How to solve the problem of performance with China

[peteoj]

I get your concern, but if we prioritize regions based on the number of surviving written historical sources, then China surpasses Europe by a huge margin. Many of these hundreds of cultures you mentioned simply don’t have enough historical information available, and their impact on history was relatively minor.

And I can’t help but add that a cut-off map hinders gameplay in the regions bordering that empty space. I play in Central Asia, and adding China would be far better than any flavor pack. I imagine players in India feel the same way. To give an example—it’s like if the map had the rest of Europe but completely omitted Britain and Spain.

As I said before, I don't believe there's anything that could be done by actually adding china on the map that couldn't be done by adding decisions, events, tribute systems, trade nodes and off screen activities interacting with a China that's not necessarily physically on screen. You get the mechanics and influence of China but without the investment of dev time that could instead go to improving the areas we have right now, improving balance, flavor, ai and more.

 

[vandevere]

If China absolutely must be added, then I respectfully suggest a Game Rule to let players decide if they want to let their pcs be subjected to the stress of running the game. Or if they want China in the first place...

 

[WTH666444]

As I said before, I don't believe there's anything that could be done by actually adding china on the map that couldn't be done by adding decisions, events, tribute systems, trade nodes and off screen activities interacting with a China that's not necessarily physically on screen. You get the mechanics and influence of China but without the investment of dev time that could instead go to improving the areas we have right now, improving balance, flavor, ai and more.

Would be my preferred solution. China is important if you're doing nomads, but dev time faces the same constraints all other time does and now is not the right time.
Though I grow ever more convinced they've already decided.

The crowd arguing for an ever wider map without a thought as to its depth are tearing this game to shreds and pieces.

 

[BaliorPal]

As I said before, I don't believe there's anything that could be done by actually adding china on the map that couldn't be done by adding decisions, events, tribute systems, trade nodes and off screen activities interacting with a China that's not necessarily physically on screen. You get the mechanics and influence of China but without the investment of dev time that could instead go to improving the areas we have right now, improving balance, flavor, ai and more.

How do I move my capital to Chang'an?

 

[Prosodium]

One reason could be that some people want actually play as China?

I wonder why they haven't made a GSG on Chinese history by now

 

[peteoj]

Would be my preferred solution. China is important if you're doing nomads, but dev time faces the same constraints all other time does and now is not the right time.
Though I grow ever more convinced they've already decided.

The crowd arguing for an ever wider map without a thought as to its depth are tearing this game to shreds and pieces.

Expanding the map right now just feels narrow-minded and short-sighted. The current map is already massive, yet much of it still feels empty. Core mechanics like diplomacy, warfare, trade, crusades, and even basic flavor for major medieval kingdoms like France and England are severely lacking. And yet, instead of fixing those issues, the devs want to prioritize adding China? What exactly is their thought process?

I have no faith in Paradox anymore. I can already see how this plays out—some stress-riddled Chinese emperor blobbing into Russia because his overpowered, reskinned Themata troops steamroll everything. Press your Yin-Yang buttons every four years for 9000 gold and prestige. Watch as every YouTuber floods the internet with "WE CONQUERED THE WORLD AS CHINA IN ONE LIFETIME" videos, because at the end of the day, that’s the audience Paradox seems to be chasing.

Do we get meaningful diplomacy? Modular treaties? Improved vassal and realm management? Better crusades and warfare? Nope. Instead, we get a giant map expansion, not because it improves the game but because it looks flashy and will get people to buy the overpriced chapter bundles. Meanwhile, the game’s crumbling foundation is left untouched.

Honestly, I’m losing faith in CK3 more every day. At this point, I just hope EU5 gets announced soon so I can finally get a medieval grand strategy game with actual depth.

 

[peteoj]

How do I move my capital to Chang'an?

I could see it playing out as a series of event cycle, you use events to show the expansion into China, events and skill checks to show the conquest, events to show the moving of a capital and events to show the Eventual rebellions that lock you out of China if that's such a big concern for you.

 

[Silens]

I wonder why they haven't made a GSG on Chinese history by now

Over ten years ago, they made two games, each was about a very narrow scenario: Sengoku (16th century Japan) and March of the Eagles (Napoleon). As you can probably imagine, the average PDX game enjoyer isn't thrilled with a narrow game or a limited scenario. Both games commercially flopped.

GSG are PDXs business model now, the grand scale is one of the main selling points. That's how they make their money, it's their trademark, they even coined the term GSG to be different from "normal" (implied "shallow" and/or "small") strategy games.

A game set only in China wouldn't be a GSG, and it also wouldn't go over well with the core audience of PDX as a publisher.

 

[Prosodium]

A game set only in China wouldn't be a GSG

I get your point but China is huge both in terms of size and history. A whole "mediaeval" Asia game might justify the GSG tag, but I grant you that the average Paradoxian might not find it appealing.

 

[WTH666444]

Expanding the map right now just feels narrow-minded and short-sighted. The current map is already massive, yet much of it still feels empty. Core mechanics like diplomacy, warfare, trade, crusades, and even basic flavor for major medieval kingdoms like France and England are severely lacking. And yet, instead of fixing those issues, the devs want to prioritize adding China? What exactly is their thought process?

I have no faith in Paradox anymore. I can already see how this plays out—some stress-riddled Chinese emperor blobbing into Russia because his overpowered, reskinned Themata troops steamroll everything. Press your Yin-Yang buttons every four years for 9000 gold and prestige. Watch as every YouTuber floods the internet with "WE CONQUERED THE WORLD AS CHINA IN ONE LIFETIME" videos, because at the end of the day, that’s the audience Paradox seems to be chasing.

Do we get meaningful diplomacy? Modular treaties? Improved vassal and realm management? Better crusades and warfare? Nope. Instead, we get a giant map expansion, not because it improves the game but because it looks flashy and will get people to buy the overpriced chapter bundles. Meanwhile, the game’s crumbling foundation is left untouched.

Honestly, I’m losing faith in CK3 more every day. At this point, I just hope EU5 gets announced soon so I can finally get a medieval grand strategy game with actual depth.

I couldn't agree more.

I don't know what part of them causes them to fail to understand that five youtubers looking to make a quick buck, and the thousands who are bored enough to watch them on a slow Saturday, yet not desperate enough to blow their money on a clearly broken game, don't make for sustainable, sustained development.

I've been unhappy with the game for a while, the focus on totally irrelevant 3d stuff and the pace at which they approach the major issues still plaguing the game (I'd add inheritance, religion and culture to your already depressingly long list) is to be critisised in the harshest terms, but stuck around for lack of alternatives. EU5 (which I can't wait for, never have I wanted a game this much) will put an end to that. Johan has learned his lessons from Imperator, and Tinto is all we have for now.

Just compare the differences made between entries for EU and CK.
EU5 has overhauled every system in a major, major way.
CK3 has improved UI, added some functionality (it's much easier to rise and fall in the feudal hierarchy, think of "Claim Throne"), cut lots of content and, after five (!) years finally improved on something else, the ERE. That's just not enough. How many hundreds of dollars have we been made to spend already?
China is really, really, really far down my list of priorities.

 

[Flockingbird]

Every time I see the title of this thread,

How to solve the problem of performance with China​

this chorus starts playing in my head:

Except there are too many syllables in the thread title to fit, and my brain does a record scratch!

Help!



Edit: some of the nuns’ complaints about Maria remind me of things said about CK3 devs.

 

[Azgabeth]

One reason could be that some people want actually play as China?

I get the concerns about performance, but let's not pretend that everyone hates China and that nobody wants to play there. It's about personal taste and preference, and I really don't understand why some people feel the need to enforce their personal taste on everyone. It's pointless.

Its not about hating china or personal taste or preference or anything.

In an ideal world where CK3 was a working game nobody would get mad about the addition of China.

But we're not living in an ideal world, we're living in the real world where CK3 is a broken mess, with performance issues and where key areas of the world like HRE do not function as they should, where the whole subcontinent of India exist mostly to just drain your pc's resources, etc.

When your roof is broken and its raining in your home, you don't build another room, you fix the roof first.

 

[WTH666444]

Its not about hating china or personal taste or preference or anything.

In an ideal world where CK3 was a working game nobody would get mad about the addition of China.

But we're not living in an ideal world, we're living in the real world where CK3 is a broken mess, with performance issues and where key areas of the world like HRE do not function as they should, where the whole subcontinent of India exist mostly to just drain your pc's resources, etc.

When your roof is broken and its raining in your home, you don't build another room, you fix the roof first.

How about buying a bridge? I have a work of art just over in Brazil over the Amazonas, currently on sale.

 

[Azgabeth]

I have no faith in Paradox anymore. I can already see how this plays out—some stress-riddled Chinese emperor blobbing into Russia because his overpowered, reskinned Themata troops steamroll everything. Press your Yin-Yang buttons every four years for 9000 gold and prestige. Watch as every YouTuber floods the internet with "WE CONQUERED THE WORLD AS CHINA IN ONE LIFETIME" videos, because at the end of the day, that’s the audience Paradox seems to be chasing.

If china gets released i expect a morbillin WORLD CONQUEST AS CHINA 1 MONTH SPEEDRUN ANY % videos.

 

[BaliorPal]

How about buying a bridge? I have a work of art just over in Brazil over the Amazonas, currently on sale.

I have a drawing of a bridge!

 

[peteoj]

Its not about hating china or personal taste or preference or anything.

In an ideal world where CK3 was a working game nobody would get mad about the addition of China.

But we're not living in an ideal world, we're living in the real world where CK3 is a broken mess, with performance issues and where key areas of the world like HRE do not function as they should, where the whole subcontinent of India exist mostly to just drain your pc's resources, etc.

When your roof is broken and its raining in your home, you don't build another room, you fix the roof first.

You make a really good point. People need to understand that no matter how good a China DLC might be in theory, no matter how well-made its systems are, it will always be bogged down by the fundamental flaws of the game.

The AI will always be inept and unable to use whatever new mechanics or currency they add. Warfare will always be mind-numbingly dumb and easy to exploit. Neighboring AI will always be passive and useless, effectively acting as fodder for your power fantasy. Whatever new currency they introduce will be unbalanced and broken. New legacies and traits will be busted. Performance will slow to a crawl.

I don’t want any major expansions until they show clear intent and active work on overhauls. The thought of them investing time and resources into adding a massive new region—knowing it will probably release broken and take another year to “fix” with balancing, performance patches, and general improvements—while the game still lacks basic features from its predecessor five years into development just fills me with immense apathy.

 

[Goalshunter13]

They already can with mods if they want to. Instead of adding extra land that can be done by modders, paradox should focus on imporoving mechanics, fixing bugs, and making more stuff unhardcoded for more opportunities for modders to work with.

By your logic Paradox shouldnt do Coronations, HRE flavour, Catholic Rework or Republics

You can play all of them with currently available nods.

 

[Goalshunter13]

You make a really good point. People need to understand that no matter how good a China DLC might be in theory, no matter how well-made its systems are, it will always be bogged down by the fundamental flaws of the game.

The AI will always be inept and unable to use whatever new mechanics or currency they add. Warfare will always be mind-numbingly dumb and easy to exploit. Neighboring AI will always be passive and useless, effectively acting as fodder for your power fantasy. Whatever new currency they introduce will be unbalanced and broken. New legacies and traits will be busted. Performance will slow to a crawl.

I don’t want any major expansions until they show clear intent and active work on overhauls. The thought of them investing time and resources into adding a massive new region—knowing it will probably release broken and take another year to “fix” with balancing, performance patches, and general improvements—while the game still lacks basic features from its predecessor five years into development just fills me with immense apathy.

Lets be real, a major rework is only probable with CK4 at this point...

 

[Ker0]

Compared to some posters on here I dont mind Crusader Kings 3 as it is right now thaaat much, but I don't see it as a deep grand strategy game.
I view it more as a sandboxy story generator, which is obviously very different from a crunchy grand strategy game.
When I want to micromanage resources down to the smallest detail and have a challenge, I play Stellaris.

Im not opposed to Paradox adding China, but frankly, they could have waited another 2 years and focused on other things. This isnt even me saying they need to focus on Central Europe, like the HRE or France. Seriously, Africa and India are still barebones as hell. At least were getting Nomads which should fill up the steppes nicely.

To put it frankly, if they needed China to justify adding Nomads, they shouldn't have added Nomads in the first place.

And this is coming from someone who is looking forward to Nomads and China.

 

[WTH666444]

Compared to some posters on here I dont mind Crusader Kings 3 as it is right now thaaat much, but I don't see it as a deep grand strategy game.
I view it more as a sandboxy story generator, which is obviously very different from a crunchy grand strategy game.
When I want to micromanage resources down to the smallest detail and have a challenge, I play Stellaris.

Im not opposed to Paradox adding China, but frankly, they could have waited another 2 years and focused on other things. This isnt even me saying they need to focus on Central Europe, like the HRE or France. Seriously, Africa and India are still barebones as hell. At least were getting Nomads which should fill up the steppes nicely.

To put it frankly, if they needed China to justify adding Nomads, they shouldn't have added Nomads in the first place.

And this is coming from someone who is looking forward to Nomads and China.