Few developed colonies or many undeveloped ones?

[Carlux]

Which is more worthwhile: having a small colonial territory and developing it extensively (with significant resources) or having a large but underdeveloped territory?

The question is primarily about when colonial administrations are created, especially when the colonizing nation is a relatively small power, like Spain, Belgium, and Sweden.

 

[Delterius]

The game is about population, resources and, arguably, grabbing everything you can get away with. So this is a bit of a false dichotomy. India is valuable to Britain due to the massive potential for exploitation. México's north is valuable to the USA because of its potential for development. Siberia is useful to Russia because its resources that don't even need that much development in the first place. If you're playing a small country like Spain then what you actually wanna do is look at the resource map and create or exploit a diplomatic situations where you can do landgrabs of useful territory - in coal, iron, gold or whatever. Which is why people enjoy allying Britain and annexing the Boers.

However, even then the question is what you actually want to achieve. Victoria 3 has changed a lot since release, but one thing still rings true and that's the idea that this is a game about 'nation gardening'. Strictly speaking Spain might be better off conquering Arabia for its oil, but is that what you want to do?

 

[Carlux]

The game is about population, resources and, arguably, grabbing everything you can get away with. So this is a bit of a false dichotomy. India is valuable to Britain due to the massive potential for exploitation. México's north is valuable to the USA because of its potential for development. Siberia is useful to Russia because its resources that don't even need that much development in the first place. If you're playing a small country like Spain then what you actually wanna do is look at the resource map and create or exploit a diplomatic situations where you can do landgrabs of useful territory - in coal, iron, gold or whatever. Which is why people enjoy allying Britain and annexing the Boers.

However, even then the question is what you actually want to achieve. Victoria 3 has changed a lot since release, but one thing still rings true and that's the idea that this is a game about 'nation gardening'. Strictly speaking Spain might be better off conquering Arabia for its oil, but is that what you want to do?

I also mean that with a truly small country with a small population, for example Denmark, it is so difficult to expand colonially, and with such a small population, you focus on developing small portions of land in Africa and protectorates in Asia.

 

[Delterius]

I also mean that with a truly small country with a small population, for example Denmark, it is so difficult to expand colonially, and with such a small population, you focus on developing small portions of land in Africa and protectorates in Asia.

I don't think its that hard. Some people are creating colonial empires with the italian minors. Target, say, Ethiopia on game start and you'll have a population with which to create a colonial corps.

 

[Carlux]

I don't think its that hard. Some people are creating colonial empires with the italian minors. Target, say, Ethiopia on game start and you'll have a population with which to create a colonial corps.

I myself tend to create colonial empires with two Sicilies, but for that population to count for colonization you have to be in integrated states and not be discriminated against, I think.

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

Few developed ones, as long as thats not too few to hold you from further development.

Generally speaking its better to be a country that has 1 province with 10 million pops in it than 10 provinces with 1 million in it. One-state minors for one have never issues of mapi to contend with or atleast not in their on country, for the purpose of Mapi 1 big state is clearly bettter than many smaller ones. And the same is true for when it comes to applying province decrees, thats why many will put their social mobillety decrees if they use them on their most populous provinces. It doesnt cost more to put a decree on a state with 10 million pop vs 1 million pop, but it sure does cost a lot more to put 10 decrees on 10 states that just on one. Theres a whole slew of advantages to be honest to having your pop all thrown toghether in 1 superstate, gives you a lof of infrastructure from people that it might take a while before you would need even think about infrastructure deficits too.

But even apart from that, from the perspective of colonizer to the one to be colonized there are other metrics that can be more important, especially if the nature of their states would give you a monopoly on many of the goods they buy providing they are forced in your market. A good example is Etheopia, it has practically no minerals and hence if they are in a market with you then they will buy their minerals exclusivly from you. There are other regiosns or potential puppets who wholely lack this or that and it can be very lucrative for a colonizer to get such monopoly positions trough a common market if your vassals are big and can only buy it from you.

 

[Carlux]

Few developed ones, as long as thats not too few to hold you from further development.

Generally speaking its better to be a country that has 1 province with 10 million pops in it than 10 provinces with 1 million in it. One-state minors for one have never issues of mapi to contend with or atleast not in their on country, for the purpose of Mapi 1 big state is clearly bettter than many smaller ones. And the same is true for when it comes to applying province decrees, thats why many will put their social mobillety decrees if they use them on their most populous provinces. It doesnt cost more to put a decree on a state with 10 million pop vs 1 million pop, but it sure does cost a lot more to put 10 decrees on 10 states that just on one. Theres a whole slew of advantages to be honest to having your pop all thrown toghether in 1 superstate, gives you a lof of infrastructure from people that it might take a while before you would need even think about infrastructure deficits too.

But even apart from that, from the perspective of colonizer to the one to be colonized there are other metrics that can be more important, especially if the nature of their states would give you a monopoly on many of the goods they buy providing they are forced in your market. A good example is Etheopia, it has practically no minerals and hence if they are in a market with you then they will buy their minerals exclusivly from you. There are other regiosns or potential puppets who wholely lack this or that and it can be very lucrative for a colonizer to get such monopoly positions trough a common market if your vassals are big and can only buy it from you.

That's why it's better to start colonizing with Sardinia and Piedmont or two Sicilies rather than Denmark or Sweden?

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

That's why it's better to start colonizing with Sardinia and Piedmont or two Sicilies rather than Denmark or Sweden?

Thats an exception as Scandinavia has a wealth of provincial modifiers that i can only associate with a Swedish development firm. Its a bit like having a free resource decree on pretty much every province, not conspicious at all!

its just also that certain colonies are just juicier than others, like say Panjab or Transvaal. But i like that there is a certain diversity there that can make various colonies more interesting according to the nation you play. Like for example if you play 2 sicily then you have a pretty nice province in Sicily that can produce loads of sulpher and very effecient fertilizer, so its great if you can add a big populous colony to your market that has no sulpher at all, then they have to buy that sulpher from you and likely will buy much of their fertilizer and maybe explosives from you too if you have companies operating these in Sicely. Sulpher mining is a pretty good industry with a high worth towards earnings per worker and GDP contribution that beats other forms of mining so its very nice if you can make sulpher a proportionally very big industry in your country.

 

[Carlux]

Thats an exception as Scandinavia has a wealth of provincial modifiers that i can only associate with a Swedish development firm. Its a bit like having a free resource decree on pretty much every province, not conspicious at all!

I don't know if I understood you correctly. Do you mean that it is possible to create a colonial empire with Denmark or Sweden, even with such a small population?

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

I don't know if I understood you correctly. Do you mean that it is possible to create a colonial empire with Denmark or Sweden, even with such a small population?

Sure.

Heck Denmark starts with a pretty nice army and fleet, it can go take down loads of colonies from the start. It also starts with colonial exploitation, very nifty especially when you are small. Even the likes of Belgium or Portugal dont start with the kind of fleet Denmark starts with, and it takes a while to train up ships so Denmark can hit the colonial stage far sooner than many others. it also can easily get a lot of adjacency's with large markets so to do overland trade.

It's poppulation takes some carefull management, or alternativly you can also attract immigration, it has a lack of local mineral resources for sure so its colonies can aid to help with that problem as in time it will want better construction sectors that dont take too much people. Or alternativly you just create scandinavia, then you have more people too and all the minerals you need.

Sweden is hardly in the worst position. Sure not nessecarily abundant in people, but it has enough, what it can do is create some quite valuably high troughput industries like in mining thanks trough an abundance in troughput modifiers which can make a lot of money in trade too especially with land adjecency's but it's not too hard to build some rather cost effecient shipping industry in those country's either and turn Norway into Surströmming heaven.

 

[Carlux]

Sure.

Heck Denmark starts with a pretty nice army and fleet, it can go take down loads of colonies from the start. It also starts with colonial exploitation, very nifty especially when you are small. Even the likes of Belgium or Portugal dont start with the kind of fleet Denmark starts with, and it takes a while to train up ships so Denmark can hit the colonial stage far sooner than many others. it also can easily get a lot of adjacency's with large markets so to do overland trade.

It's poppulation takes some carefull management, or alternativly you can also attract immigration, it has a lack of local mineral resources for sure so its colonies can aid to help with that problem as in time it will want better construction sectors that dont take too much people. Or alternativly you just create scandinavia, then you have more people too and all the minerals you need.

Sweden is hardly in the worst position. Sure not nessecarily abundant in people, but it has enough, what it can do is create some quite valuably high troughput industries like in mining thanks trough an abundance in troughput modifiers which can make a lot of money in trade too especially with land adjecency's but it's not too hard to build some rather cost effecient shipping industry in those country's either and turn Norway into Surströmming heaven.

Whenever I try to play Denmark, I get stuck. I can't make any money, and it's very difficult to advance. I think Sweden is a better option, especially because it also has unique modifiers.

So, is it easier to play colonial with Sweden than with the Italian states?

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

Whenever I try to play Denmark, I get stuck. I can't make any money, and it's very difficult to advance. I think Sweden is a better option, especially because it also has unique modifiers.

Well i guess i shouldnt tell you the exploitish way to get rich fast. i have an AAR running on Denmark where i do such and its already "a bit much" lol. Shameless advertisement going on here.

Normally, it's a bit like Netherlands, you start with quite some ports and shipping so best to use it, you want to specialize to few industry's and import/export. Certain industry's can be quite nice if you dont overbuild them, a few furniture factory's for example that purchase their wood at tariff and sell their furniture at tariff, early on you can get plenty of wood from Russia who's close and probably enough markets to sell a fair number of that. But even then you will need people for universities and construction sectors too so it's kinda advisable to stick to a few high worth industries that amplify their value trough import export tariffs as you dont have manpower to spare in Denmark propper for industry, and for the rest to build some colonies with colonial exploitation to get some good value dividends and a difference place with plenty of manpower to prop up your economy. Even Danish Togo can be a pretty nice place to make some good early money on the dyes trade.

 

[Carlux]

Well i guess i shouldnt tell you the exploitish way to get rich fast. i have an AAR running on Denmark where i do such and its already "a bit much" lol. Shameless advertisement going on here.

Normally, it's a bit like Netherlands, you start with quite some ports and shipping so best to use it, you want to specialize to few industry's and import/export. Certain industry's can be quite nice if you dont overbuild them, a few furniture factory's for example that purchase their wood at tariff and sell their furniture at tariff, early on you can get plenty of wood from Russia who's close and probably enough markets to sell a fair number of that. But even then you will need people for universities and construction sectors too so it's kinda advisable to stick to a few high worth industries that amplify their value trough import export tariffs as you dont have manpower to spare in Denmark propper for industry, and for the rest to build some colonies with colonial exploitation to get some good value dividends and a difference place with plenty of manpower to prop up your economy. Even Danish Togo can be a pretty nice place to make some good early money on the dyes trade.

And is the way of playing similar with Sweden?

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

And is the way of playing similar with Sweden?

Sweden can easily go a more autartic route given the wealth of natural resources and great modifiers she has to it, i guess you probably want to push for immigration with Sweden real soon, such huge mineral industries with added modifiers scream for it. Denmark itself doesnt have that, just a pitifull amount of resources and land.

They all have the advantage of having all their provinces being coastal, so its a good alternative to use ports for the infrastructure generation rather than any railroads. There is a fair amount of demand for things like iron early in the game which im sure can be nice for Sweden.

 

[Carlux]

Sweden can easily go a more autartic route given the wealth of natural resources and great modifiers she has to it, i guess you probably want to push for immigration with Sweden real soon, such huge mineral industries with added modifiers scream for it. Denmark itself doesnt have that, just a pitifull amount of resources and land.

They all have the advantage of having all their provinces being coastal, so its a good alternative to use ports for the infrastructure generation rather than any railroads. There is a fair amount of demand for things like iron early in the game which im sure can be nice for Sweden.

But it is not as easy as with the Italian states (Cerdagne and Piedmont and two Sicilies)

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

But it is not as easy as with the Italian states (Cerdagne and Piedmont and two Sicilies)

i think they only get the advantage of more initial population, aswell as that Italy is a stronger form than Scandinavia if the latter doesnt get immigration. But Sweden has the longer term advantage with all those province modifiers i reckon it only needs the immigration which shouldnt be too hard to pull of either.

I do like that Sicely sulpher mine though, its a while since i played 2 sicelys. Some funky stuff you can do in sicely with some companyes like say sulpher and fertilizer and perhaps even grain. It can go large on the food exports too thats for sure, all its provinces are coastal too afaik so no loss to do massive grain trades requiring lots of ports & ships if you rack in a nice tariff.

 

[Carlux]

i think they only get the advantage of more initial population, aswell as that Italy is a stronger form than Scandinavia if the latter doesnt get immigration. But Sweden has the longer term advantage with all those province modifiers i reckon it only needs the immigration which shouldnt be too hard to pull of either.

I do like that Sicely sulpher mine though, its a while since i played 2 sicelys. Some funky stuff you can do in sicely with some companyes like say sulpher and fertilizer and perhaps even grain. It can go large on the food exports too thats for sure, all its provinces are coastal too afaik so no loss to do massive grain trades requiring lots of ports & ships if you rack in a nice tariff.

I think it's easier to build the empire with Denmark or Sweden, especially since they have more technology.

I remember asking this question on this forum, and they told me that neither Sweden nor Denmark were good for colonial play.

 

[TheFlemishDuck]

I think it's easier to build the empire with Denmark or Sweden, especially since they have more technology.

I remember asking this question on this forum, and they told me that neither Sweden nor Denmark were good for colonial play.

I dont think i agree to that.

i do like strategy's that revolve aroudn making a synergetic comon market with dependancy. Basically as Sweden i would make Ethopia my vassal and preferably release it as my vassal with my tech after i have researched pumpjacks. What this will allow me to do is to make the Swedish poppulation move away from farming and many other industries to focus primarely on mining, as Etheopia does not have any minerals at all and will want to buy a lot of them, but the thing is also that tEthopia can have loads of plantations and as a result it can have a huge engines demand which can be another pretty worthwhile industry to be strong in if you can stack a lot of engines factories in a good mining province. Throughput modifiers on minerals like coal and iron already allow steel to be produced cheaper especially with a company which can furthermore make an engines company quite a thing. These industries can achieve great productivity per worker and employ loads of engineers and mechanics which is good, youll be richer usually for having all your pop into mining rather than when they would all be in farming. Granted you will want diesel pumps, that means you will also want lots of oil, and later on you also will want rubber to churn out a lot of cars from those engines factories too and dominate the car market.

I mean, thats one way to play it, and you can add more similar dependant markets beyond just Etheopia that will demand ever more minerals, steel, tools and engines. You can really pump the GDP per capita with those industries if you have the nessecary resources comming from colonies as Sweden. late game engines and car market can be pretty large and really make a country strong if its dominant in its exports but thats easier done too if you can have dependant markets that already demand so much that you need to stack the factory's and gain a lot of extra troughput trough it too.

 

[Carlux]

I dont think i agree to that.

i do like strategy's that revolve aroudn making a synergetic comon market with dependancy. Basically as Sweden i would make Ethopia my vassal and preferably release it as my vassal with my tech after i have researched pumpjacks. What this will allow me to do is to make the Swedish poppulation move away from farming and many other industries to focus primarely on mining, as Etheopia does not have any minerals at all and will want to buy a lot of them, but the thing is also that tEthopia can have loads of plantations and as a result it can have a huge engines demand which can be another pretty worthwhile industry to be strong in if you can stack a lot of engines factories in a good mining province. Throughput modifiers on minerals like coal and iron already allow steel to be produced cheaper especially with a company which can furthermore make an engines company quite a thing. These industries can achieve great productivity per worker and employ loads of engineers and mechanics which is good, youll be richer usually for having all your pop into mining rather than when they would all be in farming. Granted you will want diesel pumps, that means you will also want lots of oil, and later on you also will want rubber to churn out a lot of cars from those engines factories too and dominate the car market.

I mean, thats one way to play it, and you can add more similar dependant markets beyond just Etheopia that will demand ever more minerals, steel, tools and engines. You can really pump the GDP per capita with those industries if you have the nessecary resources comming from colonies as Sweden. late game engines and car market can be pretty large and really make a country strong if its dominant in its exports but thats easier done too if you can have dependant markets that already demand so much that you need to stack the factory's and gain a lot of extra troughput trough it too.

But what you're talking about are very convoluted strategies due to the lack of population; they don't seem like more normal strategies.

So the conclusion we draw from this is that with the Scandinavians, you can build a colonial empire, but following more defined strategies than if you play with Sardinia-Piedmont or two Sicilies.

Now I'm going to start a game with Sweden and try to build a colonial empire. The first thing I'll do is conquer northern Borneo (before the Dutch East Indies do), then conquer Benin, Dahomey, and Oyo (so the other powers don't take them away from me), and then part of Ethiopia. Later, I'll conquer Gaza (once they've built a port), and the Transvaal and Orange when the British no longer guarantee them.

I hope to do all this in less than six years.

 

[Carlux]

I dont think i agree to that.

i do like strategy's that revolve aroudn making a synergetic comon market with dependancy. Basically as Sweden i would make Ethopia my vassal and preferably release it as my vassal with my tech after i have researched pumpjacks. What this will allow me to do is to make the Swedish poppulation move away from farming and many other industries to focus primarely on mining, as Etheopia does not have any minerals at all and will want to buy a lot of them, but the thing is also that tEthopia can have loads of plantations and as a result it can have a huge engines demand which can be another pretty worthwhile industry to be strong in if you can stack a lot of engines factories in a good mining province. Throughput modifiers on minerals like coal and iron already allow steel to be produced cheaper especially with a company which can furthermore make an engines company quite a thing. These industries can achieve great productivity per worker and employ loads of engineers and mechanics which is good, youll be richer usually for having all your pop into mining rather than when they would all be in farming. Granted you will want diesel pumps, that means you will also want lots of oil, and later on you also will want rubber to churn out a lot of cars from those engines factories too and dominate the car market.

I mean, thats one way to play it, and you can add more similar dependant markets beyond just Etheopia that will demand ever more minerals, steel, tools and engines. You can really pump the GDP per capita with those industries if you have the nessecary resources comming from colonies as Sweden. late game engines and car market can be pretty large and really make a country strong if its dominant in its exports but thats easier done too if you can have dependant markets that already demand so much that you need to stack the factory's and gain a lot of extra troughput trough it too.

Do you know how to get an open port in China and Japan while playing as Sweden or a smaller nation? I don't know if there's a trick or something.