The Hohenzollern Chronicles 5: Reborn Phoenix - The Roman Story in New World Order

[zenphoenix]

I'm not sure if we've discussed before, but now I'm wondering how western ideas of democracy (barring the aristocratic republics of ancient India) and the Chinese examination system ended up in Asia and the Reich respectively, since there was a ton of aristocratic military regimes in the former in places like Goryeo, Japan, and Ryukyu?

The Reich imports Chinese meritocracy during the Enlightenment, appealing to some liberal reformers, who don’t want to maintain the current absolutist system but fear a democracy would tear the Reich apart, and to Christians and nobles who saw democracy as undermining the divine right of kings and a pagan invention by the ancient Greeks and Romans that ultimately led to the latter’s near demise. The Asians adopt democracy out of opposition to the numerous military regimes and colonial governments they were under. The Chinese unification movement was heavy populist and grassroots, predicated on the assumption that it was organized around the people of China as a single group, not the dynasties and colonies they were divided into.

Also, I just learned that there were proto-democratic institutions in the Chola Empire while researching this, so I guess India would have a hybrid system.

I also wonder how the Roman meritocratic system would be able to prevent something like Hong Xiuquan's situation from taking place and escalating into a "Taping rebellion"? Huh, that something like that might actually be a good backstory for Konrad von Habsburg, minus the Taiping cult.

Now that you think of it, I might do that for Konrad.

Probably should have clarified, but what I was getting was if they would still be Muslim with Islam largely supplanted by Christianity and the Kondolon Ni Sané cult, given how much of their lives centered around their religions, such as Mansa Musa's hajj and public works projects, or much of Ibn Battuta's travels and Itinerary?

They’d either be pagan or Christian.

In fairness, he's the first Otto in a thousand years. And I'm pretty sure we have a similar situation with the Jayasimha Saint Wilhelmina knew actually being "Jayasimha II" instead of "Jayasimha I" as old lore assumed.

It seems the Reich’s best emperors are either named Friedrich, Wilhelmina, or Otto.

I guess we could always have Rumi end in Penglai and contribute to its sufi culture. Should be doable since he would be born in Ghaznavid territory and could go east before the Mongols invade.

That works.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

They’d either be pagan or Christian.

I think it's more likely to assume they don't exist like OTL at all considering the butterfly effect. Maybe "Mansa Musa" would be replaced by an original successor of Birama based on the in-game Malian emperors from the CK2 save files, while Battuta's itinerary would be folded into Marco Polo's as I previously suggested.

Anyways do you have ideas for Huangdi Zaiji's reign at this point? I particularly wonder if he'd still continue the patronage of Christian sects like the Church of the East and the Shiba remnants in Shibatan as Empress Catherine did, and how successful he'd be against the Mexica?

I also wonder how the Meskwaki annexation of Liaoning would work out? I imagine the wars with the Mexica would leave the Liao exhausted and vulnerable to meet the same as the OTL Cossack Hetmanate, until the Meskwaki Free State is established after the UPRH's establishment and the fall of the Bulbancha government.

On that note, given the spread of Buddhism to the Tsalagi, I now wonder if the Meskwaki would form their empire along Chinese, Roman, Nordenlander (I wonder if this work as an demonym?), or Mexica lines or attain legitimacy for emperorship their own way given their pan-Eimerican anti-colonialism?

 

[zenphoenix]

I think it's more likely to assume they don't exist like OTL at all considering the butterfly effect. Maybe "Mansa Musa" would be replaced by an original successor of Birama based on the in-game Malian emperors from the CK2 save files, while Battuta's itinerary would be folded into Marco Polo's as I previously suggested.

Definitely, they’d have original names. I like the idea of merging Ibn Battuta’s itinerary into Marco Polo’s.

Anyways do you have ideas for Huangdi Zaiji's reign at this point? I particularly wonder if he'd still continue the patronage of Christian sects like the Church of the East and the Shiba remnants in Shibatan as Empress Catherine did, and how successful he'd be against the Mexica?

Not at the moment.

I also wonder how the Meskwaki annexation of Liaoning would work out? I imagine the wars with the Mexica would leave the Liao exhausted and vulnerable to meet the same as the OTL Cossack Hetmanate, until the Meskwaki Free State is established after the UPRH's establishment and the fall of the Bulbancha government.

I’ll probably retcon the MFS into being an independent Liaoning where the Meskwaki loyalist government fled to.

On that note, given the spread of Buddhism to the Tsalagi, I now wonder if the Meskwaki would form their empire along Chinese, Roman, Nordenlander (I wonder if this work as an demonym?), or Mexica lines or attain legitimacy for emperorship their own way given their pan-Eimerican anti-colonialism?

The Meskwaki would probably adopt the Haudenosaunee model, before centralizing along Nordenland lines.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Officially the Imperial Diet would have been merged into the Senate of Constantinople by Friedrich the Glorious, and the two names were used interchangeably. All members of the Imperial Diet (those with imperial immediacy) were offered senatorial titles. However, due to the large distance between Germany and Constantinople, most of them just sent a representative. A few gave up their lands to eparchs and fully relocated to Constantinople to get the Kaiser’s ear. Saint Wilhelmina, realizing the logistical issue, established Berlin as a neutral site for the Senate to meet closer to the feudal lords of Germany, encouraging the dynatoi to relocate west just as Constantine the Great encouraged senators to relocate from Rome when setting up the Byzantine Senate. But many Byzantine nobles still met in Constantinople until the Maximist Wars, when the two halves of the Diet are fully merged now that transportation and communication across the Reich makes it possible.

The Reichstag and Reichsrat I think went back as far as the German Empire era. Maybe further. I kept the name because it was more imperial-sounding, though Bundestag and Bundesrat wouldn't feel out of place in the modern Reich. The government has no reason to change the name after World War II, because the old regime mostly remained in place.

Looking up the Imperial Diet's history, it seems like the Diet was formalized as a more permeant and regular legislature in the 15th century, so I wonder if that would be moved up to Saint Wilhelmina's reign or be a part of the 1444 Augustinian Code or ? I also wonder if renaming the Reichstag and Reichsrat to Hoftag and Hofrat could work?

I suppose the Reich's supreme court would be called the Hofgericht too if there isn't an equivalent Byzantine institution.

The Meskwaki would probably adopt the Haudenosaunee model, before centralizing along Nordenland lines.

So the Meskwaki emperors would have a ceremonially elected position on top of a hereditary title.

On a side note, I found that Thule might have been used as another name for Scandinavia, but I assume you don't want to use it for Nordenland due to its connection to the Nazi-adjcent Thule society and being a Greek/Latin exonym.

 

[zenphoenix]

Looking up the Imperial Diet's history, it seems like the Diet was formalized as a more permeant and regular legislature in the 15th century, so I wonder if that would be moved up to Saint Wilhelmina's reign or be a part of the 1444 Augustinian Code or ? I also wonder if renaming the Reichstag and Reichsrat to Hoftag and Hofrat could work?

I think I’ll have the Imperial Diet and Byzantine Senate be formalized with the Augustinian Code, but logistical limitations of the time prevent it from operating as a single entity until the Maximist Wars. I don’t know what I’ll do with the two houses yet, but I want to at least keep Reichsrat as the Senate.

I suppose the Reich's supreme court would be called the Hofgericht too if there isn't an equivalent Byzantine institution.

There’s a Byzantine institution that is roughly equivalent to a supreme court, although the name, kritai katholikoi tōn Rhomaiōn (κριταὶ καθολικοὶ τῶν Ῥωμαίων, "universal judges of the Romans"), is more for the judges than the institution itself. It’ll be given the name Katholikos Aulikos Symvoúlio (Καθολικός Αυλικός Συμβούλιο), or “Catholic/Universal Aulic Council/Court.” In German that would be Katholischeshofrat, which means the same thing. In the modern day people call it the Aulic Court for convenience. Justices are called krites katholikes (κρῐτής κᾰθολῐκός), or “universal judge.” The German is a direct translation from there.

So the Meskwaki emperors would have a ceremonially elected position on top of a hereditary title.

An addition to my previous comment that I didn’t think of until now: the Meskwaki take more inspiration from the Kanatan model than Nordenland itself, since I’ll explain “Kanata” (name not subject to change for once) as a monarchy formed from a federation of the Norse colonies of Vinland (Newfoundland/Maritimes/Nova Scotia), Helluland (Nunavut and the rest of the northern coast), Markland (Quebec and Ontario—“Markland City” should probably be renamed). Gnupa I adopted the title tjodkong but publicly rejected einvaldskong because of this. The Meskwaki Empire took inspiration from Kanata to build a monarchy cobbled together from multiple native confederations, effectively a confederation of confederations with one royal family holding them all together. But unlike Kanata, the Meskwaki Empire took a more absolutist approach as its emperors portrayed themselves as being the only ones who could hold the empire together against first the Mexica and then the other outside colonizers, which eventually includes Kanata because it ruled over many indigenous populations.

On a side note, I found that Thule might have been used as another name for Scandinavia, but I assume you don't want to use it for Nordenland due to its connection to the Nazi-adjcent Thule society and being a Greek/Latin exonym.

Agreed, I don’t want to touch it in that context. But I might use the name out of universe to describe the ancestors of the Inuit before the Little Ice Age.

 

[zenphoenix]

So this morning I was thinking a little bit about how the Third Iconoclasm would work. Although I did attempt to put a cover of iconoclasm over it, from a gameplay perspective it was just a combination of the Reformation and Thirty Years' War. "Reformed Iconoclasm" was just a reskinned Protestantism that had iconoclasm. So building on our previous discussion about the Investiture Controversy and the Church and HRE reforms that caused it, I want the Third Iconoclasm to take from those earlier movements and emerge in the context of a Church controlled by secular authorities.

One reason is the continued dispute over the role of the Kaiser and secular authorities in Church affairs. OTL Eastern Orthodoxy in the Byzantine era wasn't as cesaropapist as I initially assumed, as the Church sometimes resisted imperial authority. The incorporation of the Latin rite and the Mending of the Schism wouldn't instantly delete all calls for Church reform. The OTL reforms of Gregory VII and many of his predecessors in the 11th century were done with the intention of securing both independence from secular authorities and papal supremacy. While it's clear that Friedrich the Great subordinated the Latin rite and had it integrated into a somewhat loyal Greek rite, those desires for reform and independence return in force after Malcolm Bethune usurps the throne and claims the imperial title without going through the proper procedures, which include the Church's role in acclaiming a new Kaiser. In the Third Iconoclasm, this is a political struggle within the imperial court to retain the monarchy's control over the Church, specifically with regards to investiture. Having won that right over the course of decades and many brutal wars, imperial investiture is seen as one of the Reich's core political-religious doctrines, and to undo it would be to undo both the Mending of the Schism and the Restoration. So there'd be a minor return of the Investiture Controversy during this time of crisis. This would mostly be at the highest levels of the Church and nobility, but some regional religious leaders might try to capitalize on this, like a Jan Hus-type figure who instead of decrying the temporal powers of the clergy condemns the Kaiser for his control of the Church and monopolizing the relationship between humanity and God (so all of the Hussite criticisms of the Catholic Church are directed at the monarchy instead).

While the idea of papal supremacy itself died when the Papacy was forcibly converted into the Patriarchate of Rome under Saint Wilhelmina, the arguments used to justify it still exist and are repurposed in an Orthodox context. Certain parts of the Bible are still used to claim Saint Peter and thus the popes and patriarchs of Rome were granted special authority by Christ. The logistical issues that keep the Diet and Senate divided also apply to the Roman Orthodox Church. The western patriarchates generally administered themselves while keeping in communion with Constantinople. Since many of the old papal institutions and even personnel were folded into the Patriarchate of Rome, there are undercurrents that seek to establish Rome on equal if not superior footing with Constantinople, particularly in regards to administering to western Christians. I think there'd be a big dispute over whether Berlin and the former regions of the Nordmark fall within Rome's or Constantinople's jurisdiction. In the Third Iconoclasm, this becomes a power struggle between the patriarchs that ultimately leads to a reorganization of patriarchates and their jurisdictions within the Reich. This is mostly a political matter at the highest level, taking advantage of the weakness of the throne because of the other issues affecting the Reich at the time.

Post-Cluny reform movements also played a role. The Cluny reforms were hijacked by Heinrich IV and Friedrich the Great to reshape the Catholic Church into something that could be reintegrated into the Orthodox hierarchy, leaving many of its supporters disappointed. Over time, similar reform movements popped up, especially during the reign of Saint Wilhelmina when she encouraged theological debate to further unify the Church. Some of these had grassroots origins as the Church's reach among the common people grew with the early adoption of the printing press. In the 12th century, there'd be a large movement in the west to start printing the Bible and holding services in vernacular languages, something that wouldn't be initially apparent in the east because most people spoke Greek. The Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, and Hungarians adopted local religious traditions based on the cultural mix of Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, and South Slavs that came to define their region. Cults of local saints and religious fraternities emerged, focusing on laypeople and local communities instead of the patriarchates, which became defined by increasingly opulent churches. These grassroots reform movements clashed with reform movements from within the patriarchates themselves, which aimed to standardize rites, monopolize public ministry, and enforce an orthodoxy. In the Third Iconoclasm, this manifests as a Protestant-style "back to the roots" mentality, where local Christian movements seek to interpret the Bible and worship God directly instead of through the institutions of the patriarchates (like Waldensianism). Some of them would have fundamentalist strains, believing that interpretations of the Bible and theological innovations strayed from the original message of Christ, leading to "Purism." Others draw from older Orthodox religious movements in their return to basics and rejected images among other things (like the Lollards), hence the "Iconoclasm" that gives the larger religious movement its name.

The 13th Century Crisis, the Black Death of the following century, and then the Little Ice Age all put significant pressure on the Church. Western Christians saw Constantinople as slow to respond to the extremely brutal Mexica invasion, while eastern Christians saw Rome as not coming to their aid against the Mongols fast enough. Both sides saw the invaders as scourges sent by God to punish them for their lack of faith and the flaws of both the Church and the Kaiser. While Siegfried I and Sigismund I quickly redeemed the monarchy by visibly defeating both Ocuil Acatl and Genghis Khan, the Church had no such luck. The slaughter of so many Christians and the devastation inflicted on the Roman heartland became a clear sign that God wasn't pleased with how the Church was being run. The Black Death contributes to this sentiment, since it was also seen as a punishment from God. However, the demographic shift it caused gives the common people more socioeconomic power compared to the nobility and clergy, giving their calls for reform more power. Some blamed remnant pagans, heretics, and devil worshippers for summoning the plague in their specific area, leading to witch hunts and pogroms against Muslims (who take the full brunt of anti-Semitic activity). Syphilis epidemics in the 15th century (research on if syphilis in Europe existed before Columbus is still lacking, so I'm going to play it safe here) lead to grassroots movements calling for moral renewal in the face of an obvious plague from God punishing the sin of lust (I could fit in "Savonarola" here). Reduced agricultural and economic output in the 16th century due to the Little Ice Age further causes clashes between commoners, nobles, and clergy that lead to more calls for reform. This mentality of blaming natural disasters and economic downturns on the Church feeds into the Third Iconoclasm but also outlives it. I suppose I could work in the rapid deaths of Kaisers and crown princes in the 1890s and early 1900s, and the bad omens around them, as being one final expression of this dissatisfaction with the Church before equalism leads the Roman people to rally around it until the rise of Jerusalem.

The 12th century renaissance under Saint Wilhelmina's long reign sees many western and eastern scholars migrating between the two halves of the empires and sharing knowledge. Humanism in particular is patronized due to lining up with the ideals of Friedrich the Great. The Donation of Constantine, denounced as a forgery by Friedrich the Great and Friedrich the Glorious as part of their campaign to unify the Church, was definitively proven as a forgery by humanists in the 12th century. Textual criticism patronized by Saint Wilhelmina further eroded the legitimacy of texts used to uphold papal privilege. After the Papacy is firmly integrated into the Orthodox framework (though not fully as said above), humanists directed their textual criticism against the unified Church, citing classical sources and earlier translations of the Bible to question the validity of the Church's doctrines. Some did this out of a desire to ask the hard questions and help the Church reform and further unify, while others saw the unified Church as little better than the old Papacy. The spread of the printing press and paper manufacturing allowed books to become affordable and widespread to the common people in the 12th century, leading to a surge in literacy and a particular demand for religious literature. This feeds into the growth of local saint cults, religious fraternities, and religious movements as mentioned above.

All of these trends, movements, and sentiments gradually and naturally build up from the 12th century on before boiling over in the 17th century after the Anarchy because of all of the chaos Malcolm Bethune unleashed, and Frederica Augusta's poor reaction to it during the ecumenical council causes it to erupt into open civil war, which causes an implosion of Roman power in Europe for the next few decades that allows Nordenland and Lithuania to challenge Roman hegemony and take out Rusia.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

So this morning I was thinking a little bit about how the Third Iconoclasm would work. Although I did attempt to put a cover of iconoclasm over it, from a gameplay perspective it was just a combination of the Reformation and Thirty Years' War. "Reformed Iconoclasm" was just a reskinned Protestantism that had iconoclasm. So building on our previous discussion about the Investiture Controversy and the Church and HRE reforms that caused it, I want the Third Iconoclasm to take from those earlier movements and emerge in the context of a Church controlled by secular authorities.

One reason is the continued dispute over the role of the Kaiser and secular authorities in Church affairs. OTL Eastern Orthodoxy in the Byzantine era wasn't as cesaropapist as I initially assumed, as the Church sometimes resisted imperial authority. The incorporation of the Latin rite and the Mending of the Schism wouldn't instantly delete all calls for Church reform. The OTL reforms of Gregory VII and many of his predecessors in the 11th century were done with the intention of securing both independence from secular authorities and papal supremacy. While it's clear that Friedrich the Great subordinated the Latin rite and had it integrated into a somewhat loyal Greek rite, those desires for reform and independence return in force after Malcolm Bethune usurps the throne and claims the imperial title without going through the proper procedures, which include the Church's role in acclaiming a new Kaiser. In the Third Iconoclasm, this is a political struggle within the imperial court to retain the monarchy's control over the Church, specifically with regards to investiture. Having won that right over the course of decades and many brutal wars, imperial investiture is seen as one of the Reich's core political-religious doctrines, and to undo it would be to undo both the Mending of the Schism and the Restoration. So there'd be a minor return of the Investiture Controversy during this time of crisis. This would mostly be at the highest levels of the Church and nobility, but some regional religious leaders might try to capitalize on this, like a Jan Hus-type figure who instead of decrying the temporal powers of the clergy condemns the Kaiser for his control of the Church and monopolizing the relationship between humanity and God (so all of the Hussite criticisms of the Catholic Church are directed at the monarchy instead).

While the idea of papal supremacy itself died when the Papacy was forcibly converted into the Patriarchate of Rome under Saint Wilhelmina, the arguments used to justify it still exist and are repurposed in an Orthodox context. Certain parts of the Bible are still used to claim Saint Peter and thus the popes and patriarchs of Rome were granted special authority by Christ. The logistical issues that keep the Diet and Senate divided also apply to the Roman Orthodox Church. The western patriarchates generally administered themselves while keeping in communion with Constantinople. Since many of the old papal institutions and even personnel were folded into the Patriarchate of Rome, there are undercurrents that seek to establish Rome on equal if not superior footing with Constantinople, particularly in regards to administering to western Christians. I think there'd be a big dispute over whether Berlin and the former regions of the Nordmark fall within Rome's or Constantinople's jurisdiction. In the Third Iconoclasm, this becomes a power struggle between the patriarchs that ultimately leads to a reorganization of patriarchates and their jurisdictions within the Reich. This is mostly a political matter at the highest level, taking advantage of the weakness of the throne because of the other issues affecting the Reich at the time.

Post-Cluny reform movements also played a role. The Cluny reforms were hijacked by Heinrich IV and Friedrich the Great to reshape the Catholic Church into something that could be reintegrated into the Orthodox hierarchy, leaving many of its supporters disappointed. Over time, similar reform movements popped up, especially during the reign of Saint Wilhelmina when she encouraged theological debate to further unify the Church. Some of these had grassroots origins as the Church's reach among the common people grew with the early adoption of the printing press. In the 12th century, there'd be a large movement in the west to start printing the Bible and holding services in vernacular languages, something that wouldn't be initially apparent in the east because most people spoke Greek. The Croatians, Serbs, Bosnians, and Hungarians adopted local religious traditions based on the cultural mix of Germans, Greeks, Hungarians, and South Slavs that came to define their region. Cults of local saints and religious fraternities emerged, focusing on laypeople and local communities instead of the patriarchates, which became defined by increasingly opulent churches. These grassroots reform movements clashed with reform movements from within the patriarchates themselves, which aimed to standardize rites, monopolize public ministry, and enforce an orthodoxy. In the Third Iconoclasm, this manifests as a Protestant-style "back to the roots" mentality, where local Christian movements seek to interpret the Bible and worship God directly instead of through the institutions of the patriarchates (like Waldensianism). Some of them would have fundamentalist strains, believing that interpretations of the Bible and theological innovations strayed from the original message of Christ, leading to "Purism." Others draw from older Orthodox religious movements in their return to basics and rejected images among other things (like the Lollards), hence the "Iconoclasm" that gives the larger religious movement its name.

The 13th Century Crisis, the Black Death of the following century, and then the Little Ice Age all put significant pressure on the Church. Western Christians saw Constantinople as slow to respond to the extremely brutal Mexica invasion, while eastern Christians saw Rome as not coming to their aid against the Mongols fast enough. Both sides saw the invaders as scourges sent by God to punish them for their lack of faith and the flaws of both the Church and the Kaiser. While Siegfried I and Sigismund I quickly redeemed the monarchy by visibly defeating both Ocuil Acatl and Genghis Khan, the Church had no such luck. The slaughter of so many Christians and the devastation inflicted on the Roman heartland became a clear sign that God wasn't pleased with how the Church was being run. The Black Death contributes to this sentiment, since it was also seen as a punishment from God. However, the demographic shift it caused gives the common people more socioeconomic power compared to the nobility and clergy, giving their calls for reform more power. Some blamed remnant pagans, heretics, and devil worshippers for summoning the plague in their specific area, leading to witch hunts and pogroms against Muslims (who take the full brunt of anti-Semitic activity). Syphilis epidemics in the 15th century (research on if syphilis in Europe existed before Columbus is still lacking, so I'm going to play it safe here) lead to grassroots movements calling for moral renewal in the face of an obvious plague from God punishing the sin of lust (I could fit in "Savonarola" here). Reduced agricultural and economic output in the 16th century due to the Little Ice Age further causes clashes between commoners, nobles, and clergy that lead to more calls for reform. This mentality of blaming natural disasters and economic downturns on the Church feeds into the Third Iconoclasm but also outlives it. I suppose I could work in the rapid deaths of Kaisers and crown princes in the 1890s and early 1900s, and the bad omens around them, as being one final expression of this dissatisfaction with the Church before equalism leads the Roman people to rally around it until the rise of Jerusalem.

The 12th century renaissance under Saint Wilhelmina's long reign sees many western and eastern scholars migrating between the two halves of the empires and sharing knowledge. Humanism in particular is patronized due to lining up with the ideals of Friedrich the Great. The Donation of Constantine, denounced as a forgery by Friedrich the Great and Friedrich the Glorious as part of their campaign to unify the Church, was definitively proven as a forgery by humanists in the 12th century. Textual criticism patronized by Saint Wilhelmina further eroded the legitimacy of texts used to uphold papal privilege. After the Papacy is firmly integrated into the Orthodox framework (though not fully as said above), humanists directed their textual criticism against the unified Church, citing classical sources and earlier translations of the Bible to question the validity of the Church's doctrines. Some did this out of a desire to ask the hard questions and help the Church reform and further unify, while others saw the unified Church as little better than the old Papacy. The spread of the printing press and paper manufacturing allowed books to become affordable and widespread to the common people in the 12th century, leading to a surge in literacy and a particular demand for religious literature. This feeds into the growth of local saint cults, religious fraternities, and religious movements as mentioned above.

All of these trends, movements, and sentiments gradually and naturally build up from the 12th century on before boiling over in the 17th century after the Anarchy because of all of the chaos Malcolm Bethune unleashed, and Frederica Augusta's poor reaction to it during the ecumenical council causes it to erupt into open civil war, which causes an implosion of Roman power in Europe for the next few decades that allows Nordenland and Lithuania to challenge Roman hegemony and take out Rusia.

Building off this, I imagine the Fifty Years war mainly being a struggle between the Patriarch of Rome, the Patriarch of Constantinople, and the monarchy in Germania, with the Uckermark region contested (I think about replacing Martin Luther with either the Patriarch of Rome or a Cardinal loyal to him). I like the idea of the Third Iconoclasm being a power struggle between Patriarchs, mainly the Patriarch of Rome, that want more ecclesiastical independence, the monarchy, and people disillusioned with both the church and the monarchy, sort of a continuation of the Ultramontanism and Gallicanism struggle. I take it the Patriarchate of Rome (assuming this map is roughly accurate) would be defeated and and the western provinces broken up into smaller patriarchates to prevent another rebellion from a powerful patriarch. As for other details from old lore that could be reinterpreted, I assume Neurhomania and Britannia would either defect to Rome or go solo, and there would be a falling out between Constantinople and Berlin during the Fifty Years War.

Regarding the Anarchy, is Sophia still assassinated by Friedrich Augustin von Arbon in the new lore? I could see the Arbons still being a player in the Fifty Years War if that's the case.

Also I was thinking the Commonwealth Wars should be less one sided since I'm pretty sure the Reich and Rusia won every war against Lithuania and Nordenland after Giedre's initial success. My idea is that the wars are more of a stalemate with some Lithuianian-Nordenland victories, with only Julie d'Aubginy and Prince Nikephoros being able to make gains and defeat them.

Agreed, I don’t want to touch it in that context. But I might use the name out of universe to describe the ancestors of the Inuit before the Little Ice Age.

I see. Since we've talked about Ancient Humanity having to deal with their own ice age before becoming space faring, I wonder if you can take inspiration from cultures that historically dealt with cold, inhospitable environments like the Inuit for inspiration? Also I know you're more focused on the 769-1066 PODs at the moment, but I wonder if there's stuff from the Paleolithic era you want to look at, since Ancient Humanity was 150,000 years ago?

Out of curiosity, I wonder what TTL's equivalent to Balkanization and Ghettoization would be, since the terms originates from OTL stuff like the Balkan Wars and the Venetian Ghetto?

 

[CaptainAlvious]

The Persian Revolution wasn’t an isolated incident. It had major consequences too. The leader of the Revolution, a former Persian artilleryman named Iskandar Yinal, wanted to topple the Seljuks from their throne and install a republic, or at least a constitutional monarchy headed by a descendant of the “quintessentially Persian” Sassanid royal family (who ironically happened to be Chinese, as the crown prince of the Sassanids fled there after the Muslims conquered Persia centuries ago). His ideas had liberal and nationalist elements. He promoted full voting rights, full gender equality (something which Sigismund was struggling to get into the Augustinian Code at that point), the abolition of all privileges and noble titles, and vast economic reform to help the peasants. He also wanted to get rid of the Seljuks, as he viewed them as just Turks who spoke Persian despite having lived in Persia for centuries and having married into Persian families for most of that time. That was how he managed to rally thousands of peasants to his revolutionary banner. His armies engaged the Indian troops in bloody street-to-street battles all across the alleys and streets of war-torn Isfahan, inflicting heavy casualties on the unprepared Indian soldiers before Iskandar was gunned down on the steps of the imperial palace and his supporters fled.

Also I wonder how you'd rework and expand on this since, while it overlaps nicely with the nationalism of Reza Khan and modern Persia, somewhat contradicts the Sassanid-Seljuks in the Mongol era and Muslims joining the Revolution?

On a side note, I know Sigismund II's vision here was meant to foreshadow the Konigsberg, Warsaw, and Dresden bombings, but it's funny how this kind of works for Jerusalem and Han too.

Anyways, moving onto the narrative side, I wonder how stuff like Sigismund's lists, the Fifty Years Wars' story arc, the involvement of demons in the Maximist Wars and Ludendorf's brainwashing in the would work in DE? I think you said before you wanted to have Ludendorf not needing brainwashing to fight for the Maximists before. I would also like to resurrect your old idea for Prince Martin, possibly as a parallel for Prince Nikephoros, hence the way I wrote him in the TTL-191 summary.

 

[zenphoenix]

Building off this, I imagine the Fifty Years war mainly being a struggle between the Patriarch of Rome, the Patriarch of Constantinople, and the monarchy in Germania, with the Uckermark region contested (I think about replacing Martin Luther with either the Patriarch of Rome or a Cardinal loyal to him).

I think the major factions would be:

The Patriach of Rome, who technically is still the Pope and now draws on that legacy. He’s aligned with the reformist factions interpreting scripture that claims Rome and the successors of Saint Peter should lead the Church, either through a restored Papacy or replacing the Ecumenical Patriarch as first among equals.

The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople trying to fully standardize all rites and practices across all churches. He seeks to maintain the status quo within the Church but also extract more autonomy from the Kaiser in the wake of the Anarchy. Reformist factions drawing on the Cluniac Reforms legacy align with him. These range from those wanting less meddling from the Kaiser in Church affairs to those wanting an end to imperial investiture. There’s also those here out of opposition to the Patriarch of Rome.

The Kaiser, who will not compromise on anything regarding investiture but also realizes that the power struggle between Rome and Constantinople could lead to another Great Schism of 1054.

Various local preachers and other religious figures like “Martin Luther” (rename and Apocalypse arc retcon pending), Jan Hus, John Wycliffe, Peter Waldo (of the Waldensians), and so on. They all have their own agendas and motivations—religious or political, eastern or western, reformist or loyalist, regional or national, pro- or anti-monarchy, etc.

The Nordmark region (that includes Uckermark) is one of the most heavily contested regions due to all four factions having ties there or wanting influence over the capital and monarchy.

I like the idea of the Third Iconoclasm being a power struggle between Patriarchs, mainly the Patriarch of Rome, that want more ecclesiastical independence, the monarchy, and people disillusioned with both the church and the monarchy, sort of a continuation of the Ultramontanism and Gallicanism struggle.

Then the Fifty Years’ War would be open hostilities between Rome, Constantinople, and the monarchy, with the regional movements causing chaos in between.

take it the Patriarchate of Rome (assuming this map is roughly accurate) would be defeated and and the western provinces broken up into smaller patriarchates to prevent another rebellion from a powerful patriarch.

Saint Wilhelmina would have redefined where each patriarch’s jurisdiction went.

Rome continues having jurisdiction over continental Western Europe, but only as east as Germany. Poland, Bohemia, and Croatia are transferred to Constantinople but still retain a lot of Rome’s institutions and doctrines, leading to overlaps between the two patriarchates. These regions would be heavily contested in the 17th century. After the Fifty Years’ War, both Rome and Constantinople are broken up into smaller autocephalous jurisdictions depending on each region, though Constantinople still retains first among equals status.

The Patriarch of Constantinople has his jurisdiction reduced to Greece and western Anatolia, with the Patriarchate of Armenia gaining eastern Anatolia, metropolitans gaining autocephaly in Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Wallachia, Moldavia, and Taurica, and the English of central Anatolia getting their own archbishop.

In the 12th century, the British Isles are initially split off into the autocephalous jurisdiction of the Archbishop of Canterbury, due to the differences between Insular/Anglo-Saxon/Scottish Christianity and the Roman rite on the mainland. Rome claims Britain by historical precedent, but the English nobility strongly supporting imperial investiture during Friedrich the Great’s campaigns leads them to align with the monarchy. Nevertheless, there are growing disagreements between Canterbury and the clergy of Ireland, Scotland, and northern England, who are holding off their own local reform movements and have long been annoyed at having to answer to Canterbury. At the conclusion of the war, the Reich breaks up Britain into multiple autocephalous jurisdictions, answering to the archbishops of Canterbury (southern England), York (northern England), St. Andrews (Scotland), Bangor (Wales), and Armagh (Ireland).

North Africa is heavily contested between Rome and the Patriarch of Alexandria. The former was introduced to North Africa by Robert Guiscard, primarily in the regions of Carthage and Cyrenaica. The latter claims historical jurisdiction over all of Africa. However, that is the full extent of Alexandria’s involvement in the Third Iconoclasm, and that patriarchate generally remains neutral in European affairs.

Jerusalem also stays neutral, as that patriarch’s jurisdiction is just the Holy Land. It is not touched at all after the end of the crisis.

Antioch gained not only Arabia and Mesopotamia but also Bosphorus Nova and other Roman colonies in the East Indies. There are minor disputes with Alexandria over East Africa, but nothing too serious. There are few disputes with Constantinople, which is more focused on Rome and the monarchy. Like Jerusalem, Antioch remained largely neutral and survived the crisis generally intact.

Neurhomania was initially under Constantinople’s jurisdiction, but the province was almost entirely overrun by local religious movements, so after the crisis the metropolitan of New Berlin is granted autocephaly to appease those reformers.

As for other details from old lore that could be reinterpreted, I assume Neurhomania and Britannia would either defect to Rome or go solo, and there would be a falling out between Constantinople and Berlin during the Fifty Years War.

See above.

Regarding the Anarchy, is Sophia still assassinated by Friedrich Augustin von Arbon in the new lore? I could see the Arbons still being a player in the Fifty Years War if that's the case.

I’ll try to bring them back as major players, at least in the early stages. Perhaps Friedrich Augustin von Arbon was backed by the Patriarch of Rome to eliminate the pro-Constantinople Sophia, leading subsequent Kaisers to see both as the problem.

Also I was thinking the Commonwealth Wars should be less one sided since I'm pretty sure the Reich and Rusia won every war against Lithuania and Nordenland after Giedre's initial success. My idea is that the wars are more of a stalemate with some Lithuianian-Nordenland victories, with only Julie d'Aubginy and Prince Nikephoros being able to make gains and defeat them.

I definitely won every war I got dragged into, which is why I held back every time. You make a good point about making them stalemates instead, which would be one reason why the Reich doesn’t bother trying to conquer and convert them and the pagans don’t see a reason to convert on their own. Nordenland can use the marshes of central Denmark as a chokepoint against the Reich, while Lithuania has its forests and could construct a wall of them similar to what the Song did against the Liao.

I see. Since we've talked about Ancient Humanity having to deal with their own ice age before becoming space faring, I wonder if you can take inspiration from cultures that historically dealt with cold, inhospitable environments like the Inuit for inspiration?

Yeah, about that…I recently tried researching that era and came to the conclusion that it would be extremely difficult for even agriculture to develop in such inhospitable climate. 150,000 years ago was during the Penultimate Glacial Maximum, when that ice age was at its absolute worst. Even all of the handwavey stuff I’ve thought up to allow for easy industrialization won’t matter if there’s no agriculture or sedentary societies. I think I’ll move it to 100,000 years ago, since that would be near the end of an interglacial period which would apply pressure on an emerging civilization.

Also I know you're more focused on the 769-1066 PODs at the moment, but I wonder if there's stuff from the Paleolithic era you want to look at, since Ancient Humanity was 150,000 years ago?

I’m already looking into stuff, but most of my research comes from fiction with super advanced ancient human civilizations instead of the historical record. Don’t feel like sharing my findings yet.

Out of curiosity, I wonder what TTL's equivalent to Balkanization and Ghettoization would be, since the terms originates from OTL stuff like the Balkan Wars and the Venetian Ghetto?

Meskwakiization/Eimericanization for the first one. Since the etymology of the word ghetto is still heavily debated, I’m not going to figure out what that would be here.

Also I wonder how you'd rework and expand on this since, while it overlaps nicely with the nationalism of Reza Khan and modern Persia, somewhat contradicts the Sassanid-Seljuks in the Mongol era and Muslims joining the Revolution?

Probably going to ditch that passage but keep the “pure Persian identity” idea, with the Turkic-origin Seljuks and Arab-origin Muslims being considered foreign to Persia regardless of how long they’ve been there and who they’ve intermarried with.

On a side note, I know Sigismund II's vision here was meant to foreshadow the Konigsberg, Warsaw, and Dresden bombings, but it's funny how this kind of works for Jerusalem and Han too.

I actually just wanted to tease World War II in general, as when I finished EU4 all I knew was I was going to have at least one nuke be dropped. When I didn’t nuke Berlin, I thought I had just scrapped that foreshadowing. And then Han ends up doing it, but even that wasn’t part of my original plan or even the second plan. Funny how it all comes full circle.

Anyways, moving onto the narrative side, I wonder how stuff like Sigismund's lists, the Fifty Years Wars' story arc, the involvement of demons in the Maximist Wars and Ludendorf's brainwashing in the would work in DE?

I don’t know what I’ll do with the list. Maybe I’ll have Sigismund burn it, vowing that the people will face the future as it happens. The Apocalypse arc and the 19th century demon arc will be significantly reworked now that I have a better idea of Abrahamic theology and stuff like Marian apparitions, which I want to cover in more detail as Saint Gunhilda/Wilhelmina apparitions. Speaking of that, I’d like to do one for the Our Lady of Fatima apparitions in 1917, since those were said to prophesize future events and I recently learned about them while going through the Anonymous;Code visual novel (same universe as Steins;Gate).

Ludendorff might still be brainwashed, but he’ll have joined the Maximists on his own by then.

I think you said before you wanted to have Ludendorf not needing brainwashing to fight for the Maximists before. I would also like to resurrect your old idea for Prince Martin, possibly as a parallel for Prince Nikephoros, hence the way I wrote him in the TTL-191 summary.

Sure, I’ll think about that.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

and the English of central Anatolia getting their own archbishop.

Now that you remind me that there are Anglo-Saxons in Anatolia as well as Taurica, I was thinking of giving Nikephoros Anglo-Saxon heritage via his peasant grandmother, which can contribute to the Siegfreidsit-Maximist conflict and the latter side turning nationalistic.

Makes me wonder if you would consider making an addendum to the brief Nikephoros bio you made in EU4? I’ve considered making one myself recently, but I don’t want to step on your toes.

Meskwakiization/Eimericanization for the first one. Since the etymology of the word ghetto is still heavily debated, I’m not going to figure out what that would be here.

Fair enough. I was going to ask about the etymologies of the terms antisemitism and islamophobia in light of recent talks of religion and cultural based racism, but I decided to drop it.

I don’t know what I’ll do with the list. Maybe I’ll have Sigismund burn it, vowing that the people will face the future as it happens.

Maybe we could move up the burning of the list to Otto, as I like the idea of "Franz Joseph"'s obsession with the future being what caused all his personal tragedies.

I think the major factions would be:

The Patriach of Rome, who technically is still the Pope and now draws on that legacy. He’s aligned with the reformist factions interpreting scripture that claims Rome and the successors of Saint Peter should lead the Church, either through a restored Papacy or replacing the Ecumenical Patriarch as first among equals.

The Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople trying to fully standardize all rites and practices across all churches. He seeks to maintain the status quo within the Church but also extract more autonomy from the Kaiser in the wake of the Anarchy. Reformist factions drawing on the Cluniac Reforms legacy align with him. These range from those wanting less meddling from the Kaiser in Church affairs to those wanting an end to imperial investiture. There’s also those here out of opposition to the Patriarch of Rome.

The Kaiser, who will not compromise on anything regarding investiture but also realizes that the power struggle between Rome and Constantinople could lead to another Great Schism of 1054.

Various local preachers and other religious figures like “Martin Luther” (rename and Apocalypse arc retcon pending), Jan Hus, John Wycliffe, Peter Waldo (of the Waldensians), and so on. They all have their own agendas and motivations—religious or political, eastern or western, reformist or loyalist, regional or national, pro- or anti-monarchy, etc.

The Nordmark region (that includes Uckermark) is one of the most heavily contested regions due to all four factions having ties there or wanting influence over the capital and monarchy.

Then the Fifty Years’ War would be open hostilities between Rome, Constantinople, and the monarchy, with the regional movements causing chaos in between.

I could see Nordenland, Lithuania, and Persia being involved in the Fifty Years War to some extent too, sort like the Spanish involvement in the Fronde.

I definitely won every war I got dragged into, which is why I held back every time. You make a good point about making them stalemates instead, which would be one reason why the Reich doesn’t bother trying to conquer and convert them and the pagans don’t see a reason to convert on their own. Nordenland can use the marshes of central Denmark as a chokepoint against the Reich, while Lithuania has its forests and could construct a wall of them similar to what the Song did against the Liao.

So Lithuania's equivalent of the Germanos Line. Would this be basically proto trench warfare mixed with a non-continuous hundred years war?

I’m already looking into stuff, but most of my research comes from fiction with super advanced ancient human civilizations instead of the historical record. Don’t feel like sharing my findings yet.

and I recently learned about them while going through the Anonymous;Code visual novel (same universe as Steins;Gate).

On that note, any stuff you've seen, read, or played recently that might influence your writing later?

Anyways, I don't mean to sound impatient as I'm enjoying these discussions, but when will we be expecting a new update?

 

[zenphoenix]

Now that you remind me that there are Anglo-Saxons in Anatolia as well as Taurica, I was thinking of giving Nikephoros Anglo-Saxon heritage via his peasant grandmother, which can contribute to the Siegfreidsit-Maximist conflict and the latter side turning nationalistic, while the Siegfriedists are more popular with minorities due to Nikephorous.

It would add a class element to the war as the Maximists are heavily connected to German nobility while Siegfriedists have the backing of many minorities.

Makes me wonder if you would consider making an addendum to the brief Nikephoros bio you made in EU4? I’ve considered making one myself recently, but I don’t want to step on your toes.

I think I’ll handle it when I get there in DE.

Maybe we could move up the burning of the list to Otto, as I like the idea of "Franz Joseph"'s obsession with the future being what caused all his personal tragedies.

Maybe I could turn it into a Worm-given vision of the future forced upon Sigismund II and Franz Joseph, which they try to act on like Diana did with her vision only to find that their intervention caused that history to happen, kind of like a Greek tragedy.

I could see Nordenland, Lithuania, and Persia being involved in the Fifty Years War to some extent too, sort like the Spanish involvement in the Fronde. Maybe to the point that Poland becomes a defacto Lithuanian vassal until the "Commonwealth Wars" break out.

Also like the Thirty Years’ War and the Reformation as a whole, which in OTL steadily escalated from religious infighting to all-out war within the HRE that lasted for decades. Since the Reich’s major factions are tearing each other apart, its neighbors would try to take advantage of it.

So Lithuania's equivalent of the Germanos Line. Would this be basically proto trench warfare mixed with a non-continuous hundred years war?

More like hit and run guerrilla war tactics using the forests as cover, weakening the Roman armies until they can be finished off in the open by heavy cavalry.

On that note, any stuff you've seen, read, or played recently that might influence your writing later?

For games I’ve mostly been playing Anonymous;Code and other Science Adventure visual novels since my vacation, and the Our Lady of Fatima thing was the biggest thing I thought I could use for my writing. Played the Zero Escape trilogy too, but there’s not much there aside from learning the historical uses of the word “myrmidon.” In pre-industrial times it was used to describe fanatically loyal soldiers, so I could either use it to describe a military unit, terrorist organization, or even robots.

For anime and western TV, most of the stuff I watched was for my own entertainment. However, I think I forgot to mention that I watched the movie Genocidal Organ over my vacation, and there was a lot of next generation military tech I would like to use in future chapters. Though I guess yesterday’s announcement of a new ATLA show might get me to slightly edit my Korra posts if I feel like it.

Anyways, I don't mean to sound impatient as I'm enjoying these discussions, but when will we be expecting a new update?

Unfortunately, more real life stuff popped up after I finished the TESB posts, so I’ll have to focus on that for at least the next week.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

It would add a class element to the war as the Maximists are heavily connected to German nobility while Siegfriedists have the backing of many minorities.

Definitely tracks with most of England siding with the Siegfriedist, checking the gameplay chapters, and the noblity's reaction to the "Pragmatic Sanction". Aside from the major Siegfriedist and Maximist factions and foregin intervention (Persian volunteers helping the Siegfriedists capture Rome, Rusia acting as a neutral abiter, and Lithuania and Nordeland annexing territory), what ideas do you have for the rouge Jagdruffs, Maximillian Goering, and the Polish separatists? Maybe the Poles would be like the Congress Poland rebels and the Carlist Basques and Catalonians, while the Jagdruffs would be more of a big tent faction that splinter against Konrad's faction in Berlin.

Looking at how the Maximists used the Inquisition in this chapter and their WW2 involvement, I also wonder how the patriarchates of Rome and Constantinople and the monarchy would use it? Given Frederica Augusta's paranoia, I could see the monarchy's inquisition being the most brutal. I also wonder about the origins of the Inquisition and its move away from suppressing heresy and political involvement to dealing with the supernatural would work out in DE?

On a pedantic side note, I wonder how the Fifty Years War got its name, as 1626-1652/56 gives us about thirty years, and pushing the date back to 1595 pushes us over. Same thing if we consider 1681 and 1746 the end of hostilities since 1652 is connected to the Apocalypse arc and thus isn't a concrete political end point. I'm guessing the war got its name out of universe because of this chapter. Then again, the vagueness of the actual duration of the Fifty Years War is more of a old lore thing since it was mostly an asymmetric insurgency, and now we have concrete political factions with Rome, Constantinople, and Berlin.

I think I’ll handle it when I get there in DE.

Fair enough. I don't have many other ideas other than starting it with a speech adapted from the Napoleon Total War trailer, in the style of your gameplay chapter quotes.

Speaking of which, I don't know if you've played any Total War games, but I wonder how the historical campaigns after the POD would work with how overpowered the Reich would be? I guess the Empire Total War campaign could go the route of the first Rome and break up the Reich into several closely related factions, so the Fifty Years War factions. Medieval would take a page out of your CK2's timeline, "Nikephorus: Total War" would focus more on Asia, and Shogun would focus on the power struggle between the Yuan, Shiba, Ashikaga, Later Jin, and Goryeo, with DLCs based on other time periods like the Mongol invasions.

Maybe I could turn it into a Worm-given vision of the future forced upon Sigismund II and Franz Joseph, which they try to act on like Diana did with her vision only to find that their intervention caused that history to happen, kind of like a Greek tragedy.

Could work for Gabriel too, given his Jerusalem foreshadowing and him and Uriel killing Franz Ferdinand.

On that note, maybe we could push up the Reich taking back Polish and Caledonian territory to WW1 for.

For games I’ve mostly been playing Anonymous;Code and other Science Adventure visual novels since my vacation, and the Our Lady of Fatima thing was the biggest thing I thought I could use for my writing. Played the Zero Escape trilogy too, but there’s not much there aside from learning the historical uses of the word “myrmidon.” In pre-industrial times it was used to describe fanatically loyal soldiers, so I could either use it to describe a military unit, terrorist organization, or even robots.

For anime and western TV, most of the stuff I watched was for my own entertainment. However, I think I forgot to mention that I watched the movie Genocidal Organ over my vacation, and there was a lot of next generation military tech I would like to use in future chapters. Though I guess yesterday’s announcement of a new ATLA show might get me to slightly edit my Korra posts if I feel like it.

The Our Lady of Fatima and Marian apparitions as you describe them sound pretty close to what you did with the White Stag before. I guess the White Stag could be associated closely with Saint Wilhelmina, Gunhilda, and maybe Kirill going off this PM conversation.

Speaking of the purges, I was surprised to see the White Stag/Hart show up in HOTD season 1 when it was airing awhile ago, so I did a bit of research into its historical symbolism and came across stuff that could overlap with your depiction. In Celtic mythology the White Stag are representatives of the otherworld and show up when a transgression is being committed, so I wonder if it showing up during Saint Wilhelmina's reign would have to do with the excess and height of her purges, then when she spares it that could symbolize a turning point where her she listens to Gunhilda more and starts backpeddling on the purges?

I guess I could work that into a character development moment for Wilhelmina. Although I don't want to confirm anything about the White Stag's true nature (I actually don't know since I want to keep it vague like with the Hohenzollern force ghosts), I like that I could use it to develop Wilhelmina. Perhaps it appears like one of Gunhilda's miracles and builds up her legend as a saint, since it got Wilhelmina to reconsider her purging and become more pious over the rest of her life, paving the way for her canonization after her death.

As for myrmidons, maybe that could work for Angeloi units? I was briefly considering editing the term into the Draka post, but I decided against it tho I included other lore changes like Fusang stuff Nordenland’s name.

Anyways, I personally haven't read or watch the Three Body Problem series, but I wonder how stuff like Sophons, Droplets, Curvature propulsion, and Hibernation would work in Stellaris?

Unfortunately, more real life stuff popped up after I finished the TESB posts, so I’ll have to focus on that for at least the next week.

I understand. Take your time, no need to rush.

 

[zenphoenix]

Definitely tracks with most of England siding with the Siegfriedist, checking the gameplay chapters, and the noblity's reaction to the "Pragmatic Sanction". Aside from the major Siegfriedist and Maximist factions and foregin intervention (Persian volunteers helping the Siegfriedists capture Rome, Rusia acting as a neutral abiter, and Lithuania and Nordeland annexing territory), what ideas do you have for the rouge Jagdruffs, Maximillian Goering, and the Polish separatists?

Maybe there could be another round of religious conflicts taking advantage of the power struggle between the two claimants. Rome once again tries to restore papal supremacy, Constantinople again tries to take back investiture, all sorts of local religious movements pop up, and nationalists and opportunists cause mayhem. Germany is especially full of nationalist Germans who see themselves as the rightful inheritors of the Roman legacy, all other minorities be damned. It would explain the nationalistic and religious fanaticism of the Maximists. Maybe they aligned with the Patriarchate of Rome, and that election I wrote with the joke of the Ecumenical Patriarch’s private mailbox could be him attempting to sway the Maximist towards Constantinople instead. Sigismund II’s first base of operations is in Vienna since Berlin and Rome are in the Patriarch of Rome’s hands, and Constantinople is controlled by the Ecumenical Patriach. But when the Maximist hijack Rome’s movement and expel that patriarch from power, and Sigismund marches on Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarch quickly concedes and throws his full support behind Sigismund. The war then transitions from yet another Church power struggle to purely a battle between the Hohenzollern princes.

Maximilian Goering could be a Siegfriedist commander turned regional religious leader turned brutal nationalist rebel who slaughters anybody he thinks isn’t sufficiently loyal or Roman.

The Polish separatists could be Polish self-defense militias formed to protect their towns from both sides. Poland stays neutral in the civil war with Lithuanian support, while the trade ports of Bremen/Bremerhaven, Hamburg, Lubeck, and Kiel voluntarily invite Nordenland’s protection to safeguard the trade routes. Scotland does a similar thing.

Speaking of which, in light of these ideas, I might try something with the Patriarch of Rome in the post-Jerusalem era.

Looking at how the Maximists used the Inquisition in this chapter, I also wonder how the patriarchates of Rome and Constantinople and the monarchy would use it? Given Frederica Augusta's paranoia, I could see the monarchy's inquisition being the most brutal. I also wonder about the origins of the Inquisition and its move away from suppressing heresy and political involvement to dealing with the supernatural with work out in DE?

Since I want to go with the previously discussed idea of Michael Psellos being the first Head Inquisitor, and Psellos wrote a treatise on demon summoning, the Inquisition would be involved with the supernatural from the beginning. Given all of the Worm Cult’s actions between 1066 and 1126 (I put rough years, they don’t really matter), you could say fighting supernatural threats has always been the Inquisition’s primary purpose, with suppressing heresy being the official cover story. But in later eras, as the Worm Cult faded back into the shadows and the supernatural threats were generally dealt with, that cover became the Inquisition’s priority. Later Kaisers used it as extra troops or law enforcement, while the patriarchs sought to seize the Inquisition for themselves or at least get the loyalty of the branches in their jurisdictions. Frederica Augusta’s zeal and opposition to both Rome and Constantinople leads to her Inquisitors being the most brutal out of the three Inquisitions that fought in the war.

On a pedantic side note, I wonder how the Fifty Years War got its name, as 1626-1652/56 gives us about thirty years, and pushing the date back to 1595 pushes us over. Same thing if we consider 1681 and 1746 the end of hostilities since 1652 is connected to the Apocalypse arc and thus isn't a concrete political end point. I'm guessing the war got its name out of universe because of this chapter. Then again, the vagueness of the actual duration of the Fifty Years War is more of a old lore thing since it was mostly an asymmetric insurgency, and now we have concrete political factions with Rome, Constantinople, and Berlin.

I considered the Fifty Years’ War to be from 1616 to 1666 back when I coined the name; I don’t remember mentioning it in EU4, even though I was under the impression I did. The years don’t quite line up with the big events (I was going to say “but the Thirty Years’ War wasn’t exactly thirty years either” here, but it turns out it was exactly 30 years, 5 months, and 1 day). I’m looking back at this post and it says 1595 to 1652, but escalation of hostilities were after Frederica Augusta I’s coronation in 1618 and the Ninth Ecumenical Council of 1626. I think I can use my original idea, though. I sent the first missionary to convert Uckermark in 1617, but I could say the monarchy’s order to crack down on local religious movements began in 1616, and the implementation started over the following months into 1617. This provokes both Rome and Constantinople into open hostilities after years of quiet wars between the assassination of Sophia and the coronation of Frederica Augusta. The end is in 1666 when the Inquisition relaxes its stance towards new religious movements, and I could have the Church be brought under the full control of the monarchy again. That way it will still be roughly 50 years.

Fair enough. I don't have many other ideas other than starting it with a speech adapted from the Napoleon Total War trailer, in the style of your gameplay chapter quotes.

Cool.

Speaking of which, I don't know if you've played any Total War games, but I wonder how the historical campaigns after the POD would work with how overpowered the Reich would be? I guess the Empire Total War campaign could go the route of the first Rome and break up the Reich into several closely related factions, so the Fifty Years War factions. Medieval would take a page out of your CK2's timeline, "Nikephorus: Total War" would focus more on Asia, and Shogun would focus on the power struggle between the Yuan, Shiba, Ashikaga, Later Jin, and Goryeo, with DLCs based on other time periods like the Mongol invasions.

I haven’t played Total War, though I think a friend of mine recommended it to me in middle school, when the only strategy game I had played was an Age of Empires mobile port I could never beat.

There’s probably multiple scenarios for the Reich spread out over multiple games: Friedrich the Great’s campaigns, Friedrich the Glorious and Gunhilda’s Iberia campaign, Saint Wilhelmina vs Kirill, Siegfried I vs Ocuil Acatl and Genghis Khan, Martin vs Shah Rukh, Sophia vs Malcolm Bethune, and the Fifty Years’ War. I like your other ideas too.

Could work for Gabriel too, given his Jerusalem foreshadowing and him and Uriel killing Franz Ferdinand.

Yet another case of me accidentally following up on foreshadowing I didn’t even think of at the time. As said before, Jerusalem wasn’t planned until it happened.

On that note, maybe we could push up the Reich taking back Polish and Caledonian territory to WW1 for.

That might work. Not fully sold on it though. In the above scenario, the occupied regions would rejoin the Reich after the war ends.

The Our Lady of Fatima and Marian apparitions as you describe them sound pretty close to what you did with the White Stag before. I guess the White Stag could be associated closely with Saint Wilhelmina and Gunhilda going off this PM conversation.

Good idea.

As for myrmidons, maybe that could work for Angeloi units? I was briefly considering editing the term into the Draka post, but I decided against it.

I was thinking more for either the in-universe word for robots or a specific model of them in future chapter, but that works too.

Anyways, I personally haven't read the Three Body Problem, but I wonder stuff like Sophons, Droplets, Curvature propulsion, and Hibernation would work in Stellaris?

I don’t know. I’ll have to look into that because physics is not my strongest subject.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Maybe there could be another round of religious conflicts taking advantage of the power struggle between the two claimants. Rome once again tries to restore papal supremacy, Constantinople again tries to take back investiture, all sorts of local religious movements pop up, and nationalists and opportunists cause mayhem. Germany is especially full of nationalist Germans who see themselves as the rightful inheritors of the Roman legacy, all other minorities be damned. It would explain the nationalistic and religious fanaticism of the Maximists. Maybe they aligned with the Patriarchate of Rome, and that election I wrote with the joke of the Ecumenical Patriarch’s private mailbox could be him attempting to sway the Maximist towards Constantinople instead. Sigismund II’s first base of operations is in Vienna since Berlin and Rome are in the Patriarch of Rome’s hands, and Constantinople is controlled by the Ecumenical Patriach. But when the Maximist hijack Rome’s movement and expel that patriarch from power, and Sigismund marches on Constantinople, the Ecumenical Patriarch quickly concedes and throws his full support behind Sigismund. The war then transitions from yet another Church power struggle to purely a battle between the Hohenzollern princes.

Maximilian Goering could be a Siegfriedist commander turned regional religious leader turned brutal nationalist rebel who slaughters anybody he thinks isn’t sufficiently loyal or Roman.

The Polish separatists could be Polish self-defense militias formed to protect their towns from both sides. Poland stays neutral in the civil war with Lithuanian support, while the trade ports of Bremen/Bremerhaven, Hamburg, Lubeck, and Kiel voluntarily invite Nordenland’s protection to safeguard the trade routes. Scotland does a similar thing.

The Maximist Wars having a religious angle like the Fifty Years War does work with Canterbury following the Maximists unlike most of England. I take it neither the Maximists nor the Angeloi would be as anti-clerical in DE as they are in current canon. I mainly imagine Jagdrufs being a big tent faction with lots of conflicint intrests and loyalties, such monarchism or republicanism; or loyalty to Konrad, Martin or the Patriarch of Rome. I also take it those Jagdrufs that gave the Siegfriedists a hard time in Egypt would be local Copts and Lithunians fighing for autonomy.

Actually, were did the term Jagdruf come from, because I can't find it anywhere?

Speaking of which, in light of these ideas, I might try something with the Patriarch of Rome in the post-Jerusalem era.

Cool idea, but wouldn't he have died in Constantinople? I guess you could also the say the same about the presence of the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch at Jerusalem's proclamation, given Red Christmas, but presumably those Patriarchs were either warned ahead of time or were replaced after those metropolitans were destroyed.

Since I want to go with the previously discussed idea of Michael Psellos being the first Head Inquisitor, and Psellos wrote a treatise on demon summoning, the Inquisition would be involved with the supernatural from the beginning. Given all of the Worm Cult’s actions between 1066 and 1126 (I put rough years, they don’t really matter), you could say fighting supernatural threats has always been the Inquisition’s primary purpose, with suppressing heresy being the official cover story. But in later eras, as the Worm Cult faded back into the shadows and the supernatural threats were generally dealt with, that cover became the Inquisition’s priority. Later Kaisers used it as extra troops or law enforcement, while the patriarchs sought to seize the Inquisition for themselves or at least get the loyalty of the branches in their jurisdictions. Frederica Augusta’s zeal and opposition to both Rome and Constantinople leads to her Inquisitors being the most brutal out of the three Inquisitions that fought in the war.

I imagine they still took part in Saint Wilhelmina's purges, hence the AC2 scenario. I wonder when the Inquisition would be officially "dissolved" to the public and allowed to pivot fully towards the Supernatural? Would it be in 1746, by Nikephorous' decree in the early 19th century decree like what OTL Napoleon did, or during either the Maximist Wars or WW2 due to some branches basically acting as secret police for the Maximist and Angeloi regimes?

Anyways, I assume the reason why the imperial court moved to Potsdam/Brandenburg an der Havel is because of both Berlin and Constantinople getting sacked during war, and to draw the nobility closer to the monarchy in order to keep tabs on them taking from the reason Versailles was built in OTL. If that's so, when would the court move back to Berlin?

I was thinking more for either the in-universe word for robots or a specific model of them in future chapter, but that works too.

I think using it for robots might be better. I guess an HTE unit would also work.

 

[zenphoenix]

The Maximist Wars having a religious angle like the Fifty Years War does work with Canterbury following the Maximists unlike most of England. I take it neither the Maximists nor the Angeloi would be as anti-clerical in DE as they are in current canon. I mainly imagine Jagdrufs being a big tent faction with lots of conflicint intrests and loyalties, such monarchism or republicanism; or loyalty to Konrad, Martin or the Patriarch of Rome. I also take it those Jagdrufs that gave the Siegfriedists a hard time in Egypt would be local Copts and Lithunians fighing for autonomy.

They’d both be cesaropapist, though they support different Church factions. The Jagdrufs are drawn from all over the country and are barely organized outside of those under direct command of Konrad and other Maximist leaders, so each group has its own interests. Presumably the Copts and Lithuanians would have formed militias opposed to both sides, like with the Poles.

Actually, were did the term Jagdruf come from, because I can't find it anywhere?

I remember Germanizing the word Requeté back when I needed to rename the Carlist rebel units in the game, but I don’t remember how I got from there to Jagdruf.

Cool idea, but wouldn't he have died in Constantinople? I guess you could also the say the same about the presence of the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch at Jerusalem's proclamation, given Red Christmas, but presumably those Patriarchs were either warned ahead of time or were replaced after those metropolitans were destroyed.

Most likely, but I suppose I could have a lower ranking cardinal or bishop claim the mantle. Not like there’d be anybody stopping him at this point.

I imagine they still took part in Saint Wilhelmina's purges, hence the AC2 scenario. I wonder when the Inquisition would be officially "dissolved" to the public and allowed to pivot fully towards the Supernatural? Would it be in 1746, by Nikephorous' decree in the early 19th century decree like what OTL Napoleon did, or during either the Maximist Wars or WW2 due to some branches basically acting as secret police for the Maximist and Angeloi regimes?

The Inquisition was officially withdrawn from heretic suppression after World War II because it had been devastated by that war and many of its members had sided with the Angeloi. Otto thus ordered it to focus back on “Church matters” as was its original mission.

Anyways, I assume the reason why the imperial court moved to Potsdam/Brandenburg an der Havel is because of both Berlin and Constantinople getting sacked during war, and to draw the nobility closer to the monarchy in order to keep tabs on them taking from the reason Versailles was built in OTL. If that's so, when would the court move back to Berlin?

Yep, that’s the whole reason the capital was moved to Berlin.

I think using it for robots might be better. I guess an HTE unit would also work.

I’ll think about it.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

Yep, that’s the whole reason the capital was moved to Berlin.

I think there’s either a misunderstanding or typo here, as that doesn’t answer my question regarding Potsdam. Then again, after checking EU4 again, I can’t find anything that said the court moved to “Potsdam” for a while, so I guess I was mistaken.

Then again, both Potsdam and Brandenburg an der Havel would still be in the devastated Nordmark region, so it would probably make sense to move “Versailles” to one of the Kaisers other personal demesne from CK2, or Hohenzollern Castle in Hechingen tho that might be too far.

 

[zenphoenix]

I think there’s either a misunderstanding or typo here, as that doesn’t answer my question regarding Potsdam. Then again, after checking EU4 again, I can’t find anything that said the court moved to “Potsdam” for a while, so I guess I was mistaken.

Then again, both Potsdam and Brandenburg an der Havel would still be in the devastated Nordmark region, so it would probably make sense to move “Versailles” to one of the Kaisers other personal demesne from CK2, or Hohenzollern Castle in Hechingen tho that might be too far.
View attachment 1257981

I think it would make more sense for the secondary palace to be close to Berlin, as Hechingen is in southern Germany. And the Nordmark’s destruction becomes a good opportunity to rebuild it from the ground up.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I know the whole fiasco of Kaisers being denied the Defrender of the Faith title (or Defensor Ecclesiae rather since Defender of the Faith is a British term) during the reign of women is a gameplay feature that wouldn't work out realistically, especially after Saint Wilhelmina's reforms, but that does help represent the conflict between the Kaiser and the Patriarchs of Rome and Constantinople come to think of it, ignoring Siegfried II claiming the title of course.

Anyways, since the Maximist Wars are more than a hundred years removed from Victoria II's abolition of slavey, maybe the references to slave labor should be changed to something resembling American Civil War era prison camps, Bauer War style internment camps, and Angelos' penal codes. Especially in Mauretania

'While the elections progressed, Konrad received word that not all of the Jagdruffs had demobilized or stood down. In fact, several hundred thousand Maximists were still on the loose, rampaging across Germania and laying waste to whatever they could find. Many of them were even besieging Berlin. Konrad sent orders to the rogue militias demanding that they stand down, but they refused, arguing that Konrad had "betrayed the Maximist cause" and was not liberal enough, particularly on reviving slavery (current legislation passed by the Diet as part of the constitution made the use of slave labor legal but not the actual slave trade).

In other industries, the Maximists conscripted minorities to do forced labor that was basically slavery in all but name. Any attempt to protest these conditions was summarily crushed by the Inquisition.

Speaking of Angelos, do you have any ideas for the 1935 Equalist rebellion? Maybe they could be the start of the resistance movement that joined forces with the loyalists after the Angeloi coup, as well as another reason for the UVR to intervene in the civil war besides the "Trotsky" assassination.

I also wonder how the "March to the Sea" through Gallia and the Lowlands would work out, since pillaging the Reich's most industrial areas probably wouldn't work out too well after the war. I also see the loyalists' carpet bombing during WW2 not being taken well by people as some commenters in the HOI3 thread pointed out (which is evident by the people of Socotra's reaction), even if they make sense strategically and the Maximists, Angeloi (who carpet bombed cities like Breslau and Vienna themselves just as the Nazis did), and UVR (through their nuclear bombings) did worse, leaving room open for fascist and equalist propaganda against the Reich that inflate the damage of both the March to the Mediterranean and loyalist strategic bombing, among other stuff. Kind of like those campaigns' OTL equivalents as explained below. I could see a decade long insurgency in Mali occurring and continuing into WW3 in part because of this.

On the flip side of the distinction between the western and eastern provinces influencing the Fifty Years War, the Maximist Wars, and the World Wars, I also wonder how the Roman national identity would have developed through all this until Jerusalem shatters it, considering how influential the OTL Thirty Years War, the age of revolutions, and the American Civil War were on the emergence of nation-states, nationalism, and political identities (like how we went from "the United States are" to "the United States is")?

 

[zenphoenix]

I know the whole fiasco of Kaisers being denied the Defrender of the Faith title (or Defensor Ecclesiae rather since Defender of the Faith is a British term) during the reign of women is a gameplay feature that wouldn't work out realistically, especially after Saint Wilhelmina's reforms, but that does help represent the conflict between the Kaiser and the Patriarchs of Rome and Constantinople come to think of it, ignoring Siegfried II claiming the title of course.

I'm going to remove most of that plot point and have the Kaiserins during the Reign of Women claim the title of Defensor Ecclesiae in opposition to both Rome and Constantinople's meddling. They'd also use other titles like "Her Apostolic Majesty" and very rarely isapóstolos ("equal-to-apostles") as the latter is associated with Constantine the Great and Saint Wilhelmina (whom Anna Komnena considered the thirteenth and fourteenth apostles).

Anyways, since the Maximist Wars are more than a hundred years removed from Victoria II's abolition of slavey, maybe the references to slave labor should be changed to something resembling American Civil War era prison camps, Bauer War style internment camps, and Angelos' penal codes. Especially in Mauretania

Could be forced labor or the 13th Amendment's preservation of slavery with regards to prisoners.

Speaking of Angelos, do you have any ideas for the 1935 Equalist rebellion? Maybe they could be the start of the resistance movement that joined forces with the loyalists after the Angeloi coup, as well as another reason for the UVR to intervene in the civil war besides the "Trotsky" assassination.

It could also be used as justification for further Angeloi crackdowns, which would eventually drag in the UVR.

I also wonder how the "March to the Sea" through Gallia and the Lowlands would work out, since pillaging the Reich's most industrial areas probably wouldn't work out too well after the war.

I'll have to change it to a more rural and agrarian region, but I have to rework what territories were controlled by which side. Probably will be adjusted to somewhere in France proper.

I also see the loyalists' carpet bombing during WW2 not being taken well by people as some commenters in the HOI3 thread pointed out (which is evident by the people of Socotra's reaction), even if they make sense strategically and the Maximists, Angeloi (who carpet bombed cities like Breslau and Vienna themselves just as the Nazis did), and UVR (through their nuclear bombings) did worse, leaving room open for fascist and equalist propaganda against the Reich that inflate the damage of both the March to the Mediterranean and loyalist strategic bombing, among other stuff. Kind of like those campaigns' OTL equivalents as explained below. I could see a decade long insurgency in Mali occurring and continuing into WW3 in part because of this.

Yep, they'd be propaganda to be used against the loyalists, sort of like the firebombing of Dresden against the Allies.

On the flip side of the distinction between the western and eastern provinces influencing the Fifty Years War, the Maximist Wars, and the World Wars, I also wonder how the Roman national identity would have developed through all this until Jerusalem shatters it, considering how influential the OTL Thirty Years War, the age of revolutions, and the American Civil War were on the emergence of nation-states, nationalism, and political identities (like how we went from "the United States are" to "the United States is")?

The size and diversity of the Reich leads to local identities largely persisting in a "Roman and <region>" mentality, like how Greeks called themselves Rhomaioi from Hellas/Anatolia/wherever. These regional identities were brought together as logistics improved via early modern centralization and then the industrial era, until Jerusalem shattered them.

 

[CaptainAlvious]

I'll have to change it to a more rural and agrarian region, but I have to rework what territories were controlled by which side. Probably will be adjusted to somewhere in France proper.

I'm not fully sold on this for some reason. Checking the chapter I linked again, most of the march took place in Gallia, as opposed to the more urbanized Benelux and Rhineland regions, through there is still fighting there, so I think its fine.

Anyways, I know the Cambodian genocide influenced much of Jerusalem's atrocities, but I wonder if there would be something like that in Siam, or would there be a more "conventional", for lack of a better term, red terror?