Racial Units

[Imma93]

If this was already discussed somewhere, I'm sorry, I didn't find it, please point me to it!

I really appreciate the many tactical possibilities you have in this game, and I think this addition would add a little more.
I read suggestions to add more cultural units or a T4 unit for each culture and there is already a mod for it but hear me out.
If instead every form (race) had one (or maybe more?) units, you could mix and match forms and cultures. It would be similar to AoW3 where you got most units from the class (now culture) and some (I think 7) from the race. I think even if it was just one racial unit it would already be cool and make race/form choice more meaningful.

I know there are some cons, but I think they don't weigh heavy because:
- You don't have to use the unit if it doesn't fit well. It's the same for many cultural units that don't fit the current playstyle.
- Esthetic wise they don't have to fit perfectly to the culture. Tome Units often don't.
- Of course there will be some obvious matches, but we have plenty of this in the game already (e.g. Storm Giant + Experienced Seafarers). It could still be interesting to try to find less obvious synergies.

Here are some suggestions, mainly from previous games!
- https://aow.heavengames.com/units
- https://aow2.heavengames.com/gameinfo/units
- https://minionsart.github.io/aow3db/

Race / Form	Unit
Human	Air Galley
Elfkin	Treeman Maybe a Bowman
Simian (Monkeys)
Ogrekin
Insectoid	Harvester (AoW2 Shadow Demon)
Syron	Astral Sprite
Goatkin
Lupine (Wolfs)
Avian (Birds)
Lizardfolk
Orcoid	Warlord
Dwarfkin	First Born
Halfling	Leprachaun Centaur
Goblinoid	Troll Bomber
Feline	Sphinx
Ratkin
Toadkin
Molekin

What are your thoughts or suggestions? Which units would you like to return?

 

[GloatingSwine]

TBH this component of faction building is kinda taken up by the mount traits.

Because forms are just graphical in AoW4, this kind of thing would be in a trait pick instead. Having a trait pick for a whole separate unit would be a delicate thing because it would be very easy to make them useless as you're sacrificing early game power. They either need to be a tier 1 that's good for the early game or a competitive tier 4 that's good enough that you're willing to trade early game power for it.

 

[MortyTheGoblin]

Your choice of form isn't supposed to be very meaningful. It's aesthetic, and such mechanics as it has are bound in the form traits. Which, as explained, aren't really the best place to add units.

 

[Imma93]

TBH this component of faction building is kinda taken up by the mount traits.

Because forms are just graphical in AoW4, this kind of thing would be in a trait pick instead. Having a trait pick for a whole separate unit would be a delicate thing because it would be very easy to make them useless as you're sacrificing early game power. They either need to be a tier 1 that's good for the early game or a competitive tier 4 that's good enough that you're willing to trade early game power for it.

I think T4 Units would make more sense and I would not want it as a form trait but have one for each form. With this change forms would not just be cosmetical anymore. I would even like it if every form had a mandatory form trait as well. Some have a big problem with this and TBH I don't really get it. Culture choice has a much bigger graphical influence. It determines how your cities and units look, and it is strictly connected to mechanics. In my understanding this is good, because the visuals tell you something about them. For some reason it's supposed to be bad for forms, that's what I don't get.

 

[MortyTheGoblin]

I think T4 Units would make more sense and I would not want it as a form trait but have one for each form. With this change forms would not just be cosmetical anymore. I would even like it if every form had a mandatory form trait as well. Some have a big problem with this and TBH I don't really get it. Culture choice has a much bigger graphical influence. It determines how your cities and units look, and it is strictly connected to mechanics. In my understanding this is good, because the visuals tell you something about them. For some reason it's supposed to be bad for forms, that's what I don't get.

Because forms are supposed to be cosmetic. That's the basis of AOW4's faction creation. Giving elves a T4 archer unit doesn't work because maybe not every elven faction are forest-dwelling nature-lovers. And the value of such a unit would be very different depending on the culture it's attached to, which would make some forms better suited to some cultures - something we really don't want.

 

[GloatingSwine]

With this change forms would not just be cosmetical anymore. I would even like it if every form had a mandatory form trait as well.

Protip: If your suggestion is based on pretending the game is a different game, your suggestion has severe underlying flaws.

Age of Wonders 4's design intent is for this not to be the case. Start from the game that exists, not imagining a different one in your head.

 

[Streletz]

Protip: If your suggestion is based on pretending the game is a different game, your suggestion has severe underlying flaws.

Age of Wonders 4's design intent is for this not to be the case. Start from the game that exists, not imagining a different one in your head.

Forms being purely cosmetic isn't something set in stone.

In Stellaris forms were also purely cosmetic for a long time, until devs started to add unique origins (aka societal picks) and traits for each form, and that made the game better.

And that would be a good idea for AoW4 as well.

 

[Imma93]

Because forms are supposed to be cosmetic. That's the basis of AOW4's faction creation. Giving elves a T4 archer unit doesn't work because maybe not every elven faction are forest-dwelling nature-lovers. And the value of such a unit would be very different depending on the culture it's attached to, which would make some forms better suited to some cultures - something we really don't want.

But we have it everywhere. Tomes, Cultures, Culture Traits, Ruler Types, they all fit much better with some then certain others. I don't want to complain about this, it's not perfect but for me that's ok. Creating synergies and keeping things balances is probably incredibly difficult.

For me the sweet spot would be if form/race would have an effect of similar weight as the rulers weapon choice. If you don't pick one that perfectly fits your build it's not the end of the world but it can still be an interesting choice

 

[MortyTheGoblin]

But we have it everywhere. Tomes, Cultures, Culture Traits, Ruler Types, they all fit much better with some then certain others. I don't want to complain about this, it's not perfect but for me that's ok. Creating synergies and keeping things balances is probably incredibly difficult.

For me the sweet spot would be if form/race would have an effect of similar weight as the rulers weapon choice. If you don't pick one that perfectly fits your build it's not the end of the world but it can still be an interesting choice

But the entire point of the way forms work is for people not to be bound by preconceptions about elves being woodland archers, goblins being stinky degenerates and whatever else. Like GloatingSwine said, what you're proposing isn't how the game is meant to work.

 

[Imma93]

Forms being purely cosmetic isn't something set in stone.

In Stellaris forms were also purely cosmetic for a long time, until devs started to add unique origins (aka societal picks) and traits for each form, and that made the game better.

And that would be a good idea for AoW4 as well.

I didn't know about this. Apparently, I only played it after they changed it. I agree 100%.

But the entire point of the way forms work is for people not to be bound by preconceptions about elves being woodland archers, goblins being stinky degenerates and whatever else. Like GloatingSwine said, what you're proposing isn't how the game is meant to work.

But are you bound to playing dirty goblins if they would have one mandatory form trait or one extra unit?

If it was one extra unit and I play a faction that relies on spell casters and tanks, and the form gives you an archer, you could just ignore it.
Let's say I play High and use the Awakener and some Tome Tank unit for my roaster. I will ignore most other Units of the High culture with this playstyle and that's totally fine.
I should probably retract though, and the racial unit should not be T4 but rather around T2. If it is T4 it could get too mandatory.

If it was a predefined form trait it can always be something that doesn't break more extravagant playstyles, like holy righteous goblins. It could be something small in the ballpark of +5 HP (even if the predefined trait would be that they stank, I think that would be kinda funny).

 

[MortyTheGoblin]

But are you bound to playing dirty goblins if they would have one mandatory form trait or one extra unit?

If it was one extra unit and I play a faction that relies on spell casters and tanks, and the form gives you an archer, you could just ignore it.
Let's say I play High and use the Awakener and some Tome Tank unit for my roaster. I will ignore most other Units of the High culture with this playstyle and that's totally fine.
I should probably retract though, and the racial unit should not be T4 but rather around T2. If it is T4 it could get too mandatory.

If it was a predefined form trait it can always be something that doesn't break more extravagant playstyles, like holy righteous goblins. It could be something small in the ballpark of +5 HP (even if the predefined trait would be that they stank, I think that would be kinda funny).

If it's as minor as that, what's the point? All you're doing is adding something that ranges from a small annoyance to active obstruction (if you're trying to fully optimize your faction for multiplayer or playing against tough AI) for the sake of... conforming to what you think forms should be like?

 

[Imma93]

If it's as minor as that, what's the point? All you're doing is adding something that ranges from a small annoyance to active obstruction (if you're trying to fully optimize your faction for multiplayer or playing against tough AI) for the sake of... conforming to what you think forms should be like?

You could say the same about the rulers weapon choice. Why care about making different staffs have different effects. The result is not that big. The answer for me is that it still feels nice.

If it was something like: Goblins get slightly more draft, dwarfs get slightly more production, elfs have slightly better moral (those are just examples of the top of my head). It would make forms/races more thematic and I don't see how it would prevent you from going into a completely different direction if you wanted to.

And why would it be annoying to have a unit that doesn't fit inside a build? If it does fit you can feel smart and if it doesn't you don't loose anything. Are you always annoyed when you pick a tome but it includes this one thing that you don't need?

 

[Orphalesion]

- You don't have to use the unit if it doesn't fit well. It's the same for many cultural units that don't fit the current playstyle.

Sorry but that's a completely useless argument. Of course I'm gonna use all units that are going to be at my disposal. And so I don't want my magi-tec Elves to have a treeman.

Claiming that his would be okay because "cultural units don't always fit either", is also very flawed as an argument to me. The cultural units are so generic that they can fit a number of interpretations that fit the cultural archetype they are assigned to. The only possible exceptions are the Reavers, and I greatly fault the Reavers for being too specific.

I agree that many of the units you listed should return....but not tied to forms.

 

[Azktor]

Instead of this I would ratter have some minor tweaks to cultural units depending which race you are playing with. Same as AoW 3 did. Like, halfling hunter unit used a slingshot instead of shortbow, orcs a javelin and elfs longbow. But i really doubt this will happen in AoW 4, the races are only aesthetics and probably that is going to remain like that.

If you want some racial flavour to your games I recomend this mod: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2972597608 Forms have traits. It is my favorite mod, probably the only one I can't image playing without it. It is minor more or less the same as a 1 trait slot, but it helps a lot to bring racial flavour.

 

[Orphalesion]

Instead of this I would ratter have some minor tweaks to cultural units depending which race you are playing with. Same as AoW 3 did. Like, halfling hunter unit used a slingshot instead of shortbow, orcs a javelin and elfs longbow.

No...that would once again be too restrictive to me. Again why are my magi-tec Elves using a longbow instead of a crossbow? If anything like that would happen, I'd would want it more along the lines of the player being able to choose whether they want a longbow, crossbow, or slingshot for their units.
I don't want any traits, units, or weapon visuals like that forced onto the forms.

 

[seperamos]

Forms being purely cosmetic isn't something set in stone.

In Stellaris forms were also purely cosmetic for a long time, until devs started to add unique origins (aka societal picks) and traits for each form, and that made the game better.

And that would be a good idea for AoW4 as well.

The forms have their usual traits already picked as a baseline. It's up to the player to modify the lore set traits.

 

[Streletz]

The forms have their usual traits already picked as a baseline. It's up to the player to modify the lore set traits.

Hum, and how is that different from what I said?

If you have a special "reptilian" trait that is available only to amphibians and dragonids (but that you're not forced to pick), how it would make the game worse?

Or a special "egg laying" society traits for dragonids and avians? Etc, etc.

 

[EvilEyeSigma]

something we really don't want.

"We"

AOW has many steps foward, and forms are definitely not one of them

 

[STARSDragoon]

Hum, and how is that different from what I said?

If you have a special "reptilian" trait that is available only to amphibians and dragonids (but that you're not forced to pick), how it would make the game worse?

Or a special "egg laying" society traits for dragonids and avians? Etc, etc.

Simple. Core idea of forms is giving the player the option to make their own race up.

Devs experimented locking content behind forms. But all it does is limit creativity. If only goblins and orcs can be barbarian and only goblins and halflings can take sneaky. You cant make sneaky insect barbarians.

If you lock any content behind specific forms it will be a huge incentive to pick certain forms for certain playstyles.

Only elves get unicorns? No goatkin unicornriders. If a form gets a good exclusive mage you are strongly encouraged to take that form for a mage focused faction. And discouraged to take strong with that form as it doesnt benefit your signature unit.

All of that goes into the opposite direction of how aow4 is designed. Letting you make your own dream empire.

 

[Jolly Joker]

What I could envision instead of a "racial" unit OR another cultural unit is a "society" unit which would be based on the affinity COMBINATION of the two society traits. There are 21 possible combinations, so that would add a lot of variety.
A more radical option would be to unlock an additional unit with every society trait. I think we have 36 traits now, so that would be 36 different units of which you would get two.

While both is possible (as possible as having more cultural units), I don't really see the point. Everything is centered around picking Tomes and the problem in my opinion is that the Tomes are not delivering enough true T4 units (no Mythicals). At present we have only TEN of them. In as many Tomes. However, we have a lot more T3 and T4 Tomes in which true T4s could appear, but don't.
So while there is an ample supply of T1 to T3 to support or even replace your cultural roster, there are not many options for the T4 tier (while Mythicals are no problem at all).