Dynasty legacy thread: is it time for a rebalancing and improvement?

[Zylathas]

So, I wanna talk about dynasty legacies. Overall I think its a fun and engaging system that could do with some (small) improvements. What I mostly see is that some rebalancing could be done, blood and kin are too OP and some of the others aren't that interesting at all. In my opinion glory, customs, legitimacy and the heroic bloodline are the worst offenders. Its also a shame that the nomadic dynasty legacy does not have modifiers incase you aren't nomadic anymore as a dynasty, which makes it entirely useless at that point.

But what I also think is that its time to open up the dynasty legacies of both Iberia & the Norse. There are mods that currently do this, they tie it to certain cultural traditions. Personally I think that tying legacies to culture & religion is the way to go. In fact, I would support if we got a few more legacies in this same style.

What do you think should be done with dynasty legacies, if anything?

 

[Betheven]

I hope they never nerf Blood legacy

 

[DeanTheDull]

What do you think should be done with dynasty legacies, if anything?

Specify what the mechanical purpose of the legacies are. Are they for you, the play character, to be personally more powerful? Or are they more for your dynasty, to help them succeed where you aren't there to personally bail them out? Are some for specific playstyles? That's fine too.


It would also help to be clear on standards of evaluation. Like, you say this-

blood and kin are too OP

-but I am on record of considering Blood incredibly overrated on any sort of 'meta' level. On a purely objective, it takes way so long to make a difference that most players would functionally 'win' a campaign before benefiting from it much. Blood does not benefit the character whose lifetime you start the tree in. It often doesn't even benefit the second generation character who could already be born by then. It struggles to make an appreciable difference for the third generation as well, because you don't actually need Blood for a eugenics program.

And this doesn't event start with how Eugenics programs in CK3 are fundamentally double-win mechanics, not win mechanics. It's best for players already in a position of dominance, but it is very rare for eugenics traits, even Genius, to be able to turn around a loosing war or save a benefiting dynast. Even Genius is a bonus largely reserved for the player, since the AI don't jump lifestyles like humans do and so don't benefit from the XP gain rates to the same degree.

Blood is the epitome of a niche / playstyle-specific legacy. It's very good for the specific thing it tries to do, but it's not trying to be much beyond that, or even much benefit to the dynasty as a whole.

On the other hand, you also judge other traits in terms of-

In my opinion glory, customs, legitimacy and the heroic bloodline are the worst offenders.

And I be like- why you be dissing glory like that?

The glory legacy tree is arguably the single strongest powergame legacy for a player to rise and snowball, and for the dynasty to survive and thrive without you. +30 marriage acceptance, or +1 rank marriage level/alliance power and +1 marriage, is great. +1 knight accolade (and +1 knight) is great. Faster personal schemes is great. Fewer factions is great. +1 sway scheme and +10 general opinion is great.

These are all great buffs. Players in particular can best leverage the marriage alliance, accolade, and vassal limit to the max. More importantly, the tree also buffs that are not only good for the player, but great for the dynasty more generally. Players may not need the general opinion, faction mitigation, or sway scheme buffs... but that's a different issue, and doesn't mean they don't disproportionately help the player's relatives.


And this comes back to 'how are we supposed to be considering these?'

Just on the basis of what you claimed was OP versus worst, one of your OP candidates only matters generations down the line, well after most campaigns end, and one of your 'worst' candidates can... neutralize your greatest threats, get the biggest regional beat stick to win your wars for you, and produce claimants for major powers / empires, and all the accolade-MAA shenanigans to punch well above your rank and tech level, all in the first generation / first two legacies.

 

[47pik]

Yeah they could use another pass. Far from the worst offender, but I don’t love the system. Not even sure how you fix it though.

 

[WTH666444]

Heroic is situational (when you have a historic seed and want lots of claims; Roman gives you access to all of Arabia, Italia and Maghreb), glory is good, customs is also good. Amongst my first choices.

If we can't even disagree about what's good, balance seems better than you make it out to be.

 

[frostbiyt]

I always skip the blood legacy, since it feels like magic. How does having a famous family translate to increasing the liklihood of passing on a genetic trait?

And this doesn't event start with how Eugenics programs in CK3 are fundamentally double-win mechanics, not win mechanics. It's best for players already in a position of dominance, but it is very rare for eugenics traits, even Genius, to be able to turn around a loosing war or save a benefiting dynast.

There's a term for this from MtG: "Winmore". For when a card is only good when you're already winning, so it only makes you win harder.

I would argue that it's not entirely winmore, because getting herculean consistently is very beneficial to a playthrough, given how long those characters live. Beyond that though, I think I'd agree.

 

[FondMemberofSociety]

Its also a shame that the nomadic dynasty legacy does not have modifiers incase you aren't nomadic anymore as a dynasty, which makes it entirely useless at that point.

I think a renown refund should be the way to handle this. Settled life is very different from the nomad way after all, and some things considered ok in a nomadic context (e.g marrying your dad's concubines) is generally a NO for settled people.

 

[DeanTheDull]

I always skip the blood legacy, since it feels like magic. How does having a famous family translate to increasing the liklihood of passing on a genetic trait?


There's a term for this from MtG: "Winmore". For when a card is only good when you're already winning, so it only makes you win harder.

I would argue that it's not entirely winmore, because getting herculean consistently is very beneficial to a playthrough, given how long those characters live. Beyond that though, I think I'd agree.

Aye. I'd even go further to say that the herculean trait is the single best eugenics trait in terms of 'help win' rather than 'win more.' Extra health is extra years to benefit from those lifestyle traits, especially the most-powerful traits you pick up early but which Genius only gives an advantage of months-earlier rather than years-longer. Extra health is survival from bad RNG where a less robust character might die and have a succession crisis. Prowess is survival in those rare-but-deadly prowess checks.

But most discussion on blood is thinking of those Geniuses, and even with robust the generation-lag of the blood legacy's effects versus just getting robust the old fashioned way...

 

[32ndLaw]

One of the reasons blood is OP is because it's always good no matter what you're doing, unless you're going for a very short game that you plan to be over within a generation or two in which case you probably aren't unlocking many legacies anyway. Most of the other choices make you decide what you're going to focus on and just accept that you aren't going to get much out of it if you do anything else, but there's no situation that isn't made easier by having a character with a bunch of powerful traits.

I dislike the current approach of giving every new feature a bloodline that goes with it. I think instead of giving Admin/Nomad their own bloodlines maybe some of the old ones should have been change up to spread those perks around in already existing places. Reducing what should be a cool sort of way of reflecting your dynasty's legacy and reputation into "just pick the thing you're already doing and get some buffs to it" is a bit of a letdown.

Oh, and culture restricted legacies shouldn't exist. North Germanic ones should probably be open to all tribals. Iberian ones should be open to all non-tribal / non-nomadic, Iranian should probably be open to all clan, etc.

 

[WTH666444]

One of the reasons blood is OP is because it's always good no matter what you're doing, unless you're going for a very short game that you plan to be over within a generation or two in which case you probably aren't unlocking many legacies anyway. Most of the other choices make you decide what you're going to focus on and just accept that you aren't going to get much out of it if you do anything else, but there's no situation that isn't made easier by having a character with a bunch of powerful traits.

I dislike the current approach of giving every new feature a bloodline that goes with it. I think instead of giving Admin/Nomad their own bloodlines maybe some of the old ones should have been change up to spread those perks around in already existing places. Reducing what should be a cool sort of way of reflecting your dynasty's legacy and reputation into "just pick the thing you're already doing and get some buffs to it" is a bit of a letdown.

Oh, and culture restricted legacies shouldn't exist. North Germanic ones should probably be open to all tribals. Iberian ones should be open to all non-tribal / non-nomadic, Iranian should probably be open to all clan, etc.

I have never picked blood. If you can marry on your own, it‘s easy to find someone with one good trait and, with enough children and probabilities, you‘ll see someone who has the trait in full, marry that child to someone else, and the same repeats for it, with enough children.

 

[Septimus the Merciful]

-but I am on record of considering Blood incredibly overrated on any sort of 'meta' level. On a purely objective, it takes way so long to make a difference that most players would functionally 'win' a campaign before benefiting from it much. Blood does not benefit the character whose lifetime you start the tree in. It often doesn't even benefit the second generation character who could already be born by then. It struggles to make an appreciable difference for the third generation as well, because you don't actually need Blood for a eugenics program.

And this doesn't event start with how Eugenics programs in CK3 are fundamentally double-win mechanics, not win mechanics. It's best for players already in a position of dominance, but it is very rare for eugenics traits, even Genius, to be able to turn around a loosing war or save a benefiting dynast. Even Genius is a bonus largely reserved for the player, since the AI don't jump lifestyles like humans do and so don't benefit from the XP gain rates to the same degree.

Blood is the epitome of a niche / playstyle-specific legacy. It's very good for the specific thing it tries to do, but it's not trying to be much beyond that, or even much benefit to the dynasty as a whole.

While I agree with your basic premise, I disagree that blood doesn't benefit your dynasty as a whole.

Blood is OP because it snowballs for your dynasty and ensures stability. Let's take my favorite trait Herculean. By the third generation, all of your offspring can have the trait. This means every future generation has a higher marriage acceptance, better knights, longer life, and a better chance of not dying from plagues. All of your spare heirs are good heirs. All your relatives' spare heirs are good heirs.

For example, I once gave the kingdom of Valencia to a cousin with herculean and intelligent traits. He had Herculean kids, and level 3 measles swept through Iberia. In the aftermath, one of his kids died, but every other realm or vassal around him was brought to their knees. The Muslim ruler of Andalusia, who was stronger, lost almost all his children, and in the ensuing years, a large portion of his realm was quickly swallowed up by my cousin.

And I be like- what you be dissing glory like that?

The glory legacy tree is arguably the single strongest powergame legacy for a player to rise and snowball, and for the dynasty to survive and thrive without you. +30 marriage acceptance, or +1 rank marriage level/alliance power and +1 marriage, is great. +1 knight accolade (and +1 knight) is great. Faster personal schemes is great. Fewer factions is great. +1 sway scheme and +10 general opinion is great.

These are all great buffs. Players in particular can best leverage the marriage alliance, accolade, and vassal limit to the max. More importantly, the tree also buffs that are not only good for the player, but great for the dynasty more generally. Players may not need the general opinion, faction mitigation, or sway scheme buffs... but that's a different issue, and doesn't mean they don't disproportionately help the player's relatives.

I guess it depends on the way you play, but for me, glory is one of the worst. Marriage acceptance only matters when your dynasty lacks renown, and this can be worked around by going into intrigue and collecting hooks, and kidnapping marriage partners. Once your dynasty reaches the Noteworthy level of renown, marriages are more or less trivial. I would argue a player's relatives benefit more from blood and especially kin.

Aye. I'd even go further to say that the herculean trait is the single best eugenics trait in terms of 'help win' rather than 'win more.' Extra health is extra years to benefit from those lifestyle traits, especially the most-powerful traits you pick up early but which Genius only gives an advantage of months-earlier rather than years-longer. Extra health is survival from bad RNG where a less robust character might die and have a succession crisis. Prowess is survival in those rare-but-deadly prowess checks.

But most discussion on blood is thinking of those Geniuses, and even with robust the generation-lag of the blood legacy's effects versus just getting robust the old fashioned way...

Agree. The herculean trait is definitely the best hereditary trait. Genius can be a double-edged sword if you have a large dynasty with ambitious/deceitful characters. Herculean is just all positive: attraction, better knights, longer life.

 

[Eltar1]

Ok, so, I do think there's some things that could be changed about Legacies, but I think that they are overall reasonably well balanced at this point, with some outliers.

I especially can't understand the 'Nomadic legacy is useless without Nomadic Government' point of view, which... yeah no, it gives powerful bonuses even if you aren't the prefered government type, much more than say Bureaucratic.

So, here's my evaluation of all the DLC specific Legacy tracks, I might do the Base Game ones later.

Adventure:

This one is alright. It mostly seems to be themed around the memetic Haestein playthrough with Varangian Adventures all over the map. It also has some great generally useful bonuses, like halving the cost of Send Gift, which is great, and the bonus army movement speed and supply capacity are great especially for raiding tribals/nomads. I think it's fine to leave it like this.

Pillage:

This one is really good, especially for raiding and if you have access to great Heavy Infantry units (like the Norse do). But even after you lose the ability to raid, it's still very good for Sieges and gives a variety of bonuses that are always good, like increased chance to capture valuable characters and ransom them for more gold and prestige. Once again, I wouldn't really make any changes.

Metropolitan:

This one is all about Cities and you want many cities to take advantage of this. I think it works best if you are Administrative, since they can hold cities without penalties. That said, it's frontloaded, with +20% County Development per City in said County being very powerful and the Town Maven traits providing all your dynasty members with bonus Stewardship and Learning. Overall, I don't think it needs to be changed significantly, maybe buff Tier 4 a bit, since it's kinda underwhelming.

Coterie:

I think this is the worst Dynasty Legacy in the entire game. It only really works for the Clan Government, since Feudal and Administrative especially are going to create Cadet Branches of your Dynasty as soon possible. They can't do that if you are a Clan Government, in which case this Legacy track becomes more useful.

That said, the bonuses aren't even that good for its niche and I feel like it can use a buff. For example, being able to disinherit your kids without a Renown penalty isn't that great, since it also reduces prestige and gives you a large Opinion debuff from your vassals.

There's also the one ability to call other House members into their wars even if they are not the House Head. The player is almost always gonna be the House Head, so this is mostly for the AI. But I don't think it's that good for them either.

Overall, it's best to think of this as the Legacy track for playing as the Clan Government.

For possible changes for Coterie, I guess I'd have Tier 1 also increase Aptitude for all Court Positions for House Members by 10, Have Tier 2 effect moved to Dynasty and doubled to 20% if they are from your House, have Tier 4 also boost the speed of the Find Secrets spymaster task and have Tier 5 also increase acceptance chance for revoking Titles from House Members and give +10 House opinion.

Brilliance:

The Dynasty Legacy for playing as a Persian culture with the Clan Government. The most narrow in application, but some of its bonuses also work regardless of Government Type or Culture. Embellish Capital is costly, but is great if you play Tall. You can also combine this Legacy track with Glory to get super fast Personal Schemes. I think it's fine, great when you play in Persia and has enough generally applicable bonuses that it's still relevant even if you change government type and culture.

Bureaucracy:

Bureaucracy has less generally applicable bonuses than Brilliance and you need to be Administrative to take advantage of it. That said, Tier 5 also reduces Claimant factions, which is strong and generally applicable. You also get +0.1 Monthly Development for all of your Dynasty members and some Popular Opinion. And all the Administrative-specific bonuses are great. I think this one is fine as it is too.

Nomadic:

+10 Peace Acceptance is very strong, stacks with Peacemaker from the Gallant tree into being able to make the enemy surrender at 80% War Score. +1 to size of Men-at-Arms is also great and this is all Tier 3. This also gets many bonuses to Horse Archers, allows you to recruit a squad of Keshiqs, which are like a much better version of Heavy Horse Archers and bonuses to tributaries (everyone can have Tributaries). It also gives some nomadic-specific bonuses and raiding bonuses which are also strong.

In fact, the amount of bonuses that won't be applicable to non-nomadic rulers at all is on the lower end. I think that if anything, this legacy Track might be somewhat overpowered. About the only change I can think of is to move the Peace Acceptance to Tier 5 instead of Tier 3. I don't think it's overwhelmingly strong, but it has a lot of great stuff.

Customs:

A lot of Learn Language schemes bonuses, but it also makes Languages give bonus Cultural Acceptance, so it also makes them much more useful, among all the other Cultural Acceptance bonuses this track gives you. The Cultural Fascination Progress bonus is also great and the Celebrate Other Cultures decision is very strong and greatly boosts Development and Gold gain. Overall, this is the legacy track for when you are ruling a huge empire with many different cultures. No real changes needed.

Activities:

Greatly increased bonus XP to a number of different Leveled Traits like Traveler and substantial bonuses to Grand Activities and Pilgrimages. The highlights are Grand Wedding bonus acceptance and increased possibility of getting a Strong Hook and also Tier 5 for having the first Grand Activity a House Head hosts during their life free.

Those cheaper Grand Weddings also makes your AI Dynasty members host them more, which you can then attend for Stress loss and various bonuses like lifestyle XP. Overall, this one is great, especially Tier 5 free Grand Activity.

Heroic Bloodline:

Legitimizing Legend Seeds are the hardest to come by, so a free one once per game is good, that said, I'd give some small permanent bonus to it as well, like -10% Legend Upkeep Cost. Ancestral Claims depend on the legend itself, but some unique ones could end up with your dynasty having ancestral claims to half of Europe, so it's much better than you'd think. And if you are part of a huge empire, this is the best way for your dynasty to get a claim on that empire's title.

Aside from that, this legacy track also gives some traits only for the character that finishes the legend of a specific type (and they might already be at the end of their life by the time you finish this legend) and lower Legend Creation Cost (which is a drop in the bucket compared to the real gold sink, legend upkeep cost).

Tier 5 allows you to build a Legendary Watchtower building when you finish a Legend and that one basically boosts defensiveness of the county it's built in in a major way as well as giving a good boost to Man-At-Arms stationed there and increasing the size of Man-at-arms regiments by 1. If you play tall, this can be very strong.

Overall, I think this one is decent, goes to great if you build many Legendary Watchtowers. Maybe change the Legend Creation Cost price decrease to lower Legend Upkeep and give some small permanent bonus to Tier 1.

Legitimacy:

I think this one is underrated by people, but also that it needs some buffs.

Tier 1 is fine, some Popular Opinion, but +0.1 Control Growth is good, since AI is worse at managing Control than players. Especially good if you combine it with the Law legacy for +0.3 Control Growth for all Dynasty members.

Tier 2 is... yeah, +10% Legitimacy gain all the time would be alright maybe, but this one is limited to only the first 10 years in power. I think this one needs to just increase Legitimacy gain by 10% all the time and be doubled to 20% for the first 10 years in power.

Tier 3 unlocks the Espouse Legitimacy intent, which is a great way to farm Legitimacy.

Tier 4 reduces Claimant and Dissolution Factions against you, which is awesome for realm stability, especially combined with Tier 5 Bureaucracy and Tier 4 Glory.

Tier 5 allows you to have Level 5 education of the chosen type. Choose either Stewardship or Martial, they are the best ones. I think this one should also boost the Education Score of Dynasty Members, to make it more likely that Dynasty Member actually get that education or give a 50% chance for Dynasty Members who reach Level 4 education of the chosen type to get Level 5 instead. And maybe also boost Tutor Aptitude by 10.

Another thing is that for Administrative realms, the Tier 5 of this legacy track is seriously overshadowed by the Education Hall internal mansion upgrade, which unlocks all Tier 5 education traits and also boosts Tutor aptitude.

 

[WTH666444]

Ok, so, I do think there's some things that could be changed about Legacies, but I think that they are overall reasonably well balanced at this point, with some outliers.

I especially can't understand the 'Nomadic legacy is useless without Nomadic Government' point of view, which... yeah no, it gives powerful bonuses even if you aren't the prefered government type, much more than say Bureaucratic.

So, here's my evaluation of all the DLC specific Legacy tracks, I might do the Base Game ones later.

Adventure:

This one is alright. It mostly seems to be themed around the memetic Haestein playthrough with Varangian Adventures all over the map. It also has some great generally useful bonuses, like halving the cost of Send Gift, which is great, and the bonus army movement speed and supply capacity are great especially for raiding tribals/nomads. I think it's fine to leave it like this.

Pillage:

This one is really good, especially for raiding and if you have access to great Heavy Infantry units (like the Norse do). But even after you lose the ability to raid, it's still very good for Sieges and gives a variety of bonuses that are always good, like increased chance to capture valuable characters and ransom them for more gold and prestige. Once again, I wouldn't really make any changes.

Metropolitan:

This one is all about Cities and you want many cities to take advantage of this. I think it works best if you are Administrative, since they can hold cities without penalties. That said, it's frontloaded, with +20% County Development per City in said County being very powerful and the Town Maven traits providing all your dynasty members with bonus Stewardship and Learning. Overall, I don't think it needs to be changed significantly, maybe buff Tier 4 a bit, since it's kinda underwhelming.

Coterie:

I think this is the worst Dynasty Legacy in the entire game. It only really works for the Clan Government, since Feudal and Administrative especially are going to create Cadet Branches of your Dynasty as soon possible. They can't do that if you are a Clan Government, in which case this Legacy track becomes more useful.

That said, the bonuses aren't even that good for its niche and I feel like it can use a buff. For example, being able to disinherit your kids without a Renown penalty isn't that great, since it also reduces prestige and gives you a large Opinion debuff from your vassals.

There's also the one ability to call other House members into their wars even if they are not the House Head. The player is almost always gonna be the House Head, so this is mostly for the AI. But I don't think it's that good for them either.

Overall, it's best to think of this as the Legacy track for playing as the Clan Government.

For possible changes for Coterie, I guess I'd have Tier 1 also increase Aptitude for all Court Positions for House Members by 10, Have Tier 2 effect moved to Dynasty and doubled to 20% if they are from your House, have Tier 4 also boost the speed of the Find Secrets spymaster task and have Tier 5 also increase acceptance chance for revoking Titles from House Members and give +10 House opinion.

Brilliance:

The Dynasty Legacy for playing as a Persian culture with the Clan Government. The most narrow in application, but some of its bonuses also work regardless of Government Type or Culture. Embellish Capital is costly, but is great if you play Tall. You can also combine this Legacy track with Glory to get super fast Personal Schemes. I think it's fine, great when you play in Persia and has enough generally applicable bonuses that it's still relevant even if you change government type and culture.

Bureaucracy:

Bureaucracy has less generally applicable bonuses than Brilliance and you need to be Administrative to take advantage of it. That said, Tier 5 also reduces Claimant factions, which is strong and generally applicable. You also get +0.1 Monthly Development for all of your Dynasty members and some Popular Opinion. And all the Administrative-specific bonuses are great. I think this one is fine as it is too.

Nomadic:

+10 Peace Acceptance is very strong, stacks with Peacemaker from the Gallant tree into being able to make the enemy surrender at 80% War Score. +1 to size of Men-at-Arms is also great and this is all Tier 3. This also gets many bonuses to Horse Archers, allows you to recruit a squad of Keshiqs, which are like a much better version of Heavy Horse Archers and bonuses to tributaries (everyone can have Tributaries). It also gives some nomadic-specific bonuses and raiding bonuses which are also strong.

In fact, the amount of bonuses that won't be applicable to non-nomadic rulers at all is on the lower end. I think that if anything, this legacy Track might be somewhat overpowered. About the only change I can think of is to move the Peace Acceptance to Tier 5 instead of Tier 3. I don't think it's overwhelmingly strong, but it has a lot of great stuff.

Customs:

A lot of Learn Language schemes bonuses, but it also makes Languages give bonus Cultural Acceptance, so it also makes them much more useful, among all the other Cultural Acceptance bonuses this track gives you. The Cultural Fascination Progress bonus is also great and the Celebrate Other Cultures decision is very strong and greatly boosts Development and Gold gain. Overall, this is the legacy track for when you are ruling a huge empire with many different cultures. No real changes needed.

Activities:

Greatly increased bonus XP to a number of different Leveled Traits like Traveler and substantial bonuses to Grand Activities and Pilgrimages. The highlights are Grand Wedding bonus acceptance and increased possibility of getting a Strong Hook and also Tier 5 for having the first Grand Activity a House Head hosts during their life free.

Those cheaper Grand Weddings also makes your AI Dynasty members host them more, which you can then attend for Stress loss and various bonuses like lifestyle XP. Overall, this one is great, especially Tier 5 free Grand Activity.

Heroic Bloodline:

Legitimizing Legend Seeds are the hardest to come by, so a free one once per game is good, that said, I'd give some small permanent bonus to it as well, like -10% Legend Upkeep Cost. Ancestral Claims depend on the legend itself, but some unique ones could end up with your dynasty having ancestral claims to half of Europe, so it's much better than you'd think. And if you are part of a huge empire, this is the best way for your dynasty to get a claim on that empire's title.

Aside from that, this legacy track also gives some traits only for the character that finishes the legend of a specific type (and they might already be at the end of their life by the time you finish this legend) and lower Legend Creation Cost (which is a drop in the bucket compared to the real gold sink, legend upkeep cost).

Tier 5 allows you to build a Legendary Watchtower building when you finish a Legend and that one basically boosts defensiveness of the county it's built in in a major way as well as giving a good boost to Man-At-Arms stationed there. If you play tall, this can be worth it.

Overall, I think this one is decent. Maybe change the Legend Creation Cost price decrease to lower Legend Upkeep and give some small permanent bonus to Tier 1.

Legitimacy:

I think this one is underrated by people, but also that it needs some buffs.

Tier 1 is fine, some Popular Opinion, but +0.1 Control Growth is good, since AI is worse at managing Control than players. Especially good if you combine it with the Law legacy for +0.3 Control Growth for all Dynasty members.

Tier 2 is... yeah, +10% Legitimacy gain all the time would be alright maybe, but this one is limited to only the first 10 years in power. I think this one needs to just increase Legitimacy gain by 10% all the time and be doubled to 20% for the first 10 years in power.

Tier 3 unlocks the Espouse Legitimacy intent, which is a great way to farm Legitimacy.

Tier 4 reduces Claimant and Dissolution Factions against you, which is awesome for realm stability, especially combined with Tier 5 Bureaucracy and Tier 4 Glory.

Tier 5 allows you to have Level 5 education of the chosen type. Choose either Stewardship or Martial, they are the best ones. I think this one should also boost the Education Score of Dynasty Members, to make it more likely that Dynasty Member actually get that education or give a 50% chance for Dynasty Members who reach Level 4 education of the chosen type to get Level 5 instead. And maybe also boost Tutor Aptitude by 10.

Another thing is that for Administrative realms, the Tier 5 of this legacy track is seriously overshadowed by the Education Hall internal mansion upgrade, which unlocks all Tier 5 education traits and also boosts Tutor aptitude.

In defense of bureaucracy, I‘d mention that you have no reason to reform out of it. If you pick it, you won‘t ever lose its specific benefits.

Legendary Watchtowers are also much stronger than you think. For each, a flat +1 MaA size. You can easily build 7.

 

[Eltar1]

In defense of bureaucracy, I‘d mention that you have no reason to reform out of it. If you pick it, you won‘t ever lose its specific benefits.

Legendary Watchtowers are also much stronger than you think. For each, a flat +1 MaA size. You can easily build 7.

I don't think Bureaucracy is weak at all, it's strong and yeah, as you said, there's little benefit to becoming anything other than Administrative once you are one. And it has a few benefits that work for everyone. I forgot to mention the reduced build time in Domicile, which should also work for Adventurer Camps and Nomadic Capitals. I think it's fine as it is.

And yeah, I forgot that bonus for the Legendary Watchtower. Yeah, that's super strong if you can take advantage of that, which is easy if you keep making Holy Legends.

 

[hamid01]

I know this might not be directly related to the topic of balancing dynasty legacies, but something that really bothers me is when they block certain interactions or actions. In my opinion, dynasty legacies should only provide bonuses—they're meant to enhance and shape your dynasty, not limit your options.
Just my two cents

 

[Eltar1]

I know this might not be directly related to the topic of balancing dynasty legacies, but something that really bothers me is when they block certain interactions or actions. In my opinion, dynasty legacies should only provide bonuses—they're meant to enhance and shape your dynasty, not limit your options.
Just my two cents

I'm not aware of any Dynasty Legacy that blocks anything. The closest that comes to mind is Guile 5, which prevents the first successful Murder Scheme against a Dynasty Member (which can be annoying if your rivals are from another house in your Dynasty).

 

[hamid01]

I'm not aware of any Dynasty Legacy that blocks anything.

Just to give an example, the "Send to Varangian Guard" or "Unlocks the Share Secrets interaction with House members". It’s nothing deep , but it just slightly bothers. i want all my interactions pls!

 

[Eltar1]

Ok, here's the Base Game legacies evaluated:

Warfare:

Given how important warfare is in this game, this legacy track is strong. Overall gives you good war-related bonuses and makes your Dynasty members better as Knights. Tier 5 gives you +1 Man-at-Arms slot, which is probably the best War-related bonus you can get. House Guard should be ignored, because they are heavily overshadowed by everything else you could use that Man-at-Arms slot for.

About the only change I'd make here would be to make the House Guards units actually good.


Law:

Another strong legacy track.

Tier 1 has cheaper Hunts and Feasts, which also makes your Dynasty Members host them more. You can then attend them to lose stress and gain Prestige. Tier 2 increases Control Growth, which especially helps out the AI.

Bonus Stewardship XP is also good. The highlight is Tier 5, which gives +1 Domain Limit to everyone in your Dynasty (and +5 Controlled Territory Defender Advantage is also good). Bonus Domain Limit is harder to get now compared to the release version, so the value of this legacy track only grew.


Guile:

Guile is a double-edged sword. While it gives powerful bonuses to Intrigue, it also makes your Dynasty members better at scheming against you. Especially Tier 5 makes it much harder to get rid of other Dynasty Members. It says that the chance to prevent first murder scheme is 77% chance, but in my experience, it triggers all the time, so basically you need 2 successful Murder Schemes to get rid of each Dynasty member. This can get annoying in certain situations. But no idea how I'd change it, if it even needs to be changed.


Blood:

This legacy is frontloaded and seemingly both overrated and underrated.

Tier 1 and Tier 2 are honestly all you need if all you care about is good traits for your Dynasty. And they can be picked up very early on. Suffice to say, the traits are worth it, especially Fecund, Herculean and also Genius (which is a bit overrated).

Tier 3 reduces chance of negative traits, but that is easily avoided. Still, it's nice to have it.

Tier 4 is the worst one. It allows you to pick one genetic trait to show up more often in your dynasty. The selection is the Level 1 versions of the primary genetic traits (which you want to reinforce anyway), Fecund (which is great) and then some partially negative, but interesting genetic traits like Giant, Albino, Dwarf and Scaly. I always pick Fecund, it seems to be the obviously best choice, especially in combination with Tier 5.

That said, the problem is that the chance is really low. It's 5% for dynasty members and 10% if the Player Character is the parent. And if you choose one of the negative traits, the chance might be reduced by the Tier 3 legacy trait (not sure about that).

I think the chance should be increased, 10% for Dynasty Members, 15% if close family of Player Character are the parents and 20% if the Player Character is the parent. Also, if the Tier 3 trait reduces the chance of say Albino showing up if you pick it, then picking that Trait should also negate that Tier 3 perk for the Albino trait.

Tier 5 gives +5 Life Expectancy to your whole Dynasty. I think this is underrated, having more longer lived characters allows you to benefit from their high skills and perks for longer, especially useful in combination with the Tier 5 Kin legacy. That said, I do think it could use a small buff. Let's say it would also give a Small Health Boost in addition to the Life Expectancy.


Erudition:

I'm not a big fan of this one, but it has at least one great perk.

Tier 1 is alright, cheaper Guest recruitment is good to get a good councilor or Army Commander at the start, past that it mostly shines once you have Royal Court for better quality of Inspirations (since you attract better guests).

Tier 2 gives a slight boost to Piety gain, which I don't think matters that much. It should at least be doubled to +20%. The opinion boosts with Clergy or same faith are really low and depend on your faith, so you don't even get both. I think it should be changed to +10 for Clergy if Theocracy or +5 to Same Faith if Lay Clegy.

Tier 3 is great, bonus learning XP and +20% Development Growth.

Tier 4 is... well, Faith Creation and Reformation are something you will do like once a game, if ever, and if you do, all you need is a certain perk from the Theology tree that halves the cost. So the first bonus is kind of a waste, might be better if the religious system gets overhauled in the future. Bonus Piety from Pilgrimages is alright, so are the Faith-type specific bonuses.

Tier 5 is alright, but feels kinda underwhelming for Tier 5. I think that adding a +10% Cultural Fascination progress as a secondary bonus would be a good buff.


Glory:

This is one of the best legacy tracks in the game and probably the best one for making your AI Dynasty Members more successful.

Tier 1 gives +30 Marriage Acceptance, which basically makes you able to get a marriage to 1 Title Tier higher character. So instead of a Duke, you can get an alliance with the King.

Tier 2 gives +1 Knight and +1 Accolade, which is a good military boost, especially for lower tier rulers. +10% Prestige is more useful than Piety because of the Opinion gain from Level of Fame, cheaper mercenaries are good too.

Tier 3 gives Diplomacy XP and faster Personal Schemes, so aside from Romance and Seduce, you can also Sway and Befriend other characters much faster. Great in combination with the Brilliance legacy track.

Tier 4 is one of the few things that increases Vassal Limit, so it's great just for that. But it's far from the only great bonus here. It also Reduces Short Reign duration by 25% and reduces the willingness for vassals to your Claimant and Liberty factions. All of this makes the realms of your dynasty much more stable.

Tier 5 gives +10 General Opinion, which just makes everyone like you and your Dynasty members more and less likely to be hostile against them or join factions against them. It also gives everyone a dedicated Sway scheme slot, which further makes


Kin:

It think this one is good, but is especially great in combination with other legacy tracks.

Tier 1 is kinda underwhelming, I'd increase it to +15% Fertility and the Attraction Opinion to 10.

Tier 2 is great, it basically boosts the average Education Trait level of your whole dynasty by 1.

Tier 3 is great just for the Medium Disease Resistance Health Boost, makes it much less likely that your dynasty members are going to die in Plagues.

Tier 4 makes your Personal Scemes more effective if you use them on Dynasty Members. This can be useful if they all either rule their own realms or if you have a large realm where most of your vassals belong to your Dynasty. The House Paragon accolade boosts Renown gain in a major way, if you use Accolades.

Tier 5 makes your dynasty members gain a few bonus skill points over their life, which is nice, but not overwhelmingly so. The big bonus here is that they don't lose Prowess in old age, which means your Dynasty members can become great Knights and serve as your Knights for much longer. This really benefits in combination with the Blood legacy track to extend their lifespan further.

 

[Eltar1]

Just to give an example, the "Send to Varangian Guard" or "Unlocks the Share Secrets interaction with House members". It’s nothing deep , but it just slightly bothers. i want all my interactions pls!

I mean, that's the same thing with some interactions needing Lifestyle Perks to unlock, or are you against that too?

 

[hamid01]

I mean, that's the same thing with some interactions needing Lifestyle Perks to unlock, or are you against that too?

I guess Lifestyle perks bother me less because they feel more earned. You spend your whole life improving a certain aspect of your character, so it makes sense that after years of focus you'd unlock things like spying on two people at once or gaining special interactions. What bugs me is just when those kinds of actions are locked behind dynasty legacies, which are more abstract and supposed to represent broader, passive bonuses for your entire bloodline and not specific character development.