Pressing other people’s claims

[babgzus]

I did some digging but couldn’t find an answer to what I’m trying to figure out. I apologize if this is a re-hash but I appreciate any help.

I’m assuming I’m missing something because I’m sure what’s happening is intended.

The phenomenon I’m seeing is whenever I press a claim for someone else they almost never are able to hold onto the title. Most of the time I don’t care too much as whoever deposes them remains my vassal but on occasion it’s family and I want them to keep the title.

How it usually goes is they get the main title and typically one county, sometimes also a duchy is it’s a kingdom I won for them. They start dead broke with no military. The previous ruler becomes their vassal with most of the territory and maa they had previously as well as a bad attitude from being deposed, and they typically make a move to knock off the person I put in charge as soon as they can.

When this happens I can’t do anything to help. The only way I’ve been able to navigate this is to gift huge amounts of gold and then I’m just hoping they actually buy mercs and then that they also use them properly. It’s still a toss up and plenty of times it doesn’t cut it and they still lose the title.

It seems silly to me that I can go to war to put someone on a throne and then am completely unable to help them keep it.

Am I missing something? It feels like I must be.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Nope, this hasnt been touched since release

 

[DeanTheDull]

Am I missing something? It feels like I must be.

Quick guess- are you pressing the Kingdom-level claim first?


You are identifying one of the main strategic challenges of CK3. How you deal with it is what makes the non-conquest parts of CK a strategy game. How do you shape the map so that someone other than yourself stays on top?

There are various ways to approach this, but if you actually want someone to stay on top, the one I'd recommend most is don't try to usurp an entire Kingdom all at once. Give them a power base first.


Yes, you do need to give a new person gold and resources. But the biggest thing is a domain worth the name. This is what provides the beneficiary the income base for bribes, activities, amenities, and of course MAA to stay in power in war, and levies to deter faction revolts.

The dynamic you described of having only one county on hand really only applies if you have an unlanded character and you press their claim against landed character. Specifically, against a landed character whose personal domain is within the titular realm. In these cases, the person gets to keep the rest of their domain, even as the new ruler gets the minimum 1 county.

The thing is, if your character has a claim to the Kingdom country X that belongs to ruler Y, he (or she) should generally also have a claim on the duchy. Often the duchy of the current ruler.

When you press a duchy claim to take a duchy away from someone, this is often a lot more impactful on the relative beneficiaries. The King of Wherever can't keep any of the counties in that duchy as it moves to 'your' realm. Which means 'your' beneficiary is likely to claim it all (and any vassals beneath. It will be the King who is reduced to holding a fraction of their domain / usurping a single 1 county from another vassal.

What this means is that you spend a first war setting your beneficiary up in 'their' new duchy. During this time you can build them some buildings, restore control, get their economy going. By the time a truce expires, you have a (hopefully) self-sufficient Duke who has a competent domain, a healthy income, and won't fold at a stiff breeze.

If you're really cheeky, you revoke the title, add elective to it, and then hand it back. Elective on a duchy title tends to keep it together, so your beneficiary / probable dynast has a way to keep a strong domain even if they lose the Kingdom later.

Then you press the Kingdom claim, so that you have a compentent-duke rather than a weak one-county count-in-all-but-title on top.


You'll still need to plan for the gifts and the alliance support, but you'd be surprised just how much more resilient they can be, and how much less help they need from you.

 

[babgzus]

That helps thank you. I am pressing the highest title first, usually kingdom but sometimes duchy. I’ve had the same problem with duchy but that’s when there’s no kingdom involved so it’s just a microcosm of the kingdom issue with slightly higher success rate.

I’ll try to be more patient and not blame the failure on my nephew when I basically set him up to lose.

Thanks again! Good stuff.

 

[WTH666444]

That helps thank you. I am pressing the highest title first, usually kingdom but sometimes duchy. I’ve had the same problem with duchy but that’s when there’s no kingdom involved so it’s just a microcosm of the kingdom issue with slightly higher success rate.

I’ll try to be more patient and not blame the failure on my nephew when I basically set him up to lose.

Thanks again! Good stuff.

If he's part of your realm, you could always just revoke the kingdom after your family member loses it. You, then, should be able to hand him all the lands of the former king, twice deposed.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Quick guess- are you pressing the Kingdom-level claim first?


You are identifying one of the main strategic challenges of CK3. How you deal with it is what makes the non-conquest parts of CK a strategy game. How do you shape the map so that someone other than yourself stays on top?

There are various ways to approach this, but if you actually want someone to stay on top, the one I'd recommend most is don't try to usurp an entire Kingdom all at once. Give them a power base first.


Yes, you do need to give a new person gold and resources. But the biggest thing is a domain worth the name. This is what provides the beneficiary the income base for bribes, activities, amenities, and of course MAA to stay in power in war, and levies to deter faction revolts.

The dynamic you described of having only one county on hand really only applies if you have an unlanded character and you press their claim against landed character. Specifically, against a landed character whose personal domain is within the titular realm. In these cases, the person gets to keep the rest of their domain, even as the new ruler gets the minimum 1 county.

The thing is, if your character has a claim to the Kingdom country X that belongs to ruler Y, he (or she) should generally also have a claim on the duchy. Often the duchy of the current ruler.

When you press a duchy claim to take a duchy away from someone, this is often a lot more impactful on the relative beneficiaries. The King of Wherever can't keep any of the counties in that duchy as it moves to 'your' realm. Which means 'your' beneficiary is likely to claim it all (and any vassals beneath. It will be the King who is reduced to holding a fraction of their domain / usurping a single 1 county from another vassal.

What this means is that you spend a first war setting your beneficiary up in 'their' new duchy. During this time you can build them some buildings, restore control, get their economy going. By the time a truce expires, you have a (hopefully) self-sufficient Duke who has a competent domain, a healthy income, and won't fold at a stiff breeze.

If you're really cheeky, you revoke the title, add elective to it, and then hand it back. Elective on a duchy title tends to keep it together, so your beneficiary / probable dynast has a way to keep a strong domain even if they lose the Kingdom later.

Then you press the Kingdom claim, so that you have a compentent-duke rather than a weak one-county count-in-all-but-title on top.


You'll still need to plan for the gifts and the alliance support, but you'd be surprised just how much more resilient they can be, and how much less help they need from you.

Or the game could actually work properly, so that attempting to depose the king you just enthroned, would be a war against you, that should they win, would give them independence, rather than you just meekly accepting the guy you just deposed as a vassal king of yours. This issue demonstrates many of cks flaws, you cant interact with your vassals vassal, you can only be vassal to one liege at a time not more, a rulers strength is their men at arms not their levies

 

[kgptzac]

Or the game could actually work properly

I'm pretty sure the current way it works is proper, just not most of us want it to work. What you're asking can be achieved using mods like More Interactive Vassals as there will be ways to join in the vassal's civil wars, but if they cave to their faction demand and abdicate, then nothing can be done. The important things, as mentioned, is target title is already in your realm, and for most players, that is enough.

 

[babgzus]

So I got to try this today and it didn’t go how I thought it would.

As an empire pressing a kingdom claim would result in my son in law holding the kingdom and a barony. Not good. So I look at pressing his duchy claim and it would result in him holding the duchy.. and a barony. Not really better. So I guess I’m supposed to do a couple county claims then the duchy then the kingdom? 20+ years of truce plus the actual war time? Yikes.

I don’t have the patience for that. I pressed the kingdom. Then I retracted my new kings vassals, revoked their titles, and gave the titles back to him. After about 50 points of tyrany he had a duchy and a handful of counties. Silly workaround but I can eat the opinion malus at this point.

Time will tell if he can hold the title. My fingers are crossed.

 

[EphemeralToast]

I pressed the kingdom. Then I retracted my new kings vassals, revoked their titles, and gave the titles back to him. After about 50 points of tyrany he had a duchy and a handful of counties. Silly workaround but I can eat the opinion malus at this point.

Be aware that all the retracted counties are going to have low control and thus be paying out less than you might wish for quite some time. If son-in-law is still your vassal you may wish to help out by using your marshall to increase control.

Also, his new vassals hate him (probably). Gifting artifacts with +vassal opinion or -short reign penalty on them may help.

Best of luck to the new usurper monarch.

 

[DiabloDeVille]

Be aware that all the retracted counties are going to have low control and thus be paying out less than you might wish for quite some time. If son-in-law is still your vassal you may wish to help out by using your marshall to increase control.

Also, his new vassals hate him (probably). Gifting artifacts with +vassal opinion or -short reign penalty on them may help.

Best of luck to the new usurper monarch.

If you revoke the duchy, the counties within the de jure duchy which are also revoked wont lose control