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Tinto Talks #61 - 30th of April 2025

Hello, and welcome to another Tinto Talks, the happy Wednesdays where we talk about our entirely super-top-secret game with the codename Project Caesar.

This week, we will examine the mechanics of Protestant religions and the final situation involving all Western Christian confessions, the War of Religions.

First is first, we differentiate the 3 main Protestant religions: Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Anglicanism. All the different branches of Protestantism, more or less strictly covered under these wide denominations, are later represented through Church Aspects, a mechanism we’ll describe now. The underlying system here is for every player to be able to customize their own Protestant Church. As an example, the early Anglican Church funded by Henry VIII was very different from the Anglican Church that developed in times of James I, and the further division that then happened with the Puritans; we aim to portray dynamically these theological aspects with Church Aspects, therefore.

Let’s take a look at a Lutheran country first:

Early Reformation.jpg
I’m using the same save as last week’s TT. The Reformation was born in Perugia, and after a couple of years, it has already spread to some countries, of which Denmark is the biggest.

Here is the overview of Lutheranism and its religious panel:
Lutheranism tooltip.jpg

Lutheranism panel.jpg

Similarly to Catholicism, and other religions, it also uses Religious Influence as a currency:
Religious Influence.jpg

This currency is used to add or change Religious Aspects to your Church, and it also allows us to perform Religious Actions (of which we can’t currently perform any, as we don’t fulfill any of their triggers).

Let’s take a look now at the Religious Aspects, which define each Protestant Church:
Religious Aspect.jpg

There are plenty of Aspects, that can be either shared between the different Protestant religions, or be unique to them. This is the list of all the aspects available to Lutheran churches:
Religious Aspect2.jpg

Religious Aspect3.jpg

Religious Aspect4.jpg

Religious Aspect5.jpg

And this is what it looks like when you decide to pick one of them:
Translated Bibles.jpg

The base number of Religious Aspects that define each Church is 3, although this is subject to review, as usual. And it is possible to have entirely different and unique aspects per religion, since it’s a scriptable/moddable feature. Furthermore, Religious Aspects can have an impact on the relations a country has with others who use Religious Aspects. Since the aspects are partially shared between the faiths, this could lead to unlikely friendships… and hostilities.

Let’s now move on to the next religion, Calvinism, which is quite similar in structure to Lutheranism. It also spawns during the Reformation situation, it also has Calvinist Preachers that spread it, and it also uses Religious Aspects and Actions:
Calvinist Preachers.png

Calvinism tooltip.jpg

Calvinist panel.jpg

Calvin.jpg

Fun fact, Calvin has ended up being the Bishop (=ruler) of Basel in our save game!

Finally, we have Anglicanism. This Protestant religion doesn’t trigger through the situation, but as an event for England that may trigger after the Reformation is active:
Act of Supremacy.jpg

Ignore the broken loc, it appears like that because I used a console command to trigger it.

If we decided to Take command of the Church, a new religion will be created:
Take command of the Church.jpg

Anglicanism2.jpg

This is its overview and panel; Anglicanism starts with some more Religious Actions available:
Anglicanism.jpg

Anglican Religious Actions.jpg

Last, but not least, we have a couple of religions that also share the religious aspects, but are not necessarily tied to the Reformation situation. This includes Lollardy and Hussitism, which will be created together with their corresponding reformer, and the earlier catholic heresies of Bogomilism, Catharism, Paulicianism, and Waldensian.

The last feature we’re going to take a look at today is another situation, the War of Religions. This is the ending to all the narratives related to the Catholic and Protestant Churches, a fight for the religious supremacy over Europe, centered over the Holy Roman Empire, with the Thirty Years' War as inspiration:
War of Religion1.jpg

War of Religion2.jpg

War of Religion3.jpg

Two International Organizations will be created, the Protestant Union and the Catholic League:
Protestant Union.jpg

Catholic League.jpg

And this is the panel for the situation, which both sides, their relative strengths, the possibility to join one side or the other, etc.:
War of Religion4.jpg

An inconclusive result may lead to the negotiation of the Peace of Westphalia between the members of both Leagues and will alter the religious laws of the Holy Roman Empire.

… And that’s all for today! Next week, @Johan will come back once again to show more of the most recent changes and tweaks in the game. Cheers!
 
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Instead of having only 3 aspects, would it be possible to have as many aspects as you want except each aspect taken increases significantly the cost of the next one ?
Or have you considered making aspects work a bit like laws ? You could separate the reformation in several thematic aspects (like vision on bible, vision on baptism, vision on communion...) which would contain several aspects the country can choose. That way you wouldn't have weird things happening like one protestant country not having any opinion on the bible, and you would still get the very cool mechanic of countries being closer to countries who have the same aspects
 
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What the actual f*ck? Friend. Are you okay? Do you need me to call someone? DM if you need something please.
I was totally fine, but slightly less so now that you've dismissed my concerns and honest inquiry. If you harbor hatred for ethnic, religious and LGBTQ minorities I think that fact should be brought to the attention of the moderators. As a gay man I'm really proud the paradox Interactive forum has been a vibrant, open and inclusive platform for minority voices. I would hate for that to change by allowing racist incels and russian bots to thrive on the platform. So I think you should clarify your stance on the following three broad topics.

1. Adolf Hitler, fascism and the Holocaust

2. BIPOC and immigrant rights

3. LGBTQ+ and feminist empowerment
 
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I was totally fine, but slightly less so now that you've dismissed my concerns and honest inquiry. If you harbor hatred for ethnic, religious and LGBTQ minorities I think that fact should be brought to the attention of the moderators. As a gay man I'm really proud the paradox Interactive forum has been a vibrant, open and inclusive platform for minority voices. I would hate for that to change by allowing racist incels and russian bots to thrive on the platform. So I think you should clarify your stance on the following three broad topics.

1. Adolf Hitler, fascism and the Holocaust

2. BIPOC and immigrant rights

3. LGBTQ+ and feminist empowerment
What would be your conclusion if he said he's gay for Hitler?
 
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I was totally fine, but slightly less so now that you've dismissed my concerns and honest inquiry. If you harbor hatred for ethnic, religious and LGBTQ minorities I think that fact should be brought to the attention of the moderators. As a gay man I'm really proud the paradox Interactive forum has been a vibrant, open and inclusive platform for minority voices. I would hate for that to change by allowing racist incels and russian bots to thrive on the platform. So I think you should clarify your stance on the following three broad topics.

1. Adolf Hitler, fascism and the Holocaust

2. BIPOC and immigrant rights

3. LGBTQ+ and feminist empowerment
Sir, this is a Wendy's
 
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I was totally fine, but slightly less so now that you've dismissed my concerns and honest inquiry. If you harbor hatred for ethnic, religious and LGBTQ minorities I think that fact should be brought to the attention of the moderators. As a gay man I'm really proud the paradox Interactive forum has been a vibrant, open and inclusive platform for minority voices. I would hate for that to change by allowing racist incels and russian bots to thrive on the platform. So I think you should clarify your stance on the following three broad topics.

1. Adolf Hitler, fascism and the Holocaust

2. BIPOC and immigrant rights

3. LGBTQ+ and feminist empowerment
Dude, your overthinking things and you need to calm down. Their disagree could just be a careless decision with not much thought put into it. Accussing someone of such terrible things because of such a simple and mindless action as hitting disagree is unwarranted. Hear him out before jumping to conclusions.
 
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I was totally fine, but slightly less so now that you've dismissed my concerns and honest inquiry. If you harbor hatred for ethnic, religious and LGBTQ minorities I think that fact should be brought to the attention of the moderators. As a gay man I'm really proud the paradox Interactive forum has been a vibrant, open and inclusive platform for minority voices. I would hate for that to change by allowing racist incels and russian bots to thrive on the platform. So I think you should clarify your stance on the following three broad topics.

1. Adolf Hitler, fascism and the Holocaust

2. BIPOC and immigrant rights

3. LGBTQ+ and feminist empowerment

You are clearly unhinged and not well,.bordering psychosis. Please do not engage me again unless is to tell me that you need me to get you help.

Have a good day.
 
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I was totally fine, but slightly less so now that you've dismissed my concerns and honest inquiry. If you harbor hatred for ethnic, religious and LGBTQ minorities I think that fact should be brought to the attention of the moderators. As a gay man I'm really proud the paradox Interactive forum has been a vibrant, open and inclusive platform for minority voices. I would hate for that to change by allowing racist incels and russian bots to thrive on the platform. So I think you should clarify your stance on the following three broad topics.

1. Adolf Hitler, fascism and the Holocaust

2. BIPOC and immigrant rights

3. LGBTQ+ and feminist empowerment
What is with the witch hunt man? You simply had a different opinion on wether that other guy was being antisemitic or not.
 
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I hope not, that might be an even worse option, somehow.

Even if every soldier on the ground was so totally subscribed to predeterminism, this portrayal would have them stand like robots, trying the same approaches no matter what happens during the course of battle. If this is what it's meant to depict, clearly it isn't based on any historical reality. Prussia was Lutheran, and thus espoused predetermist theology, but it's generals didn't go into every battle trying one tactic and then... hoping? The soldiers didn't just keep attacking the same way without faltering or surging. Random chance, which I'd always assumed is what the dice rolls are for, does not somehow not affect Lutherans.

Reading a Prussian military manual, they do not say to arrive at the field of battle and not adapt tactics or adjust to what the enemy is doing, because God has preordained how it will end. They didn't start to get flanked and go "Damn, guess it's my time!" They were still human and should be depicted as such.

Either way, the doctrine as portrayed in game has nothing to do with actual theological determinism - which is largely concerned with the question of if humans have free will and can earn salvation through doing good deeds (to almost criminally over-simplify the issue), not whether humans have some sort of unstoppable inertia and shouldn't try to survive. The way it's shown would make any denomination espousing predeterminism of the most extreme and inhuman cults in history, if it were real.

I think us trying to rationalize this into real terms is futile, as I believe it's meant to be a funny, unique, but not at all historically or theologically accurate mechanic. It's not really meant to conform in any way to reality, I dearly hope.
Didn't think about it this way indeed... I still find having SOMETHING about it in game would be good...

Maybe a higher impact of the random die roll then ? Or as others asked, a pure removal of it.
 
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Didn't think about it this way indeed... I still find having SOMETHING about it in game would be good...

Maybe a higher impact of the random die roll then ? Or as others asked, a pure removal of it.
That actually sounds really interesting! Perhaps if 1d6 => 5, add one, if 1d6 <= 2, subtract one. It still wouldn't align all that well with predestination, but it's interesting!
 
So where do Hussites fall into his?
 
That actually sounds really interesting! Perhaps if 1d6 => 5, add one, if 1d6 <= 2, subtract one. It still wouldn't align all that well with predestination, but it's interesting!
I think it makes sense that a worldview based on predestination (even if only for the salvation of the souls, indeed) would have a different relationship to randomness.

But I don't have that many ideas about how that could properly be represented in PC, indeed
 
Shouldn't it be the other way around, though, with Calvinism as state religion but with a majority Lutheran population that is perfectly tolerated by the state? Consider that, when Elector John Sigismund of Brandenburg officially converted from Lutheranism to Calvinism in 1613, he did initially expect that most of his Lutheran subjects would follow suit, and his Calvinist officials and advisers even drew up a proposal outlining several measures to be carried out by the state in order to convert the populace (stocking the universities with Calvinist appointees, reforming the Liturgy in order to purge it from Lutheran customs, obliging priests to comply with these reforms...). But when he tried to implement these measures, unrest and resistance followed and he had to back off, leading to Branderburg (and then Prussia's) rather unique historical situation of being a Lutheran-majority country ruled by a Calvinist non-proselythising court.
I’d say that in backing off Brandenburg basically switched back to Lutheranism, but the individual characters in the court remained personally Calvinist. The alternative would be remaining Calvinist but going all in of tolerance for heretics, and that doesn’t feel right since given that the reforms were halted or reversed, as opposed to being modified to facilitate freedom of religion. It’s a very unusual case though, you’re correct that representing it mechanically is easier said than done.
 
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It costs stability, besides Religious Influence, to change the existing ones. And we could add an implementation time for them, if it's something the community wants.
If you go with an implementation time I would have any of the benefits and negative affects that are attached to the action will be prorated out across the implementation time and not just a binary state change after X time. I hope this will also be the normal for any 'implementation time'
 
Huh, i thought Johan said Tinto Talks are here to listen to community. I must have been mistaken and that was actually not a case. With 4x amount of provinces there is a perfect opportuinity to make reformation more interesting, but i guess modders will do the job you folks should.
Listen to doesn't mean blindly follow, but I guess you will just ignore this.
 
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