What's the best way to bring Legendary or Ordinary Flagships in—or simply ignore 'em?

[yangzilata]

Alright, so we’ve got some of the most iconic warships in history—massive, heavily armed flagships that weren’t just built to fight, but also to show off power.

As you can guess, these weren’t just big ships, they were status symbols, floating fortresses, and—let’s be real—absolute nightmares to maintain. You know what they say: big power comes with big maintenance costs.

Think:

• Mahmudiyye,
• Treasure Ships of Zheng He, (over 120 meters long—led Ming Dynasty fleets across the Indian Ocean, as some of you might recall)
• Santísima Trinidad,
• Atakebune, (used by daimyō)
• HMS Victory,
• Dragon Ships, (Ming era)
• Soleil Royal,
• São João Baptista,
• Flor de la Mar
• USS Pennsylvania,
• La Rédoutable,
• Galeone Grimani,
• San Giovanni Battista,
• Nuestra Señora de la Concepción, (treasure galleon),
• Royal Mamluk Galleys (Jūdī maybe?),
• Göke,
• De Zeven Provinciën,
• Ghurab (Maratha Navy)
• Alamgir
• Askia Muhammad’s War Canoes,
• Bucentaure,
• Omani Dhow
• Orient (Napoleon's Flagship)

And a bunch more.

But..​

We’ve seen how land armies get special regiments like Morocco’s Black Guard or the Jaysh armies which gives estate privilege instead of being separate units. There are also unique naval units, like the Aragonese Catalan Galley mentioned in a recent dev diary.

So, what about flagships? Should they be actual ships you build, or should they work more like special upgrades that boost your navy?

My unassuming approaches are:​

• The first rule: You can only build them once per campaign, though—so whatever you do, don’t sail them through a coral reef!​

1- Unique Ships - Historical and non-Historical (mission awards) both.

• I remember in some missions in Imperator: Rome, -spoiler alert- even though the Romans couldn’t normally build stuff like Mega-Polyremes, Octaremes, or Hexaremes (one of them, I can't recall), there was an event/mission where they could actually build them once for the campaign. But if they sink... well, that's it. Say goodbye to those fancy ships forever. I think something like that could work really well in our game too!
• These would be expensive but powerful, giving major naval bonuses.
• Maybe one per nation at a time, so you don’t spam them.

2- Customizable

• Instead of preset historical ships, we could designate/upgrade (after unlocking advance or age) any big warship as a flagship. I mean, I don't think when Barbarossa invited the Ottoman court and became Grand Admiral - قپودان دریا, he had some special, one-of-a-kind Ottoman galley built as his flagship. I’m pretty sure it was just an ordinary ship from his fleet that got upgraded. But that’s just my personal assumption!
• It would, again, cost more to maintain but provide special modifiers (kind of like CK3’s men-at-arms).
• Different cultures could have different flagship bonuses, like better speed, stronger broadsides/hull, or morale boosts.

3- No Unique Flagships – Just National Naval Doctrines

• Instead of individual and visually repre4sented ships, we could get naval traditions.
• This way, no nation is left behind, and it avoids a situation where only a few countries (or some youtubers) get insane flagships while others get nothing.

Am I Just Sailing in the Wrong Direction?​

That’s another thing—these ships were pretty rare and mostly belonged to a few nations. Would adding them be unfair to countries that didn’t have famous flagships? Or is that not really a problem, since land armies already get unique regiments?

Personally, I love naval warfare way more than land battles, and I’d love to see meaningful/realistic flagship mechanics—not just a single overpowered ship, but something that actually fits into the larger naval system.

What do you guys think? Should flagships be actual ships, national traditions, or something else entirely?

---

Disclaimer:

I feel like I have to type this because I’ve faced accusations (or indictments) about my threads on this forum before. I made this whole thread myself. I did the formatting manually and added colors so I can easily spot the keywords when I come back to it later. This also makes the usual black-white-grey theme a bit livelier and helps me feel more alive.

I’m a naval and maritime enthusiast and I’ve loved ships since childhood. Sometimes, I even think I’d rather live at sea than on land. I searched for 23 ships that I really love. I love their shapes, stories, usage, and even their endings. Their overall stature is gorgeous in my view.

The ideas here come from my past gaming experiences and things I picked up from various tinto talks. You’ll see clickable links in the thread. I manually searched them. The whole thread took me 1.5 hours of my own time.

Since English isn’t my native language—in my native language, the verb comes at the end and the subject at the beginning which is pretty much the opposite of English—I asked ChatGPT to help amend my sentences, adjust the syntax, and tweak the wording. I only used AI to fix the language, not to change the actual content. In other words, I used this assistance to refine my text, not alter the content itself.

Thanks for understanding!

 

[Sirbab]

I don't see the need to treat them any differently. Just have heavy ships, and maybe port over some version of the flagship system from eu4.

 

[SAmaster]

I think the system from EUIV works just fine.

Every nation gets to build a flagship, with options for different kinds of ships (as far as we know now, they are still split between light, heavy, galley, and transport). Some nations got unique bonuses only they could use for a flagship, and you could only have one unless you captured it form an enemy. If you lost it you had to build a new one.

The only tweak I could see to the system is maybe there's a unique category of 'ultra-heavy ship' that's super-expensive.

On the topic of Doctrines, I'd like to see a system that's more fleshed out like in Imperator Rome, or Hearts of Iron, though for EUIV's timeframe I think this should be much more mechanically simple. I'd tie this to tech-groups, and I'd see each one get at least a small naval branch (though naturally say western europe should get more stuff there than say aboriginal tribes- just they should at least get a little something there). Mechanically I don't know the best way to handle it, that's just my aspiration.

 

[prismaticmarcus]

I asked ChatGPT to help amend my sentences, adjust the syntax, and tweak the wording. I only used AI to fix the language, not to change the actual content. In other words, I used this assistance to refine my text, not alter the content itself.

This is all you ever needed to do! Thank you!!!!

 

[Monty is staring at me]

I think we want a system that isn't as arcade-y as EU4, but allows for some immersion.

So, what are flag ships?

They're the boat the commander is on.

So maybe, when we assign an admiral to a fleet, we actually have to assign them to a specific ship, and that becomes the flagship. If that flagship is sunk/captured, then the admiral runs the risk of being captured/killed or being saved by another ship (in which case the flagship changes). The capture or death of the admiral would have huge impact on the battle obviously.

I don't think we are going to get customizable ships, just like we won't get customizable units. We are going to get unique naval units though, that's already confirmed.

 

[yangzilata]

This is all you ever needed to do! Thank you!!!!

Thank you as well for your contributions to the forum, and for your understanding and patience. With all my sincerity, you make this forum a better place.

 

[yangzilata]

I think we want a system that isn't as arcade-y as EU4, but allows for some immersion.

100% agree!

So maybe, when we assign an admiral to a fleet, we actually have to assign them to a specific ship, and that becomes the flagship. If that flagship is sunk/captured, then the admiral runs the risk of being captured/killed or being saved by another ship (in which case the flagship changes). The capture or death of the admiral would have huge impact on the battle obviously.

I really love this idea! It makes admiralship feel much more impactful.

 

[yangzilata]

The only tweak I could see to the system is maybe there's a unique category of 'ultra-heavy ship' that's super-expensive.

Personally, I feel like without a unique category for admiralship or naval warfare, it would feel incomplete

On the topic of Doctrines, I'd like to see a system that's more fleshed out like in Imperator Rome, or Hearts of Iron, though for EUIV's timeframe I think this should be much more mechanically simple. I'd tie this to tech-groups, and I'd see each one get at least a small naval branch (though naturally say western europe should get more stuff there than say aboriginal tribes- just they should at least get a little something there). Mechanically I don't know the best way to handle it, that's just my aspiration.

Doctrines could be a cool new mechanic for both navy and army, but I think it should show up in the later stages of the game.

• For the early game, we could tie the flagship into some naval doctrines. For example, a 'Flagship Leadership' (advance?) doctrine could make the admiral stronger (morale of fleet?), but if the flagship gets sunk or captured, it could have big consequences. Another idea could be a 'Flagship Protection' doctrine, where you focus on keeping the flagship safe with escorts (which sounds very cool to me), and possibly even allowing the option to retreat the flagship if it's in danger. (including weather fronts, storms, and combat, and maybe we could also prevent it from getting stuck in a frozen sea, which would be really useful)

• Later on in the game, the flagship might still give some small boosts to morale, coordination, and tactics. But the focus will shift more toward advanced strategies, since the flagship’s role kinda drops off as the tactics get more complex.

 

[dunka2]

I don't really like flagships, at least as they exist in EU4. It's very much a gameboard mechanic because flagships were only special as they held the command structure of a fleet. Losing one was a problem because you suddenly lost the people who knew how to coordinate a large fleet on the ocean, not a common skill. Sometimes these ships were technically more advanced than other ships (or supposed to be so), but this doesn't seem like something that needs to be included.

Could see something similar to HoI4 where you can designate a single 'Pride of the fleet' out of all your ships which was a common concept. Could give a morale boost to the fleet and hurt your stability if lost. More than that seems inappropriate. There were many examples once permanent navies became common where losing such a ship had real consequences as in the case of the HMS Unity which was very embarrassingly lost to the Dutch at anchor during one of the Anglo-Dutch Wars.

 

[treb]

Don't really think its needed, While it is the age of discovery and the dawn of transoceanic seafaring its still very much a back seat aspect of the game for the most part if you're not a colonizer or island state navies are not exactly high on your priorities, like if im playing the Ottomans, Byzantines Austrians or Timurids as I commonly do, the geography and bonuses I get make spending money on a navy a waste. Why sink a thousand gold and 30 ducats of upkeep on building a navy to fight on par with Spain as the Ottomans when im in walking distance of them with my armies and I have enough manpower and modifiers to otherwise handily decimate them? Its money better spent on more cannons and infantry.

Its another niche thing I might play a campaign or two to mess about with then promptly forget about, and as far as not eu5 goes I don't see the change that would warrant it.

 

[Mindel]

simply ignore 'em

 

[ArVass]

I think some unique ships would be great flavour, although it would also be great if ships (or at least major ships/flag ships) could get individual specific names (as far as I remember, that was a feature in EU4). If that is the case, many of the more important/major flagships (other than the ones that warrant a special ship unit) could appear as ship names instead.

 

[Le Vengur]

It should ideally tie in with whatever the great power mechanics will be. Large capital ships are just as much about prestige as actual combat ability.

Several second rate powers in the timeframe built larger flagships, to challenge the great powers. Sweden and Denmark both built 110s in the late 1600s. Sweden also built the Mars and Vasa previously. Both covered in decorations as instruments of the state.

Scotland built the Great Michael. Lübeck the Adler von Lübeck.

The list of oversized flagships is certainly long enough to justify their inclusion.

How about:

Kingdoms with a port and reasonably large fleet can build one Flagship (or one per 20 normal capital warships). It costs two or three times the usual cost. Building and maintaining it gives prestige, loosing it costs prestige. Just like in EUIV tbh.

Really, they should be more like the Titans of Stellaris. "Mine is bigger than yours".

 

[LordThanatos]

As I mentioned in my reply to your last post on this topic (I mean, it was more specific, but the discussion was exactly the same), I'd rather not see specific historical ships represented as unique units. Unless they're made weak and useless to build, having them represented will give an advantage to nations that built those ships in our timeline, even if other nations might have become the naval powerhouses of this timeline.

If Spain or England get a bonus to their naval abilities because they built these ships in our timeline, and get an edge over equally powerful or even more powerful navies from nations which emerge that way in the game and lack unique vessels of their own - with otherwise equally sized navies - I'd be incredibly disappointed.

As such having unique ships will skew PC toward artificially following history in completely the wrong way. Rather I'd like if both players and AI could build customized larger ships as any nation. I don't want the flagship system to return as it was in EU4, as it was quite boring, but some system where you could customize numbers of decks, guns, and other characteristics and have differing stats from a base ship would be great to represent these unique ships, if they must be represented.

The other idea I mentioned is having some system similar to the legion commendation system from I:R, where ships might gain notoriety and traits which give them a little more personality. You didn't just lose a frigate with a lot of experience, you lost a frigate that is the most decorated in the fleet, and has done all these great things.

To be clear, I'm not necessarily against unique unit types, such as the Catalan Galley or Korean geobukseon, so long as they are balanced. My feelings on them are more mixed, as they could provide a lot more tag flavour than these specific ships would, if they're fairly balanced, but they do have the same problem in that they will give advantages to historically naval nations. The key point here in why I'd be mostly okay with unique unit types and not unique units is the difference in knowing that Aragon will be able to field galleys with two more guns than mine, and knowing that Spain will, after getting the appropriate advancement, field specifically the Santísima Trinidad. To me it's the difference between being able to field Polish hussars versus being able to field specific, highly skilled individual soldiers as 'hero units', which just don't feel like they fit this genre in my eyes.

How the team should balance the edge having unique units provides against the flavour they give specific tags is something worth a lot of discussion.

 

[ArVass]

Here is an idea: a dynamic event or decision to make a dynamic (custom) flagship. Would probably include an event chain, decisions to “customize” the ship’s cost and size a bit (so basically the more you spend on it the more powerful it becomes, in a simplified way, like how you can increase artifact quality in CK3 by taking the more expensive/risky event options), and also allowing you to name the flagship (or of course it suggests historical names from a list if you prefer it that way).

 

[Blust]

Didn't you already made a thread about that ?

A Maritime Colossus: Why the Santísima Trinidad Must Sail Into Our Supersecret Game

In the annals of naval history, few vessels evoke as much awe as the Santísima Trinidad. Launched in 1769, this Spanish 1st-rate ship of the line was nothing short of a floating fortress. Armed with an astonishing 140 guns spread across four...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[honkajoki]

Why sink a thousand gold and 30 ducats of upkeep on building a navy to fight on par with Spain as the Ottomans when im in walking distance of them with my armies

Perhaps you're within walking distance after Ottomans and Spain have both expanded a lot. But I thought marching armies for long distances is harder in PC than in EU4, because of lack of military access and because of heavier attrition? That would make navies more important.

As for the topic of flagships, I don't know if better stats for a single ship mean much if there are hundreds of ships in a battle. And having one special ship give bonuses for all the ships in the fleet feels kinda gamey. The idea of fleet admiral being aboard some ship, thus making it a flagship, however seems interesting.

Then again, they are cool.

 

[korandder]

I would be against flagships being unique units or having special bonuses, given that in the period the game covers a flagship was just the ship an admiral hosted their flag on.

I would be happy with a system where the admiral is assigned to a specific ship giving that ship a small bonus to its moral while it has an admiral assigned to it.

I think a system were if you only have a single three decker, losing that causes a lot more loss of prestige than if you have a couple dozen and you loose one. This could be tied to a system where ships gain prestige from being in battles so that losing a ship that played a major role in dozens of battles has more of an impact than one you just built.

 

[SAmaster]

Personally, I feel like without a unique category for admiralship or naval warfare, it would feel incomplete

Doctrines could be a cool new mechanic for both navy and army, but I think it should show up in the later stages of the game.

• For the early game, we could tie the flagship into some naval doctrines. For example, a 'Flagship Leadership' (advance?) doctrine could make the admiral stronger (morale of fleet?), but if the flagship gets sunk or captured, it could have big consequences. Another idea could be a 'Flagship Protection' doctrine, where you focus on keeping the flagship safe with escorts (which sounds very cool to me), and possibly even allowing the option to retreat the flagship if it's in danger. (including weather fronts, storms, and combat, and maybe we could also prevent it from getting stuck in a frozen sea, which would be really useful)

• Later on in the game, the flagship might still give some small boosts to morale, coordination, and tactics. But the focus will shift more toward advanced strategies, since the flagship’s role kinda drops off as the tactics get more complex.

Late game for history reasons maybe. Mechanically I think that everyone should start with enough free experience they can buy a doctrine- or maybe that the first doctrine is always free. This helps much more both with strategizing, but also giving the AI something to work with as well. Making it so you only get doctrines with enough war experience punishes peaceful playstyles, and isolated nations. Now this makes sense to a certain extent, but mechanically I think it's too punishing. This is a problem in HOI4, but you have a lot of strategies to help overcome this, and there are fewer nations. Even then, you definitely have to rush army experience gain.

Anyway tying flagships to a naval doctrine might work, but I think it should be something you can invest in relatively early. Just cause I don't like sealing off gameplay mechanics. Naturally I see an argument that say Hawaii probably wouldn't have a giant flagship carrack five years into the game, but once you've established it, and you want naval mechanics to engage in, you shouldn't have to spend a century waiting to unlock it.

 

[Le Vengur]

Assuming a Flagship is mainly big and Royal, Hawaii should definitely be able to build some kind of massive double-hulled war canoe flagship. The big Aloha?