Stellaris Dev Diary #370 - 4.0 Changes Part 4

[Zergor]

Well...none has really any big issue with the streamlining of the population or migration mechanics...but these "semantics" discussion are important because are part of the "make believe", the "understandability" of the game mechanics and the "perceived political neutrality" of this game!!!

This is not a secondary issue!!

I mean...I have kind of spent the whole weekend trying to wrap my head around how the Heart of Iron 4 Manpower mechanics work, because, for example, the total country population got called "max_manpower" in-game, the "conscription" get called "Recruitable Population", other modifiers get also called "Recruitable Population"... I mean...this kind of "semantics" issues might really turn the game into a mess when one try to understand how things work in it...especially if things aren't so clear and so community members can't reasonably wrap up their head around it to update the Wiki!!!

I really would rather avoid that for Stellaris...is already a quite complex game...using bad terms which are meaningless or confusing in real life term is something that should be avoided like plague!!

The thing is that you will have to accept that game mechanics will mandate to use words that don't match the group they represent exactly because those groups are never made in real life. To make a simple example : If in my game it's important I group apples and oranges together and in an other group I need bananas and strawberry, I may call the first group fruit and the second berry. It's not biologically accurate, not even accurate in common language but those are clear separations. And if the word fruit is used in the game, people will quickly learn that it can be only an apple or an orange and not a banana.

 

[Jashkar]

The thing is that you will have to accept that game mechanics will mandate to use words that don't match the group they represent exactly because those groups are never made in real life. To make a simple example : If in my game it's important I group apples and oranges together and in an other group I need bananas and strawberry, I may call the first group fruit and the second berry. It's not biologically accurate, not even accurate in common language but those are clear separations. And if the word fruit is used in the game, people will quickly learn that it can be only an apple or an orange and not a banana.

"How" they will "quickly learn", Zergor?

In the same way people have to find out themselves in Heart of Iron 4 that "max_manpower" is actually the total population because things got so confusing on how the game mechanics work that none of the non-Paradox employees/community member who'd update the Wiki will know enough of it to clarify for the rest of people?

 

[Zergor]

"How" they will "quickly learn", Zergor?

In the same way people have to find out themselves in Heart of Iron 4 that "max_manpower" is actually the total population because things got so confusing on how the game mechanics work that none of the non-Paradox employees/community member who'd update the Wiki will know enough of it to clarify for the rest of people?

I don't play HoI4 so I can't tell specifically but usually even if a name is used in a counterintuitive way, you end up getting the concept behind after a few games. For your max_manpower for example, you will normally learn what to use it for and how to get it. If it's total pop, you will see fast that getting more people raise it so you know what to do if you need more of it.

 

[DurianKing]

I mean...this kind of "semantics" issues might really turn the game into a mess when one try to understand how things work in it...especially if things aren't so clear and so community members can't reasonably wrap up their head around it to update the Wiki!!!

I guess we’ll find out during the open beta.

In the meantime, I recommend you follow the advice of some others here and go take a walk outside or something. You’ll feel better.

 

[Jashkar]

I don't play HoI4 so I can't tell specifically but usually even if a name is used in a counterintuitive way, you end up getting the concept behind after a few games. For your max_manpower for example, you will normally learn what to use it for and how to get it. If it's total pop, you will see fast that getting more people raise it so you know what to do if you need more of it.

No, Zergor...

I understand that if you don't play that specific Paradox game you might not know, but the situation is like this:

The Wiki still holds information based on how community members used to understand things worked...over time things got more complex and confusing, so the fact that there were confusing terms and then even confusion internally between in-game term and localized terms meant that none seems to really understand how the Manpower stat get calculated from Total Population...

If you try to check you'll find a lot of posts asking about the formula to calculate it and people seem to have hard time finding an explaination...and, while certainly one could eventually try to guess it from trial-and-error (which I think I did), this wouldn't have been truly necessary if the terms weren't confusing and if confusion didn't arose between in-game terms and localized terms (which I strongly suspect it is a side-effect of choosing confusing/misundestandable terms to start with...)...

So the so-called "semantics" issue is a very important point to avoid ending up with chaos and that is why I am so combative over it...I genuinely like this game and, more in general, Paradox games...and I find painful when I seem to perceive a sort of "decadence" in a game I like because of certain bad decisions...

 

[Jashkar]

I guess we’ll find out during the open beta.

In the meantime, I recommend you follow the advice of some others here and go take a walk outside or something. You’ll feel better.

Yeah...you're probably right in suggesting that I am "taking too much at heart" this change for which we are just at the "preview stage"...also because some changes I disagreed with in the past eventually were patched up (and in some cases reverted) in the betas...

 

[Cry_Havok]

While some of the hostility has been unwarranted, I still maintain civilian does not make sense because it has a very specific meaning. One suggestion, which has come up, is: Masses.

The masses are something that folk have differing options on, but is not an inherently judgemental term. It's a good catch-all.

Civilians - makes no sense.
Dependents - I still think it's good but there is a definite vibe that it's something you want to minimize
Unskilled Labour - A loaded term that is also incorrect. Again, feels like something that should be minimized inherently.
Masses/The Masses - "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". This group name poses a question rather than giving an answer: What do you do with The Masses. To the authoritarian they are a problem to be dealt with and kept in line, to the Egalitarian they are the backbone of society to be supported. To the decadent they keep the parties going, and once post-scarsity is achieved the masses can do whatever they want while certain skilled individuals take on the task of running the nation.

 

[Jashkar]

And many of us don't think your suggestions are any better than Eladrin's. The fact that people disagree with you don't mean we are drones, just that we disgree with you.
Personally I am in the group of people that really like civilians, but there seem to be people that both dislike civilians and your propositions like "dependants".
The thing is yes a group that will contain clerks, slaves, unemployed, hedonists and any other group like that is hard to name (again, because it's not a group that is usually made in real life. Here the group is basically jobs that don't require a specific building/district and thus are unlimited). It's also probably hard to name because it was added late, so other names may overlap like workers and it's better to not rename the other groups (because renaming things that don't change will only add confusion).

Well...yes...on the fact that this stratum's name is kind of hard to choose we can absolutely agree, although I don't think unemployed are there...wasn't this strata made up of people who can't count as "unemployed"?

P.S.: Frankly the original Ruler, Specialist and Worker is essentially a direct transposition of Upper, Middle and Lower class, so those were probably much easier to find and yes...being probably defined early made things much easier for the Devs compared to this new stratum!

 

[Lorenerd11]

So the so-called "semantics" issue is a very important point to avoid ending up with chaos and that is why I am so combative over it...I genuinely like this game and, more in general, Paradox games...and I find painful when I seem to perceive a sort of "decadence" in a game I like because of certain bad decisions...

For mechanical purposes, I don't think "Civilians" is unclear at all.

It represents pops that are not currently working a job that contributes to your economy in an obvious and mechanically represented way, but still participates in it, as represented by trade value. Could mean students, assistants, et cetera.

I like "Dependents" mainly as a term for individualistic pops in gestalt empires, because it is a strata that Genesis Architect's organic specimens, Rogue Servitor's bio-trophies, Hive Mind's livestock, or a regular Machine empire's grid amalgamated pops could all be categorized under.

Right now organic specimens from Genesis Architects are weirdly categorized under the Bio-Trophy stratum despite being a slavery type... It feels a little odd.

It would also potentially pave the path for individualistic pops in gestalt empires that aren't subjected to outright slavery, but are allowed to simply reside on the collective's worlds.

 

[Thiend]

For mechanical purposes, I don't think "Civilians" is unclear at all.

It represents pops that are not currently working a job that contributes to your economy in an obvious mechanically represented way, but still participates in it, as represented by trade value. Could mean students, assistants, et cetera.

I like "Dependents" mainly as a term for individualistic pops in gestalt empires, because it is a strata that Genesis Architect's organic specimens, Rogue Servitor's bio-trophies, Hive Mind's livestock, or a regular Machine empire's grid amalgamated pops could all be categorized under.

Right now Organic Specimens are weirdly categorized under the Bio-Trophy stratum despite being a slavery type... It feels a little odd.

It would also potentially pave the path for individualistic pops in gestalt empires that aren't subjected to outright slavery, but are allowed to simply reside on the collective's worlds.

I think mechanically Civilians is imprecise, but not terrible.

I have some objection to it thematically, however. If they're civilian, that implies that everything else is not - but, of course, as an extreme example, in an egalitarian society the trade jobs are probably not governmental.

Basically the only way civilians fully works as a term here is if everything else is not civilian, but at best I could rationalize that as "player economy is the government" (after all, it's what pays for ships and other government activities). Except even there, the new Civilians WILL impact the player economy, so that doesn't quite work either.

It's still not terrible, it's just imprecise. I favor The Masses as a catch-all whose only real implication is "nobody doing something specifically interesting" (IE not relevant to you, the player, which is exactly how it works).

 

[DurianKing]

While some of the hostility has been unwarranted, I still maintain civilian does not make sense because it has a very specific meaning. One suggestion, which has come up, is: Masses.

Personally, I don’t have any objection to Civilian, but Masses here does have a nice early twentieth century ring to it.

I propose we call them Durians. Prodigious. Full of potential. Internally complex. Not to be trifled with. Quite smelly.

A worthy name for such an enigmatic class.

 

[Calvax]

While some of the hostility has been unwarranted, I still maintain civilian does not make sense because it has a very specific meaning. One suggestion, which has come up, is: Masses.

The masses are something that folk have differing options on, but is not an inherently judgemental term. It's a good catch-all.

Civilians - makes no sense.
Dependents - I still think it's good but there is a definite vibe that it's something you want to minimize
Unskilled Labour - A loaded term that is also incorrect. Again, feels like something that should be minimized inherently.
Masses/The Masses - "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". This group name poses a question rather than giving an answer: What do you do with The Masses. To the authoritarian they are a problem to be dealt with and kept in line, to the Egalitarian they are the backbone of society to be supported. To the decadent they keep the parties going, and once post-scarsity is achieved the masses can do whatever they want while certain skilled individuals take on the task of running the nation.

Civilian isn't perfect since the workers/specialists/elites can also be civilians, and it doesn't perfectly represent a private sector either unless you're ok with roleplaying that your state industries provide the only form of entertainment. Though I find it easy enough to handwave things like holotheatres being built through grants to the arts rather than state owned theatres.

Masses suffers from the same problems. I can see why some might like it, though in my experience the term "masses" is often used in a negative sense, i.e. unwashed masses. I think it makes sense that from a mechanics perspective there needs to be a term that doesn't imply you're playing the game wrong if you have pops in this strata.

 

[Shadowlyger]

I think mechanically Civilians is imprecise, but not terrible.

I have some objection to it thematically, however. If they're civilian, that implies that everything else is not - but, of course, as an extreme example, in an egalitarian society the trade jobs are probably not governmental.

All Jobs are governmental, on account of being made by you, the government.

 

[Jashkar]

While some of the hostility has been unwarranted, I still maintain civilian does not make sense because it has a very specific meaning. One suggestion, which has come up, is: Masses.

The masses are something that folk have differing options on, but is not an inherently judgemental term. It's a good catch-all.

Civilians - makes no sense.
Dependents - I still think it's good but there is a definite vibe that it's something you want to minimize
Unskilled Labour - A loaded term that is also incorrect. Again, feels like something that should be minimized inherently.
Masses/The Masses - "Give us your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free". This group name poses a question rather than giving an answer: What do you do with The Masses. To the authoritarian they are a problem to be dealt with and kept in line, to the Egalitarian they are the backbone of society to be supported. To the decadent they keep the parties going, and once post-scarsity is achieved the masses can do whatever they want while certain skilled individuals take on the task of running the nation.

Ok...I will try to rein in my hostility and re-raise a point:

Yes...probably it is true, as I was pointed, that coming up for a name for a new (visible, as pointed out by others) stratum isn't an easy task, but the problem is what "Civilian" means in everyday terms and with the fact that it is pretty obvious (due to the demotion from Worker and the desire to migrate of this stratum) that this stratum is hierarchically at the bottom of the "pyramid"...which suggest that, if pops can avoid ending up in it, they'd rather do so!

I still think that the new name should better represent this hierarchical position and have a term that reminds that fact in actual everyday context...personally I think "Inactive" is probably the most neutral and most closely matching the suggested game mechanics traits of this stratum, because "Elite", "Specialist" and "Workers" all have a job while, apparently, this new stratum doesn't seem to have jobs in it...is like a "basket" in which unemployed Workers "fall" after a time...and even "Dependents" would be reasonably neutral if we consider the context: We are talking about a stratum which is supposed to not have jobs in it (because can't have unemployed) and whose needs still need to be cared for, but from who or what they "depend" is variable (State? Megacorporations? Family? Community? Automation?)...

...but anyway I still feel that more brainstorming should be put on finding a better name...something that truly encapsulate the game mechanic characteristics of this new stratum! (Frankly I could come up only with the ideas I have suggested and, as I have said, I don't assume it is a easy task, given the different cases that are expected to fall into it...)

 

[cryptkeeper]

Basically the only way civilians fully works as a term here is if everything else is not civilian, but at best I could rationalize that as "player economy is the government" (after all, it's what pays for ships and other government activities). Except even there, the new Civilians WILL impact the player economy, so that doesn't quite work either.

But even IRL civilian economies effect the government, through taxation and in general trade brings more money into the government. There is also the fact plenty of private civilian companies help the military and the governments of the world.

 

[Zergor]

I think mechanically Civilians is imprecise, but not terrible.

I have some objection to it thematically, however. If they're civilian, that implies that everything else is not - but, of course, as an extreme example, in an egalitarian society the trade jobs are probably not governmental.

Basically the only way civilians fully works as a term here is if everything else is not civilian, but at best I could rationalize that as "player economy is the government" (after all, it's what pays for ships and other government activities). Except even there, the new Civilians WILL impact the player economy, so that doesn't quite work either.

It's still not terrible, it's just imprecise. I favor The Masses as a catch-all whose only real implication is "nobody doing something specifically interesting" (IE not relevant to you, the player, which is exactly how it works).

I prefer civilian because it has a nice ring to it. The masses has the problem of not having names for individual. Civilians -> A civilian. The masses -> ?. Yes civilian normally would englobe all four strata except military workers and specialists but it's easy to get that it's civilians excluding pops in other strata because it's the strata after you have seen the other 3.

 

[Jashkar]

Civilian isn't perfect since the workers/specialists/elites can also be civilians, and it doesn't perfectly represent a private sector either unless you're ok with roleplaying that your state industries provide the only form of entertainment. Though I find it easy enough to handwave things like holotheatres being built through grants to the arts rather than state owned theatres.

Masses suffers from the same problems. I can see why some might like it, though in my experience the term "masses" is often used in a negative sense, i.e. unwashed masses. I think it makes sense that from a mechanics perspective there needs to be a term that doesn't imply you're playing the game wrong if you have pops in this strata.

Yes. "Masses" tend to be justapoxed with "Elites"...but here we seem to have a hierarchical structure with Elite/Specialist/Workers which easily mirror Upper Class/Middle Class/Lower Class ...but adding a further layer is a lot more difficult because well...yes...in most ancient societies that would be an "Outcast Class"...but the need to fit also the people who get pampered by automation makes things a lot more complicated with the name...because in that context "not working" is not seen as a "negative", but it is the "normal condition"!

 

[Jashkar]

But even IRL civilian economies effect the government, through taxation and in general trade brings more money into the government. There is also the fact plenty of private civilian companies help the military and the governments of the world.

But those aren't "civilian"...in that case the opposition is "Private" vs. "State". "Civilians" are "non-militaries".

Moreover, I don't know...I have never seen the Stellaris system as having to represent an all-controlling State or Mega-Corporation.
You are giving the direction, while the resources you "reap" are a representation of a mix of "taxation" and "Government supplies"...

 

[Thiend]

But even IRL civilian economies effect the government, through taxation and in general trade brings more money into the government. There is also the fact plenty of private civilian companies help the military and the governments of the world.

You're right, but that's part of why it's an issue... for a single example, one of the Branch Office holdings is a "Private Mining Consortium."

We DO control some things that are explicitly civilian, and we DON'T control some things that are explicitly government. It's not really wrong to call these pops civilians, I just think it's MORE right to call them something that doesn't say what they are - something more generic, because they're pops that aren't doing anything specific, but that includes not specifically being (or not being) civilians. The only thing they are specifically is NOT doing some other job.

Actually, perhaps given that a better term would just be to un-truncate Pop, and call them Unused Population. They are the population, and you are not using them. Still not awful to just use Civilians though.

I prefer civilian because it has a nice ring to it. The masses has the problem of not having names for individual. Civilians -> A civilian. The masses -> ?. Yes civilian normally would englobe all four strata except military workers and specialists but it's easy to get that it's civilians excluding pops in other strata because it's the strata after you have seen the other 3.

An individual in this case would never be relevant except when using it for something, and if you were, it would no longer be part of that group because it would have a job.

 

[cryptkeeper]

All Jobs are governmental, on account of being made by you, the government.

These jobs are not created by you the player, it is jobs outside the government or no job at all.

Ok...I will try to rein in my hostility and re-raise a point:

Yes...probably it is true, as I was pointed, that coming up for a name for a new (visible, as pointed out by others) stratum isn't an easy task, but the problem is what "Civilian" means in everyday terms and with the fact that it is pretty obvious (due to the demotion from Worker and the desire to migrate of this stratum) that this stratum is hierarchically at the bottom of the "pyramid"...which suggest that, if pops can avoid ending up in it, they'd rather do so!

I don't think this is true, they can be depending on government type but to me it's a abstraction of non governmental jobs, UBI recipients. I doubt you would put self employed people at the bottom of a strata compared to say janitorial staff at the capital. The pyramid only matters in strictly hierarchical societies like fanatical authoritarian , particularly dystopian ones.