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Iwo Jima

Veni! Vidi! Calculi!
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Mar 3, 2009
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If we talk about refitting italian BBs and CAs, what is better for them?

You can choose +20 armor(CRDA MIO) or -20% to visibility and 10% to speed (CNA MIO).
Also, you could get inside CRDA +10% HA, +5% H. Piercing or +5% HA, +10% H. Piercing.

Does anybody calculate profits or has some rational thoughts about this.
 
-visibility and +speed stop you being hit in the first place.
+armour allows you to survive being hit but does require you to repair in dock.

I'm not sure of the hit profile / piercing profile of your intended opponents to give a precise answer.
 
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Without testing or calculations, I tend to lean heavily towards visibility/speed for higher survivability, and prefer heavy attack to piercing. As long as armor is higher than piercing, the effect of more armor isn't nearly as effective as avoiding hits (and vice versa, doing more damage with HA is better than doing more damage with HA to targets with higher armor than piercing, but less to targets with low armor).

Tl;dr, armor lowers damage, vis/speed avoids damage. Piercing increases non-pen damage, HA increases all damage (unless 5% more piercing is enough to breach armor and enable critical hits, which is worth a lot but usually unlikely).
 
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It's always visibility. Visibility gets better the more reductions you have, since it's a negative modifier that stacks with other sources. Combine MIO visibility with the special project visibility reduction for SHBB along with visibility from a concealment expert admiral (and destroyer leader if you have that too) and the night fighting officer corps spirit. It's basically an exponential increase to the effective health of your ships.
 
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If we talk about refitting italian BBs and CAs, what is better for them?

You can choose +20 armor(CRDA MIO) or -20% to visibility and 10% to speed (CNA MIO).
Also, you could get inside CRDA +10% HA, +5% H. Piercing or +5% HA, +10% H. Piercing.

Does anybody calculate profits or has some rational thoughts about this.

If we are speaking about MIOs (and MIOs only), I always go for CRDA when producing battleships / cruisers (which is what I build the most in my runs as Italy). With the Modernize Northern Industry you get an extra +10% production output and you also get a +3% boost to naval output (I believe) from Danielli Industrial concern (also with Modernize Northern Industry), so I skip CNA MIO completely. Specially useful for me because I always go for FIAT (tanks + airplanes), which also gets bonus from Modernize Northern Industry (pratically all the tanks+airplane producers are locked behind Northern Industries, with the exception of 2 - for carrier airplanes and for medium airplanes, which frankly are largely irrelevant for me as Italy).

For CRDA I always go for armor, but not at the cost of production speed. I prefer to go for 5% armor instead of the 15% armor bonus (that also gives +5% production costs) because of this.

CNA could be useful if you are going for Modernize the Mezzogiorno focus, otherwise its a big skip. And even if you go for Mezzogiorno, you have to ask yourself if Navalmecannica isn't better. It gives a flat HP bonus as well as armor, similar to CRDA.

The +10% production bonus is just too big to miss, specially when other MIOs (tank+airplanes) are also locked behind northern industries. +3% to naval output from Danielli is just the cherry on top, but its better than nothing, and you also get a similar +3% factory output. The other industrial concerns are largely irrelevant for me.

--------------------------

In resume:

- Pick CRDA if you are Modernizing Northern Industries. Don't sacrifice production costs for some extra armor. Similarly, don't sacrifice production costs for a bit of extra piercing.
- Pick CNA if you are Modernizing the Mezzogiorno.
- I always prefer to Modernize Northern Industries, so CRDA is the option I see best (and therefore extra armor instead of visibility or speed, IN THIS CASE)
 
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It seems to be possible to use CNA in ship design, and then use CRDA to confer production bonuses. But CNA will not earn funds, leveling will be tied to technology research.

It's hard to find a balance. So I usually ignore CNA.
 
If we are speaking about MIOs (and MIOs only), I always go for CRDA when producing battleships / cruisers (which is what I build the most in my runs as Italy). With the Modernize Northern Industry you get an extra +10% production output and you also get a +3% boost to naval output (I believe) from Danielli Industrial concern (also with Modernize Northern Industry), so I skip CNA MIO completely. Specially useful for me because I always go for FIAT (tanks + airplanes), which also gets bonus from Modernize Northern Industry (pratically all the tanks+airplane producers are locked behind Northern Industries, with the exception of 2 - for carrier airplanes and for medium airplanes, which frankly are largely irrelevant for me as Italy).

For CRDA I always go for armor, but not at the cost of production speed. I prefer to go for 5% armor instead of the 15% armor bonus (that also gives +5% production costs) because of this.

CNA could be useful if you are going for Modernize the Mezzogiorno focus, otherwise its a big skip. And even if you go for Mezzogiorno, you have to ask yourself if Navalmecannica isn't better. It gives a flat HP bonus as well as armor, similar to CRDA.

The +10% production bonus is just too big to miss, specially when other MIOs (tank+airplanes) are also locked behind northern industries. +3% to naval output from Danielli is just the cherry on top, but its better than nothing, and you also get a similar +3% factory output. The other industrial concerns are largely irrelevant for me.

--------------------------

In resume:

- Pick CRDA if you are Modernizing Northern Industries. Don't sacrifice production costs for some extra armor. Similarly, don't sacrifice production costs for a bit of extra piercing.
- Pick CNA if you are Modernizing the Mezzogiorno.
- I always prefer to Modernize Northern Industries, so CRDA is the option I see best (and therefore extra armor instead of visibility or speed, IN THIS CASE)
Bonjorno, italian expert))

Yes, you right in your logic. But I played Italia too long and I dont always go for Modernize Industry brunch. It always pain, what to choose in Italian Tree. A lot of different paths, all have smth good.

CNA has one BIG advantage - it works for all types of vessels. So, it gives bonuses and level up much faster. When CNA has level 6 (and you can buy additional bonus), CRDA would be level 4 or even 3. Also, CNA bonuses are very sweet, as shown above comments.

Another point - fleet production not so important. And important what fleet you have when war begins. So, I build only new SS and refit old ships. That's my program. Its usunally enough to beat UK in Mediterranean in complex with army and airforce.

On the other hand, me (personally) like CRDA more. I like make heavy armored ships and refit 0 armor CL toward armored with highest armor level. And yes, Northern Industry also sweet focus for this strat. (You could also change your trade law to get +5% (or even +10%) to dock prod and get adviser Ricci from High Council, who gives another +5%)
 
...and get adviser Ricci from High Council, who gives another +5%)

You can also attribute Ricci's bonus directly to Mussolini, in this case you do not waste a political advisor slot. Its what I do if I keep Il Duce around, which is again, what I do in most of my games. No game as Fascist Italy really feels like a good experience without Il Duce.

You can also combine a lot of other factors like Incrociatori Pesanti / Incrociatori Leggeri but these come so late during early naval race they are largely irrelevant in my book (you will be trying to improve industry / land units while completing political focus - I rarely have time for air / naval focus apart from the 35 days focus that give a lot of dockyards). Pre-For Blood Alone DLC, I also used Naval Production Focus from Continuous Focus. +20% extra naval dockyard is huge. All of them combined can provide a serious advantage specially for battlecruisers / super heavy battleships. You will be producing them much faster, and these ships usually take ages to produce.

Don't forget concentrated / dispersed industry tech either! Each tech level gives a flat +10% production bonus, and full 100% stability can also give +20% production bonus.

So, I build only new SS and refit old ships. That's my program. Its usunally enough to beat UK in Mediterranean in complex with army and airforce.

On the other hand, me (personally) like CRDA more. I like make heavy armored ships and refit 0 armor CL toward armored with highest armor level.

I rarely refit ships nowadays. Its rarely a good thing, but if you are smart with the pieces you are refitting, and keep costs low, its good. Don't replace stuff like engines and armor, as it will increase costs so much it won't make sense. Its much better to build a new ship in such a case, because you keep the old one... and get a new one... In terms of production / time wasted / raw combat points, its what makes sense. If you upgrade a Zara class ship (which has level 2 armor) to level 3 armor for instance you will be paying something like +3500 production. Which is insane for a refit that provides such a miserable combat advantage. Its pratically 70% of the price of a proper light cruiser!

I also rarely fight in the mediterranean. In many games I declare war on Yugoslavia in early 1937 before France revokes guarantees. Paradrop a few divisions across French cities right in the first week of the war, and France instantly capitulates. What you get is pratically all of french holdings... AND... the french fleet. HA. Now you can put them to proper use and show the brits who has the most powerful fleet in the world! Also you can puppet Czechslovakia and annex Austria while you are at it, and prepare for a direct showdown with Hitler - in order to show that the Duce will not tolerate being in 2nd place!

As for CLs - I have to confess but in general I rarely do CLs with a lot of heavy armor. In many case scenarios, you lack the steel so lvl 1 armor is enough, specially since you are trading speed and production costs for a tiny bump in armor and hp. If you got steel, go ahead. As long as the cruiser is not naked, its good already in my book. Cruiser armor is always small so heavy attacks will always pierce it. Therefore, Cruiser armor is largely just to prevent light attacks from destroyers, so any armor will do. I don't know if naval battles changed, but this used to be the case years ago. Most of the real damage will be sustained by the battleships. Thats partially why I don't go crazy with battleships / super heavy battleships and add more than 2-3 heavy turrets. You want these ships mostly for the big hp / armor values (they will be in most cases the primary targets so more targets to soak damage - the longer your cruisers can operate).

There are many opinions on the topic of course. But just like in the past amongst theorists, one thing still holds true. These ships are irrelevant in many cases during a war, and a huge investment in money / production costs. You cannot take land with ships, for instance, and in many cases they will just end up somewhere like Scapa Flow. In the pocket of some... british empire... Or as the new home/hideout of some fish!

CNA has one BIG advantage - it works for all types of vessels. So, it gives bonuses and level up much faster. When CNA has level 6 (and you can buy additional bonus), CRDA would be level 4 or even 3. Also, CNA bonuses are very sweet, as shown above comments.

You are right with CNA, but who cares about destroyers and submarines (carriers are not even part of the equation because per major fleet you are only using 4 or something like that). These ships (destroyers, subs) rarely need bonus. And as Italy you are probably going for mass production instead of good quality. So bonus for these become pratically irrelevant, since you will be replacing them in quick order, at least its what I do. I always find mass production submarines (as long as you have range to operate near Cape Verde / Canarias / Azores, where I usually keep subs raiding) much better, and for escort duty, you will probably also want numbers instead of quality vessels as well.

CRDA gives bonus to all cruisers and to battleships. What else do you want? These will be (or should be) the main fighting force. You don't fight fleets with submarines or destroyers. You fight them with light cruisers (for mass light dmg), heavy cruisers (when you want less production costs and heavy attack) or battlecruisers / battleships (for mass hp / armor / heavy attack). So the bonus are given to the ones that need them (carriers are obviously also important but you don't spam build those as stated previously).

The only real advantage is that you level it up faster, but you shouldn't be over producing destroyers / submarines early game, in any case. Focusing on a couple of carriers and/or on light cruisers (or on completing many of the ships already queued on game start) is what most countries should do. Refit is also genius if you are smart with it, but it requires micromanagement (oh god so many ship classes!) and I rarely have patience nowadays for that.

In some cases you can also go for super heavy battleships, but the countries capable of doing them (without great sacrifice) are the exception and not the norm. Super Heavy Battleships were already hard to produce in the past, but after paradox decided to lock them behind a secret project that requires a specific facility and hard-to-obtain points to conclude, they are usually not viable to pursue early on. Also these (or similar) capital ships require a lot of steel / chromium, so unless you steal these from someone else, like Yugoslavia / France, be prepared to pay the price.

It will depend on your playstyle or if you want to try something new. In the past, I also went with panzerschiff (for example) for raiding, and I was really perplexed at their capability. Their mass range allows you to place them deep in the atlantic, but you will need to produce a decent amount of panzerschiffs in order to have sucess (and also to keep an eye in case the main british fleets comes hunting you and you need to retreat manually, which might be a hard thing to do if you are running the game at max level 5 speed all the time). But why go for panzerschiff if you can go for carriers + cruisers/capitals and beat the uk's fleet on a man-to-man fight directly. In many cases you don't even need to build a single ship, because AI is AI. I gave the example of panzerschiff but I could give many others as well - at the end of the day it might not be the best option available, but it sure is gratifying.
 
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It's always visibility. Visibility gets better the more reductions you have, since it's a negative modifier that stacks with other sources. Combine MIO visibility with the special project visibility reduction for SHBB along with visibility from a concealment expert admiral (and destroyer leader if you have that too) and the night fighting officer corps spirit. It's basically an exponential increase to the effective health of your ships.
Dear God, I can't believe it! There are people on this forum who know how to play this game! Heaven knows, I already thought that the IQ of the entire forum here would hardly allow them to take off their pants before pissing!

To the topic starter: please don't listen to geniuses who advise you to choose MIO for armor and heavy attack. Raiding Fleet MIO for reducing visibility is an absolute imba since the MIO system was introduced.

The specific ratio of MIOs looks something like this:
"Raiding fleet" MIO : "Battle Line Ship Builders" = 1 : 1,5-1,6.
 
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Dear God, I can't believe it! There are people on this forum who know how to play this game! Heaven knows, I already thought that the IQ of the entire forum here would hardly allow them to take off their pants before pissing!

To the topic starter: please don't listen to geniuses who advise you to choose MIO for armor and heavy attack. Raiding Fleet MIO for reducing visibility is an absolute imba since the MIO system was introduced.

The specific ratio of MIOs looks something like this:
"Raiding fleet" MIO : "Battle Line Ship Builders" = 1 : 1,5-1,6.

No one questions these.

But fact is, you will be missing the bonus from production either from ship production, tank production, or air production, plus from most Industrial concerns, depending on your choice. We are specifically speaking of Italy. For a normal nation, I would probably agree with you.

And we are speaking of a +10% flat bonus to production, in some cases, across more than 1 specific type of equipment, not just ships.

If the fleet has been properly made, you will be barely losing a ship in any case. A bit of extra armor, or visibility is irrelevant. What matters is the raw production.
 
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Is it a good idea to watching where you have the most fights? The only problem region for capitals in the mediterranean is the adriatic sea. That mean fjord and archipelagos. I am not 100% shure if there are armor then better if you have more of this regions or want to set up a trap there?


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No one questions these.

But fact is, you will be missing the bonus from production either from ship production, tank production, or air production, plus from most Industrial concerns, depending on your choice. We are specifically speaking of Italy. For a normal nation, I would probably agree with you.

And we are speaking of a +10% flat bonus to production, in some cases, across more than 1 specific type of equipment, not just ships.

If the fleet has been properly made, you will be barely losing a ship in any case. A bit of extra armor, or visibility is irrelevant. What matters is the raw production.
This is partly true, but there is an important point: choosing the Raider Fleet MIO will allow you to build fewer ships.

Also, I don't understand why you don't think that choosing the Raider Fleet MIO will not give you 10% production. You will have to modernize southern Italy, but you will get 10% production.

Also, counting a 10% production bonus as a pure 10% is not entirely correct. The bonus is additive, not multiplicative.

Let's simulate the situation:
we need to refit Italy's battleships. Today, we are in 1937. We have researched the second-level technology "concentrated/dispersed industry", 100% stability and have the naval spirit "refit yards". In addition, we quickly went through the "foreign policy" focus branch and took the national spirit "Italy's Destiny". All of this gives +75% to the productivity of our shipyards.
At this point we start refitting the battleship. Another 5% build speed bonus from MIO itself would give us a real bonus of 2.8% (since it's not multiplicative)... too little in my opinion.
 
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No one questions these.

But fact is, you will be missing the bonus from production either from ship production, tank production, or air production, plus from most Industrial concerns, depending on your choice. We are specifically speaking of Italy. For a normal nation, I would probably agree with you.

And we are speaking of a +10% flat bonus to production, in some cases, across more than 1 specific type of equipment, not just ships.

If the fleet has been properly made, you will be barely losing a ship in any case. A bit of extra armor, or visibility is irrelevant. What matters is the raw production.
I think the most important idea can be described as follows:

A ship built with a "Raiders Fleet" MIO is equal to 1.5 ships built with a "battle line" MIO. Therefore, the bonus to construction from "battle line" MIO should be, roughly speaking, at least 80%, in order to give a real bonus of about 50% in productivity.
15% to productivity (let's assume that we categorically refuse to modernize southern Italy for some reason) will give a real bonus of about 9-10%. This is not enough to cover the 50% better combat qualities of the ships provided by the Raiders Fleet MIO.

The refit of the Italian battleships to 3 heavy tier III guns, secondary guns, tier II FCS and radar would take about 345 days, I think. So he could start the refit in mid-'38 and still be ready by the start of the war, even without the extra production bonuses.
 
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Dear God, I can't believe it! There are people on this forum who know how to play this game! Heaven knows, I already thought that the IQ of the entire forum here would hardly allow them to take off their pants before pissing!
I have 5k hours including a decent bit of multiplayer, I'd hope I know how to play the game by now. That being said, I don't really think it helps anyone to mock people who don't know any better.
 
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This is partly true, but there is an important point: choosing the Raider Fleet MIO will allow you to build fewer ships.

Also, I don't understand why you don't think that choosing the Raider Fleet MIO will not give you 10% production. You will have to modernize southern Italy, but you will get 10% production.

Also, counting a 10% production bonus as a pure 10% is not entirely correct. The bonus is additive, not multiplicative.

Let's simulate the situation:
we need to refit Italy's battleships. Today, we are in 1937. We have researched the second-level technology "concentrated/dispersed industry", 100% stability and have the naval spirit "refit yards". In addition, we quickly went through the "foreign policy" focus branch and took the national spirit "Italy's Destiny". All of this gives +75% to the productivity of our shipyards.
At this point we start refitting the battleship. Another 5% build speed bonus from MIO itself would give us a real bonus of 2.8% (since it's not multiplicative)... too little in my opinion.

If you "Modernize the Mezzogiorno" to get that 10% production output for Raiding Fleet MIO, you will be missing 10% production for tanks, all material equipment, and probably for airplanes too, unless you are doing carrier airplanes / medium airplanes / transport airplanes. I don't really see why would someone prefer to pick up "Modernize the Mezzogiorno" to be honest (on a single player game).

CRDA also gives 5% production output to capital and cruisers ships at lvl 0 (right at game start). More relevant is that the +5% production output from the raiding MIO (CNA) is at the very bottom of the tree, which means that by the time you get it, its vastly irrelevant (its just a +5% after all) and you probably already conquered half of europe or more. So for most equations we can't even count for it.

I don't understand your logic where you are saying the bonus is additive and not multiplicative.

A dockyard provides 2.5 production output.
A +60% (2.5x0.6=1.5) increase will mean that this same dockyard will be producing 4.0 (2.5+1.5).
2 dockyards at 0% will be producing 5 (2.5+2.5) production output. 2 dockyard at +60% will be producing 8 (4+4) production output.

Also you are giving survivability a great importance on a single player game vs AI. What about the raw attack power difference? CRDA's lvl 2 heavy battery will be able to pierce lvl 2 BB (which is what the AI will have on its strongest ships at the very best in most situations when war erupts) without problem for instance (only CRDA and Navalmecannica provide extra piercing). Also CRDA LVL 3 battlecruiser armor is superior to LVL 2 CNA battleship armor (with the bonus of being cheaper to produce). And higher armor by itself allows more attacks, if you decide to go nuts with it. Also light batteries are stronger on CRDA than on CNA whatever decision you decide to pick. And this without even speaking about AA power or even the flat +10% hp bonus.

We can speak about the usefulness of one MIO vs the other MIO in terms of combat, but I bet these things have been spoken over and over again. The difference is, we are speaking about Italy in here and taking production bonus in consideration. I wouldn't sacrifice land production bonus + air + naval production (which is what matters) for some miserable visibility on a single player game, specially since its countered a good deal with the other bonus the CRDA provides.

I have 5k hours including a decent bit of multiplayer, I'd hope I know how to play the game by now. That being said, I don't really think it helps anyone to mock people who don't know any better.

For multiplayer many strategies are different, it always tends to be on those games made by Paradox. I never played any HOI4-MP but just by seeing the raw power of the USA, I suppose all enemies will prefer survivability without thinking twice. But its single player, and the AI rarely has any brains. I rarely lose any ship and when I do its the outdated scrap I started the game with. Or the low cost DD / submarine that is constantly being replaced (and that doesn't even make up for the main battle force).
 
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Dear God, I can't believe it! There are people on this forum who know how to play this game! Heaven knows, I already thought that the IQ of the entire forum here would hardly allow them to take off their pants before pissing!
This is a little needlessly over the top...

The average redditor, however, doesn't know that mud exists as a gameplay mechanic ;)
 
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This is a little needlessly over the top...

The average redditor, however, doesn't know that mud exists as a gameplay mechanic ;)

Well, might as well advise the thread creator to forget about his question and instead focus on mass fleet subs with tiles.

Crazy visibility, crazy production costs, crazy results. As if there was only a single way to play HOI4. Which isn't what I advocate. Specially against the AI... pu-lease.
 
Well, might as well advise the thread creator to forget about his question and instead focus on mass fleet subs with tiles.

Crazy visibility, crazy production costs, crazy results. As if there was only a single way to play HOI4. Which isn't what I advocate. Specially against the AI... pu-lease.

You know with what I said, one thing came to my mind. A few months ago I actually conquered France before ww2 started and then capitulated the UK shortly after ww2 started, as Iceland. Without a single fleet. Could have went on a WC as well if I wanted, but prefered to stop due to boredom (and because I had other cheevos to complete).

Similarly, I also capitulated the allies with land locked countries like Czechslovakia and Hungary years ago when pursuing certain achievements like Czechmate. Without a single fleet.

What I want to say is simple. You can even advocate this or that fleet template and I can end the conversation and tell you: you don't even need 1. In most case scenarios you don't even need to combat the enemy fleet. Like Sun Tzu said:

To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.

And since someone spoke about playtime or if people posting actually played the game, I got over +4000 hours and almost all achievements / badges completed for the game. Link to my steam profile (with playtime, screenshots, achievements completed, etc etc) can be seen to the left side of this comment, right below my nickname (or on my forum signature) if you doubt what I am saying.
 
Also you are giving survivability a great importance on a single player game vs AI. What about the raw attack power difference?
The longer your ships survive, the more damage they deal. The best offense is a good defense as far as HoI4 navy mechanics go. You don't get more relative heavy attack the more you stack, but you do get effectively more visibility. If you go from 100% visibility to 90%, your ship has 10% less visibility than before. If you go from 50% to 40%, your ship has 20% less than before. It only makes sense to go for visibility in as many places as you can, because every point of reduction is better than the last.
 
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The longer your ships survive, the more damage they deal.

If I barely lose a ship on single player, without focusing on visibility, and while using death stacks, do you think survivability will matter in this case? I do not. Which is the point (why give even more survivability to something that is already resilient on single player?).

Also you aren't taking in consideration that the enemy ships can retreat, and in this case, higher DPS is better.
 
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