eastern dialects "Dansk").

I'll use Icelandic if I have to write Old Norse for things other than names or OTL Norse texts in CK2, then Norwegian Bokmål from later EU4 onward, and Nynorsk for regional dialects. I won't be using either OTL Danish or Swedish. Danish was subsumed into Norwegian the same way OTL Norwegian was overtaken by Danish, with many local dialects near the Roman border being heavily influenced by German, so I'll use Bokmål to write it. Swedish didn't diverge from Danish and then become distinct from it for political reasons (Sweden's rivalry with Denmark), so its dialects are still called "Dansk-Norsk," though I suppose a few of the more northern dialects in the Svealand region would be called "Svensk-Norsk." I'll write it with Nynorsk. Icelandic still exists in its OTL form and with its OTL name, so no changes there. Vinlandic/Kanatan Norse ("Vinland/Kanata-Norsk") will also be written using Icelandic since most of the earliest settlers came from Iceland and Greenland.
Looked a little more into the status of written Old Norse, and it appeared literacy in the runic alphabet was relatively widespread among both commoners and the nobility, though use of parchment was primarily the domain of Christian clergy. To flesh out the scenario a little more, I'll have Harald Hardrada adopt the printing press that Wilhelm brought back in time, then use it to standardize the runic alphabet (somewhere between Younger Futhark and the medieval runes). Then he codifies the Norse religion and rituals in a holy book, which is sort of like the Hávamál (name pending). Taking a little out of the "Norse Islam" from old lore, this holy book acts similar to the Qur'an in its significance for society (not in content, though they are both written in poetic form). It standardizes the Norse language, both the spoken and written form, and encourages further literary innovations. Norse society begins writing down laws and religious rites in text instead of keeping them in memory and transmitting them by voice. Printing presses in Oslo and other major cities are used to produce more copies of the holy texts, which standardize the religion further and tie it closely with the monarchy and the priestly class, so literacy is accompanied by support for the monarchy and spread of the "reformed" religion.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
No, but if I didn’t misremember it, it should be somewhere in the 70s-90s gameplay chapters.
Fair enough. On a slightly related note, given what happened to the Temple of Huitzilopochtli and the Brandenburg and Potsdam Palaces (at least in old lore if you decide to retcon that), wouldn't that mean the UVR would end up demolising the Temple of Uppsala? I'm gonna say no since that would be too radical a decision for the Norse to accept and we talked about the UVR supporting Ragnarokers against the monarchial-capitalist occupation zones.
If I do go this way, I’d have it it happen shortly before the last two of his officially acknowledged children are born.
So Adolf Doris and Eva Jessica would be the last two children to the right in the first image below. On that note, given how many children Saint Wilhelmina had and some of her grandson's illegitimate children trying to usurp the throne IIRC, how would the Reich go about preventing successions disputes without resorting to Ottoman style fratricide or Anniona incest?
1739646665473.png

1739646998342.png

I suppose, but Friedrich the Glorious would demonstrate his legitimacy by being just as capable a military leader as his grandfather, while Wilhelmina just plows straight ahead and adds it to the list of slander against her.

On a related note, I was looking into Friedrich the Great’s background. After reading up on William the Conqueror’s life, I think I’ll make him an illegitimate son of Burkard, Count of Zollern, with a peasant woman of Hechingen. This peasant then raises Friedrich in his early years before Burkard legitimizes him and brings him into his court (illegitimacy not being as heavily stigmatized and a disqualifier for kingship at this point). I’ll distinguish him from his legitimate half-brother (the OTL Hohenzollern) by calling that one “Friederich,” sort of like what I did in the Apocalypse arc. Anyways, Friedrich’s time living among peasants teaches him empathy for the common people, which he passes on to Friederich, Heinrich, and Ida. Funny enough, since I won’t change William’s backstory, this makes them foils of each other. While both of them were raised by commoner mothers and were familiar with the plight of the common people, William was considered ruthless and brutal towards his opponents, while Friedrich was kinder and more tolerant.

The Zollerns of Friedrich’s line are raised to imperial immediacy by Heinrich when Friedrich marries Ida, which is how they become called Hohenzollerns. However, Friederich’s line is still known as Zollerns, even after becoming kings in their own right.

I still don’t have a good justification for why Berlin eventually becomes the capital. But the history of the region would be pushed up by 200 years due to Otto III successfully subduing the Slavs of the region and integrating Poland into the HRE, so the Nordmark still expands east under the Udonids. As Counts of Stade, their capital is in Stade, in the Altmark (named as the only part of the Nordmark to not be lost in the 983 rebellion), instead of what I assumed in the old lore. I could say that Friedrich and his allies trained there and learned leadership under Lothar Udo II. Brandenburg an der Havel is designated as the capital of the restored Nordmark until Saint Wilhelmina founds Berlin as a new capital free from the power politics of Constantinople and the HRE centers of power, yet still accessible due to its location on important trade routes. I don’t know, I’m just writing stuff down to hash it out.

The Reich’s flag comes from Friedrich combining the coat of arms of the OTL Hohenzollerns with a Byzantine double-headed eagle to create his own personal coat of arms, which becomes the imperial standard. The Seljuks also make use of the double-headed eagle as in OTL.

Nordenland uses the raven banner I’ve occasionally used here before, since I found that similar motifs were used by Harald. The specific design I used is a reconstruction, but it’s the most usable one I got.
So Fredrich now being born out of wedlock would be like GOT's Jon Snow or Kingdom of Heaven's depiction of Balian of Ibelin (I'm aware the historical Balian was a legitimate noble of Jerusalem just to be clear) in this case.

Speaking of William, I think I have a new idea for France. Since we prolong Otto III's reign at the expense of Henrich II, the later never gets the chance to meet Robert the Pios to normalize relations with France and drop Carolingian era claims to it, putting France firmly in the Papal camp, especially when William comes back from his failed English campaign, despite Philip I's conflict with the Pope.

I take it the Reich's reworked flag would be this Hohenzollern coat of arms with the Byzantine double-headed eagle imposed on it. Maybe changing the colors from black and yellow to gold and red, or gold and purple, would work better.
1739648768745.png
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Fair enough. On a slightly related note, given what happened to the Temple of Huitzilopochtli and the Brandenburg and Potsdam Palaces (at least in old lore if you decide to retcon that), wouldn't that mean the UVR would end up demolising the Temple of Uppsala? I'm gonna say no since that would be too radical a decision for the Norse to accept and we talked about the UVR supporting Ragnarokers against the monarchial-capitalist occupation zones.
Yep, the Temple of Uppsala is razed to the ground and the sacred tree cut down and burned to symbolize the triumph of UVR atheism over religion. However, seeds and other samples of the tree are preserved elsewhere alongside groves grown from its seeds outside Uppsala. I imagine that the destruction of the temple and the sacred tree are the inciting incident that radicalizes the Ragnarokers into open warfare. Though I also imagine the Ragnarokers as something of a big tent, including many left-wing factions that interpret Ragnarok in terms of class struggle and make rationalizations for the destruction of the temple to justify their continued alliance with the UVR.
So Adolf Doris and Eva Jessica would be the last two children to the right in the first image below. On that note, given how many children Saint Wilhelmina had and some of her grandson's illegitimate children trying to usurp the throne IIRC, how would the Reich go about preventing successions disputes without resorting to Ottoman style fratricide or Anniona incest?
Yes, that should be Adolf Doris and Eva Jessica.

I forgot to mention it in last night's post, but Friedrich would have made use of looser succession laws regarding illegitimate children to claim the imperial title in Germany. Friedrich the Glorious would codify primogeniture to allow Wilhelmina to succeed to the throne in the absence of male heirs. Finally, Wilhelmina codifies the succession rights of illegitimate heirs by putting them far down the line after legitimate heirs, primarily to prevent another Kirill from taking advantage of her father's primogeniture laws and attempting to usurp the throne. A codified succession law goes a long way towards preventing succession disputes in both the German and Greek halves of the empire. The Germans would still initially have their elections, but they become a formality and are gradually phased out over Wilhelmina's long reign. The Greeks would still see incidents where popular generals or politicians attempt to usurp the throne with the support of some troops, but Wilhelmina's strengthening of legal institutions and full codification of the succession laws creates a growing mentality that the emperor can only be proclaimed by law, not the army. It helps that Wilhelmina is a capable and popular military leader in her own right and reigned for so long, thus entrenching that mentality over the decades.

Wilhelmina and her scholars use the Epanagoge, specifically the sections written by Ecumenical Patriarch Photios I to argue that the emperor is still subject to his own laws, and thus all emperors must obey the law of primogeniture as set by both her and her father (admittedly I got this from a summary of that specific passage in Age of Miracles since I don't have access to the text itself right now). Photios' philosophy is significantly patronized by Saint Wilhelmina's court and is one contributing factor towards humanism becoming entrenched in Roman culture. His argument against the filoque clause in The Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit (though technically this came before the filoque clause was added in the west) is put into the canon of the Latin rite as part of the Mending of the Schism.
So Fredrich now being born out of wedlock would be like GOT's Jon Snow or Kingdom of Heaven's depiction of Balian of Ibelin (I'm aware the historical Balian was a legitimate noble of Jerusalem just to be clear) in this case.
Yes, though I drew more from OTL William the Conqueror. Many of his closest allies were very similar to what I envisioned for Friedrich's friends. His father arranged for his mother to marry one of his knights so she was set for life, and her sons with those knights became among William's most trusted companions (at least until 1066). Her brother, William's uncle, was also said (but take it with a grain of salt) to have sheltered him among the peasantry during challenges to his rule, similar to my initial idea for Werner as a father figure.
Speaking of William, I think I have a new idea for France. Since we prolong Otto III's reign at the expense of Henrich II, the later never gets the chance to meet Robert the Pios to normalize relations with France and drop Carolingian era claims to it, putting France firmly in the Papal camp, especially when William comes back from his failed English campaign, despite Philip I's conflict with the Pope.
Good idea, didn't notice that. Robert the Pious would rely more heavily on the Papacy with a more hostile HRE on his border and his own rule at home not fully established. That would lead to a fracturing of France between papal, imperial, and Norman factions (since the Normans also challenged French authority at times). I could see William and Robert Guiscard's rivalry with the king of France, either over regional politics or who is the better/higher ranking papal ally, ultimately fracturing the papal alliance. Maybe they pull a Manzikert at Cannae and withdraw their forces to let the king and his troops get annihilated, giving Friedrich and Alexios the victory.
I take it the Reich's reworked flag would be this Hohenzollern coat of arms with the Byzantine double-headed eagle imposed on it. Maybe changing the colors from black and yellow to gold and red, or gold and purple, would work better.
It works because there are some theories suggesting that the Byzantine double-headed eagle motif began under the Komnenoi (though the reasoning and actual use are still debated), so Alexios could suggest using an eagle with two heads, instead of a single headed eagle like both empires used at the time, to symbolize the merging of east and west. I'll use the black and white for the Hohenzollern coat of arms in the background, then put an eagle over it. Probably the Byzantine style since the HRE style won't emerge for another few centuries.
 
  • 2
Reactions:
Now I'm feeling a little embarrassed. I think I might have asked a stupid question lol. :p
Don’t worry, it’s happened to me plenty of times on this site.
The UVR did attack Finland for Karelia and peaced out shortly before the 1926 revolutions, but I'm not sure how the UVR would reach Persia since that would require going through Turkestan?
I guess I just had one of those moments myself because for some reason I though that the UVR had the OTL Balkan Region (I swear it was not intentional). :p

In the interwar period, I’ll have the Yavdians setting up a government in exile their occupation zone in Finland. But the Yavdi government in exile isn’t as strong as the Finnish military, so it won’t be able to stand up to the UVR when it inevitably invades. However, it does stall the UVR advance for several years. The last holdouts are only destroyed around 1943, after which the UVR pours into northern Sweden by land and central Sweden in a naval invasion. For a Polish-Soviet War, maybe Turkestan in place of Persia, since old lore had them as “Poland.”
The more I think about it I can see Turkistan being similar to Spain and it having a Spanish Civil War type of conflict in were expeditionary forces from Iran, the Raj, and UVR all fighting for control with the Fascist side wining. Then take some inspiration from Austria and have Turkistan reorganize into a Federal State of Turkistan (similar to what Austria was like from 1934–1938 of OTL) then have TTL's Engelbert Dollfuss/Franco character is assassinated an replaced with a pro-Raj leader who allows Turkistan to be annexed by the Raj like Austria was to Germany during the Anschluss?

As for the Polish-Soviet war parallel you could combine it and the Soviet–Japanese border conflicts of which Khalkhin Gol being the most famous into one event?

I guess so. I might retcon the invasion of Yavdi to be the UVR sending troops to support a similar revolution there. The civil war against remnant monarchist and other anti-UVR forces would be part of a larger period of anti-UVR insurgency, after which the regime decides to establish the volost system to prevent any future rebellions from gaining a large support base and implement policies that eventually evolve into deromanization.
Makes me wonder about the insurgency in southern Rusia and if it will still play a part. Also would something like the Guerrilla war in the Baltic states still happen?

Yep, the Temple of Uppsala is razed to the ground and the sacred tree cut down and burned to symbolize the triumph of UVR atheism over religion. However, seeds and other samples of the tree are preserved elsewhere alongside groves grown from its seeds outside Uppsala. I imagine that the destruction of the temple and the sacred tree are the inciting incident that radicalizes the Ragnarokers into open warfare. Though I also imagine the Ragnarokers as something of a big tent, including many left-wing factions that interpret Ragnarok in terms of class struggle and make rationalizations for the destruction of the temple to justify their continued alliance with the UVR.
One idea for the ground that the Temple of Uppsala could be that the UVR could plan on building something like OTL's Palace of the Soviets (or some other Soviet construction project that was never built) but in TTL planning on it is halted by WWII and the stand in for Trotsky is similar to Stalin in that they losses interest in the project after the war?

I forgot to mention it in last night's post, but Friedrich would have made use of looser succession laws regarding illegitimate children to claim the imperial title in Germany. Friedrich the Glorious would codify primogeniture to allow Wilhelmina to succeed to the throne in the absence of male heirs. Finally, Wilhelmina codifies the succession rights of illegitimate heirs by putting them far down the line after legitimate heirs, primarily to prevent another Kirill from taking advantage of her father's primogeniture laws and attempting to usurp the throne. A codified succession law goes a long way towards preventing succession disputes in both the German and Greek halves of the empire. The Germans would still initially have their elections, but they become a formality and are gradually phased out over Wilhelmina's long reign. The Greeks would still see incidents where popular generals or politicians attempt to usurp the throne with the support of some troops, but Wilhelmina's strengthening of legal institutions and full codification of the succession laws creates a growing mentality that the emperor can only be proclaimed by law, not the army. It helps that Wilhelmina is a capable and popular military leader in her own right and reigned for so long, thus entrenching that mentality over the decades.

Wilhelmina and her scholars use the Epanagoge, specifically the sections written by Ecumenical Patriarch Photios I to argue that the emperor is still subject to his own laws, and thus all emperors must obey the law of primogeniture as set by both her and her father (admittedly I got this from a summary of that specific passage in Age of Miracles since I don't have access to the text itself right now). Photios' philosophy is significantly patronized by Saint Wilhelmina's court and is one contributing factor towards humanism becoming entrenched in Roman culture. His argument against the filoque clause in The Mystagogy of the Holy Spirit (though technically this came before the filoque clause was added in the west) is put into the canon of the Latin rite as part of the Mending of the Schism.
So since the Committee used Wilhelmina to legitimize some of their policies then can't our modern Wilhelmina use this law to claim the throne in the current part of the story?

Speaking of buildings. I know that in the past we talked about how the Chinese Tulou and Haudenosaunee Long House could be the bases of pre-industrial skyscrapers and apartment buildings respectively. Another idea that for some pre-Industrial Cities could come from Shibam in Yemen in how despite most of the buildings made out of mud it has gained the nicknames of "Manhattan of the Desert" and "Chicago of the Desert"?
 
  • 1
Reactions:
Yes, though I drew more from OTL William the Conqueror. Many of his closest allies were very similar to what I envisioned for Friedrich's friends. His father arranged for his mother to marry one of his knights so she was set for life, and her sons with those knights became among William's most trusted companions (at least until 1066). Her brother, William's uncle, was also said (but take it with a grain of salt) to have sheltered him among the peasantry during challenges to his rule, similar to my initial idea for Werner as a father figure.
I see, so I take it Ida would have some parallels to Matilda to Flanders as well as Matilda of Tuscany, especially since both Matilda's had rumors of infidelity.

I also wonder if Fredrich would have parallels to the life of his other Norman rival in Robert Guiscard? If nothing else, I could see echoes of Robert's nephew Roger II appearing in the reign of Fredrich the Great and his successors through his tolerance and cosmopolitanism, as you mentioned previously Saint Wilhelmina would be similar to HRE emperor Frederick II.
It works because there are some theories suggesting that the Byzantine double-headed eagle motif began under the Komnenoi (though the reasoning and actual use are still debated), so Alexios could suggest using an eagle with two heads, instead of a single headed eagle like both empires used at the time, to symbolize the merging of east and west. I'll use the black and white for the Hohenzollern coat of arms in the background, then put an eagle over it. Probably the Byzantine style since the HRE style won't emerge for another few centuries.
Alternatively, you could put the coat of arms in the middle of this flag. I wonder if this could work? My other idea is putting the eagle over a flag using the colors of both the OTL German empire and modern Germany with purple added somewhere, taking inspiration from Fusang's flag. Maybe you're idea could be used for the replacement of the Cold War era war flag.
1739661359918.png

The more I think about it I can see Turkistan being similar to Spain and it having a Spanish Civil War type of conflict in were expeditionary forces from Iran, the Raj, and UVR all fighting for control with the Fascist side wining. Then take some inspiration from Austria and have Turkistan reorganize into a Federal State of Turkistan (similar to what Austria was like from 1934–1938 of OTL) then have TTL's Engelbert Dollfuss/Franco character is assassinated an replaced with a pro-Raj leader who allows Turkistan to be annexed by the Raj like Austria was to Germany during the Anschluss?

As for the Polish-Soviet war parallel you could combine it and the Soviet–Japanese border conflicts of which Khalkhin Gol being the most famous into one event?
I'm pretty sure "Austria" was Paksthana in old lore, while Afghanistan and Turkestan were Czechoslovakia and Poland respectively, but I feel like the post WW1 Central Asia situation will be reworked, like China forcing the entire region together in a Yugoslavia like situation, like how that parallel was applied to the Bulbancha government/CSA and the UPRH.

On that note, I wonder how the HOI3 tags and national cabinets would be reworked? I assume both the Angeloi and Loyalist cabinets memebers would get renamed.
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:
I guess I just had one of those moments myself because for some reason I though that the UVR had the OTL Balkan Region (I swear it was not intentional). :p
Don't give me any ideas.:p
The more I think about it I can see Turkistan being similar to Spain and it having a Spanish Civil War type of conflict in were expeditionary forces from Iran, the Raj, and UVR all fighting for control with the Fascist side wining. Then take some inspiration from Austria and have Turkistan reorganize into a Federal State of Turkistan (similar to what Austria was like from 1934–1938 of OTL) then have TTL's Engelbert Dollfuss/Franco character is assassinated an replaced with a pro-Raj leader who allows Turkistan to be annexed by the Raj like Austria was to Germany during the Anschluss?
I'm pretty sure "Austria" was Paksthana in old lore, while Afghanistan and Turkestan were Czechoslovakia and Poland respectively, but I feel like the post WW1 Central Asia situation will be reworked, like China forcing the entire region together in a Yugoslavia like situation, which might fit better than that parallel being applied to the Bulbancha government/CSA and the UPRH.
Turkestan was more of the Poland in that it was the first to be attacked in World War II, while the "Paksthana" (most likely will be deleted as explained below) was the "1938 Austria." I thinkI'll change it so that initially Turkestan has Afghanistan and the "Paksthana" parts, but it soon enters a civil war between Turks, Afghans, Indians, and equalists which draws in all of its neighbors. But then that would mean I have to get the Reich involved in the war some other way. Maybe I'll just have the Angeloi rebel first, then the rest of the Axis come to support the Angeloi.
On that note, I wonder how the HOI3 tags and national cabinets would be reworked? I assume both the Angeloi and Loyalist cabinets memebers would get renamed.
Yes, they'll be entirely ditched, but I'll keep the names of some of the Indian ministers. Angeloi and Loyalist ministers will be renamed to original characters. "Franco" in particular will be more thoroughly Norse.
As for the Polish-Soviet war parallel you could combine it and the Soviet–Japanese border conflicts of which Khalkhin Gol being the most famous into one event?
No, wouldn't really make sense to combine the two.
Makes me wonder about the insurgency in southern Rusia and if it will still play a part. Also would something like the Guerrilla war in the Baltic states still happen?
It should still be there.
One idea for the ground that the Temple of Uppsala could be that the UVR could plan on building something like OTL's Palace of the Soviets (or some other Soviet construction project that was never built) but in TTL planning on it is halted by WWII and the stand in for Trotsky is similar to Stalin in that they losses interest in the project after the war?
Yeah, they could do that, since they did the same thing to Brandenburg Palace. On a side note, "Sanssouci Palace" (rename pending) would probably be built in Brandenburg an der Havel (on the site of an older castle that was destroyed by the Mexica), while Hohenzollern Castle in Hechingen would be the residence of the Zollerns (presumably raised to imperial immediacy too by the main branch).
So since the Committee used Wilhelmina to legitimize some of their policies then can't our modern Wilhelmina use this law to claim the throne in the current part of the story?
Jerusalem used the illegitimacy argument to discredit the entire modern line of Hohenzollerns after they no longer had a use for Wilhelm Karl and his son, allowing them to deny Wilhelmina a claim and keep the throne empty so the committee can rule as permanent regents for an empty throne. At that point, the rule of law and the Augustinian Code have been thoroughly trampled, so any attempts to apply and enforce the law will fall on deaf ears. The only thing that could have put Wilhelmina on the throne was military force, which she didn't have. She can't do it now that the committee is gone, because people have a problem not with her but with the idea of monarchy in general.
Speaking of buildings. I know that in the past we talked about how the Chinese Tulou and Haudenosaunee Long House could be the bases of pre-industrial skyscrapers and apartment buildings respectively. Another idea that for some pre-Industrial Cities could come from Shibam in Yemen in how despite most of the buildings made out of mud it has gained the nicknames of "Manhattan of the Desert" and "Chicago of the Desert"?
Good ideas. I can see skyscraper-like architecture emerging in Fusang, especially in Hongzhou because of all of the mountains nearby and the abundance of really sturdy wood.
I see, so I take it Ida would have some parallels to Matilda to Flanders as well as Matilda of Tuscany, especially since both Matilda's had rumors of infidelity.
Yep. Maybe also Sikelgaita too if I have her commanding troops in battle, though she would be staying behind in Germany most of the time to watch over Friedrich's domains when he's off campaigning. The relationship between William/Matilda of Flanders and Friedrich/Ida would also have parallels, since both men would be fully devoted to their wives (William in OTL took no mistresses and had no illegitimate children, which was unusual for medieval kings), who in turn were powerful figures in their own right. Matilda of Tuscany would still have allegations of infidelity but from the papal side now, since I'm having her eventually align with the imperial faction because her legal husband remained a major papal ally.
I also wonder if Fredrich would have parallels to the life of his other Norman rival in Robert Guiscard? If nothing else, I could see echoes of Robert's nephew Roger II appearing in the reign of Fredrich the Great and his successors through his tolerance and cosmopolitanism.
No, I don't think so. Robert was a conqueror, not an administrator like Roger. From what Anna Komnena says of him, his record during sieges, and the words on his epigraph, he seemed like quite a ruthless and intimidating leader. While William had the same background as Friedirch, Robert would have the same military capabilities, but neither of them had Friedrich's tolerance and kindness.

While looking this up, I realized there could possibly be a time where Robert, his brother William Iron Arm, and Harald Hardrada yet again could conceivably be fighting together under George Maniakes during his campaign in Sicily.
Alternatively, you could put the coat of arms in the middle of this flag. I wonder if this could work? My other idea is putting the eagle over a flag using the colors of both the OTL German empire and modern Germany with purple added somewhere, taking inspiration from Fusang's flag. Maybe you're idea could be used for the replacement of the Cold War era war flag.
I suppose that works for the modern flag, putting the Zollern coat of arms in the middle over the chi-ro. For the medieval era, when it would be a coat of arms on a banner, it would be the eagle set over the Zollern coat of arms, to symbolize the imperial status of the Hohenzollerns and their reunification of the two empires. I don't think using the colors of the German Empire make sense, since those were based on Prussian and Hanseatic colors, while the modern German flag colors seem to have their roots in the liberal revolutions of the 1840s. Though I can see certain political movements adopting a tricolor (or 4-5 color flag) without the eagle and the Hohenzollern black and white.
 
  • 2
Reactions: