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Tinto Flavour #15 - 25th of April 2025 - Military Orders

Hello and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Fridays in which we take a look at the content of the super secret Project Caesar!

Today, we will be talking about the Christian Military Orders, and specifically, the Teutonic Order and the Knights Hospitallers! Let’s start without further ado:

The glorious Order of Brothers of the German House of Saint Mary in Jerusalem, also known as the Teutonic Order, faces its destiny on the stormy coasts of the Baltic Sea. Created to protect the Christian pilgrims on their way to the Holy City of Jerusalem, its objective shifted to Christianize the Pagan tribes of Prussia and the Baltic through the creation of a state on those lands.

Under the leadership of our predecessor, Hochmeister Werner von Orseln, the Teutonic Order has expanded its territorial holdings, but this expansion has not come without consequences. The Order's aggressive policies have created powerful enemies, as the Pagan tribes to the East have united and formed the Grand Duchy of Lithuania, then allying with our Catholic southern neighbor and rival, the Kingdom of Poland, which has set aside their Christian duty, joining with the pagans against us.

The time has come for our Order to prove that we are up to the crusading task that we have set for ourselves, and show the world that even surrounded by enemies, our faith stands triumphant.
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The Knights Hospitaller conquered the island of Ródos in the early 14th century, spurred by the fall of Acre in 1291, establishing a stronghold that would allow us to pursue our mission to protect Christian pilgrims. Ródos, a picturesque island in the Aegean Sea, has become a thriving center for our Military Order, marked by fortifications and a bustling economy. However, this prosperity is countered by relentless attacks by neighboring Muslim fleets. But we have demonstrated remarkable resilience, defending Ródos through ferocious battles, showcasing our martial prowess and unwavering dedication.

Nonetheless, the future of our Order looks bleak, as our enemies become more powerful and the disunity among the Catholic countries runs rampant. Recovering the Holy Land seems to be a fading hope with each passing day, but our determination is unbreakable, and we will pursue that objective until our last man falls.
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Country Selection Teutons.png

Country Selection Knights.png

As usual, consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.​

The Teutonic Order starts with an interesting political and diplomatic situation:
Teutonic Order.png

Teutonic Diplomacy.png

The Teutonic Order has several vassals, including the Livonian Order; but also starts at war with Poland and Lithuania - something that is not final, since we’re considering representing this Teutonic-Polish conflicts with a truce, instead, as it was resolved peacefully a few years after the start of our game.​

While the situation of the Knights Hospitaller is also interesting, in a different way:
Knights.png

A Unique Location Minor with unique content spotted!​

All Military Orders share some common flavour, starting with a Major Government Reform:
Military Order.png

That unlocks some unique buildings:
Order Headquarters.png

Order Stronghold.png

Order Commandery.png

The Order Headquarters is a capital-only building (so just one per country). The Order Stronghold is a building that you can build in any location you own. While the Order Commandery is a foreign building, that you can build in the lands of any Catholic country with which you have good relations, making it a powerful tool to support your crusading effort.​

There’s also this Estate Privilege for your Clergy:
Military Orders.png

That unlocks a unique diplomatic action with other Catholic countries, the Sponsorship of Military Order:
Sponsorship Military Order.png

Sponsoring.png

Sponsored.png

As being theocracies, the Military Order also have access to unique Laws & Policies, such as:
Law Divine Cause.png

Law Holy Mission.png

Law Monastic Order.png

Law Celibacy.png

Going to the more unique content for each, the Knights have access to a couple more reforms and privileges:
Reform KNI Crusade Sea.png

Privilege KNI Local Commanders.png

The Teutons start with another unique Estate Privilege, and a Work of Art:
Privilege Kulm Law.png

Chronicon Terra Prussiae.png

And both have their own set of advances:

Teutonic Advances
Advance TEU Crusader Discipline.png

Advance TEU Teutonic Heavy Cavalry.png

Advance TEU Reformed Army.png

Advance TEU Teutonic Religious Authority.png

Advance TEU One Estate, One Religion.png


Advances for the Knights Hospitallers
Advance KNI Assistance Suffering.png

Advance KNI Reconquista.png

Advance KNI Scourge.png

Advance KNI Crusade.png

Advance KNI Order State.png

The Teutonic Order and the Knights also have a few dozen unique events each, but since today’s Tinto Flavour is already long enough, let’s just show one example per each:
Saint George1.png

Saint George2.png


Aftermath Crusade Era.png

And that’s all for today! Next Friday is a bank holiday in Tinto, so no Tinto Flavour; but remember that on Monday we will take a look at the Tinto Maps Feedback for Eastern, Central and Southern Africa, and on Wednesday there will be a Tinto Talks about Protestantism and the War of Religion. Cheers!
 

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pheonicia said:
How fun are the opm/olms without historical content? Is it going to be a miserable time playing the tiny nations that don't get events, or do opms and olms get special tools in general.
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In the grand scheme of things, a few historical events won't make a huge difference for 500 years of gameplay, so I don't see how small countries without flavor could be significantly more "miserable" than those that get some special laws or events.
 
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Pavía said:
They don't have unique content, but use the same mechanics as the other Military Orders (although they aren't land-based, but building-based).
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And would it be possible for a country to be both ?
For exemple what happens to all the buildings of the building based iberian military order if it manages to become landed somehow ?
Wouldn't it be more historical and flavorful to have the teutonic order or the knoghts of rodes act as landed countries in their territory but as building based countries in foreign countries ?
 
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  • I like the background images for the terrain on this map except for the squares (from an oblique angle) that are above and below the C in Teutonic, which I can only assume are supposed to mean farmlands. They look out of place. (Maybe this is another indication that farmlands shouldn't be 'terrain').
  • With the border shading it makes the two 'Liv.' on the islands to appear to be different than Livonia
Teutonic%20Order.png


  • Move the fact that it is a major reform to the title bar. It sounds to me like a classification "Government Reform | Major" like in unit types. I would move their Connor MacLeod nature to the tooltip.
  • Use a Religion base for the conversion icon instead of what appears to be connected to culture
  • What are Clergy allowed to lead? the country, armies, both, something else? I would have the base of the icon be an indicator of what the clergy can lead with a clergy modifier.
  • Move away from Yes/No (or what has lately appeared as just 'Yes')
    • "Military Sponsorship Target" "Allowed"
    • "Religious Conversion" "Blocked"
    • "Clergy Leaders" "Allowed"
  • I would change 'to' to 'towards'.
    • "To" indicates a destination or final point of arrival, while "towards" indicates a general direction of movement without necessarily reaching a final destination.
Military%20Order.png


  • Is there a bug of do we add a 'background' circle to the 'building as an advance' icon? It is good to have some difference
  • Changes to the title bar and first two lines
    • Move age icon to the right side of title bar like in advance tooltips
    • Get rid of the classification icon and add it to the title bar subtitle like in unit type tooltips.
      • "Building Type | Government"
    • Take the second line and add it to the first line in the now vacated space.
  • Do Buildings with Capital restrictions ever have effects that are active when the buildings are not in the capital? If not it would be better to have one line that mentions that fact then having to have the 'If in the capital, the <Location|Province|Area|Country> beenfits by' for each possible effect grouping.
    • I would also move away from needing long phrases for section titles. "Gives the following benefits to its Location" would be better as "Location benefits" (centered to make it obvious it is a section title)
  • "Recruit Regiments" <--> "Allowed"
  • The goods parchment motif looks terrible with the solid background color for the numbers.
  • If we think that it is likely that goods will be in hundredths than commit to that and have room for x.xx instead of having the values shrink.
  • Why is the good for Production method a single line but for Requirements for Construction a vertical list?
  • I do like the border on the sections and having the sections colors different from the the tooltip background.
  • What is the Thumbs up/down icon in location requirements supposed to indicate?(Order Commandery)
Order%20Headquarters.png


  • If something that is indicated in various sections is it additive (i.e. the two disciplines in this list)
  • Will there be any indication if the conditional clauses are currently true?
  • With the format you are using for the conditional clause and the lack of differentiation of the background color it makes it hard to see what the conditional belongs to. Technically with using the modifier at the far left and then the conditional bulleted it appears that they are sub the modifier listed above. (Which I do not think is what you intend)
  • Why is army in one icon represented as two soldiers and in another as a star?
  • Is this estate available to non Military Order countries? (confusion with the Gives/receives distinction on 'SoMO')
Military%20Orders.png


  • If you are going to put Stockholm instead of Country Capital, put Sweden in instead of Country.
  • Add the Modifier Effects inline.
    • Sweden gains Sponsored Military Order
      • "Monthly Army Tradition" <--> "+0.01"
Sponsorship%20Military%20Order.png


  • Is the implementation date the point when it gets to 100%? If so we don't also have to list that it is at 100%?
    • What do these two lines look like when the percentage is not 100% or 0%?
    • Are the modifiers prorated by the implementation percentage? or do the spring into being whole cloth once it gets to 100%?
  • The list of policy title and subtitle are redundant. "With the following options" is not needed
    • "With the following options"
      • "The options that follow" <-- drop this
        • Here
        • is
        • the
        • list
  • This looks like too many options for a single 'law'
Law%20Holy%20Mission.png


  • put the classification in the subtitle "Policy | Theocratic Leadership Law" (with or without the word 'Law' is fine)
  • If the 'when implemented' section is an empty set don't show the section.
  • The 'When Implemented' title feels ambiguous. The ongoing modifiers go (fully?) into effect when implemented. I realize this list is for the non-ongoing effects that occur at that point. I don't know what to change it to, maybe 'At implementation'?
  • line up the decimal points in the effects (i.e. pretend there is an invisible % at the end of the +0.10)
Law%20Monastic%20Order.png


  • I would change this icon as such
    • <Coins on paper> in the icon base position. This is for Tax
    • <Arrow up to bar> in the modifier position. This indicated maximum or cap
    • <Burgher Estate> in the secondary modifier position. This limits it to the Burghers.
  • With a change like this you can
    • have it be for any estate by changing the secondary modifier
    • have it generic by not having a secondary modifier
    • If there are other things that are taxed (and have a maximum) you could use non-estate secondary modifiers.
1745593696711.png


  • My typical, if you have it in the age icon title bar you don't need the line in the tooltip.
Advance%20TEU%20Crusader%20Discipline.png


Sorry for wall and what feels like a lot of repetition from previous TT/TF/BS.
 
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pheonicia said:
How fun are the opm/olms without historical content? Is it going to be a miserable time playing the tiny nations that don't get events, or do opms and olms get special tools in general.
Click to expand...
Isn't the "misery" the reason people play them in the first place? I don't think Krakow in Victoria has some major content or special tools either and people like to play it for the challenge of forming Poland.
 
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"...Catholic southern neighbor and rival, the Kingdom of Poland, which has set aside their Christian duty, joining with the pagans against us." Thats some teuton propaganda! I hope get the right version of history in the primer for poland wink wink
 
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Dongerino said:
Isn't the "misery" the reason people play them in the first place? I don't think Krakow in Victoria has some major content or special tools either and people like to play it for the challenge of forming Poland.
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I'm not afraid of playing an opm/olm and it being painful, I'm afraid of playing them and it being *boring*. Nothing worse than repetitive tedium and a boring game.
 
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pheonicia said:
I'm not afraid of playing an opm/olm and it being painful, I'm afraid of playing them and it being *boring*. Nothing worse than repetitive tedium and a boring game.
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I'm optimistic. There's more stuff to do at peace in this game and the diplomatic options seem about the same, so at the very least, it'll be as fun as in EU4
 
Dongerino said:
I'm optimistic. There's more stuff to do at peace in this game and the diplomatic options seem about the same, so at the very least, it'll be as fun as in EU4
Click to expand...
I'd just like to see, with my own eyes, a playthrough or aar of the devs playing nowhereville olm and having it be more interesting than "blob as fast and mindlessly as possible until you become a medium teir power".
 
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Is there a mechanic for regular countries to use order strongholds, or convert to fortresses? I guess having a seperate building is to allow different bonuses, and it doesn't make sense for most countries to be able to get those, but it also doesn't make sense that they wouldn't be able to use the existing forts.
 
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Can the Teutons (or I guess the Livonians) purchase Estonia off of Denmark as a result of the uprising? Historically, they took over castles in Reval and Narva, under the pretense that they needed them to fight the rebellion, and then demanded payment from Valdemar Atterdag to give them back. Alternatively he could sell the Estonian territories to the Teutons which he did 1346. They paid 19,000 silver marks, of which 13,000 went to Valdemar and 6,000 went to Brandenburg (they had dynastic claims, which they were paid to renounce). Valdemar later used the funds to win back control of Denmark.
 
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