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Tinto Talks #53 - 5th of March 2025

Hello everyone and welcome to another Tinto Talks. This is the Happy Wednesday where we tell you about what is going on with our entirely 100% secret game with the codename Project Caesar.


This week we will talk about how mercenaries and prisoners of war will work in this game..


As we mentioned in previous Tinto Talks, we have 3 types of regiments. Levies, Regulars and Mercenaries. You can at any point rearrange any army and move regiments freely between them, no matter the status of the regiment.

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This Teuton Army has 1440 men in the left flank, 545 in the center, 2567 in the rightflank and 373 in the reserves. Why so few in the center, I'd expect that is where the bulk of the regulars knights are. In total the army has 6 cavalry levy regiments, 2 regular, and 9 mercenaries, for a total of 634 men.



Hiring Mercenaries
When you hire a mercenary company, you will first need to find a commander that can raise the company for you. This is not a simple choice, as a more competent commander will cost more gold, but the amount of regiments you can raise under the mercenary depends both on the administrative ability of the commander, and the amount of possible mercenaries the pops of that area has.

Mercenary regiments rely on having their soldiers come from pops, and if there is not enough soldiers for them in an area, that will limit the amount of regiments

Negative Stability in the country together with devastation and low control in the location determines how many pops are willing to leave home and become mercenaries.

The type of regiments that a mercenary can raise depends on what regiments are commonly available in the area the mercenary is recruited from. Some types of regiments may be more common than others in an area, and just because you have found a nice 99 admin commander, he may not be able to raise enough of a certain type of regiment that you want.

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This is a pretty good commander which can lead a pretty big army..


Contracts and Extensions
When you hire a mercenary you set a default contract length, and at the end of that contract the mercenaries will stop their service. However, if you are still at war, the contract will be extended for another year. If you wish to terminate a contract in advance you need to pay the remaining contracted fee.

You can also have auto extension on contracts and manually extend a contract for another 24 months for an individual mercenary company at any time.

Each new contract signed or extended has a signing fee that heavily depends on the type of troops you wish to hire, and the skill of commander.

Bribing Mercenaries
However, just because a contract is signed does not mean that the mercenary will stay loyal for the entire contract. Another country may come around and just offer more money to buy their loyalty. This is not exactly cheap, but it can be rather useful at times.

Renting out your Armies
One alternative to paying gold every month to your regular regiments at peace is to rent them out as mercenaries. You can select any unit you have and put them on the market for a given percentage of your costs, usually above your own costs as you need to turn a profit after all. If all goes well, you earn gold, and your regiments get some nice experience.

These armies are then listed as possible armies to contract for any country within range.

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The Aragonese army is available fore hire for a cheap price..


Prisoners
Sometimes when you win a battle by overrunning the enemy, you can capture regiments of the defeated side. Overrun is what players refer to as stackwipe which happens when you have 10 to 1 odds, or when the other side has 0 morale you have a larger army.

There are multiple ways to deal with prisoners, if you don’t want to keep them around and feed them. No matter what though, the prisoners will die off slowly over time, as this is not the age of the Geneva Convention.

Through various unit abilities, you have ways to deal with the prisoners.

First of all, you can attempt to ransom them back to their owners, which will net you some gold, and return the regiments to their owner.
Secondly, you can recruit them to fight as mercenaries for you, but that means you have to pay them. The advantage of that, is that they won’t fight for your enemy though.
Thirdly, you can just execute them. That is a bit frowned upon, so it will impact your Aggressive Expansion, but sometimes it might be worth it.
The Fourth option you will know more about when we talk about the Nahuatl faith in a future Tinto Talks.

However, if you overrun an enemy army with prisoners, you will of course free them and take them back.




Now we have gone through the core mechanics we have for Project Caesar. The next few weeks we will go through all the changes that have happened during this year, thanks both to your great feedback and from internal and external testing. After that it's time to go through the mechanics of the different religions, the different situations and the different international organizations we have!
 
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I wonder if there's any chance for political/financial bungling which could cause the Mercs to go rogue and start pillaging their contractors country, I.E what the Catalan Company did to the Byzantines earlier in the century.

Also think it would be cool if Mercs cause more devastation to the locations they participate in occupying, as they are in it purely for the money and be more willing to loot as much for themselves as possible. Just a couple ideas I think would be interesting, great Tinto Talks post as always!
 
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1) Can you select wich type of soldiers will be located in the center or other flanks?
2) Can you create a HQ for each army? Like in EU4 for example. Or it will be more like in Victoria 3? Or CK3?

1 yes, complete freedom on that
2 no
 
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Is there any way to control mercenary companies that come from my country? What do I gain from having mercenary companies based in my land that go fight abroad and consume my pop base? Do they bring money/loot back?

nothing :p so make sure they are happy enough
 
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actually, the mercenaries are gathered from an entire area, so we dont keep track of that.,
Ah, that makes sense, and I suppose tying it to culture wouldn't help, either, as you'd not be able to hire same culture mercs to attack tags of your culture. It would have been cool to have mercs desert or rebel if you used them to invade their homes, but it's not a big deal for that to be absent.
 
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Prisoners
Sometimes when you win a battle by overrunning the enemy, you can capture regiments of the defeated side. Overrun is what players refer to as stackwipe which happens when you have 10 to 1 odds, or when the other side has 0 morale you have a larger army.

When you say 10 to 1 odds what does that mean exactly? Is it the amount of troops or difference in combat power? If it is the amount of manpower then there are plenty of historical examples beating those odds, especially against technologically inferior foes, so is there a reason why it's not worth it for those battles to be simulated and a reason they must always lose?
 
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Having mercenaries work as army based tags once first hired sounds like a good dlc idea. Just give them some way to go rogue and carve out their own land like a warlord in China or something.

Also, I'm surprised there isn't an option to enslave prisoners of war
 
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Edit:
And for those disagreeing, please do explain how you find no control over your mercenaries as more enjoyable, than being able to play them :)
  • It feels conceptually weird to me to loan armies as mercenaries to another country for them to theoretically control, but actually I’m still controlling them
  • I like the gameplay concept of loaning out your armies and maybe they do great, maybe they get squandered, maybe they get absolutely obliterated in a hopeless battle and you have to deal with the consequences of that, and giving you full control of them limits that risk in an artificial way
  • I want it to be more of a strategic decision weighing potential income, risk, and geopolitical considerations, and less of a “do I feel like doing military control right now?” decision
  • Considering the systems in the game and the type of gameplay it seems to be going for, if the player needs to manually control their loaned-out mercenary units in order to “have something to do” then the game has much bigger problems than a mercenary system
  • Giving the player control creates a lot of potential exploits, whether that be reaping benefit while avoiding all risk or manipulating the AI’s army strength calculations but not ever fighting
 
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Are there any buildings that you can build to increase the quality or quantity of mercenaries available in an area? For example, since they are based on pops, a building that allows a higher percentage of pops in an area you control to become mercenaries? Or a building that increases their fighting ability?
 
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Settling prisoners in Siberia or Greenland with free land against a nominal conversion? Being free might be a good argument winner. Maybe.

Even temporary labour, quite possibly with purported Greenlandish cultural flavor as in a guests duty to contribute to genetic diversity.
 
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Ah, that makes sense, and I suppose tying it to culture wouldn't help, either, as you'd not be able to hire same culture mercs to attack tags of your culture. It would have been cool to have mercs desert or rebel if you used them to invade their homes, but it's not a big deal for that to be absent.
Italian mercenaries attacked Italian countries all the time. Same with German mercenaries.

The concept of nationalism wasn't around in the middle ages. Arguably they should have some changes to mercenary gameplay across the different ages though. Similar to how crusades get turned off or the 'war has changed' event. Make it so extra rules are added in the age of nationalism.
 
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When a pop is raised as a soldier (regardless of whether its a levy, mercenary, or regular), does the game track the culture and religion of these pops, so when they get disbanded they have the same culture/religion? Or is it going to be like Imperator Migratory units that magically convert to the country's primary culture/religion?
 
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So from what I gathered mercenaries in PC are useful to recruit in your country when you have "poor" and underdeveloped areas far away from you capital filled with people belonging to cultures that you don't accept and therefore can't recruit as regulars but at the same time don't count as part of you manpower and in some cases they can provide for some unique cultural units that you normally can't get
 
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Also Question: I assume you can vassalize certain mercenaries like with the Hungarians and the Black Army, or the Pope and the Papal Guard.

Can you vassalize generic mercenary companies? I imagine that this would be difficult to accomplish, but possible. I should also imagine that doing so without a large enough army of your own means that they might try to take over the country entirely, so an 'all-mercenary army' would be bad stability wise.

But I'd like it if there was a generic event for tags to have a mercenary company form as a vassal for you. Maybe only if certain ideas are taken or decisions made.
 
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Renting out your Armies
One alternative to paying gold every month to your regular regiments at peace is to rent them out as mercenaries. You can select any unit you have and put them on the market for a given percentage of your costs, usually above your own costs as you need to turn a profit after all. If all goes well, you earn gold, and your regiments get some nice experience.

These armies are then listed as possible armies to contract for any country within range.

View attachment 1261399
The Aragonese army is available fore hire for a cheap price..
I'm comparing with EU4's "offer condotierri" option, which let you retain control of the unit, gain shared vision with the employer and where you could choose when the contract terminates. Heck you even chose when the contract started so your employer paid for your army marching halfway across a continent. Shared vision meant you could see what your enemy was doing because their ally was employing your condotierri.

So for PC's "player country mercenaries":
1. Do you retain control of the unit?
2. Can you choose who the buyer is?
3. Can that buyer use the hired army to attack you or your allies?
4. Who decides when the contract starts and ends when the mercenaries are some other state's standing army?
5. Do you get shared vision of what the employer sees?
 
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Italian mercenaries attacked Italian countries all the time. Same with German mercenaries.

The concept of nationalism wasn't around in the middle ages. Arguably they should have some changes to mercenary gameplay across the different ages though. Similar to how crusades get turned off or the 'war has changed' event. Make it so extra rules are added in the age of nationalism.
Agreed? That's what I was saying. It wouldn't make sense to make attacking tags with the same culture cause disloyalty, which is the only way I could imagine it might have worked on a technical level, with what Johan said about not tracking where the merc pops are actually from.
 
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I'm very excited about the inclusion of mass prisoners, since this era saw several notable developments in international relations via the treatment of prisoners. I am interested in their complexity, and how much micromanagement/micromanagement is involced in their, well, management.
Sometimes when you win a battle by overrunning the enemy, you can capture regiments of the defeated side. Overrun is what players refer to as stackwipe which happens when you have 10 to 1 odds, or when the other side has 0 morale you have a larger army.
Is there any priority to prisoners? For example, in Medieval Europe, knights were prized for being worthwhile ransoms. Meanwhile, common footsoldiers would often be killed and looted, since they would often not be worth the cost of holding them until the prize was paid. In games where knights are usually outnumbered by footmen, I can see the propotion of prisoners being easily swayed for the latter, which doesnt really reflect the record.
Meanwhile, is there any preference for taking prisoners? IE, would Hindu take as many prisoners from overruning a fellow Hindu versus overruning a Muslim army? Will religious relations alter over time to affect this rate (Catholics and Protestants will take few of the other's during the 30 Years War, but can accept each other during the War of Austrian Succession)?
Will military slavetaking cultures have more preference for acquring captives to add to their ghulam?
Are naval units and fort garrisons added to prisoner pools? A large amount of captures were made when a force would be forced to surrender their fortress to the enemy.
There are multiple ways to deal with prisoners, if you don’t want to keep them around and feed them. No matter what though, the prisoners will die off slowly over time, as this is not the age of the Geneva Convention.
Do captives have a maintence/supply cost associated with them? One of the major issues with pre-modern armies, as referenced above, was that some captives were just not cost-efficient.
However, if you overrun an enemy army with prisoners, you will of course free them and take them back.
This post implies that prisoners are maintained in an army, so how are they treated upon peacetime/if an army is disbanded? What if the prisoners outnumber the army, can they overpower/escape on their own?
Can prisoners be stationed in a fort so that you don't need to haul them around with your entire army, incurring the associated penalties? If so, would this affect their maintenace cost, and could there be a slider to afford more or less care to them (like if they get tents, a prison barge, or just have to sleep in the open)? Certainly, no Geneva convention to keep them all alive, but some nations did organize infrastructure to retain captured enemies--however crude and cruel they turned out to be.
While a part of armies, are they maintained as a kind of camp follower that retains their status and can be interacted with seperately (1 captive unit of Cavalry, 2 captive infantry) or are they grouped together (captured army from the Battle of Savoy)?
Through various unit abilities, you have ways to deal with the prisoners
First of all, you can attempt to ransom them back to their owners, which will net you some gold, and return the regiments to their owner.
Secondly, you can recruit them to fight as mercenaries for you, but that means you have to pay them. The advantage of that, is that they won’t fight for your enemy though.
Thirdly, you can just execute them. That is a bit frowned upon, so it will impact your Aggressive Expansion, but sometimes it might be worth it.
The Fourth option you will know more about when we talk about the Nahuatl faith in a future Tinto Talks.
Are all of these decisions instantaneous, IE just immediately after the battle, or can I later ransom enemy soldiers when I need more money? Can I ask to ransom my imprisoned soldiers when I've got more money, or do some sort of cost-equivalent prisoner exchange?

In addition to those proposing enslavement of captured enemies, I'd propose another option, maybe locked by the Age of Absolution: Parole. This was common between Christian European armies of the 18th and 19th centuries, where, swearing an oath to agree to terms, an army could surrender and become noncombatants for a set period of time/the end of the war. This would save an army the logistical issue of having to feed an enemy force, while still retaining the honor of battle amongst both forces (particularly if allowed to maintain arms and colors). While there are complications with the specifics of terms, it could be simplified as that the Paroled unit be removed as a Prisoner, and the pops will, gradually, be returned to the Paroled unit's owner, representing their addition back to their homeland (with an appropriate % removed for desertion and difficulties making it back home).
 
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Any chance we can get an event that if mercs come from really bad lands, and our lands are prosperous upon their contract expiring we get to offer them to settle locally?
 
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