The Hohenzollern Chronicles 5: Reborn Phoenix - The Roman Story in New World Order

[zenphoenix]

Scandinavia would be a name that is popular in the Reich from the early modern era, but by then “Nordenland” would be been established and soon overtakes it in usage. By the 20th century, it’s just a vestigial name, similar to usage of “Ruthenia” to refer to all of the old Kyivan Rus’ territories instead of various smaller regions with Slav populations.

Another addition to the Norse lore.

I mentioned Harald put his capital in Sigtuna, since Sweden was the first crown he got, but it would make more sense to move it to Oslo (the name works without Christianity, but in CK2 I might call it Ánslo). Harald would still have personal ties to Norway due to his family. The Kongsberg silver mines would be close by and more directly under royal control with him in Oslo. Its position facing out to the North Sea and the Atlantic puts it in a good position to take advantage of trade with the Reich and initially to maintain the conquests in Britain and Iberia. The capital being in Sigtuna, facing the Baltic, would signal an aggressive stance against the Lithuanian tribes and Rus' (while Scandinavia did conquer much of the eastern Baltic in CK2, I'll say it's mostly trading outposts and a few settler colonies, and the Norse in this era would at least be friendly with the Rus' due to the Volga trade and Norse khans existing further east), and putting it in Denmark is dangerous due to the large remaining Christian population in Denmark and the Reich being nearby. In OTL Oslo is traditionally said to have been founded by Harald around 1049, so I could have him establishing Oslo as a new capital free from old centers of power dominated by the nobility and a neutral choice that won't show too much favoritism for one region or another (also because of the ongoing civil war against Sweyn Estridsson in Denmark). Sigtuna would still be a major religious center, where the Norse kings go to be crowned at the Temple of Uppsala.

This also brings up the matter of the official language. It's still Old Norse, specifically the Old Norwegian dialect, so that's what I'll generally use for names going forward. Since the whole country is unified under a single government, the Norwegian, Danish, Swedish, and Icelandic languages are classified as dialects of the same language. Out of universe I'll still call it "Norse" for convenience. In-universe...it's a bit complicated. Wikipedia says that "Old Norse" was called either norrǿnt mál ("Northern speech") or dǫnsk tunga ("Danish tongue"), but from what I found, the former specifically referred to Norwegian. I won't use either. The whole business with Harald's capital lines up neatly here. He promotes the Old Norwegian dialect as the language of court, so the official language is called Norðanmál ("Northern speech" but I changed it a bit), which eventually evolves into the Norwegian Nordenmål. Because the whole of Nordenland is one country, that is used as the official name of the language. However, the informal Norsk is also used. In an official context there is a distinction between Nordenmål, the language of the government and high society, and Norsk, the language of the regular people (for every dialect across the country). In practice both are used interchangeably, which leads to the Reich generally calling it "Norse" (officially "Nordenisch," archaically "Danish" because of interactions with Christian Danes, who also call many of their eastern dialects "Dansk").

I'll use Icelandic if I have to write Old Norse for things other than names or OTL Norse texts in CK2, then Norwegian Bokmål from later EU4 onward, and Nynorsk for regional dialects. I won't be using either OTL Danish or Swedish. Danish was subsumed into Norwegian the same way OTL Norwegian was overtaken by Danish, with many local dialects near the Roman border being heavily influenced by German, so I'll use Bokmål to write it. Swedish didn't diverge from Danish and then become distinct from it for political reasons (Sweden's rivalry with Denmark), so its dialects are still called "Dansk-Norsk," though I suppose a few of the more northern dialects in the Svealand region would be called "Svensk-Norsk." I'll write it with Nynorsk. Icelandic still exists in its OTL form and with its OTL name, so no changes there. Vinlandic/Kanatan Norse ("Vinland/Kanata-Norsk") will also be written using Icelandic since most of the earliest settlers came from Iceland and Greenland.

You know, all this talk of capitals and languages got me rethinking the post-World War I scenario for Nordenland. The whole deal with the three occupation zones never sat well with me, but back then I went with it because "haha Kaiserreich reference." So I'd like to rework it a little bit. Northern Nordenland, which has a lot of Sami people, falls under Yavdian occupation. Jutland falls under Roman occupation. Everything else is put under joint Kanatan/Rusian occupation, but due to geography the Kanatans concentrate in the west and the Rusians in the east. When the revolutions hit, the fleeing monarchies set up governments in exile in their occupation zones as usual. Markos Angelos turns the Jutland occupation zone into a full province of the Reich. The fall of his regime leads to the UVR pushing all the way to the Weser River (a bit further than the Elbe, since the Angeloi forces focused their attention on the loyalists in the west) and up into Jutland. In the north, the UVR overruns the center of OTL Sweden via amphibious invasion at Uppsala/Sigtuna. This results in the northern regions being encircled and eventually falling, but it is unable to break through the southern forests into Götaland, over the western mountains into Norway, or across the islands of the Kattegat (called "Jutland Sea"). In Jutland and Sweden, the UVR attempts a policy of de-Nordenization and attempts to promote the different dialects as official languages of its constituent volosts to break them off from Nordenland and destroy Nordenland as a concept. The post-World War III reunification zones are there because political, linguistic, and economic differences have been made so vast that a quick reunification is beyond Nordenland's capabilities (and Nordenland was on the front lines of that war and massively suffered). I suppose the governments in exile are still there in Oslo until they return home.

By pushing the Iron Curtain further west, I can make the UVR even stronger and threatening. Control of northern Sweden and Denmark (and probably a bit of northern Norway) gives it nearly complete control over the Baltic Sea, ports on the North Sea and North Atlantic from which it can deploy large navies and air forces, and the ability to effectively resupply and receive aid from equalist North Eimerica. Control over Bremen, Bremerhaven, and much of central Germany puts much of Western Europe under threat of UVR missile and air strikes and amphibious/paratrooper invasions, particularly England, Scotland, Ireland, and France. It'll allow me to keep the Fulda Gap as a strategic military location. Attacks on Western Europe would get a large number of its population killed and devastate its economy, leading to the growth of right-wing populism there after the war.

 

[zenphoenix]

I hope this is a quick and short post. Don’t have much time to research or write tonight. The topic shifted back to the New World because I wanted more ways of justifying Sunset Invasion and I can now take advantage of a 769 POD.

First thing is the Classic Maya collapse, most of which takes place after 769. It’s still debated about what exactly caused it, and I’m not going to go over it, but it’ll still happen. Before that, though, I’ll have the Mayans first discover Cuba while searching for new trade routes, then establish a few trade outposts there that eventually grow into kingdoms and merchant republics and stuff like that. Why do they go there? I don’t know, but this is all plausible so whatever. The collapse happens and a lot of Mayans flee to Cuba. Also I guess they invent sails at some point since that was also plausible. Cuba has relatively easy to access iron mines (that I know of right now, could be wrong), so I’ll have them develop basic ironworking at some point in the next 150 years (or the Andalusian exiles teach them when they arrive in 1085). The Mexica expansion results in even more Mayans fleeing to the Caribbean. By 1300, they’ve settled every major island and set up a thalassocracy with their new boats. Timeline is long enough that it should work, unless you guys have other suggestions.

Around 1000, the Norse arrive in Vinland. There’s a lot of bog iron in Newfoundland, and there are slightly different priorities that I don’t feel like getting into right now. But these priorities result in more settlers and traders showing up, meaning more exploitation of local bog iron deposits and cutting down forests for wood. After some initial misunderstandings, they come to an understanding with the natives and stop the raids.

In the 1040s, Harald Hardrada seeks more iron and wood to fuel his wars, especially against Sweyn Estridsson. Norse traders head to the mainland. They interact more with the locals, though their settlements are generally trade outposts here. The most important things they bring, some of it unintentionally, are ironworking, knowledge of iron deposits, horses and other livestock, and diseases. An ironworking tradition develops in the Northeast region among the Haudenosaunee ancestors, and a trade network emerges selling iron and other metals to the Norse, drawing iron and copper from as far away as the Great Lakes. European iron weapons gradually filter into the Northeast and the Great Lakes regions, and ironworking eventually spreads to the ancestors of the Meskwaki and their neighbors, as well as the society of the recently established Cahokia.

Some Norse warriors, seeking glory (or being covertly directed by the Worm Cult), head further south and encounter the Mayan trade network, which has reached Florida and the Mississippi delta. Those who try to fight don’t get far, many of them captured by Mayans who quickly interrogate them for their skills or just kill them and take their stuff. Others sell their stuff for gold and silver. A small trade of gold and silver begins flowing back to Europe with the iron and wood, which Harald uses to pay and arm his men. Gradually, some of these Norse weapons, horses, boats, and sometimes the Norse themselves end up in the hands of the early Mexica. The Worm Cult directs the Acatls to execute their plans.

In 1066, the Mexica Empire begins its expansion. They have successfully gotten a breeding population of horses from those they bought from the Mayans, as well as some iron weapons. They use this to rapidly expand first south, taking the Mayan cities of the Yucatán and their iron deposits, and then north.

Around 1085, the refugees from the Taifa of Seville arrive in the Mayan sphere, bringing their knowledge with them. The political entities of the Caribbean islands and Yucatán begin consolidating and militarizing in response to Mexica aggression.

Around the 1140s or so, the Song refugees arrive in the Pacific Northwest and find plentiful bog iron deposits in the Puget Sound and Columbia River. After reaching the plains, Yelü Dashi grants horses to his native allies, some of whom lose track of them and let escape into the wild.

From the late 12th century onwards, the trade networks set up by the Chinese, Norse, and Mayans come together, allowing iron and horses to freely flow between them. The Mexica gradually expand north and then east, subjugating the tribes they find. Cahokia is sacked. Tawantinsuyu gradually emerges, and Chinese advisors help it find and smelt iron in Bolivia. By the 13th century, they have developed ships on par with the Mayans, with which they conquer Cuba. With control over the Southeast (north of Florida), they begin cutting down trees to construct a massive fleet. With large amounts of iron and a decently large horse population that can be used for transportation, construction, and farming, they can sustain a much larger population and a more centralized regime. Constant warfare against the northern tribes and the Liao hones the Mexica armies into the most feared on the continent. Eventually, Ocuil Acatl receives orders to cross the ocean. A massive fleet is constructed in the Southeast using the wood there, iron drawn from all over the continent, and the shipbuilding skills of captured Mayans.

The Mexica first advance north to secure jumping off points for the invasion route. The Haudenosaunee confederacy forms and successfully holds off the Mexica with their own iron weapons and horses, while the Meskwaki do the same. But the Mexica still establish their coastal footholds, which they use to strike at Vinland. The iron mines and foundries are put to use forging more iron tools for the Mexica, and before long Ocuil Acatl is sailing for Greenland and Iceland. Since copper and obsidian are far more abundant than iron and tin, his soldiers mainly use copper and obsidian weapons, while bronze and iron weapons are reserved for elite warriors and his commanders, though most iron is used for tools and construction materials.

Okay that took me about an hour and I’m not fully satisfied with how things come together (at some point it just becomes “Vinland solves everything and Harald is bloodthirsty”), but I’ve stayed up way too late these last couple weeks doing research.

 

[zenphoenix]

Slept on it and did a little more research on Vinland's logistics, since that's the thing that sticks out the most in the above scenario. Also, I thought about the 1085 taifa refugees scenario and realized that was also a product of a hard 1066 POD. Since I now allow minor changes back to 769, it's no longer necessary andI can just use actual people from the Caliphate of Cordoba. I don't have to go back that far either. So anyways, here's a reworked outline of how to justify North Eimerica.

9th-10th century: Mayans establish small trade connections with Cuba near the end of the Classic Period. The Classic Maya Collapse happens. The cause is irrelevant, but I'll make the disruption of copper trade from western Mexico even larger. This forces many Mayans, particularly the Ch'orti' in eastern Yucatan (around eastern Guatemala and the Maya Mountains), to begin smelting iron for tools and weapons. Copán barely survives the collapse (instead of falling around 800-830) by trading iron tools to its neighbors in the absence of copper. Sturdier iron tools that allow for more effective mining and clearing of forests staves off the worst of the collapse and allows for coastal polities to begin developing more complex boats (like outrigger canoes). They eventually reestablish contact with Cuba, and many Mayans migrate from the overpopulated and chaotic Yucatan to the island.

10th century: Mayans gradually expand through the Caribbean, mostly by trade. By 1000, there are many city states all over the islands, mostly in Cuba due to the large copper mines in the east (those iron mines I mentioned in the west? Apparently they were from meteorites...), though by now iron has been fully adopted over copper and the iron trade with Copán (and later Oaxaca) becomes extremely lucrative. The decentralized and Post-Classic nature of these settlements lends well to the game's depiction of Mayapan as a merchant republic (more on that later). These Mayans merge with the local Taíno and form new political states focused on trade. The Taíno bring their own expertise with island hopping to further improve Mayan shipbuilding. Sails are soon invented.

1000: The Norse arrive in Vinland and begin setting up colonies in Newfoundland. By sheer luck, they find the rich cod fisheries of the Grand Banks just south of the place. Their relations with the Beothuk are also more peaceful, and soon the Beothuk and Mikmaq pick up ironworking from the Norse. Vinland sends timber, iron, cod, falcons, walrus ivory, fur pelts, wool, and some gold back to Norway, while manufactured tools, livestock, and barley go the other way. Reykjavik becomes a somewhat significant port.

1016: The Umayyad dynasty is briefly deposed as caliphs of Cordoba by the Hammudid dynasty under Ali ibn Hammud al-Nasir. Two years later, his unpopularity leads to the people rallying around the Umayyad heir Abd al-Rahman IV. However, Abd al-Rahman himself is quickly deposed by Ali's brother Al-Qasim al-Ma'mun. In OTL he is murdered by his own troops in Cadiz, but here he is a bit more popular and capable and resists a bit longer. Yet this isn't enough to win him the throne, and with his enemies pushing in from all sides, he and his followers hijack several ships and load them with supplies and livestock. Since the Moroccan ports are under Hammudid control, they have no choice but to head west across the Atlantic, slightly encouraged by local rumors that Hisham II might have done the same a few years earlier. His brother Abd al-Rahman V joins him at first, but during the voyage a disagreement erupts between the two of them, and Abd al-Rahman V and his supporters break off, landing in Brazil where they set up a small settlement. The rest arrive in the Caribbean and encounter the Mayan thalassocracy.

1020s: The Umayyads quickly form alliances with the Mayan states they encounter, converting some to Islam in exchange for iron weapons, horses, and better ships. But the small number of Andalusian exiles means that they don't have much political or economic reach, so Abd al-Rahman IV's caliphate only spans a few islands. Proselytization is difficult because they don't have much else to offer, and expanding by the sword is also impractical, so Islamic theology gradually evolves to prioritize greater jihad (self-reflection and improvement) instead of lesser jihad (holy war). The Mayans, meanwhile, continue expanding. Mayan traders arrive at Bulbancha in the Mississippi Delta (not yet settled by Missisippians) and begin interacting with Mississippian trade networks, including the emerging Cahokia. Ironworking and other advanced technology from the Caribbean spreads back to the Yucatan, then to the Mexica heartland.

1040s: Harald Hardrada heavily relies on Vinland's iron, wood, and cod to fight Sweyn Estridsson in Denmark and the Baltics, encouraging Norse traders to expand out from Vinland proper. Settlers arrive in Markland (mainland Canada), where they find more grazing land for their cattle, sheep, and horses. Eventually a trade route is set up with the natives of the Great Lakes, who supply copper and other metals to Vinland in exchange for manufactured goods and livestock.

1050s: Cahokia becomes the middleman between the Mayan and Norse spheres. I was a little overambitious assuming the Norse could directly interact with the Mayans by now, so they won't. Societies along the Mississippi Delta and around Florida grow in complexity as they learn from the Mayan states. Mayan script evolves to suit the new trade-focused societies. The Yucatan begins recovering and reorganizing into complex centralized societies, with coastal cities benefiting most due to trade.

1066: The Mexica Empire begins its expansion. It first targets southern Mexico and the Yucatan for their iron mines, causing another wave of migration to the Caribbean, then western Mexico. Meanwhile, a Song Dynasty merchant ship heading for Japan is blown off course to the Pacific Northwest. The crew comes to an understanding with the locals in exchange for getting supplies for repairs. When they return home, they bring with them a young boy who is ordained as a monk.

1080s: The Mexica begin expanding north towards Texas. The lack of pack animals slows their initial military campaigns.

1100: The Mexica Empire takes Bulbancha and begins diverting trade revenue from Cahokia and the Mayan Caribbean states to its territories. It begins building a fleet to conquer Cuba.

1120s: Cuba falls to the Mexica. The remaining city-states band together in the League of Mayapan, centered on the city of Mayapan (New Peten in old lore). Mexica raids reach far into the Eastern Woodlands and up the Mississippi, encouraging political centralization.

1140s-1150s: After subjugating Oasisamerica and the Sonora region, the Mexica Empire begins expanding onto the plains the same time as Yelü Dashi and his troops cross the Rockies. The two begin fighting. Dashi realizes that his horses give him a massive advantage over the numerically and logistically superior Mexica. Leaving behind a group who with the Puebloans becomes the sedentary Liao of Liaoning, he embraces cavalry tactics and breeds more horses to grant to his native allies. Many of those allies aren't as capable as Dashi's Khitans and are either wiped out by the Mexica or forced to abandon their horses, which fall into Mexica hands. By the end of the century, the Mexica have obtained their own horse population and begun training cavalry.

1180s-1200: The Mexica embark on a second period of expansion, now fueled by horses. The Southeast falls to their armies, and naval bases are established on the eastern coast to get around the Mayans' control of the Caribbean.

1230s: The Sunset Invasion begins. I'm just going to go back to the original idea of sailing directly across the Atlantic using the Gulf Stream instead of going through Vinland, Greenland, and Iceland. Ocuil Acatl's fleets hit Ireland first. Using Ireland as a base, he then launches his three waves: Norway and Iceland, Scotland and England, and then Iberia and Mauretania. Vinland isn't destroyed (but Greenland is), just isolated from Europe.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Saint Wilhelmina, who is born the following year as Friedrich the Glorious' first child (she's born in 1110 extrapolating back from being 16 in 1126), is given the middle name Alfonso in his memory. Part of me wants her to be Gunhilda's actual daughter. I can change it so that Konstantia Gavras, Friedrich the Glorious' first wife, was married to him to secure Theodoros Gavras' loyalty during his regency, but they don't have any children. She dies from illness in 1104, and Friedrich the Great, shortly before leaving for England, approves of his grandson's remarriage to Gunhilda (they all ignore the incident with Sbyslava and are unaware of Kirill).

Since Anna Doukaina died in 1086, would it make sense to have Konstantina married to Prince Wilhelm and have Fredrich first married to Sbyslava instead to give Kirill a better claim, with the Perm crusade in the timeline moved up earlier in the timeline of course?

Looming quickly, I think I can add in further justification for the anti-Almoravid Taifa of Seville exiles leaving for the New World after 1085. Maybe they heard rumors that the caliph Hisham II, who most likely died in 1013 during a sack of Cordoba, is still alive. These rumors were popular in OTL and used by the first taifa leaders to legitimize their rule with the excuse that they were just governing autonomously until his return. I could have the rumors take a different path specifically in Seville, where some of them allege that Hisham II and his supporters managed to escape Cordoba, get to Seville, and then sail away in a fleet somewhere, either to Mali or a land across the ocean (drawing more from local Andalusian folk legends of phantom islands than anything to do with Vinland). There, Hisham is gathering an army of the faithful to take back his throne and restore the caliphate to greatness. I’ll leave it ambiguous as to if Hisham actually did any of this (and if he did, he’d probably be dead by then), because it doesn’t matter, as the exiles decide to act on those legends.

Now while most of them would end up in Mayapan, I actually want to resurrect my original idea by having some of them to get blown off course and establish a small Muslim settlement in South Eimerica that is eventually absorbed by Neurhomania. But there aren’t any spare Umayyads to send with them, since by 1085 the only Umayyad I can find is Wallada bint al-Mustakfi, that “last Umayyad” we’ve discussed before. Creating any original male Umayyads at any point after 1031 risks stalling out the collapse of the Caliphate of Cordoba and affecting the development of the taifa period, which would mess up the later Iberian stuff. As a consolation, I might have the Reich install a grandson of al-Mustakfi (or maybe a great-nephew of an original sister of hers, to avoid having to figure out her sexual orientation) as a figurehead caliph for the remaining Muslims of Iberia (making there eventually 4 caliphs subservient to the Reich).

I’m now wondering what would have become of the the Saqaliba of Iberia out curiosity, since it seems like they took control of some taifas like Valencia?

By pushing the Iron Curtain further west, I can make the UVR even stronger and threatening. Control of northern Sweden and Denmark (and probably a bit of northern Norway) gives it nearly complete control over the Baltic Sea, ports on the North Sea and North Atlantic from which it can deploy large navies and air forces, and the ability to effectively resupply and receive aid from equalist North Eimerica. Control over Bremen, Bremerhaven, and much of central Germany puts much of Western Europe under threat of UVR missile and air strikes and amphibious/paratrooper invasions, particularly England, Scotland, Ireland, and France. It'll allow me to keep the Fulda Gap as a strategic military location. Attacks on Western Europe would get a large number of its population killed and devastate its economy, leading to the growth of right-wing populism there after the war.

Would SVI still be developed in Frankfurt, given how close it is to the frontlines?

5. About 1066 if we want to parallel what happens in Europe: In the early to mid 11th century, the emerging Mexica polity, armed with their advanced technology (and probably Worm shenanigans), destroy the declining Toltec Empire and inherit its political institutions and infrastructure, while also incorporating a lot of its culture into their own, as the OTL Aztecs saw themselves as the cultural and political successors of the Toltecs. Seeing the sign of the eagle and cactus a little bit to the south of the Toltec political center of Tula (Tula is about 60 miles north of Mexico City), they build Tenochtitlan on Lake Texcoco as a new center of Mesoamerican civilization. It's founded much earlier than in real life (OTL: ~1325), probably by the early 12th century at the latest.

I know most of what we know about the Toltec empire is based on Aztec/Spanish Colonial accounts, but I wonder if the early Mexica would pick a side in the Nonoalca/Cult of Quetzalcoatl and the Chichimeca/Cult of Tezcatlipoca conflict or if they would attack both of them? Either way, I could see Toltec refugees joining up with the Mayans like OTL and helping the defense of Mayapan against the Mexica.

 

[zenphoenix]

Since Anna Doukaina died in 1086, would it make sense to have Konstantina married to Prince Wilhelm and have Fredrich first married to Sbyslava instead to give Kirill a better claim, with the Perm crusade in the timeline moved up earlier in the timeline of course?

I think that should work. I can't find concrete birth years for Theodoros or any of his sons, but it seems his sons were young adults of marrying age by the late 1080s. Assuming that Konstantia was an original daughter of his born after 1066, she'd be about the same age as Prince Wilhelm. I'll have to check the save file at some point, but it might work. As for marrying Sbyslava, it works better if it were an affair, though I don't know how one of them would be able to get to the other.

I’m now wondering what would have become of the the Saqaliba of Iberia out curiosity, since it seems like they took control of some taifas like Valencia?

Presumably they were brought into Alfonso's pan-Spanish coalition against the Norse and were later integrated into the Roman administration.

Would SVI still be developed in Frankfurt, given how close it is to the frontlines?

Perhaps, since Tesla Dynamic being in Frankfurt is crucial to a lot of the modern day arcs.

I know most of what we know about the Toltec empire is based on Aztec/Spanish Colonial accounts, but I wonder if the early Mexica would pick a side in the Nonoalca/Cult of Quetzalcoatl and the Chichimeca/Cult of Tezcatlipoca conflict or if they would attack both of them? Either way, I could see Toltec refugees joining up with the Mayans like OTL and helping the defense of Mayapan against the Mexica.

I'd say that the Mexica come down solidly in favor of the Cult of Tezcatlipoca and against the Cult of Quetzalcoatl, but in a way that allows the latter to persist as a religious movement for the next few centuries until it eventually takes over the Mexica imperial state, leading to human sacrifices being phased out. I like the idea of Toltec refugees helping the Mayans in Mayapan.

 

[GhostRider124]

So Norse control over Andalusia isn't absolute and complete—it's generally limited to Cordoba, Toledo, and the northwestern areas where Andalusia meets Leon, while the independent jarldoms compete with Christian kingdoms, taifas, and Almoravid allies.

So we are still keeping the Norse rule over Andalusia and León with the Christian's near Aragon and the Almoravids around eastern Andalusia and Murcia like in "Chapter 10: Bicentennial"?

Looming quickly, I think I can add in further justification for the anti-Almoravid Taifa of Seville exiles leaving for the New World after 1085. Maybe they heard rumors that the caliph Hisham II, who most likely died in 1013 during a sack of Cordoba, is still alive. These rumors were popular in OTL and used by the first taifa leaders to legitimize their rule with the excuse that they were just governing autonomously until his return. I could have the rumors take a different path specifically in Seville, where some of them allege that Hisham II and his supporters managed to escape Cordoba, get to Seville, and then sail away in a fleet somewhere, either to Mali or a land across the ocean (drawing more from local Andalusian folk legends of phantom islands than anything to do with Vinland). There, Hisham is gathering an army of the faithful to take back his throne and restore the caliphate to greatness. I’ll leave it ambiguous as to if Hisham actually did any of this (and if he did, he’d probably be dead by then), because it doesn’t matter, as the exiles decide to act on those legends.

Now while most of them would end up in Mayapan, I actually want to resurrect my original idea by having some of them to get blown off course and establish a small Muslim settlement in South Eimerica that is eventually absorbed by Neurhomania. But there aren’t any spare Umayyads to send with them, since by 1085 the only Umayyad I can find is Wallada bint al-Mustakfi, that “last Umayyad” we’ve discussed before. Creating any original male Umayyads at any point after 1031 risks stalling out the collapse of the Caliphate of Cordoba and affecting the development of the taifa period, which would mess up the later Iberian stuff. As a consolation, I might have the Reich install a grandson of al-Mustakfi (or maybe a great-nephew of an original sister of hers, to avoid having to figure out her sexual orientation) as a figurehead caliph for the remaining Muslims of Iberia (making there eventually 4 caliphs subservient to the Reich).

Slept on it and did a little more research on Vinland's logistics, since that's the thing that sticks out the most in the above scenario. Also, I thought about the 1085 taifa refugees scenario and realized that was also a product of a hard 1066 POD. Since I now allow minor changes back to 769, it's no longer necessary andI can just use actual people from the Caliphate of Cordoba. I don't have to go back that far either. So anyways, here's a reworked outline of how to justify North Eimerica.

9th-10th century: Mayans establish small trade connections with Cuba near the end of the Classic Period. The Classic Maya Collapse happens. The cause is irrelevant, but I'll make the disruption of copper trade from western Mexico even larger. This forces many Mayans, particularly the Ch'orti' in eastern Yucatan (around eastern Guatemala and the Maya Mountains), to begin smelting iron for tools and weapons. Copán barely survives the collapse (instead of falling around 800-830) by trading iron tools to its neighbors in the absence of copper. Sturdier iron tools that allow for more effective mining and clearing of forests staves off the worst of the collapse and allows for coastal polities to begin developing more complex boats (like outrigger canoes). They eventually reestablish contact with Cuba, and many Mayans migrate from the overpopulated and chaotic Yucatan to the island.

10th century: Mayans gradually expand through the Caribbean, mostly by trade. By 1000, there are many city states all over the islands, mostly in Cuba due to the large copper mines in the east (those iron mines I mentioned in the west? Apparently they were from meteorites...), though by now iron has been fully adopted over copper and the iron trade with Copán (and later Oaxaca) becomes extremely lucrative. The decentralized and Post-Classic nature of these settlements lends well to the game's depiction of Mayapan as a merchant republic (more on that later). These Mayans merge with the local Taíno and form new political states focused on trade. The Taíno bring their own expertise with island hopping to further improve Mayan shipbuilding. Sails are soon invented.

1000: The Norse arrive in Vinland and begin setting up colonies in Newfoundland. By sheer luck, they find the rich cod fisheries of the Grand Banks just south of the place. Their relations with the Beothuk are also more peaceful, and soon the Beothuk and Mikmaq pick up ironworking from the Norse. Vinland sends timber, iron, cod, falcons, walrus ivory, fur pelts, wool, and some gold back to Norway, while manufactured tools, livestock, and barley go the other way. Reykjavik becomes a somewhat significant port.

1016: The Umayyad dynasty is briefly deposed as caliphs of Cordoba by the Hammudid dynasty under Ali ibn Hammud al-Nasir. Two years later, his unpopularity leads to the people rallying around the Umayyad heir Abd al-Rahman IV. However, Abd al-Rahman himself is quickly deposed by Ali's brother Al-Qasim al-Ma'mun. In OTL he is murdered by his own troops in Cadiz, but here he is a bit more popular and capable and resists a bit longer. Yet this isn't enough to win him the throne, and with his enemies pushing in from all sides, he and his followers hijack several ships and load them with supplies and livestock. Since the Moroccan ports are under Hammudid control, they have no choice but to head west across the Atlantic, slightly encouraged by local rumors that Hisham II might have done the same a few years earlier. His brother Abd al-Rahman V joins him at first, but during the voyage a disagreement erupts between the two of them, and Abd al-Rahman V and his supporters break off, landing in Brazil where they set up a small settlement. The rest arrive in the Caribbean and encounter the Mayan thalassocracy.

1020s: The Umayyads quickly form alliances with the Mayan states they encounter, converting some to Islam in exchange for iron weapons, horses, and better ships. But the small number of Andalusian exiles means that they don't have much political or economic reach, so Abd al-Rahman IV's caliphate only spans a few islands. Proselytization is difficult because they don't have much else to offer, and expanding by the sword is also impractical, so Islamic theology gradually evolves to prioritize greater jihad (self-reflection and improvement) instead of lesser jihad (holy war). The Mayans, meanwhile, continue expanding. Mayan traders arrive at Bulbancha in the Mississippi Delta (not yet settled by Missisippians) and begin interacting with Mississippian trade networks, including the emerging Cahokia. Ironworking and other advanced technology from the Caribbean spreads back to the Yucatan, then to the Mexica heartland.

1040s: Harald Hardrada heavily relies on Vinland's iron, wood, and cod to fight Sweyn Estridsson in Denmark and the Baltics, encouraging Norse traders to expand out from Vinland proper. Settlers arrive in Markland (mainland Canada), where they find more grazing land for their cattle, sheep, and horses. Eventually a trade route is set up with the natives of the Great Lakes, who supply copper and other metals to Vinland in exchange for manufactured goods and livestock.

1050s: Cahokia becomes the middleman between the Mayan and Norse spheres. I was a little overambitious assuming the Norse could directly interact with the Mayans by now, so they won't. Societies along the Mississippi Delta and around Florida grow in complexity as they learn from the Mayan states. Mayan script evolves to suit the new trade-focused societies. The Yucatan begins recovering and reorganizing into complex centralized societies, with coastal cities benefiting most due to trade.

1066: The Mexica Empire begins its expansion. It first targets southern Mexico and the Yucatan for their iron mines, causing another wave of migration to the Caribbean, then western Mexico. Meanwhile, a Song Dynasty merchant ship heading for Japan is blown off course to the Pacific Northwest. The crew comes to an understanding with the locals in exchange for getting supplies for repairs. When they return home, they bring with them a young boy who is ordained as a monk.

1080s: The Mexica begin expanding north towards Texas. The lack of pack animals slows their initial military campaigns.

1100: The Mexica Empire takes Bulbancha and begins diverting trade revenue from Cahokia and the Mayan Caribbean states to its territories. It begins building a fleet to conquer Cuba.

1120s: Cuba falls to the Mexica. The remaining city-states band together in the League of Mayapan, centered on the city of Mayapan (New Peten in old lore). Mexica raids reach far into the Eastern Woodlands and up the Mississippi, encouraging political centralization.

1140s-1150s: After subjugating Oasisamerica and the Sonora region, the Mexica Empire begins expanding onto the plains the same time as Yelü Dashi and his troops cross the Rockies. The two begin fighting. Dashi realizes that his horses give him a massive advantage over the numerically and logistically superior Mexica. Leaving behind a group who with the Puebloans becomes the sedentary Liao of Liaoning, he embraces cavalry tactics and breeds more horses to grant to his native allies. Many of those allies aren't as capable as Dashi's Khitans and are either wiped out by the Mexica or forced to abandon their horses, which fall into Mexica hands. By the end of the century, the Mexica have obtained their own horse population and begun training cavalry.

1180s-1200: The Mexica embark on a second period of expansion, now fueled by horses. The Southeast falls to their armies, and naval bases are established on the eastern coast to get around the Mayans' control of the Caribbean.

1230s: The Sunset Invasion begins. I'm just going to go back to the original idea of sailing directly across the Atlantic using the Gulf Stream instead of going through Vinland, Greenland, and Iceland. Ocuil Acatl's fleets hit Ireland first. Using Ireland as a base, he then launches his three waves: Norway and Iceland, Scotland and England, and then Iberia and Mauretania. Vinland isn't destroyed (but Greenland is), just isolated from Europe.

Like the combining of Islam and Zoroastrianism as apposed to Norse and Islam made more since I think the idea of Muslims being the main drivers of the Mexica's conquest of the Reich also sounds better than Norse slaves being brought down from Vinland.

I'll use Icelandic if I have to write Old Norse for things other than names or OTL Norse texts in CK2, then Norwegian Bokmål from later EU4 onward, and Nynorsk for regional dialects. I won't be using either OTL Danish or Swedish. Danish was subsumed into Norwegian the same way OTL Norwegian was overtaken by Danish, with many local dialects near the Roman border being heavily influenced by German, so I'll use Bokmål to write it. Swedish didn't diverge from Danish and then become distinct from it for political reasons (Sweden's rivalry with Denmark), so its dialects are still called "Dansk-Norsk," though I suppose a few of the more northern dialects in the Svealand region would be called "Svensk-Norsk." I'll write it with Nynorsk. Icelandic still exists in its OTL form and with its OTL name, so no changes there. Vinlandic/Kanatan Norse ("Vinland/Kanata-Norsk") will also be written using Icelandic since most of the earliest settlers came from Iceland and Greenland.

Makes sense due to many saying that Icelandic is more rooted in Ancient Norse than many modern Scandinavian languages are. Also I remember hearing that Faroese is also related to Ancient Norse and was wondering on what happens to it in TTL?

You know, all this talk of capitals and languages got me rethinking the post-World War I scenario for Nordenland. The whole deal with the three occupation zones never sat well with me, but back then I went with it because "haha Kaiserreich reference." So I'd like to rework it a little bit. Northern Nordenland, which has a lot of Sami people, falls under Yavdian occupation. Jutland falls under Roman occupation. Everything else is put under joint Kanatan/Rusian occupation, but due to geography the Kanatans concentrate in the west and the Rusians in the east. When the revolutions hit, the fleeing monarchies set up governments in exile in their occupation zones as usual. Markos Angelos turns the Jutland occupation zone into a full province of the Reich. The fall of his regime leads to the UVR pushing all the way to the Weser River (a bit further than the Elbe, since the Angeloi forces focused their attention on the loyalists in the west) and up into Jutland. In the north, the UVR overruns the center of OTL Sweden via amphibious invasion at Uppsala/Sigtuna. This results in the northern regions being encircled and eventually falling, but it is unable to break through the southern forests into Götaland, over the western mountains into Norway, or across the islands of the Kattegat (called "Jutland Sea"). In Jutland and Sweden, the UVR attempts a policy of de-Nordenization and attempts to promote the different dialects as official languages of its constituent volosts to break them off from Nordenland and destroy Nordenland as a concept. The post-World War III reunification zones are there because political, linguistic, and economic differences have been made so vast that a quick reunification is beyond Nordenland's capabilities (and Nordenland was on the front lines of that war and massively suffered). I suppose the governments in exile are still there in Oslo until they return home.

So the UVR has everything except Norway, Götaland and Svealand?

By pushing the Iron Curtain further west, I can make the UVR even stronger and threatening. Control of northern Sweden and Denmark (and probably a bit of northern Norway) gives it nearly complete control over the Baltic Sea, ports on the North Sea and North Atlantic from which it can deploy large navies and air forces, and the ability to effectively resupply and receive aid from equalist North Eimerica. Control over Bremen, Bremerhaven, and much of central Germany puts much of Western Europe under threat of UVR missile and air strikes and amphibious/paratrooper invasions, particularly England, Scotland, Ireland, and France. It'll allow me to keep the Fulda Gap as a strategic military location. Attacks on Western Europe would get a large number of its population killed and devastate its economy, leading to the growth of right-wing populism there after the war.

It also kind of compensates the UVR since they don't have Siberia like OTL's Russia does.

First thing is the Classic Maya collapse, most of which takes place after 769. It’s still debated about what exactly caused it, and I’m not going to go over it, but it’ll still happen. Before that, though, I’ll have the Mayans first discover Cuba while searching for new trade routes, then establish a few trade outposts there that eventually grow into kingdoms and merchant republics and stuff like that. Why do they go there? I don’t know, but this is all plausible so whatever. The collapse happens and a lot of Mayans flee to Cuba. Also I guess they invent sails at some point since that was also plausible. Cuba has relatively easy to access iron mines (that I know of right now, could be wrong), so I’ll have them develop basic ironworking at some point in the next 150 years (or the Andalusian exiles teach them when they arrive in 1085). The Mexica expansion results in even more Mayans fleeing to the Caribbean. By 1300, they’ve settled every major island and set up a thalassocracy with their new boats. Timeline is long enough that it should work, unless you guys have other suggestions.

How dose the Malian leader Mansa Musa and his supposed voyages to the new World fit into all of this?

The Mexica first advance north to secure jumping off points for the invasion route. The Haudenosaunee confederacy forms and successfully holds off the Mexica with their own iron weapons and horses, while the Meskwaki do the same. But the Mexica still establish their coastal footholds, which they use to strike at Vinland. The iron mines and foundries are put to use forging more iron tools for the Mexica, and before long Ocuil Acatl is sailing for Greenland and Iceland. Since copper and obsidian are far more abundant than iron and tin, his soldiers mainly use copper and obsidian weapons, while bronze and iron weapons are reserved for elite warriors and his commanders, though most iron is used for tools and construction materials.

1230s: The Sunset Invasion begins. I'm just going to go back to the original idea of sailing directly across the Atlantic using the Gulf Stream instead of going through Vinland, Greenland, and Iceland. Ocuil Acatl's fleets hit Ireland first. Using Ireland as a base, he then launches his three waves: Norway and Iceland, Scotland and England, and then Iberia and Mauretania. Vinland isn't destroyed (but Greenland is), just isolated from Europe.

So do the Haudenosaunee Confederacy survive and them and OTL's Vinland are not destroyed just cut off during the Sunset Invasion?

1016: The Umayyad dynasty is briefly deposed as caliphs of Cordoba by the Hammudid dynasty under Ali ibn Hammud al-Nasir. Two years later, his unpopularity leads to the people rallying around the Umayyad heir Abd al-Rahman IV. However, Abd al-Rahman himself is quickly deposed by Ali's brother Al-Qasim al-Ma'mun. In OTL he is murdered by his own troops in Cadiz, but here he is a bit more popular and capable and resists a bit longer. Yet this isn't enough to win him the throne, and with his enemies pushing in from all sides, he and his followers hijack several ships and load them with supplies and livestock. Since the Moroccan ports are under Hammudid control, they have no choice but to head west across the Atlantic, slightly encouraged by local rumors that Hisham II might have done the same a few years earlier. His brother Abd al-Rahman V joins him at first, but during the voyage a disagreement erupts between the two of them, and Abd al-Rahman V and his supporters break off, landing in Brazil where they set up a small settlement. The rest arrive in the Caribbean and encounter the Mayan thalassocracy.

I know that all four men had relatively short reigns but what would lead them to try and go to the new world. After looking at Hisham II's wikipedia page it says that he was used by some Taifa's to legitimize their rule but nothing about discovering the New World?

1040s: Harald Hardrada heavily relies on Vinland's iron, wood, and cod to fight Sweyn Estridsson in Denmark and the Baltics, encouraging Norse traders to expand out from Vinland proper. Settlers arrive in Markland (mainland Canada), where they find more grazing land for their cattle, sheep, and horses. Eventually a trade route is set up with the natives of the Great Lakes, who supply copper and other metals to Vinland in exchange for manufactured goods and livestock.

Was this after Hardrada united Sweden and Norway but before he conquered Denmark?

 

[zenphoenix]

So we are still keeping the Norse rule over Andalusia and León with the Christian's near Aragon and the Almoravids around eastern Andalusia and Murcia like in "Chapter 10: Bicentennial"?

Yes, but outside Leon the Norse rule is even more chaotic and decentralized. Instead of being “Norse Andalusia,” it’s a mess of Muslim, Christian, and Norse states emerging out of the collapse of the Almoravids and taifas.

Like the combining of Islam and Zoroastrianism as apposed to Norse and Islam made more since I think the idea of Muslims being the main drivers of the Mexica's conquest of the Reich also sounds better than Norse slaves being brought down from Vinland.

Yeah, I suppose the Almoravid exiles would be the main drivers of the Sunset Invasion, though part of me wants to preserve the ancient enmity between the Acatls and the Norse as well as the vanilla lore of the Norse being involved. Don’t know how to make it happen, though, since the distances and logistics involved are effectively impossible with 11th century knowledge and technology.

Makes sense due to many saying that Icelandic is more rooted in Ancient Norse than many modern Scandinavian languages are. Also I remember hearing that Faroese is also related to Ancient Norse and was wondering on what happens to it in TTL?

It’s probably still spoken in the Faroes. I’ll adjust the Sunset Invasion lore so that the Mexica don’t conquer them or the Orkneys either due to local resistance or Ocuil Acari not learning about them during his initial intel gathering voyages.

So the UVR has everything except Norway, Götaland and Svealand?

Yes. Though I might give them Trondheim and a few cities along the northern Norwegian coast to give them even more of an Atlantic presence.

It also kind of compensates the UVR since they don't have Siberia like OTL's Russia does.

And also that Yavdi was mostly conquered by the UVR instead of being part of it from the start.

How dose the Malian leader Mansa Musa and his supposed voyages to the new World fit into all of this?

That’s 14th century stuff, so I don’t have to worry about it for a while. Maybe it’s Mali attempting a Sunrise Invasion of its own, or I can push back Nsorala’s founding date.

So do the Haudenosaunee Confederacy survive and them and OTL's Vinland are not destroyed just cut off during the Sunset Invasion?

Yes, the Haudenosaunee and Meskwaki/Three Fires are the ones that stop the Mexica advance and end their expansion.

I know that all four men had relatively short reigns but what would lead them to try and go to the new world. After looking at Hisham II's wikipedia page it says that he was used by some Taifa's to legitimize their rule but nothing about discovering the New World?

I made up the whole bit of him going to the New World. He just died in OTL under really confusing circumstances when Cordoba got sacked, so the taifa leaders used the opportunity to legitimize themselves as merely governing his territory until his return.

Was this after Hardrada united Sweden and Norway but before he conquered Denmark?

Yes. Though technically it’s more fighting a pretender to the Danish throne and he’s already become king there by now.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Yes. Though I might give them Trondheim and a few cities along the northern Norwegian coast to give them even more of an Atlantic presence.

Aren't Uppsala and Sigtuna within Svealand though?

It’s probably still spoken in the Faroes. I’ll adjust the Sunset Invasion lore so that the Mexica don’t conquer them or the Orkneys either due to local resistance or Ocuil Acari not learning about them during his initial intel gathering voyages.

Maybe a partial conquest would work better, with some of the islands holding out better than others?

Anyways, I know the HOI3 idea of militant Wahabist/Salafist style Ragnaroker terriorists was repurposed for the WW4 chapters, but wouldn't the occupations lead to unrest like that, especially since there actually was a Ragnaroker rebellion shortly after the war? Perhaps the rebellion would force the non-UVR occupation zones to grant some rights and autonomy to the Norse under them. I also like to imagine Ragnar Beck being part of a reformist wing of the Ragnaroker movement that disavows the more militant sects and advocates for democracy, pacifism, and a diplomatic path to Nordenland liberation and reunification.

I think that should work. I can't find concrete birth years for Theodoros or any of his sons, but it seems his sons were young adults of marrying age by the late 1080s. Assuming that Konstantia was an original daughter of his born after 1066, she'd be about the same age as Prince Wilhelm. I'll have to check the save file at some point, but it might work. As for marrying Sbyslava, it works better if it were an affair, though I don't know how one of them would be able to get to the other.

I wonder how the timeline in this update would mesh with your new Rus' lore? Best I can think of is having Sbyslava become knyaz of Kyiv in 1094 at seven years old, so she's just one year younger than Fredrich the Glorious.

I'm really struggling with other ideas for the Sbyslava affair and I'm not fully sold on the Konstantia retcon, through I'm considering Wihelm's death being the cause of the Perm crusade and the anti-Polish purges somehow, maybe via the Worm cult ambushing him on route to Rusia for a trade agreement and blaming it on the Rusians and Poles. We could also have him die sailing in the English channel while returning from Fredrich the Great's last campaign or in the Mediterranean on route to Fatmid purges, resulting in either the French or Muslim purges.

Pivoting back to the succession dispute between Kirill and Wilhelmina, I wonder how the ramifications of their parentages and births, assuming we go with the new ideas discussed recently, would shake out if we go with the Imperial and Papist sides backing one claimant over the other, like how well the Catholics would take to the Pope and the Perm crusaders supporting a male illegitimate child of a pagan empress? Conversely how would imperial nobles react to Saint Wilhelmina being a woman with a lowborn mother in the context of medieval societal norms and male-preference primogeniture?

Perhaps, since Tesla Dynamic being in Frankfurt is crucial to a lot of the modern day arcs.

Fair enough, might add more tension to the WW3 arc if anything. I assume you'll be keeping the Prague Spring, but given the importance of it to the Jerusalem arc, I wonder if the Budapest rebellion would be shifted over to Bremerhaven?

Since we're using the Annionaverse's 769 POD for minor changes, would the Tiwanaku and Wari empires last long enough to have an impact on Fusang's contact on the Andean civilizations? If we're keeping the Kingdom of Cusco/Twantinsuyu, then at least we can put Tiwanaku on the map as a consolidation prize, same with Nara.

Also would there be changes to the first two Iconoclasms that would affect the Great Schism or the Third Iconoclasm?

I know we've moved away from "What would (insert media) be here?" type questions, but researching the English Anarchy for this discussion reminds me of this book set in that period, so I wonder how in-universe media like it would lend itself well foundation of Berlin in the 12th century's political context, and would this book work as inspiration for your actual 12th century story arcs?

I also kind of want to know what the poetry of Rumi would be like here, or rather would how Sufism fare here in general?

 

[GhostRider124]

Yeah, I suppose the Almoravid exiles would be the main drivers of the Sunset Invasion, though part of me wants to preserve the ancient enmity between the Acatls and the Norse as well as the vanilla lore of the Norse being involved. Don’t know how to make it happen, though, since the distances and logistics involved are effectively impossible with 11th century knowledge and technology.

Yes, the Haudenosaunee and Meskwaki/Three Fires are the ones that stop the Mexica advance and end their expansion.

Well we talked about an invasion into Mauritania as the southern Invasion, one in France from Ireland being a central invasion, maybe the Northern Invasion could come through Scotland since Ireland appears to be busy with the Central and Southern Invasions and since other than Ireland Scotland was the part of Europe under Mexica rule the longest. You could also use it to explain how the Mexica settled in Scotland leading to characters like Izinchi?

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Yeah, I suppose the Almoravid exiles would be the main drivers of the Sunset Invasion, though part of me wants to preserve the ancient enmity between the Acatls and the Norse as well as the vanilla lore of the Norse being involved. Don’t know how to make it happen, though, since the distances and logistics involved are effectively impossible with 11th century knowledge and technology.

Some Norse warriors, seeking glory (or being covertly directed by the Worm Cult), head further south and encounter the Mayan trade network, which has reached Florida and the Mississippi delta. Those who try to fight don’t get far, many of them captured by Mayans who quickly interrogate them for their skills or just kill them and take their stuff. Others sell their stuff for gold and silver. A small trade of gold and silver begins flowing back to Europe with the iron and wood, which Harald uses to pay and arm his men. Gradually, some of these Norse weapons, horses, boats, and sometimes the Norse themselves end up in the hands of the early Mexica. The Worm Cult directs the Acatls to execute their plans.

You know what, maybe you could have these Norse either banished from Vinland or sold into slavey by Harald Hardrada for what ever reason, like being particularly rebellious Christians or something. I wonder if this can work?

 

[GhostRider124]

Since we're using the Annionaverse's 769 POD for minor changes, would the Tiwanaku and Wari empires last long enough to have an impact on Fusang's contact on the Andean civilizations? If we're keeping the Kingdom of Cusco/Twantinsuyu, then at least we can put Tiwanaku on the map as a consolidation prize, same with Nara.

According to the Wikipedia page under Political Relations an archaeologist named Joyce Marcus who works for the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor compared the Wari and Tiwanaku to the US and Soviet Union during the cold war in that both distrusted the other until they met at Moquegua to set aside their differences. One idea could be that the Mexica try and take advantage of this distrust and takes over the Wari leading to the Tiwanaku to holding the line at Cusco. After they push the Mexica north they could make it a new capitol?

You know what, maybe you could have these Norse either banished from Vinland or sold to slavey by Harald Hardrada personally for what ever reason, like being particularly rebellious Christians or something. Maybe the first option is more plausible due to the aforementioned logistical issues.

That or since Harald was busy with the Danish it could be that the governor of Vinland used being cut off from Europe during Sunset Invasion and exiled many of the pro-Harald supporters. This could explain why the Norse would "recolonize" it in EU4?

 

[zenphoenix]

Aren't Uppsala and Sigtuna within Svealand though?

Once again, I read too fast. Yes, Svealand fell to the UVR.

Maybe a partial conquest would work better, with some of the islands holding out better than others?

That could work.

Anyways, I know the HOI3 idea of militant Salafist style Ragnaroker terriorists was repurposed for the WW4 chapters, but wouldn't the occupations lead to unrest like that, especially since there actually was a Ragnaroker rebellion shortly after the war? Perhaps the rebellion would force the non-UVR occupation zones to grant some rights and autonomy to the Norse under them. I also like to imagine Ragnar Beck being part of a reformist wing of the Ragnaroker movement that disavows the more militant sects and advocates for democracy, pacifism, and a diplomatic path to Nordenland liberation and reunification.

There’d also be certain Ragnaroker factions that the UVR supports within the other occupation zones. I know that I mentioned The Troubles in the context of Kyushu, but it might fit better here in Nordenland. I like the idea of Ragnar Beck being a reformist Ragnaroker who attempts to negotiate peace, reunification, and liberation.

I wonder how the timeline in this update would mesh with your new Rus' lore? Best I can think of is having Sbyslava become knyaz of Kyiv in 1094 at seven years old, so she's just one year younger than Fredrich the Glorious. I'm really struggling with other ideas for the Sbyslava affair and I'm not fully sold on the Konstantia retcon, through I'm considering Wihelm's death being the cause of the Perm crusade and the anti-Polish purges somehow, maybe via the Worm cult ambushing him on route to Rusia for a trade agreement and blaming it on the Rusians and Poles. We could also have him die sailing in the English channel while returning from Fredrich the Great's last campaign or in the Mediterranean on route to Fatmid purges, resulting in either the French or Muslim purges.

I’m pretty sure Prince Wilhelm died when Friedrich the Glorious was only an infant (as I distinctly remember having to micromanage the Byzantine regency for at least 15 years), which would be in the late 1080s. Depending on how long I could make the Investiture Controversy wars go on for, I could have him die at Cannae or soon afterward due to Worm Cult trickery, in one last attempt to prevent the Roman restoration and fall of the Papacy.

For Sbyslava, I could have her be a royal princess from a Christian branch of the family, sent to Constantinople to negotiate a potential marriage and alliance that would resume the Christianization of Rus’. But the affair is interpreted as an insult (on the side of Byzantine nobles opposed to rule by Germans and wanting to deny Friedrich another ally), leading to the negotiations failing. Sbyslava returns home and seizes power with the help of local Christian factions, which realize that this is their last chance to take back power. She is the first ruler of Rus’ to adopt the title of tsar. From there, things proceed much as we previously discussed.

I’m also not quite sold on the Konstantia rework.

Pivoting back to the succession dispute between Kirill and Wilhelmina, I wonder how the ramifications of their parentages and births, assuming we go with the new ideas discussed recently, would shake out if we go with the Imperial and Papist sides backing one claimant over the other, like how well the Catholics would take to the Pope and the Perm crusaders supporting a male illegitimate child of a pagan empress? Conversely how would imperial nobles react to Saint Wilhelmina being a woman with a lowborn mother in the context of medieval societal norms and male-preference primogeniture?

If we go with the above idea of Sbyslava being one of the last Christian Rurikids and opposed by Byzantine nobles following the Greek rite, that could lead to a partnership between Kirill and the Latin rite. Thus Kirill not only is the last hope for a Christian Rus’, but the Catholic Church’s last chance to win the Investiture Controvery.

For Wilhelmina, being the daughter of a saint embraced by the Church (the Greek rite at least) would go a long way towards establishing legitimacy, especially in the east. The Byzantine nobles are used to empresses and initially think they can control her since she is very young. The German nobility would grumble because Salic law is being blatantly ignored, but Matilda of Tuscany (as a side note, I can actually make her an imperial ally by having the pope be more supportive of her anti-imperial husband than in OTL, though she’d start off as a neutral arbiter between the two sides like OTL before joining Heinrich and Friedrich near the end) and other women showed they could be capable rulers. Saint Gunhilda demonstrated a capable military mind surpassing those of many men. Most importantly, at Friedrich the Glorious’ death he had only had two daughters with Gunhilda (one who would be the founder of the Schweinfurts). I have to retcon Wilhelmina’s brother out because it’s the only way the Germans would accept a woman on the throne, there being no acceptable male heir. Seeing Wilhelmina’s age and gender, they think the same as the Greeks and assume she can be easily controlled and married off to someone of their choosing. Wilhelmina quickly takes control upon becoming Kaiserin and does much to legitimize women on the throne—commanding troops in battle, marrying a relatively no-name nobleman in Ali who is independent of other noble houses and will be unable to rule through her, and amending the succession law so that any future Kaiserins would rule in their own right and be succeeded by their own children, considered of their dynasty instead of that of their father, so that the throne will never pass outside the dynasty.

Furthermore, Salic law is never interpreted as barring women from all inheritance. The French scholar Jean de Montreuil, seeking to help prevent the king of England from inheriting the throne of France, doesn’t take the clause barring women from inheriting “a particular kind of private property” and adding in words that specify barring women from inheriting the kingdom. Though I wouldn’t say Salic law was already a firmly entrenched legal code that all western and central European dynasties were required to follow. Succession laws were changed and adhered to depending on political circumstances and who stood to benefit.

Pope Leo III’s crowning of Charlemagne in response to Irene of Athens taking power, claiming that women could not rule on their own, is denounced as papal trickery, and a pope installed by Wilhelmina issued a statement reversing it. Charlemagne’s legitimacy (and by extension that of the Holy Roman Emperors) is preserved by another declaration that God had first required both the western and eastern Roman empires to be restored before they could be united again.

If anything, Wilhelmina might have more opposition to being Kaiserin due to her mother’s ancestry and age instead of being a woman.

Fair enough, might add more tension to the WW3 arc if anything. I assume you'll be keeping the Prague Spring, but given the importance of it to the Jerusalem arc, I wonder if the Budapest rebellion would be shifted over to Bremerhaven?

I could possibly change it to Sigtuna, since I mentioned Tatiana had ties to Nordenland and her kids eventually settled there.

Since we're using the Annionaverse's 769 POD for minor changes, would the Tiwanaku and Wari empires last long enough to have an impact on Fusang's contact on the Andean civilizations? If we're keeping the Kingdom of Cusco/Twantinsuyu, then at least we can put Tiwanaku on the map as a consolidation prize, same with Nara.

I’m up for it too. I’ll make a note to add it the next time I update the map.

Since the collapse of the Wari Empire is believed to be due to centuries of drought, I don’t think I’ll be able to avert it even with a 769 POD. Furthermore, it and Tiwanaku’s collapses are instrumental towards other peoples in Peru adopting their social organization, agricultural practices, and technology. They are necessary for there to eventually be a Tawantinsuyu. However, I can still have their population centers remaining inhabited to be integrated into the emerging Tawantinsuyuan state. However, political power and economic activity has shifted away from the old capital of Wari and towards the religious center at Pachakamaq. Tiwanaku’s collapse might not have been caused by drought, but the same circumstances as the collapse of the Wari Empire apply here. I can still have it be a small town when Tawantinsuyu inevitably emerges. But Fusang would deal with the newer civilizations further north.

Also would there be changes to the first two Iconoclasms that would affect the Great Schism or the Third Iconoclasm?

Most of the First Iconoclasm happened before 769, and Irene of Athens is indirectly crucial to Charlemagne’s rise to power so I’m not going to change her history. However, I can have her successfully negotiate a marriage between her son Constantine and Charlemagne’s daughter Rotrude. There’s nothing in the Second Iconoclasm I can find to change.

I know we've moved away from "What would (insert media) be here?" type questions, but researching the English Anarchy for this discussion reminds me of this book set in that period, so I wonder how in-universe media like it would lend itself well foundation of Berlin in the 12th century's political context, and would this book work as inspiration for your actual 12th century story arcs?

That might sound like a recurring background narrative to write about, showing a cathedral being built through the eras, instead of doing a book summary.

I also kind of want to know what the poetry of Rumi would be like here, or rather would how Sufi poetry fare here in general?

Probably one of the favored poets in the Seljuk court, despite his religion. I don’t know how Sufi poetry would turn out, as that would require me to figure out the sect as a whole. However, I do think that Islam in general would shift to being more like Sufism as a result of all of the traditional institutions and communities being destroyed and scattered. Part of me wants to make the Islam of the Umayyad exiles become a Jewish-style ethnic religion in line with my older lore for European Islam.

Well we talked about an invasion into Mauritania as the southern Invasion, one in France from Ireland being a central invasion, maybe the Northern Invasion could come through Scotland since Ireland appears to be busy with the Central and Southern Invasions and since other than Ireland Scotland was the part of Europe under Mexica rule the longest. You could also use it to explain how the Mexica settled in Scotland leading to characters like Izinchi?

The fleet uses Ireland as a staging ground for invasions everywhere else. Scotland is the highest priority because it’s closest to Ireland, so like Ireland a lot of Mexica settled there. The northern wave then goes from Scotland to Norway and Iceland. The central wave focuses on England and France. The southern wave hits Iberia and Mauretania.

You know what, maybe you could have these Norse either banished from Vinland or sold into slavey by Harald Hardrada for what ever reason, like being particularly rebellious Christians or something. I wonder if this can work?

My previous comment initially had a scenario where outlawed Vinlanders were enslaved and changed hands until they reached Cahokia, then passed into the Mayan trade network, and from there to the Mexica homeland. However, I don’t know how to reasonably have them get into positions of power other than “the Worm Cult helped them.”

According to the Wikipedia page under Political Relations an archaeologist named Joyce Marcus who works for the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor compared the Wari and Tiwanaku to the US and Soviet Union during the cold war in that both distrusted the other until they met at Moquegua to set aside their differences. One idea could be that the Mexica try and take advantage of this distrust and takes over the Wari leading to the Tiwanaku to holding the line at Cusco. After they push the Mexica north they could make it a new capitol?

As said above, I have no choice but to keep their collapse at the start of the 11th century, only slightly changing local climate changes so it’s still practical to live in their cities. The most that Tawantinsuyu will find are scattered city-states and theocracies. Also, Tawantinsuyu would be in between them and the Mexica during such a war.

That or since Harald was busy with the Danish it could be that the governor of Vinland used being cut off from Europe during Sunset Invasion and exiled many of the pro-Harald supporters. This could explain why the Norse would "recolonize" it in EU4?

I’d rather that Vinland miraculously holds out, though with significant decentralization and many Norse joining neighboring native societies. “Recolonization” would just be a full reestablishment of the trade routes and a new wave of settlers arriving.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

There’d also be certain Ragnaroker factions that the UVR supports within the other occupation zones. I know that I mentioned The Troubles in the context of Kyushu, but it might fit better here in Nordenland. I like the idea of Ragnar Beck being a reformist Ragnaroker who attempts to negotiate peace, reunification, and liberation.

I kinda figured the Ragnarokers in UVR territory would be like the mujahideen of Afghanistan, but looking at the USSR's relationship with Islam, I suppose this could also work.

I’m pretty sure Prince Wilhelm died when Friedrich the Glorious was only an infant (as I distinctly remember having to micromanage the Byzantine regency for at least 15 years), which would be in the late 1080s. Depending on how long I could make the Investiture Controversy wars go on for, I could have him die at Cannae or soon afterward due to Worm Cult trickery, in one last attempt to prevent the Roman restoration and fall of the Papacy.

I was going off this, but I suppose there's nothing saying Prince Wilhelm's death can't be shifted around given the new Gunhilda lore.

For Sbyslava, I could have her be a royal princess from a Christian branch of the family, sent to Constantinople to negotiate a potential marriage and alliance that would resume the Christianization of Rus’. But the affair is interpreted as an insult (on the side of Byzantine nobles opposed to rule by Germans and wanting to deny Friedrich another ally), leading to the negotiations failing. Sbyslava returns home and seizes power with the help of local Christian factions, which realize that this is their last chance to take back power. She is the first ruler of Rus’ to adopt the title of tsar. From there, things proceed much as we previously discussed.

If we go with the above idea of Sbyslava being one of the last Christian Rurikids and opposed by Byzantine nobles following the Greek rite, that could lead to a partnership between Kirill and the Latin rite. Thus Kirill not only is the last hope for a Christian Rus’, but the Catholic Church’s last chance to win the Investiture Controvery.

Maybe the Perm crusade involves Sbyslava dying in a failed campaign against the nearby pagans, leaving a weakened Kirill to take the throne and later strike at the Reich in a last ditch gamble by the Catholics.

but Matilda of Tuscany (as a side note, I can actually make her an imperial ally by having the pope be more supportive of her anti-imperial husband than in OTL, though she’d start off as a neutral arbiter between the two sides like OTL before joining Heinrich and Friedrich near the end)

I'm assuming Matilda still dies without an heir, since Gunhilda inheriting her domains is one viable way I can see her gaining noblity and becoming eparch of Italy, through her having domain over southern Italy, North Africa, and eastern Poland is a bit of a stretch.

marrying a relatively no-name nobleman in Ali who is independent of other noble houses and will be unable to rule through her

That makes me wonder, what's stopping the Hohenzollerns from installing one of their own as caliph instead of forcing four different claimants to the title to bend the knee, other than divide and conquer?

 

[zenphoenix]

I kinda figured the Ragnarokers in UVR territory would be like the mujahideen of Afghanistan, but looking at the USSR's relationship with Islam, I suppose this could also work.

Both sides would be supporting their own Ragnaroker faction against the other, mainly to direct their violence away from their own occupation zone.

I was going off this, but I suppose there's nothing saying Prince Wilhelm's death can't be shifted around given the new Gunhilda lore.

That’s true.

Maybe the Perm crusade is Sbyslava dying in a failed campaign against the nearby pagans, leaving a weakened Kirill to take the throne and later strike at the Reich in a last ditch gamble by the Catholics.

That could work.

I'm assuming Matilda still dies without an heir, since Gunhilda inheriting her domains is one viable way I can see her gaining noblity and becoming eparch of Italy, through her having domain over southern Italy, North Africa, and eastern Poland is a bit of a stretch.

Yeah, I think I’ll give her Matilda’s domains first, later expanded to other regions in Italy and then the regions around Carthage. She’ll also have small estates in Schweinfurt (the town that her dynasty name is from) and the Kujawy region.

That makes me wonder, what's stopping the Hohenzollerns from installing one of their own as caliph instead of forcing four different claimants to the title to bend the knee, other than divide and conquer?

Conversion to Islam.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Conversion to Islam.

Now I'm feeling a little embarrassed. I think I might have asked a stupid question lol.

Still through, I assume a Hohenzollern prince independently converting would be unlikely, and Muslims likely wouldn't accept an imperial prince as caliph after what Saint Wihelmina did.

Also apparently Teotihuacan was repopulated during the Aztec period in OTL, so I assume it's still inhabited here, even if the original civilization still collapsed because it declined before the 769 POD.

 

[zenphoenix]

Now I'm feeling a little embarrassed. I think I might have asked a stupid question lol.

Don’t worry, it’s happened to me plenty of times on this site.

Still through, I assume a Hohenzollern prince independently converting would be unlikely, and Muslims likely wouldn't accept an imperial prince as caliph after what Saint Wihelmina did.

Yeah.

Also apparently Teotihuacan was repopulated during the Aztec period in OTL, so I assume it's still inhabited here, even if the original civilization still collapsed because it declined before the 769 POD.

It would probably still be depopulated and abandoned, since its complete collapse is necessary for the future development of Mesoamerica, but the Mexica would have resettled it for prestige.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I did some research on Byzantium in the 1060s a few weeks ago. Turns out Konstantinos X (the emperor in 1066) only seized power in 1059 after convincing the previous emperor, Isaac I Komnenos (the first Komnenoi emperor), to name him his heir and then usurped the throne from him. He wasn't a good ruler as he undid a lot of Isaac's unpopular but effective political and military reforms. Among the things he did was neglect border fortifications, replace much of the standing army with mercenaries, raise taxes to pay for the army, and disband the important Armenian militia right when Alp Arslan and the Seljuks were invading. He was responsible for the loss of Calabria to Robert Guiscard, Belgrade to the Hungarians, and much of Armenia to the Seljuks. He survived an assassination attempt from the military aristocracy in 1061. Politically, he weakened the bureaucracy and Senate by stacking both full of yes-men. In real life, he died in 1067 as he was already very old and unhealthy at that point. Of his six kids, he had three daughters, and of those three, I happened to pick the only one who became a nun. Wikipedia says Anna Doukaina went to a convent and never married. His son Michael VII became emperor in 1071 and was just as incompetent, causing more economic instability, bureaucratic incompetence, and military revolts. He was overthrown in 1078 by two separate rebellions, one of which (the one that ultimately seized the throne) was backed by the Seljuks.

I wonder how much of Konstantinos' actions would be butterflied away with the new POD? I could see Robert still taking Calabria in order to preserve him as a threat to Fredrich the Great, but maybe he doesn't disband the Armenian militia like OTL and keeps some of Issac's reforms.

I also wonder what changes could be made to West African and Abyssinian history too, like the fall of Awdaghost to the Almoravids, or Aksum's collapse and the Zagwe dynasty's rise and fall? I feel like Abyssinia's history would be pretty much the same as OTL, other than Jewish Abyssinians receiving the patronage of Yekuno Amlak.

 

[GhostRider124]

Probably one of the favored poets in the Seljuk court, despite his religion. I don’t know how Sufi poetry would turn out, as that would require me to figure out the sect as a whole. However, I do think that Islam in general would shift to being more like Sufism as a result of all of the traditional institutions and communities being destroyed and scattered. Part of me wants to make the Islam of the Umayyad exiles become a Jewish-style ethnic religion in line with my older lore for European Islam.

I just looked at the Seljuk Wikipedia page and under their Religion tab it said that they were a part of something called the Sunni Revival. It was an era between 1055 and 1258 in were interest in Sunni law and theology reemerged and when it was codified after Shia being dominant for a wile thanks to states like the Fatimid Caliphate and Buyid dynasty. The previous Shi'a Century lasted between 945 and 1055. Since this between the 769 and 1066 POD's it has got me thinking that this could make the rift between Sunnis and Shias with the Sunnis blaming the Shias for the fall of Islam?

There’d also be certain Ragnaroker factions that the UVR supports within the other occupation zones. I know that I mentioned The Troubles in the context of Kyushu, but it might fit better here in Nordenland. I like the idea of Ragnar Beck being a reformist Ragnaroker who attempts to negotiate peace, reunification, and liberation.

Both sides would be supporting their own Ragnaroker faction against the other, mainly to direct their violence away from their own occupation zone.

I can picture the Ragnaroker Movement being similar to the Afghan mujahideen. In that movement you had Suuni, Shia and Maoist factions as well as some smaller groups that were not associated with either of those three ideologies. So a similar thing could happen here in that you have the Reich supporting more moderate factions like Beck, the UVR supporting the Equalist and I am not sure who would support the right-wing groups. Probably China?

 

[zenphoenix]

I wonder how much of Konstantinos' actions would be butterflied away with the new POD? I could see Robert still taking Calabria in order to preserve him as a threat to Fredrich the Great, but maybe he doesn't disband the Armenian militia like OTL and keeps some of Issac's reforms.

Originally I was just going to look at Konstantinos' reign, but all of the OTL and game events of that decade were so interesting that I ended up plotting out how things around him went.

Alp Arslan, as a Zoroastrian, is unable to expand as rapidly into the western Levant and eastern Anatolia. His priorities lie with eliminating threats from within Persia, pushing back the Ghaznavids in the east, and suppressing Muslim rebellions in Iraq. Armenia and Georgia are not conquered in 1064, so Ani isn't sacked. There is no invasion of Byzantine Anatolia as in OTL that was done on the way to fighting the Fatimids, but Alp Arslan has few ambitions that far west. Instead, Nizam al-Mulk negotiates an alliance with Isaac I against the Fatimids, though in practice this is more of a nonaggression pact so that Alp Arslan doesn't have to worry about a Byzantine invasion while he focuses on the Ghaznavids and Fatimids. I'll probably keep Nizam al-Mulk on the Seljuk side since I can't figure out a way for him to join the Reich other than him saying he feared Alp Arslan's fanaticism (which would be different since he's Zoroastrian now).

As the Abbasids are either deposed or held hostage by the Seljuks, the Zirids don't switch allegiance to them in 1050, which prevents the Fatimids from sending the Banu Hilal and Banu Sulaym against them in retaliation. The Fatimids can now afford to focus their attention east on the Seljuks, so they retain control over Syria and Palestine. The in-game map where they control the Arabian interior would probably be the Fatimids gaining the allegiance of desert tribes in-universe. Northern Syria is constantly fought over with the Byzantines, which I suppose Friedrich, Alexios, and others can use as justification for a crusade in place of supposed Seljuk atrocities. The Mustansirite Hardship famine (1064-1071) is more devastating for Muslim populations (but, miraculously, not the Copts—which would likely result in pogroms against that that could have been justification for the Egyptian crusade), which like in OTL leads to a power struggle and civil war over who can control the caliph al-Mustansir. Eventually, the Worm cultist Hassan takes power as vizier with the help of Nasir al-Dawla Ibn Hamdan (who doesn't seize power for himself). However, the Fatimids are significantly weakened, both militarily and politically, which allows Friedrich the Great to conquer them easily and then provide grain from the Byzantine core and former Robert Guiscard lands in North Africa to help the people. People in Egypt, Syria, and Palestine begin turning away from Islam as a result.

Basil II requests troops from Vladimir of Rus' to help suppress his rebellion of Skleros and Phokas. Vladimir accepts on the condition that the Byzantines treat Rus' as an equal, which Basil does. The Bulgarians and Serbs are conquered, the Croatians submit as vassals, and Crimea is occupied like OTL. Basil absorbs their elites into Byzantine society and accepts Bulgarian taxes in kind. His conquest of Georgia in 1018-1022 is more complete with the death of King George I at the Battle of Shirimni. Georgia-allied Armenia, which is being raided by the Seljuks during their early western expansion (before their pivot south to the Muslims of Iraq and east to the Ghaznavids), submits to Byzantium to get Basil's protection. He doesn't sign an agreement with Venice to use its ships for naval transport, keeping the Byzantine navy strong. Basil also lives for four more years, during which he conquers Sicily. As a result, he outlives his brother and co-emperor Konstantinos and prevents the nobility rolling back his reforms. Without any heirs, he asks that the popular and loyal general Konstantinos Dalassenos marry his niece Zoe (Otto III instead marries Theodora). Basil dies in 1029, and Konstantinos Dalassenos takes the throne as Konstantinos VIII.

Konstantinos disappeared from OTL sources after 1042 (around the age of 72), so I will have him remove the reigns of everybody in between Basil II and Isaac I because I was mistaken, I CAN simplify this mess while preserving the Doukai rise to power. Konstantinos VIII maintains all of Basil's reforms and is somewhat popular among the troops and the common people. As a result, Romanos III Argyros giving power back to the nobility, sabotaging the tax system, effectively turning peasants into serfs, undermining the military, and botching the conquest of Aleppo doesn't happen. Michael IV the Paphlagonian's incompetence and ceding of power to his brothers, resulting in the loss of the Serbs and a Bulgarian rebellion, doesn't happen. Michael V's and Michael VI's short reigns don't happen. Zoe and Theodora don't take power because the former is married to Konstantinos VIII (Dalassenos) and the latter is currently in Germany. Konstantinos IX Monomachos' dismissal of George Maniakes, wastefulness of the treasury, and paranoia don't happen, though the schism of 1054 and the loss of southern Italy to the Normans still happens (Konstantinos VIII focuses more on Syria). Harald Hardrada why does he keep showing up, as chief of the Varangian Guard, participates in many of Konstantinos VIII’s campaigns, one of them in Italy against a newly arrived Robert Guiscard.

Without any children, Konstantinos VIII designates Isaac I Komnenos, another veteran of Basil's army, as his successor. Isaac becomes emperor around 1041-42, around the same time that Harald returns home. Since Isaac doesn't come to power in a rebellion, he doesn't have to reward his followers and grant privileges like handing over authority on Church personnel and financial matters to the Ecumenical Patriarch. His job is also made much easier as he doesn't have to undo 30 years of neglect and mismanagement. On the advice of Michael Psellos, he chooses Konstantinos Doukas as his successor in 1059 after falling ill. Upon his passing, Konstantinos is crowned as Konstantinos X (here Konstantinos IX), but the strength of Basil's institutions, popularity of his reforms, and weakness of the nobility due to being maintained by Konstantinos VIII and Isaac I forces Konstantinos to continue them. He doesn't disband the Armenian theme, bloat the military bureacuracy with court officials, replace the standing army with mercenaries, raise taxes on the common people, lose Belgrade to Hungary, lose Armenia to the Seljuks, and so on. However, he still loses Calabria to Robert Guiscard.

From there, the situation in Constantinople is what we previously discussed, ready for Friedrich and Alexios to take over, while the empire at large is in a much stronger position.

I also wonder what changes could be made to West African and Abyssinian history too, like the fall of Awdaghost to the Almoravids, or Aksum's collapse and the Zagwe dynasty's rise and fall? I feel like Abyssinia's history would be pretty much the same as OTL, other than Jewish Abyssinians receiving the patronage of Yekuno Amlak.

I could have the Almoravids be defeated at Awdaghost, though as I’ve said before their conquest and conversion of Ghana isn’t fully backed up by archaeological evidence. Without the Almoravids, Malian and west African pagans survive much longer, and Islam in the region is more of the syncretic and accommodating kind. It might actually survive the collapse of Islam in the Middle East but dwindle to a minority as pagan institutions strengthen.

Aksum will still fall, because the sources on its decline are unclear or contradictory. I agree that most of Ethiopian history will remain the same, only that the Solomonids make more alliances with local Jewish rulers, which has historical precedent.

I just looked at the Seljuk Wikipedia page and under their Religion tab it said that they were a part of something called the Sunni Revival. It was an era between 1055 and 1258 in were interest in Sunni law and theology reemerged and when it was codified after Shia being dominant for a wile thanks to states like the Fatimid Caliphate and Buyid dynasty. The previous Shi'a Century lasted between 945 and 1055. Since this between the 769 and 1066 POD's it has got me thinking that this could make the rift between Sunnis and Shias with the Sunnis blaming the Shias for the fall of Islam?

I don’t think I can use it like that, but it would probably mean that Shiism is the dominant Islamic sect due to the Fatimids being the last major Muslim power and caliphate in the Middle East.

I can picture the Ragnaroker Movement being similar to the Afghan mujahideen. In that movement you had Suuni, Shia and Maoist factions as well as some smaller groups that were not associated with either of those three ideologies. So a similar thing could happen here in that you have the Reich supporting more moderate factions like Beck, the UVR supporting the Equalist and I am not sure who would support the right-wing groups. Probably China?

Everybody would support whatever factions they wanted, regardless of ideology, as long as they served their goals. The Reich might support left wing Ragnarokers if they target the UVR, the UVR might support fascists if they attack Roman military bases, and so on. China wouldn’t have any reason to intervene here, since they’re focused on the Pacific.

 

[GhostRider124]

Basil dies in 1029, and Konstantinos Dalassenos takes the throne as Konstantinos VIII.

Which Konstantinos Dalassenos are you refuring to. There is one that was the Constantine Dalassenos (duke of Antioch) who was born between 965 to 970. There was also Constantine Dalassenos (thalassokrator) who appeared around 1086 and was "doux of the fleet"?