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Tinto Talks #61 - 30th of April 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about our entirely super-top-secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week, we will examine the mechanics of Protestant religions and the final situation involving all Western Christian confessions, the War of Religions.

First is first, we differentiate the 3 main Protestant religions: Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Anglicanism. All the different branches of Protestantism, more or less strictly covered under these wide denominations, are later represented through Church Aspects, a mechanism we’ll describe now. The underlying system here is for every player to be able to customize their own Protestant Church. As an example, the early Anglican Church funded by Henry VIII was very different from the Anglican Church that developed in times of James I, and the further division that then happened with the Puritans; we aim to portray dynamically these theological aspects with Church Aspects, therefore.

Let’s take a look at a Lutheran country first:

Early Reformation.jpg
I’m using the same save as last week’s TT. The Reformation was born in Perugia, and after a couple of years, it has already spread to some countries, of which Denmark is the biggest.

Here is the overview of Lutheranism and its religious panel:
Lutheranism tooltip.jpg

Lutheranism panel.jpg

Similarly to Catholicism, and other religions, it also uses Religious Influence as a currency:
Religious Influence.jpg

This currency is used to add or change Religious Aspects to your Church, and it also allows us to perform Religious Actions (of which we can’t currently perform any, as we don’t fulfill any of their triggers).

Let’s take a look now at the Religious Aspects, which define each Protestant Church:
Religious Aspect.jpg

There are plenty of Aspects, that can be either shared between the different Protestant religions, or be unique to them. This is the list of all the aspects available to Lutheran churches:
Religious Aspect2.jpg

Religious Aspect3.jpg

Religious Aspect4.jpg

Religious Aspect5.jpg

And this is what it looks like when you decide to pick one of them:
Translated Bibles.jpg

The base number of Religious Aspects that define each Church is 3, although this is subject to review, as usual. And it is possible to have entirely different and unique aspects per religion, since it’s a scriptable/moddable feature. Furthermore, Religious Aspects can have an impact on the relations a country has with others who use Religious Aspects. Since the aspects are partially shared between the faiths, this could lead to unlikely friendships… and hostilities.

Let’s now move on to the next religion, Calvinism, which is quite similar in structure to Lutheranism. It also spawns during the Reformation situation, it also has Calvinist Preachers that spread it, and it also uses Religious Aspects and Actions:
Calvinist Preachers.png

Calvinism tooltip.jpg

Calvinist panel.jpg

Calvin.jpg

Fun fact, Calvin has ended up being the Bishop (=ruler) of Basel in our save game!

Finally, we have Anglicanism. This Protestant religion doesn’t trigger through the situation, but as an event for England that may trigger after the Reformation is active:
Act of Supremacy.jpg

Ignore the broken loc, it appears like that because I used a console command to trigger it.

If we decided to Take command of the Church, a new religion will be created:
Take command of the Church.jpg

Anglicanism2.jpg

This is its overview and panel; Anglicanism starts with some more Religious Actions available:
Anglicanism.jpg

Anglican Religious Actions.jpg

Last, but not least, we have a couple of religions that also share the religious aspects, but are not necessarily tied to the Reformation situation. This includes Lollardy and Hussitism, which will be created together with their corresponding reformer, and the earlier catholic heresies of Bogomilism, Catharism, Paulicianism, and Waldensian.

The last feature we’re going to take a look at today is another situation, the War of Religions. This is the ending to all the narratives related to the Catholic and Protestant Churches, a fight for the religious supremacy over Europe, centered over the Holy Roman Empire, with the Thirty Years' War as inspiration:
War of Religion1.jpg

War of Religion2.jpg

War of Religion3.jpg

Two International Organizations will be created, the Protestant Union and the Catholic League:
Protestant Union.jpg

Catholic League.jpg

And this is the panel for the situation, which both sides, their relative strengths, the possibility to join one side or the other, etc.:
War of Religion4.jpg

An inconclusive result may lead to the negotiation of the Peace of Westphalia between the members of both Leagues and will alter the religious laws of the Holy Roman Empire.

… And that’s all for today! Next week, @Johan will come back once again to show more of the most recent changes and tweaks in the game. Cheers!
 
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Thank you for all the info!

In the Religious Aspect screenshot, I believe that sentence should read: "Some Religions have aspects that further specialize the details of each Country's version of the Religion." Specialize should replace specialties in that sentence. Or you could use "Some Religions have aspects that add further specialties as details of..."
 
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You can do it regularly, clicking in the 'Primary Religion' button in the religious panel:
View attachment 1287649
We can convert to Lutheranism or Waldensian, but not Judaism.
So what determines which religions you can convert to? Is it based on population? Can you only freely convert to religions in the same group?
 
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Regarding the "everything is preordained" modifier I didn't see it as making magically the world preordained, but rather that since your army have that belief, they'll stay "stuck" on the first random event they encounter in the given situation. That would be the reason YOUR die roll stays the same, not the one of your opponent.
I hope not, that might be an even worse option, somehow.

Even if every soldier on the ground was so totally subscribed to predeterminism, this portrayal would have them stand like robots, trying the same approaches no matter what happens during the course of battle. If this is what it's meant to depict, clearly it isn't based on any historical reality. Prussia was Lutheran, and thus espoused predetermist theology, but it's generals didn't go into every battle trying one tactic and then... hoping? The soldiers didn't just keep attacking the same way without faltering or surging. Random chance, which I'd always assumed is what the dice rolls are for, does not somehow not affect Lutherans.

Reading a Prussian military manual, they do not say to arrive at the field of battle and not adapt tactics or adjust to what the enemy is doing, because God has preordained how it will end. They didn't start to get flanked and go "Damn, guess it's my time!" They were still human and should be depicted as such.

Either way, the doctrine as portrayed in game has nothing to do with actual theological determinism - which is largely concerned with the question of if humans have free will and can earn salvation through doing good deeds (to almost criminally over-simplify the issue), not whether humans have some sort of unstoppable inertia and shouldn't try to survive. The way it's shown would make any denomination espousing predeterminism of the most extreme and inhuman cults in history, if it were real.

I think us trying to rationalize this into real terms is futile, as I believe it's meant to be a funny, unique, but not at all historically or theologically accurate mechanic. It's not really meant to conform in any way to reality, I dearly hope.
 
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I wanted to second the requests for at least one more Protestant denomination, flavored as Anabaptists or Radicals to represent the Radical Reformation. Much more essential for historical gameplay than Anglicanism which could easily be represented by Reformed/Calvinism with specific Religious Aspects. I get that a lot of things have to be abstracted for gameplay or balance reasons, but right now an important dynamic is simply missing without any populist faith to complicate the struggle between established state-centered confessions.
 
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I think this is over-analyzing what's meant to be a funny, unique, but not at all historically or theologically accurate mechanic, though. It's not really meant to conform to reality, I dearly hope.
I wondered if it was a joke when Johan first mentioned it a long time ago. As a fellow game developer I've also thought of it as a cheeky way to acknowledge save-scumming without breaking character. Like, if dice rolls aren't randomized when calvinists are involved that would make battles pre-determined for you as a player, thus removing the need to reroll battles for optimal play.

But if it just means the calvinists roll once and then that's that? I mean that would really acknowledge save-scumming, but in a much more extreme way where you either do it and get straight 6s every battle, or you don't do it and have a super immersive campaign full of losses.

In either case I don't think of it as what the soldiers actually would be up to on the field though.
 
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I hope not, that might be an even worse option, somehow.

Even if every soldier on the ground was so totally subscribed to predeterminism, this portrayal would have them stand like robots, trying the same approaches no matter what happens during the course of battle. If this is what it's meant to depict, clearly it isn't based on any historical reality. Prussia was Lutheran, and thus espoused predetermist theology, but it's generals didn't go into every battle trying one tactic and then... hoping? The soldiers didn't just keep attacking the same way without faltering or surging. Random chance, which I'd always assumed is what the dice rolls are for, does not somehow not affect Lutherans.

Reading a Prussian military manual, they do not say to arrive at the field of battle and not adapt tactics or adjust to what the enemy is doing, because God has preordained how it will end. They didn't start to get flanked and go "Damn, guess it's my time!" They were still human and should be depicted as such.

Either way, the doctrine as portrayed in game has nothing to do with actual theological determinism - which is largely concerned with the question of if humans have free will and can earn salvation through doing good deeds (to almost criminally over-simplify the issue), not whether humans have some sort of unstoppable inertia and shouldn't try to survive. The way it's shown would make any denomination espousing predeterminism of the most extreme and inhuman cults in history, if it were real.

I think us trying to rationalize this into real terms is futile, as I believe it's meant to be a funny, unique, but not at all historically or theologically accurate mechanic. It's not really meant to conform in any way to reality, I dearly hope.
The way I understood was that the "dynamic" battle (tactics change, phases, etc.) happens as per usual, just that every roll is the exact same dice roll throughout the battle. Still then, the modifier seems too silly to be viable in prolonged conflict with multiple battles imo.
 
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Tbh I'm kinda confused with the concepts presented in this DD, now that I think about it.

We have two "protestant" religions, Lutheran and Calvinist. They share the same mechanic, which allows them to be further customized. Most of the modifiers are common, while some are exclusive. Then we have a third religion which functions the same, but is restricted to an England/GB event.

But, like. Why? What makes Lutheran and Calvinist different? "oh one teaches that only the bible matters and the other focuses on predestination" why aren't these two separate Aspects? And then there are Anabaptists who advocated for adult baptism: what makes it a mere Aspect? And then there are those other six minor religions, why do they all have access to Aspects instead of just being, well, Aspects themselves?

I'm asking all this from an atheist-raised-in-Latin-America-with-a-Catholic-grandma standpoint. All these protestants *really* look the same to me, so I'd like to understand the differences between then and why take the middle road approach instead of some extreme (1-2 denominations, or every denomination implemented), and what are Aspects meant to represent amongst these religions.
 
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Even then, it’s more of a movement that can vary from one individual to another as opposed to a well defined school. You wouldn’t have pops who identify themselves specifically as Wahhabis although you could have a state whose religious authority aligns more to Wahhabi ideology. Even Sufism is more well defined and organized but difficult to represent at PC’s scale. The schools of jurisprudence would be a better way of breaking down “schools” within Sunni Islam. (note for Shias this map shows their different branches as opposed to schools of law)
View attachment 1287816
Good point, and to be fair, wahabism is very closely link to the al Saud family and the rise of the three saudi states. I suppose what could be done to represent it, is having an event that spawns the first saudi state and give them 'wahabism' as a unique school that only they have acces to.
 
Most peasants couldn't afford indulgences, it was mainly a thing purchased by the nobility and wealthy merchants. If anything peasant resentment was that if the indulgences could truly forgive your sins then the system was unfair as their souls would be seen as lesser than those of the wealthy.
This is not really true. Indulgences were progressively priced, i.e. the rich paid substantially more for an indulgence than the poor. They're one of the earlier forms of progressive "taxation" outside of the Roman Republic.
 
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I hope not, that might be an even worse option, somehow.

Even if every soldier on the ground was so totally subscribed to predeterminism, this portrayal would have them stand like robots, trying the same approaches no matter what happens during the course of battle. If this is what it's meant to depict, clearly it isn't based on any historical reality. Prussia was Lutheran, and thus espoused predetermist theology, but it's generals didn't go into every battle trying one tactic and then... hoping? The soldiers didn't just keep attacking the same way without faltering or surging. Random chance, which I'd always assumed is what the dice rolls are for, does not somehow not affect Lutherans.

Reading a Prussian military manual, they do not say to arrive at the field of battle and not adapt tactics or adjust to what the enemy is doing, because God has preordained how it will end. They didn't start to get flanked and go "Damn, guess it's my time!" They were still human and should be depicted as such.

Either way, the doctrine as portrayed in game has nothing to do with actual theological determinism - which is largely concerned with the question of if humans have free will and can earn salvation through doing good deeds (to almost criminally over-simplify the issue), not whether humans have some sort of unstoppable inertia and shouldn't try to survive. The way it's shown would make any denomination espousing predeterminism of the most extreme and inhuman cults in history, if it were real.

I think us trying to rationalize this into real terms is futile, as I believe it's meant to be a funny, unique, but not at all historically or theologically accurate mechanic. It's not really meant to conform in any way to reality, I dearly hope.
Yea, while Calvinist believe in predestination, it doesn't mean they don't adapt or change to the circumstances in battle. One can look at the various parliamentarian officers in the English civil war who adapted to the circumstances of the various battles. More over there were plenty of battles where initially they were in the weaker position but later on circumstances changed and now they had the upper hand.
 
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Are all religious aspects equal in ability to pass and consequences? some of these, like adult baptism, were beyond radical and caused immense strife and violence at their adoption while others barely sent ripples in answer.
Will there be social/political consequences from adopting these, will some risk social tension or rejection of your religion all together if adopted?

Also will dissolving monastry vastly imbalance power in favour of the crown and nobility or will it just harm the clergy for treasury gain as if its going to be simulated, it's long reaching economic, social and political consequences should be as well.

all in all this looks great

also will there be wacky reforms, i.e. leveller's communal ownership or melanchthon's polygamy that IRL never got mainstream adoption but might have?
 
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Did you get this backwards? I think you meant to say that the House of Hohenzollern was Calvinist, as thus... etc, etc. Point still stands though, Friedrich the Great certainly didn't act the course of battle was set in stone from the outset.
You're correct, I got some of the Prussias and their religious affiliations mixed up in my head. I was accidentally referring to the Duchy of Prussia, which was the first state to convert to Lutheranism, rather than the Reformist Kingdom of Prussia which I'd meant to refer to. The point possibly stands doubly so, now, given that Reformism is double-predestinationist where Lutheranism is only single-predestinationist...
 
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Will wars have truce periods to reflect members swapping sides like the Burgundians did through the Hundred Years War or other countries did during the Thirty Years War? Or will something like the Russians backing out of the Seven Years War against Prussia because the new Tsar was pro-German be a possibility?

This is an unusual case of a change in leadership forcing an extremely irrational change in state policy, to the point I'm not sure it can be represented. If it was to be depicted however Russia signing a separate white peace with Prussia would be accurate.
Honestly that's even simulated in eu4, kinda, through the "fierce negotiator" trait and the "charismatic negotiator" trait. A ruler dying can lead to them immediately getting white peaced.
 
Tbh I'm kinda confused with the concepts presented in this DD, now that I think about it.

We have two "protestant" religions, Lutheran and Calvinist. They share the same mechanic, which allows them to be further customized. Most of the modifiers are common, while some are exclusive. Then we have a third religion which functions the same, but is restricted to an England/GB event.

But, like. Why? What makes Lutheran and Calvinist different? "oh one teaches that only the bible matters and the other focuses on predestination" why aren't these two separate Aspects? And then there are Anabaptists who advocated for adult baptism: what makes it a mere Aspect? And then there are those other six minor religions, why do they all have access to Aspects instead of just being, well, Aspects themselves?

I'm asking all this from an atheist-raised-in-Latin-America-with-a-Catholic-grandma standpoint. All these protestants *really* look the same to me, so I'd like to understand the differences between then and why take the middle road approach instead of some extreme (1-2 denominations, or every denomination implemented), and what are Aspects meant to represent amongst these religions.
This does seem to be the big problem regarding the way the various Protestant traditions are portrayed in the game—that they seem so vapid and without real distinctives.
 
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given that Reformism is double-predestinationist where Lutheranism is only single-predestinationist...
Somehow despite having many relatives and friends who are devote Lutherans I've never heard of "single-predestination", although looking up the term I do know the theology around it.
Still, am I the only one that feels weird saying Lutherans (and I'm pretty sure most Protestants? I thought that "by faith alone" was a pretty universal Protestant belief) believe in predestination?
 
I am very, almost agressively agnostic and generally object to there being a wont to over-emphasize the role religion played in life and politics, but this seems to be really... flat. Folk have already discussed the naming weirdness, but this simplification in general leaves out a lot of the causes that effected migration patterns particularly to the "new world". Like, as a materialist the idea of religions having mechanics that effect like, output or battle effects is weird, but even if these just get different and more names and more subtle differences that make them feel unique and somehow reflect beliefs should be a thing.

Anglican having its own mechanics and events too when so many other protestant/reformist denominations don't also feels weird. This feels like it should be more generally aplicable rather than just one nation, particularly once the alt history really sets in.

Finally: Is there anything special if the HRE emperor goes protestant on their own? Of all the HRE alternate histories other games offer, it seems weird that in no timeline is Autria going protestant/reform supported. I really want this one to not feel weirdly cut out in Caesar.
 
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You're correct, I got some of the Prussias and their religious affiliations mixed up in my head. I was accidentally referring to the Duchy of Prussia, which was the first state to convert to Lutheranism, rather than the Reformist Kingdom of Prussia which I'd meant to refer to. The point possibly stands doubly so, now, given that Reformism is double-predestinationist where Lutheranism is only single-predestinationist...
Strictly speaking the kingdom of Prussia wasn’t really reformist. The population was overwhelmingly Lutheran and this was respected, but the Hohenzollerns personally practiced Calvinism, so I’d represent them as having a state religion of Lutheranism but The royals are all Calvinists.
 
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It costs stability, besides Religious Influence, to change the existing ones. And we could add an implementation time for them, if it's something the community wants.
I think implementation time would make very much sense here, since changing religious doctrine is not something that simply happens as the crown wills it (looking at you Henry VIII).