Psionic Themes in Shadows of the Shroud

[Thiend]

To begin with, some context.

Before any of the ascensions were updated, Psionic had the best thematic depth - mostly because it had any at all, narrow in focus as it was/is.

Now, Machines can go for a variety of themes, from nanomachines, physical holograms, or just pure improvement of their basic form. They can have unique ships from Nanotech specifically.

Cybernetic has a little less than that, but it still has a strong authoritarian/egalitarian thematic choice.

New Genetic ascension looks to have something between the two - not as harsh changes as the three machine ascensions, but very solid variety.

This brings me back to Psionic. I'm encouraged by a lot of what I see in the store page and the announcement descriptions, including psionic ships if that's what is implied by the DLC having new ships but there's plenty more besides even if that isn't what you mean. I also like the sound of more shroud patron variety and more interactions with them/the shroud. Most of my balance and QoL problems with current Psionic are irrelevant pending the update because the mechanics with which I have problems are likely remade from the ground up. However...

Psionic will, in the themes, at least that we can absolutely confirm, still always be going for patrons in the shroud. The biggest failure of Psionic currently is that it is both thematically and mechanically tied too closely to Spiritualist and Authoritarian ethics. This is present in the God-Emperor event, civic and government transformation, the unnatural synergy with Holy Covenants specifically, the fact that robots are strongly disincentivized for Spiritualist and don't work with any of the job output bonuses Psionic gets, and the fact that Psionic attraction to Spiritualist will massively penalize your economy if you don't have Spiritualist in your governing ethics. There are more current problems, but as my point is proven I'll stop at what I've listed here and the covenants themselves, which crowbar your empire thematically into Warhammer 40K Chaos.

Will Psionic be getting non-patron paths? Non-God-Emperor paths? Both? The Shroud is neutral enough to the overall theme, but those in particular drastically cut down on your thematic options. Currently, Psionic is ALWAYS a de facto religion centering around one of four patrons plus the God-Emperor (at least, without leaving a massive portion of the ascensions' already underwhelming power unused, and it being possible only in that way in SotS would be rather disappointing). I would like some new themes that are at minimum not subservient to shroud entities. Having paths within or alternatives to the God-Emperor event that don't have a specifically Authoritarian-Imperialist requirement would also be rather nice. But that last bit, as with most of my other complaints with current Psionic, is largely irrelevant pending more details - the patron pact part is highly relevant.

Will we be getting more options, or are we still stuck with shroud patrons as our only path to progress?

 

[Silens]

For those who don't know what the features will be, here's the current product page on Steam.

While it's of course not final, it sets a theme, namely that the devs understand the psionic Ascension rework as more of the same: more covenants, nothing else.

Why is it important to talk about it now? Because the release is set for Q3, and late June to early August is summer break in Sweden. Work on this expansion is already on its way, and this is now likely the last chance to get any additions or changes done before the content is fully set in stone. I'm not even sure if it isn't already too late actually.

According to Stellaris lore, the Shroud entities are manifestations of collective Zroni feelings. They're basically creations; while powerful, they're on the same authority level as Leviathans: old/ancient beings that are powerful, but certainly not a god. Imagine the other Ascension paths would force you to venerate an old machine, i.e. Machine Ascension forcing you to accept the Infinity Engine as your god, with no alternative, and forcing a specific ethic on you in the process?

I want more than just this one single psionic path. Every other Ascension gets shiny alternatives, interesting alternatives at that, different from each other. Yet there is nothing new for psionic, just covenants? I find it hard to believe that this, of all the possible things in this game, is the extent of the devs' creativity.

 

[A2ch0n]

I have high hopes in that shroud panel. I guess it can go in two directons (maybe there ia a third axis, namely the patron one). I would compare it to Paragon/Renegade Points (yes a Mass Effect reference).

Gaining points in one will most likely reduce the other (equally?). Until reaching a certain threshold we will unlock different abilities. Both will give some kind of auras or maybe even active abilities like the astral thread actions from the Astral Planes dlc. The "good" path would most likely aim at calming conflicts, soothing shroud storms, mending relations and so on. The "evil" one will most likely do the opposite.

The Patrons (axis?) is most likely outside of that mechanik. Sure, the Patrons in their actual (40k referenced) state are more on the evil side but either there is a possibility to get them on a more benevolent way or we get another set of patrons that are more friendly.

Like @Thiend said, i would like a additional option to decouple psionic Ascension and Origins from spiritualism. Yes, it's very fitting for that what it is actually and hell i would miss something without my god-emperor (maybe my most favourite trope in the psionic path) but there are a lot of Sci-fi tropes where psionics are explained by the direkt power of the mind. Even without any spirituaism or at least with a scientific approach even if there is a realm of psi powers. Naming Star Trek, Perry Rhodan or even Babylon 5 as some old examples here.

On the wishlist are some civics that allow some tropes without shroud gods too. Something that resembles Jedi/Sith or similar tropes, or something like the "Ghost" Program from Star Craft. Many opprtunities here. But i guess we won't get any hints before the releasedate getting closer.

 

[Tannhäuser Cake]

I, for one, still think that a shedding of material bodies (i.e. becoming "living energy") should be a path within psionics. It could also fit well with a more sciencey and less spiritual perspective; where Engineering has mechanical transformation, and Society has biological transformation, Physics (if psionics are finally moved there) could have energy transformation. Where mechanical ascension thinks "the flesh is weak" and biological ascension thinks "the flesh is strong", energy/psionic ascension could take the position "there is no flesh". Just like there is no spoon.

I also think we should face a choice between mind, matter and time/space manipulation. Telepathy, telekinesis and precognition, to name a few examples of psionics, are quite different phenomena in fiction, and rarely occur at the same time - at least not strongly.

It could even be possible to ascend beyond the need for material starships, where a sufficient control of external and/or internal environments would allow a crew to generate and link forcefields in a manner that functions similar to a starship. Except that it is built with Unity rather than Alloys or Food, possibly either transparent or as opaque as a black hole, and has no/minimal hull or armour and instead gets immense shields. (This type of "starship" could arguably be available for powerful telekinetics, powerful time/space warpers, and energy beings - just not those who focus too much on telepathy. The shroud could, however, be available to all psionics - albeit perhaps with slightly different means of access depending on the chosen main psionic branch.)

Psionic ascension for machines also seems fair, so they too can finally have a ghost in the shell.

Edit 1:
We are also long overdue for an "iconoclast" society type / permanent civic that is about putting an end to all AI everywhere. A "Determined Exterminator", except by the living against the machines. This one should also not require Spiritualist ethics, since there can be many other perfectly reasonable reasons to desire the extermination of all AI - and all robots too, just to be on the safe side.

Edit 2:
Psionic Death Cults should have a sacrificial edict for turning pops into Zro?
Death Cults should get a covenant sacrificial edict?

Edit 3:
"Psionic AI" technology, for those who have developed both Psionic Theory and AI technology?
(Especially since the psionic technologies already reflect most other Physics types of technologies, but not yet this one. Lore-wise it could be either an AI with psionic abilities, or "trapped" psionic energy with AI abilities, or intentionally vague as to which begets the other.)

Edit 4:
While ethereal/energy species could eat Energy, it might be interesting if they would instead eat Unity. Or at least, if there was a powerful edict where that was the case. Perhaps while ethereal/energy beings became unable to produce it themselves (via jobs and factions alike), making them need biological Unity producers / worshippers (reference to the Ori of the Stargate series).

• Edit 4a: This could perhaps even be extended to psionic beings in general, in unequal societies; an elite caste of powerful psionics that gain greater psionic power from the subservience and worship of those they dominate. The edict might not even require that the psionics are the main species.
• Edit 4b: This could be complemented with the ability to extract Unity from vassals as tribute, and perhaps even a new vassal specialist type.
• Edit 4c: A new origin could even be based on the concept, where a small group of psionic aliens have become the elite of a world mostly populated by sentient natives. The psionic aliens would not necessarily be the main species of the empire. This origin might also be "given" to pre-FTL species by rogue scientists who fancy the idea of ruling over others like god-emperors.

Edit 5:
An alternative to, or variant of, going for energy ascension could also involve the use of golems / puppet bodies to "house the psionic essence" or interact with physical reality. This alternative could range from forceful manipulation of crude matter to the use of synthetic bodies, provided that the necessary technology is available. Basically, psionic beings could use physical avatars that do not need to follow the normal rules of life, and therefore would not need to make biological or mechanical sense and could challenge the sense of reality of those who see them. The physical forms would be conduits/anchors for the true, indescribable form, and could include such alternatives as a pyramid with a shining eye, a monolith with the proportions 1:4:9 (lithoid preference?), eye-covered (cog)wheels within (cog)wheels surrounded by a burning halo (machine preference?), a micro-singularity that bends light around it, Borromean rings, Penrose triangles, et cetera.

Edit 6:
Void Clouds desperately need to be included in (the free update that goes along with) a psionic DLC. They have now slipped past both the space fauna DLC and the space weather DLC without being included in either. At the very least, migratory Void Clouds should be added; hopefully, they could also get a midgame crisis where they grow out of control.

• Edit 6a: more Void Cloud suggestions

Edit 7:
Divine Sovereign could be made a unique government type, rather than a civic. It could also be an incompatible alternative to the shroud patrons, as some have suggested while referencing 40,000 unspecified reasons.

Edit 8:
Entering the Shroud should cost Unity, not Energy Credits

Edit 9:
All ascension paths should have a policy option for dealing with those not yet ascended in the same manner as the empire: leave as free residents, assimilate, enslave, or purge/displace (depending on ethics et cetera). Perhaps also an option for allowing them to be citizens, though I think it could be incredibly difficult to function as a full citizen of a psionic, cybernetic, synthetic or genetic ascension society where you do not share the ascension.

• Edit 9a: A variant of this could be that having a main species with an ascension trait unlocks civics normally not available, that would instead mediate the effects of the suggested policy setting.

Edit 10:
Energy form ascension could have one portrait corresponding to each other portrait category, similar to how machine portraits have representations for the other groups. This would mean that the humanoid energy portrait is already in the game. There could also be a conservative option where a species could opt to keep its old portrait, which then becomes semi-transparent.

Edit 11:
Instead of shroud covenants automatically encompassing the entire population, they could start out as patron-specific factions that can be suppressed or embraced, and the covenant effects (both good and bad) could also scale with the level of support / political power held by the covenant patron's faction.

Edit 12:
More Shrouded World interactions, not available to normal empires. Possibilities include the ability to de-shroud them, colonize them, create them (possibly via a new Colossus weapon that can only target habitable worlds), extract resources from them (Zro?), consecrate them, use them as entry and/or exit points for a new FTL travel mode (and/or as facilitators of long-range psionic jumps), et cetera.

 

[Lazy Name]

I personally like the Shroud Entities as key to Psionic Ascension, I'd simply like a greater variety of flavors. Perhaps some who don't want to be worshipped, some who are less one intelligent entity and more an emergent phenomenon, some who form more symbiotic relationships but grant less immediate power. Part of the point of the Shroud is that it's something you can't just understand and conquer like the other Ascensions, but that doesn't mean subservience is the only choice.

 

[Thiend]

I personally like the Shroud Entities as key to Psionic Ascension, I'd simply like a greater variety of flavors. Perhaps some who don't want to be worshipped, some who are less one intelligent entity and more an emergent phenomenon, some who form more symbiotic relationships but grant less immediate power. Part of the point of the Shroud is that it's something you can't just understand and conquer like the other Ascensions, but that doesn't mean subservience is the only choice.

That could work, if implemented well. The presence of entities in the shroud isn't strictly an issue, it being all subservience pacts is. Interacting with them in different ways sounds good to me - symbiotic, subservient, hostile, etc.

 

[Halberdier King]

Yeah, I am a bit concerned about being too patron focused. Like, it's not a dealbreaker for me, as I am pretty willing to ignore the games lore in favor of my own, but it would be nice to have nonpatron options.

The god emperor is definitely a no go for my mostly egalitarian empires though.

 

[cryptkeeper]

Yeah, I am a bit concerned about being too patron focused. Like, it's not a dealbreaker for me, as I am pretty willing to ignore the games lore in favor of my own, but it would be nice to have nonpatron options.

The god emperor is definitely a no go for my mostly egalitarian empires though.

Most egalitarian governments honestly would likely never ascend like we do in stellaris, it would be individual choose. The conformity almost required by these ascensions kinda is anti egalitarian.

 

[Thiend]

Yeah, I am a bit concerned about being too patron focused. Like, it's not a dealbreaker for me, as I am pretty willing to ignore the games lore in favor of my own, but it would be nice to have nonpatron options.

The god emperor is definitely a no go for my mostly egalitarian empires though.

The current version is a nonstarter for a lot of empires.

It forces authoritarian-spiritualist-imperial. In the process, it removes civics that aren't allowed for those ethics. This means that any empire NOT desiring to be spiritualist has virtually no chance of removing the ethic, and even just the Authoritarian ethic is difficult to remove because the spiritualist faction of a God-Emperor psionic empire will absorb all others rapidly.

Even worse, it removes all civics that aren't allowed for the new ethics and authority... such as locked civics, which you'll never be able to get back even if you manage to fix your governing ethics.

 

[Trigaea]

A non-patron route would be ideal.

I look at one of the default spiritualist empires like the Scyldari and have a hard time imagining these peace-loving hippie critters worshiping an extradimensional Warp Shroud deity.

 

[Silens]

I personally like the Shroud Entities as key to Psionic Ascension, I'd simply like a greater variety of flavors. Perhaps some who don't want to be worshipped, some who are less one intelligent entity and more an emergent phenomenon, some who form more symbiotic relationships but grant less immediate power. Part of the point of the Shroud is that it's something you can't just understand and conquer like the other Ascensions, but that doesn't mean subservience is the only choice.

Well, if that is what you like, I wouldn't want to take it away from you. This here is about more options, not about taking anything away.

When I read the lore, I understand that the Shroud is not something mysterious. It's just an additional dimension the Zroni found in a raw proto state. They formed it, inhabited it, their thoughts became real, to the point of their collective feelings taking on the form of what we now know as the Shroud entities. Even the End of the Cycle was created in the Zroni civil war as a weapon.

All the Shroud entities are just man-made. They're constructs, elaborate dimensional machines. And in the words of beloved Commander Shepard: "You're not even alive! Not really. You're just a machine, and machines can be broken!"

The point is that the Shroud isn't heaven or hell or the afterlife, where the souls of the dead go and where gods reside. It's just one plane of many, which you can enter either with your mind or your body, same way actually you enter all the Astral Rifts. There's no spiritual component to it, if you don't want to attach one.

Cosmogenesis actually allows this, it's the ending you get for entering the central black hole. You enter the Shroud here, without a patron, solely based on your personal achievements. Technology lets you overcome everything in this game. We don't need patrons patronizing us, we're perfectly capable on our own.

 

[Lazy Name]

You enter the Shroud here, without a patron, solely based on your personal achievements. Technology lets you overcome everything in this game. We don't need patrons patronizing us, we're perfectly capable on our own.

If I remember right, didn't those Patron-less Cosmogenesis empires proceed to get the hell out as soon as possible...?

When I read the lore, I understand that the Shroud is not something mysterious.

I see where your interpretation came from, but I personally came away with a very different one. I found the Zroni narrative to imply that their actions became the domino that pushed the Shroud to spiral out of control, becoming the dangerous and incomprehensible place it is now; that's one of the parts that made their tragedy interesting.

From my perspective, one of the fundamental thematic elements of the Shroud is that in the present day, it's something far out of any empire's complete control. That's what makes it unique from the other ascensions! The Psionic Entities may have once had mundane origins, but that doesn't mean they can't have since become something incomprehensible and eldritch.

 

[Silens]

If I remember right, didn't those Patron-less Cosmogenesis empires proceed to get the hell out as soon as possible...?

Yes, because why fight, when you can jump dimensions at will? Cosmogenesis wants to create a new favorable reality for a new fresh start, not to start a war. The point I was making was that you can enter the Shroud physically as any empire, using your own technology, without any help. It should be up to the player what they do with that.

I found the Zroni narrative to imply that their actions became the domino that pushed the Shroud to spiral out of control, becoming the dangerous and incomprehensible place it is now; that's one of the parts that made their tragedy interesting.

What ended the Zroni was the civil war. It was fought over the effects that using the Shroud had on reality. It drew increasing amounts of energy from the material plane the more it was used. Projections implied that overusing the Shroud could potentially devour the galaxy and other galaxies over time, as the central black hole grew bigger.

After all Zroni died in a desperate act of total (self-)destruction inflicted by one side, the Shroud remained as an empty place ever since, with only the Zroni-made entities being in it. It wasn't the Shroud growing out of control, it was the Zroni themselves who got intoxicated on the power. With them gone, the Shroud remained mostly empty.

Purely technically speaking, the Shroud seems to be a dimension within the central black hole, or at least connected through it. It's also where the Formless are, who use the Shroud as a shortcut to other places. Given how you can enter and leave it physically, I'd even call it a physical dimension and not a spiritual one.

With regards to psionics in general, it's a gift/ability that resonates well with the Shroud, but exists without it. What we do with that gift, how we use it, and how we approach the Shroud, and if at all, that should be up to the player I think. If praying to those manmade horrors makes you happy, go for it. But it's not my cup of tea.

From my perspective, one of the fundamental thematic elements of the Shroud is that in the present day, it's something far out of any empire's control. The fact that the Entities had mundane origins doesn't mean they can't have since become incomprehensible and eldritch.

And it is exactly this thematic element that I fundamentally disagree with. Why is it out of control? Why can't we overcome those limits? Every other Ascension ultimately overcomes all limitations, we learn of other psionic species that overcame those limitations, but our own psionic endgoal is being stuck with imperialist-authoritarian veneration of manmade gods in a mystery box, that remains uncontrollable only for us, because of... reasons?

I just want the same degree of freedom that I get to enjoy with every other Ascension.

 

[Lazy Name]

After all Zroni died in a desperate act of total (self-)destruction inflicted by one side, the Shroud remained as an empty place ever since, with only the Zroni-made entities being in it. It wasn't the Shroud growing out of control, it was the Zroni themselves who got intoxicated on the power. With them gone, the Shroud remained mostly empty.

This is the main part I disagree with. I don't remember it being written that the state the Shroud was left it at the end of the Zroni story is the same as the state it's in in the present, and I was under the impression that the destabilized Shroud had grown much more busy and active in the meantime. I'll have to actually check the in-game text sometime, though.

I just want the same degree of freedom that I get to enjoy with every other Ascension.

This does seem to just be an agree to disagree thing. All I can say is that mysterious and unknowable psionic realms are a common trope, Stellaris has already set a precedent for leaning into that trope, and I personally like how that sets it apart from other ascensions and prefer for them to stick with it while still expanding different flavours.

 

[Silens]

This does seem to just be an agree to disagree thing. All I can say is that mysterious and unknowable psionic realms are a common trope, Stellaris has already set a precedent for leaning into that trope, and I personally like how that sets it apart from other ascensions and prefer for them to stick with it while still expanding different flavours.

Nothing prevents the devs from offering different approaches. Those who want the mysterious Shroud with the eldritch gods, can continue venerating them. Those who see it as just another dimension to be conquered, should be able to do it. Those who want psionics without relying on some other dimension, should certainly get their path as well. Those who want immortality by projecting their soul into an immortal machine body (like Endless Legend's Broken Lords), sure, go ahead!

The lore would support all those approaches. Stellaris leans into many tropes, there's enough room for everyone to be happy.

 

[Falrinn]

Thinking it over, I think the most straightforward solution would be for the new Patrons to not be other, Zironi manifestations, but rather powerful psionics of ages past who fused their consciousnesses into the Shroud in their journey to understand the nature of the realm.

They don't have the raw power of the Zironi manifestations, but they have knowledge of the Shroud that far exceeds that of any living psionic and a willingness to share it under the right circumstances.

There's still consequences to working with them. "The right circumstances" might involve annoying or even making an enemy of existing Patrons. Likewise trying to use technology and science to aide in drawing power from the Shroud can easily have "calibration errors" that result in uncontrolled Shroud energy flooding into your systems.

Overall these new patrons will enable a more scientific or egalitarian approach to the Shroud, with a variety of options including a "high risk/high reward" path second only to the End of the Cycle in how much things can go horribly wrong.

 

[Swarm lover]

Thinking it over, I think the most straightforward solution would be for the new Patrons to not be other, Zironi manifestations, but rather powerful psionics of ages past who fused their consciousnesses into the Shroud in their journey to understand the nature of the realm.

They don't have the raw power of the Zironi manifestations, but they have knowledge of the Shroud that far exceeds that of any living psionic and a willingness to share it under the right circumstances.

There's still consequences to working with them. "The right circumstances" might involve annoying or even making an enemy of existing Patrons. Likewise trying to use technology and science to aide in drawing power from the Shroud can easily have "calibration errors" that result in uncontrolled Shroud energy flooding into your systems.

Overall these new patrons will enable a more scientific or egalitarian approach to the Shroud, with a variety of options including a "high risk/high reward" path second only to the End of the Cycle in how much things can go horribly wrong.

I would prefer also the option to strike out on my own or create my own patron.

 

[Silens]

Thinking it over, I think the most straightforward solution would be for the new Patrons to not be other, Zironi manifestations, but rather powerful psionics of ages past who fused their consciousnesses into the Shroud in their journey to understand the nature of the realm.

This thread is about psionic ascension being shoehorned into Shroud/patron only gameplay. And your solution is to... add more patrons? And punish the player for not being nice to them?

I just want alternatives that have nothing to do with serving any patron, or creating any patron, or having a patron in any shape, way, or form.

How about some paths that don't involve the Shroud at all, but lean completely on psionics as a skill? Maybe the way Biotics in Mass Effect or Technomages in Babylon 5 work? Meaning a scientific approach towards the betterment of your species via mental power and technology, instead of relying on some old ghosts in a pocket dimension.

And I'd really love some input from the devs here. I'm fairly certain you guys read most threads, but some confirmation or acknowledgement would still be very much appreciated. Even more so, if you could share some of your thoughts on this in the process.

 

[Falrinn]

I'm all in favor of having a "No Patron" path for Psionics in principle, I'm just thinking in terms of "If the devs are locked into Patrons as a concept for Psionic Ascension, could we instead get a new class of Patron that's less domineering?".

 

[Thiend]

This thread is about psionic ascension being shoehorned into Shroud/patron only gameplay. And your solution is to... add more patrons? And punish the player for not being nice to them?

I just want alternatives that have nothing to do with serving any patron, or creating any patron, or having a patron in any shape, way, or form.

How about some paths that don't involve the Shroud at all, but lean completely on psionics as a skill? Maybe the way Biotics in Mass Effect or Technomages in Babylon 5 work? Meaning a scientific approach towards the betterment of your species via mental power and technology, instead of relying on some old ghosts in a pocket dimension.

And I'd really love some input from the devs here. I'm fairly certain you guys read most threads, but some confirmation or acknowledgement would still be very much appreciated. Even more so, if you could share some of your thoughts on this in the process.

I don't know if they read MOST threads, but they certainly read some. Would be nice to know their plans for thematic options.

Personally, I don't mind all options involving interacting with entities in the shroud, but its unnecessarily limiting for that to be the only option. I would be satisfied with options interacting with yet not serving shroud entities (again, serving or symbiotic relationships or seeking to destroy them...), but there's just no reason to stop there.

Personally, my ideal would include patrons, the God-Emperor as creating a new Shroud entity patron of your own, or some third option - perhaps one to cleanse the shroud of the patron-entities entirely, or something else entirely unrelated to patrons. More options is better, of course.