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A lot of military doctrines while not mutually exclusive emphasize opposite ideologies, and can't be properly integrated.
they’re not always compatible. So, it makes sense that there should be some logic-based restrictions on how tactics can be integrated, rather than just letting players mix and match whatever they want.
I used Polynesia as a naval example frequently
but I’m wondering... could they even build galleons at all? They don’t have oak trees, and I don’t think palm trees are exactly fit for making massive warships. Maybe they could learn the techniques or even steal them through espionage, but geography is a massive natural barrier here. So yeah, I don’t see a reason why Polynesians couldn’t learn galleon-building, but even if they did, the lack of resources would kinda make it pointless.

Fictional Scenario: That said, if they somehow thrived and colonised places like Ainu or Manchuria, then sure, they could actually build proper galleons there. But only there...
Hence I figure it's best if these theoretically military doctrines are restricted to tech-groups with only minor crossover if any. 'Westernized' tactics if they are to be included I think should be more the result of the far end of the doctrine trees.
I’m fine with that, even though my approach is a bit different.
Also agreed, that's how I was thinking of the 'foreign advisors' concept. A general from an allied/friendly nation is invited to your court, maybe you assign him to an army, and this results in an event-chain that can give you something like 'military experience' to unlock more doctrines (maybe the event has more rewards, but more negative effects if the nation that is advising you has much more of their doctrine tree unlocked).
Having a general from a friendly nation come over, assign him to an army, and trigger an event chain that gives military experience... I liked this approach. Maybe the events could have different rewards, but also some downsides if the advising nation has way more of their doctrine tree unlocked. That’s literally how x-ternisation happened in history. Think about Selim III’s Nizam-ı Cedid army or how the Sikh nation brought in European advisors to modernise their forces and dominate their neighbours. And obviously, the Meiji Restoration did the same thing on an even bigger scale.

So yeah, I think your idea actually fits really well into how things happened historically.
 
they’re not always compatible. So, it makes sense that there should be some logic-based restrictions on how tactics can be integrated, rather than just letting players mix and match whatever they want.

but I’m wondering... could they even build galleons at all? They don’t have oak trees, and I don’t think palm trees are exactly fit for making massive warships. Maybe they could learn the techniques or even steal them through espionage, but geography is a massive natural barrier here. So yeah, I don’t see a reason why Polynesians couldn’t learn galleon-building, but even if they did, the lack of resources would kinda make it pointless.

Fictional Scenario: That said, if they somehow thrived and colonised places like Ainu or Manchuria, then sure, they could actually build proper galleons there. But only there...

I’m fine with that, even though my approach is a bit different.

Having a general from a friendly nation come over, assign him to an army, and trigger an event chain that gives military experience... I liked this approach. Maybe the events could have different rewards, but also some downsides if the advising nation has way more of their doctrine tree unlocked. That’s literally how x-ternisation happened in history. Think about Selim III’s Nizam-ı Cedid army or how the Sikh nation brought in European advisors to modernise their forces and dominate their neighbours. And obviously, the Meiji Restoration did the same thing on an even bigger scale.

So yeah, I think your idea actually fits really well into how things happened historically.
Through alt-history paths the Polynesians certainly could build galleons and import the lumber (through a presumably more robust trade system in asia than OTL). However- as you note their local geography doesn't support it, and like I said I don't think culturally it would be supported (their strengths of having a large seafaring population do not lend themselves to the operation of heavy ships compared to smaller ships).

One of the historical examples I was thinking of was how the Continental Army became professionalized during the winter of Valley Forge under Marquis de Laffayette.
 
Through alt-history paths the Polynesians certainly could build galleons and import the lumber (through a presumably more robust trade system in asia than OTL). However- as you note their local geography doesn't support it, and like I said I don't think culturally it would be supported (their strengths of having a large seafaring population do not lend themselves to the operation of heavy ships compared to smaller ships).
The Polynesians' seafaring population, but how big was it really? I imagine it would be pretty small compared to, say, Portugal.

I bring up Portugal because they didn't have a huge population compared to other colonial powers, but they still had a strong navy, right?

So, for the Polynesians, it’d probably not be enough to colonise anything big. I remember in the first Tinto Talks Iceland gets some special advantage (I might be wrong about this, though—could’ve been an estate privilege or something?) for colonising nearby areas, but their population just wouldn’t be able to support it, which @Johan said. So, I think a similar alt-history situation would apply to Polynesia too.
One of the historical examples I was thinking of was how the Continental Army became professionalized during the winter of Valley Forge under Marquis de Laffayette.
About the Continental Army in Valley Forge—interesting example. I’d like to know what you think about how that transformation happened and how we could adapt that idea for the navy, especially from the 18th century onwards.
 
The Polynesians' seafaring population, but how big was it really? I imagine it would be pretty small compared to, say, Portugal.

I bring up Portugal because they didn't have a huge population compared to other colonial powers, but they still had a strong navy, right?

So, for the Polynesians, it’d probably not be enough to colonise anything big. I remember in the first Tinto Talks Iceland gets some special advantage (I might be wrong about this, though—could’ve been an estate privilege or something?) for colonising nearby areas, but their population just wouldn’t be able to support it, which @Johan said. So, I think a similar alt-history situation would apply to Polynesia too.

About the Continental Army in Valley Forge—interesting example. I’d like to know what you think about how that transformation happened and how we could adapt that idea for the navy, especially from the 18th century onwards.
In terms of raw numbers the polynesians had a low population, but what I mean is a very large percentage of their population would have seafaring skills owing to the geography of the region- similar to how the nomadic populations of Mongolia often grew up in the saddle (it was said they learned how to ride a horse before learning to walk). It's an element of geographic determinism.

Likewise I'd say europe's long coastlines and many peninsula's and seas are what gave them an advantage in sea-faring compared to say the America's or Africa. And that this likewise should be presented with expansive naval paths in a 'western' military doctrine (I'd argue for two paths in fact, both of which could be taken, a mediterranean centric path based on galleys and conflicts with muslim powers, inspired by say the Venetian Navy, while the other is an Atlantic centric path based more on heavy ships and colonialism).

I should caveat with I'm not an expert of American history, but it's a big part of the 'legend' of the Revolution (it of course is a matter of historical record, it's just given a ton of emphasis in the whole national myth).

Prior to Valley Forge the Continental Army was on the soundly losing end of the war with Washington kicked out of New York, his only victory being able to keep his troops of hastily cobbled militiamen in an organized retreat. While the colonists had fought in the French and Indian Wars (Georgie himself included) they were largely an auxiliary force for the professional British army. The main advantage George and the colonists had was knowledge of the local terrain, with George having been a pathfinder for the British during the French and Indian war.

To pause briefly I think situation should showcase that subject nations shouldn't get the same military buffs as the overlord compared to HOI4, where they enjoy tech-sharing on doctrines. I don't think such a level of military integration was feasible in this era. Instead- I think military coordination should just be limited to it being much easier to get 'military advisors' from their overlord, with maybe military advisors in the same group adding an extra bonus.

Anyway after George's defeat at New York there was open talks of dismissing him as Commander of the Continental Army (something ludicrous to think of today what with his legendary status), but he was still the most experienced leader of the Colonies. Anyway they retreated to upper New York (state) at Valley Forge where winter set in. It was a light winter all things told, but the British figured victory was secured, and there was enough snowed in passes that they figured it wasn't worth finishing off George's forces, and instead focused on consolidating their gains (the Revolution had caught them off guard, so they still hadn't arrived in the colonies in force yet). Many of George's troops lacked uniforms and even shoes, and there were even talks of mutiny or surrender.

In comes Marquis de Laffayette, a fancy french nobleman that has become enamored with The Revolution. The French were quick to support a colonial revolt, if not the politics of replacing monarchy with democracy, but Laffayette was all in, despite being a nobleman himself. He'd been a career military man too, and so was educated in all the most modern european tactics, and he got on the first boat to the US and met with George and proceeded to drill his troops amongst military lines.

Now in terms of gameplay terms, this would be represented by Marquis de Laffayette joining the court of the independent US, and drilling the army at Valley Forge.

By the end of the winter the Continental Army was now a professional force, and while they lacked the same resources as Britain, they were bolstered by discipline and morale. It is said that the Continental Army was truly 'forged' that winter.

It should be noted though that while the Continental Army now fought along European Lines, they also had innovations in what we'd now call 'Guerilla Warfare' much of which they'd learned from skirmishes with the Indians. Now I think this should be represented with a buff to the US- maybe the US getting ONE native-american military doctrine added on top for them pertaining to ambushes. The US also was one of the first major innovators for designated marksman, where they used 'rifles' (different from a modern rifle, they were flintlocks with rifled barrels to increase accuracy from which modern rifles are descended) to pick off specific targets from rear positions (nowhere near as accurate as sniping but same kind of idea), and in general were able to very creatively use their smaller numbers to maximum effect.
 
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Unpredictable Weather and Rogue Waves: Deep-sea areas, like near the Cape of Storms (cape of good hope), can suddenly unleash violent storms and massive rogue waves that catch even the best sailors off guard.
Yeah I've researched them out of curiosity and do you know why they were considered a myth until 30 years ago? Most ships today don't survive a direct hit from a rogue wave, and their often made out of thousands of tons of reinforced steel with internal bulkheads specifically designed to make sinking them as hard as possible. If a ship from the games time-frame is hit by one of the proper*(technically a rogue wave is just any wave twice the height of the mean height of the tallest third of waves at the time, meaning that a 1m wave in a calm sea where the highest third of waves average out at around 33cm is by definition a rogue wave. RIP your model ship!) Nobody on board is going to live to tell you if they encounter anything above 6-9m never-mind the oft reported 30m open ocean monsters that are the modern pop culture stereotype inspired by the perfect storm and the Poseidon adventure.

After looking into them I realized I've actually encountered a moderately sized one on a oceanic cruise crossing the Atlantic and they are actually a HELL OF A LOT scarier than the pop culture portrayal. They look like these looming waves that only really peek out over the crests of the other waves and don't look that intimidating just like a wave about a third to a half bigger, but the real height of the wave is hidden by the equally massive troughs that proceed and succeed them. Another thing to note is they are not the portrayed breaking waves but they are incredibly steep a better way to describe it is they look like a literal wall of water. The ship almost lurches downward as it slams into the trough as the full height of the wave now slams the length of the ship as is passes along. I Know why sailors were(and still are) shit scared of these things they seem to come out of nowhere like a god damn oceanic battering ram, and that was in the Queen Mary 2 designed to deal with them. A rouge wave that didn't even reach the height to flood the promenade.
 
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In terms of raw numbers the polynesians had a low population, but what I mean is a very large percentage of their population would have seafaring skills owing to the geography of the region- similar to how the nomadic populations of Mongolia often grew up in the saddle (it was said they learned how to ride a horse before learning to walk). It's an element of geographic determinism.

Likewise I'd say europe's long coastlines and many peninsula's and seas are what gave them an advantage in sea-faring compared to say the America's or Africa. And that this likewise should be presented with expansive naval paths in a 'western' military doctrine (I'd argue for two paths in fact, both of which could be taken, a mediterranean centric path based on galleys and conflicts with muslim powers, inspired by say the Venetian Navy, while the other is an Atlantic centric path based more on heavy ships and colonialism).

I should caveat with I'm not an expert of American history, but it's a big part of the 'legend' of the Revolution (it of course is a matter of historical record, it's just given a ton of emphasis in the whole national myth).

Prior to Valley Forge the Continental Army was on the soundly losing end of the war with Washington kicked out of New York, his only victory being able to keep his troops of hastily cobbled militiamen in an organized retreat. While the colonists had fought in the French and Indian Wars (Georgie himself included) they were largely an auxiliary force for the professional British army. The main advantage George and the colonists had was knowledge of the local terrain, with George having been a pathfinder for the British during the French and Indian war.
Before Valley Forge, Washington was on the back foot—getting booted from New York and only managing to get his patchwork militiamen into an organised retreat. I really wonder how the game’s gonna show that kind of scenario. Using scrappy militiamen against a way superior enemy is exactly what small nations or those caught between big coalitions and hegemons have to deal with. I’d even throw in something like 'kuva-i milliye' troops, like in the Turkish Independence War, to show how national forces formed out of necessity. Think of the Anglo-Saxon fyrd or the irregulars in the Napoleonic era—where these ragtag forces eventually banded together to form a sort of national entity.

To pause briefly I think situation should showcase that subject nations shouldn't get the same military buffs as the overlord compared to HOI4, where they enjoy tech-sharing on doctrines. I don't think such a level of military integration was feasible in this era. Instead- I think military coordination should just be limited to it being much easier to get 'military advisors' from their overlord, with maybe military advisors in the same group adding an extra bonus.
Look at Crimea under Russian control or even the Scandinavian unions—tech and tactics were never on the same level, so it makes sense.
Anyway after George's defeat at New York there was open talks of dismissing him as Commander of the Continental Army (something ludicrous to think of today what with his legendary status), but he was still the most experienced leader of the Colonies. Anyway they retreated to upper New York (state) at Valley Forge where winter set in. It was a light winter all things told, but the British figured victory was secured, and there was enough snowed in passes that they figured it wasn't worth finishing off George's forces, and instead focused on consolidating their gains (the Revolution had caught them off guard, so they still hadn't arrived in the colonies in force yet). Many of George's troops lacked uniforms and even shoes, and there were even talks of mutiny or surrender.
I can’t imagine players just ignoring the harsh winter and carrying on as if it’s summer. It’d be ace if the game actually showed how winter quarters and a pause in fighting forced a real strategic shift.
In comes Marquis de Laffayette, a fancy french nobleman that has become enamored with The Revolution. The French were quick to support a colonial revolt, if not the politics of replacing monarchy with democracy, but Laffayette was all in, despite being a nobleman himself. He'd been a career military man too, and so was educated in all the most modern european tactics, and he got on the first boat to the US and met with George and proceeded to drill his troops amongst military lines.
Now in terms of gameplay terms, this would be represented by Marquis de Laffayette joining the court of the independent US, and drilling the army at Valley Forge.
having Marquis de Lafayette join the US and drill the troops? That’d be a fascinating in-game event!
By the end of the winter the Continental Army was now a professional force, and while they lacked the same resources as Britain, they were bolstered by discipline and morale. It is said that the Continental Army was truly 'forged' that winter.

It should be noted though that while the Continental Army now fought along European Lines, they also had innovations in what we'd now call 'Guerilla Warfare' much of which they'd learned from skirmishes with the Indians. Now I think this should be represented with a buff to the US- maybe the US getting ONE native-american military doctrine added on top for them pertaining to ambushes. The US also was one of the first major innovators for designated marksman, where they used 'rifles' (different from a modern rifle, they were flintlocks with rifled barrels to increase accuracy from which modern rifles are descended) to pick off specific targets from rear positions (nowhere near as accurate as sniping but same kind of idea), and in general were able to very creatively use their smaller numbers to maximum effect.
Lastly, about guerrilla warfare—I reckon we shouldn’t lump all guerrilla tactics together. The ones used in the Spanish Civil Wars, the American Indian Wars, or even those tactics that forced the Mongols off Java were all pretty different, each with its own pros and cons. I really hope some dev team picks up on these ideas of yours, ‘cause they’re seriously cool.
 
Yeah I've researched them out of curiosity and do you know why they were considered a myth until 30 years ago? Most ships today don't survive a direct hit from a rogue wave, and their often made out of thousands of tons of reinforced steel with internal bulkheads specifically designed to make sinking them as hard as possible. If a ship from the games time-frame is hit by one of the proper*(technically a rogue wave is just any wave twice the height of the mean height of the tallest third of waves at the time, meaning that a 1m wave in a calm sea where the highest third of waves average out at around 33cm is by definition a rogue wave. RIP your model ship!) Nobody on board is going to live to tell you if they encounter anything above 6-9m never-mind the oft reported 30m open ocean monsters that are the modern pop culture stereotype inspired by the perfect storm and the Poseidon adventure.
I've done some research on rogue waves too, so I totally get what you're saying. It's fascinating to read about them—it really refreshes my mind. Thanks for sharing that.

After looking into them I realized I've actually encountered a moderately sized one on a oceanic cruise crossing the Atlantic and they are actually a HELL OF A LOT scarier than the pop culture portrayal.
I'm curious about your experience when you encountered a moderately sized one on your Atlantic cruise. It sounds way scarier than what pop culture shows. I kinda wish I could see one too, but obviously, I wouldn't want to because of all the risks, lol.
They look like these looming waves that only really peek out over the crests of the other waves and don't look that intimidating just like a wave about a third to a half bigger, but the real height of the wave is hidden by the equally massive troughs that proceed and succeed them. Another thing to note is they are not the portrayed breaking waves but they are incredibly steep a better way to describe it is they look like a literal wall of water. The ship almost lurches downward as it slams into the trough as the full height of the wave now slams the length of the ship as is passes along. I Know why sailors were(and still are) shit scared of these things they seem to come out of nowhere like a god damn oceanic battering ram, and that was in the Queen Mary 2 designed to deal with them. A rouge wave that didn't even reach the height to flood the promenade.
Also, when you mentioned they're not like the usual breaking waves but more like a literal wall of water, it immediately reminded me of that guy in Interstellar who thought it was a mountain at first. Poseidon is another example that comes to mind. It seems like such a unique ocean event that should definitely be represented in a game. Sure, some people might laugh and say you'll lose ships for nothing, it is against the rules of competition and fairness, but this isn't an arcade game—it's meant to be detailed. Adding this kind of event could really give the game a unique flavor and make historical storytelling even richer, maybe even offering a narrative twist that Age of Empires 4 or Total War just doesn't have.
 
Before Valley Forge, Washington was on the back foot—getting booted from New York and only managing to get his patchwork militiamen into an organised retreat. I really wonder how the game’s gonna show that kind of scenario. Using scrappy militiamen against a way superior enemy is exactly what small nations or those caught between big coalitions and hegemons have to deal with. I’d even throw in something like 'kuva-i milliye' troops, like in the Turkish Independence War, to show how national forces formed out of necessity. Think of the Anglo-Saxon fyrd or the irregulars in the Napoleonic era—where these ragtag forces eventually banded together to form a sort of national entity.


Look at Crimea under Russian control or even the Scandinavian unions—tech and tactics were never on the same level, so it makes sense.

I can’t imagine players just ignoring the harsh winter and carrying on as if it’s summer. It’d be ace if the game actually showed how winter quarters and a pause in fighting forced a real strategic shift.


having Marquis de Lafayette join the US and drill the troops? That’d be a fascinating in-game event!

Lastly, about guerrilla warfare—I reckon we shouldn’t lump all guerrilla tactics together. The ones used in the Spanish Civil Wars, the American Indian Wars, or even those tactics that forced the Mongols off Java were all pretty different, each with its own pros and cons. I really hope some dev team picks up on these ideas of yours, ‘cause they’re seriously cool.
Given they are going to represent actual Peasant Levies then I think it's entirely possible to represent Colonial Militia and even the US Minutemen. I think what would be trickier would be showing their transition from a militia to an organized force.

Anyway they've said that winters will close mountain passes and even freeze certain sea tiles. So hopefully they portray that Upstate New York would be out of reach for a small(-ish) British force.
 
I'm curious about your experience when you encountered a moderately sized one on your Atlantic cruise. It sounds way scarier than what pop culture shows. I kinda wish I could see one too, but obviously, I wouldn't want to because of all the risks, lol.
The scary part is they can look so unassuming irl. in most cases the actual hight is mostly hidden by the tops of other waves. its only when its right in front of you they look so big. I never acttually saw the full extent of the one I encountred. I just saw this wierd looking tall wave peaking above the crests of the rolling waves in the distance then a few minutes later the shep felt like it fell into a hole. Admitidly not that big, a few people lost their footing and tripped up and continued on like nothing, chalking it up to the rough ish seas at the time.

This I think is the best footage of one online. Though its a lot closer and by the looks of things larger that what I saw.

Also, when you mentioned they're not like the usual breaking waves but more like a literal wall of water, it immediately reminded me of that guy in Interstellar who thought it was a mountain at first. Poseidon is another example that comes to mind. It seems like such a unique ocean event that should definitely be represented in a game. Sure, some people might laugh and say you'll lose ships for nothing, it is against the rules of competition and fairness, but this isn't an arcade game—it's meant to be detailed. Adding this kind of event could really give the game a unique flavor and make historical storytelling even richer, maybe even offering a narrative twist that Age of Empires 4 or Total War just doesn't have.
Honsetly of all the Pop culture depictions the one I think most looks like what I saw is assassins creed black flags rogue waves. Minus the overly frothy crests.
 
Given they are going to represent actual Peasant Levies then I think it's entirely possible to represent Colonial Militia and even the US Minutemen. I think what would be trickier would be showing their transition from a militia to an organized force.
Yeah, but we gotta think about their service time too. If I remember right, it was like 40 days, yeah? I think Christian nations should have militiamen with a time limit—no matter what’s happening on the battlefield, they’d just dip once their service is up. Just wanted to throw that into your idea!
 
I encountred. I just saw this wierd looking tall wave peaking above the crests of the rolling waves in the distance then a few minutes later the shep felt like it fell into a hole. Admitidly not that big, a few people lost their footing and tripped up and continued on like nothing, chalking it up to the rough ish seas at the time.
Did you guys get any kind of warning before or after the wave hit? Like, did the crew see it coming, or was it just a surprise?