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Yes, we have to be careful with the concept of nation, which is anachronistic. The Poles were divided under different rules for a long of time, but they all called themselves Poles and so did other people.

For the ERE, I agree that the West didn't call the Byzantine Emperor "Roman", but I argue this was mostly for political and religious reasons. We also need to look outside of Western Europe where many other people (e.g. the Turks) did call them Romans.
Yeah, but that's why we need to establish some sort of baseline. The best solution (but absolutely not doable) would be to have dynamic naming from perspective of the played country. So- obviously- ERE would call itself "Basileia ton Rhomaion" but western countries would not necessarily entertain such a notion, instead calling it "Empire of the Greeks" (this is something that angered Romans to the extreme). Using titles legitimised them in itself- IIRC some Popes did call ERE emperors Roman Emperors during Komnenian dynasty period because due to their strife with (H)RE. But that was- again- a political tool and part of policy of reconciliation (which ultimately failed and paved road for Ottoman rule over the Balkans).
 
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So East Rome is shortened to Rome? And if someone forms Rome, the formable country with that name, there map says Rome for two countries? Does not sound right.
I'd argue that you shouldn't be able to form the Roman Empire if the Empire of the Romans still exists.
Just calling Rome, the actual name of the city, to an Empire that doesn't own Rome is just too ridiculous. Rome should be what the Roman Republic (the papal states formable after rebelion) gets shortened to.
History is full of ridiculous things... something this thread has in common. Thanks for being an example of that.
 
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It's not ridiculous seeing as that's what happened in history.

The what? Where are you getting this from?
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This.
 
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The best solution (but absolutely not doable)
The best doable solution is essentially what is already in the game right now but expanded. Right now the default is Byzantium and there is an option to change that to Eastern Roman Empire. What should happen is the Default becomes Empire of the Romans, and then multiple alternatives are available in the game rules for if you want to make your game worse.
 
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Are you OK? Why are you getting so aggressive over a dead Empire?
I'm fine, and I don't consider it aggressive to point out that your comments are ridiculous.

If you make a comment that is ignorant, ahistorical fantasy, then calling it ridiculous is rather tame
 
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There is no ignorance in my comment. I am merely pointing out the historical reality that is at odds with your assertion. Have a wonderful day... preferably with a book.

It is funny you say that because any academical book on Byzance will start by the obligatory naming convention where the author will offer a list of applicable name and state he/she will use Byzantine Empire anyway.

This is why I find Monty is staring at me 's meme so funny. It is 100% accurate if you ever bother to actually read any book or god forbid, have academical teaching.

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Beyond Byzantine history alone, it is a common theme in history academical studies to use debatable and mis-guiding names. We do it all the time.

For exemple, with significant more relevance for EU V, the Aztec Empire and the Inca Empire are obviously gross language abuse. For reasons, nobody care about it though.

Dont get me start on the contemporary usage of "Burgundy" to refer to a territory outside ... the Duchy of Burgundy. Which was itself outside of the territory of the original high medieval Kingdom of the Burgundians

The strawmen, the irony, the hilarity, the ignorance.

That is a not nice way to admit you have no argument or even clue of what we are speaking.

11th of July 212, Constitutio Antoniana, decreed that all free men in the Roman Empire were Roman Citizens. More than just the citizens within Rome the city itself. This map is from just 5 years later, but you get the picture. All of the free men in the Empire were, objectively, despite any insipid whinge from people on this forum, ROMAN.
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The Roman Empire was an Empire named after the city of Rome, but it grew so much larger than that. To pretend that losing that city meant the Empire was no longer Roman is such an insane point of view.

Beware, you are almost about to realize that after Caracalla (those name was not Caracalla by the way), all of the empire nations could legitimacy call themselves Romans and did so including all of those who did not fall under the rule of Byzance after Odoacer's rule.

And the Roman Empire was not just named after the city of Rome. It was the area where the Roman city state (aka the civic community) imposed its imperium (aka its imperial authority). But paradoxically, Rome the city state was also the only civitas without civic life after the conclusion of the civil wars era and the final victory of Octavius over his political rivals.

Making "Roman Empire" a paradoxal political identity where a single city state imposed its will over all others city state through individual unilateral and strictly unequal treaties akin to a federation while simultaneously placing the Roman city state in an inferior position as the only city state in the empire without actual civic life and so turning Rome into the only city state where the citizen could not rule over themselves.

But maybe you did not even realize that the "Roman Empire" pre-existed what we call "principate" and "Emperors" by abuse of language.
 
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I just don't think what people call themselves matters that much.

Oh, but it matters quite a lot. If English colonists in America called themselves "English" it'd be a bit strange to insist on calling them "French", because *reasons*.

It is beyond any doubt that people living in the ERE called themselves "Roman". And it's not that they suddenly started larping as Romans in, let's say, X century. No - it goes back to the original, undivided "classical" Roman Empire. And then it just continues, uninterrupted, to the XX century.

All free peoples in the former empire were Roman after edict of Caracalla. In 500 AD there were Romans in Gaul, Spain, Italy, Thrace, Egypt and Africa. People still existed en masse. But there was one extremely important difference there - only in the ERE the continuity of the statehood was uninterrupted. Germanic kingdoms like the kingdom of Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals or Franks were not "Roman", because their rulers were not Roman. They were imitating Roman style, but they were not Romans themselves, but foreign invaders (who did not came alone but with hundreds of thousands of their people) who founded their own states. In time their subjects intermarried and also stopped considering themselves Romans as new cultures emerged.

At the same time in ERE Roman state still existed. Nothing changed since the "classical Rome". Roman emperor was sitting on his throne in Constantinople. Be it VIth, VIIIth, Xth, XIIIth century - he's still there. Dynasties changed like in all monarchies, but the Roman Emperor was still there, all the time. Roman bureaucracy was still working. Roman law was still enforced. For people living in ERE nothing really changed in 476 AD.
Why its citizens shouldn't call themselves "Romans" if their fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers and so on called themselves like that since the reign of emperor Caracalla? Just because they spoke Greek? Majority of Roman citizens in 212 AD did not speak Latin. The empire was so huge and so multicultural the true "Romans" (Latins from the city of Rome) were always a minority. And no one has any problems with that when talking about the empire of Diocletian or Constantine the Great, but suddenly it becomes a huge problem when it comes to the empire of Palaiologos dynasty.

It's the same thing over and over again - it's not that there's something objectively wrong with the ERE or the "Byzantine" empire. It's not that there are some objective doubts about their legitimacy, their legacy and their uninterrupted existence. Some people, for some strange reason, simply will do anything, any mental flips and gymnastics just to never admit they were Romans and their empire was Roman. And if so - they will stubbornly look at the literal Roman Empire and say "no, it's not a Roman empire". We have holocaust deniers, we have flat-earthers, we have Moon landing deniers - and we have ERE-deniers. It's the same. The evidence is there, it's easily available, it points out at the only logical and true option - "Byzantine Empire" was Roman and its citizens were Romans - but they will always say "no", no matter what.

Rome is a city. A Roman Empire is an Empire of Rome. The moment the Byzantines lost Rome they lost the legitimacy of the Empire.

Just because you say so?

Why should its legitimacy be determined by the ownership of the city which stopped being its capital long time ago and wasn't even part of its administrative division?

Imagine this: there's a powerful state, the most developed one on the entire continent. Immensely weatlhy, its culture is unmatched. Traditions, laws, monuments dating back to times of Constantine and older. Uninterrupted continuity. It was THE Roman Empire for generations and now some guy comes around and says "welp, we don't control the city of Rome directly, I guess we're something completely different now. Let's call ourselves "Byzantines" now."



You say that the people of the Byzantine called themselves Roman. What did the people of the actual city of Rome call themselves?

And you really think it has any impact on how the citizens of the Roman Empire should call themselves? Really?

What about Roman citizens who lived in Constantinople because they followed the court of Constantine there? Did they lose their "Roman" status because they were no longer living in the city of Rome? According to your "logic" every Roman citizen should automatically stop considering himself Roman if they moved outsie the city of Rome.

And what about the people of Latium? The core of the Roman empire? What about the people of Veii, Tusculum, Ostia or Praeneste, all within 50 km from Rome? They weren't Romans because they were not living in the city of Rome?

Seriously, this whole "but only people of the city of Rome are Romans" is so naive... Yes, they are Romans. And yes - there were Romans living outside Rome. Plenty of them. In the fourth century more Roman citizens lived outside the city of Rome than in it.

As it was already pointed out in this thread - there are other "Romes" in the world. There is even a tiny village called like that in Poland. And you know what? They call themselves Romans. Because that's how they are called, it's absolutely normal. But... so what? It has literally no impact on the ERE legitimacy, just like the "bUt oNlY tHe pEoPlE oF rOmE" doesn't. At all. It's semantics, nothing more and has no impact on the reality of medieval states.

How can a Empire of the Romans not rule over the only ones who are indisputably Roman?

It's extremely simple - by ruling over those who were also indisputably Roman.
 
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any academical book on Byzance will start by the obligatory naming convention where the author will offer a list of applicable name and state he/she will use Byzantine Empire anyway.
And the reason why they did this went way, way over your head because you've stuck it in the sand like an ostrich, eh?

It is 100% accurate
It is exactly as accurate as the rest of the insipid dribble you've been posting; 0%

if you ever bother to actually read any book or god forbid, have academical teaching.
The irony.
That is a not nice way to admit you have no argument or even clue of what we are speaking.
Probably because that is not what I was doing. I was merely pointing out how ridiculous your comments are. I know full well what is going on here; you are writing ignorant, ahistorical nonsense and pretending that you're some intellectual, and are pretending that any comments to the contrary of your posts are made by "crying history nerds" instead of the reality, which is "people who know what the fuck they're talking about"

All you seem to want to do is argue against strawmen, probably because you have no actual arguments of your own, other than, of course, ones that are completely unrelated to the topic.

We haven't had anyone this misinformed in this thread in quite some time so congratulations on that. Your squishy red nose is in the post and on its way to you.
 
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Oh, but it matters quite a lot. If English colonists in America called themselves "English" it'd be a bit strange to insist on calling them "French", because *reasons*.

It is beyond any doubt that people living in the ERE called themselves "Roman". And it's not that they suddenly started larping as Romans in, let's say, X century. No - it goes back to the original, undivided "classical" Roman Empire. And then it just continues, uninterrupted, to the XX century.

All free peoples in the former empire were Roman after edict of Caracalla. In 500 AD there were Romans in Gaul, Spain, Italy, Thrace, Egypt and Africa. People still existed en masse. But there was one extremely important difference there - only in the ERE the continuity of the statehood was uninterrupted. Germanic kingdoms like the kingdom of Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Vandals or Franks were not "Roman", because their rulers were not Roman. They were imitating Roman style, but they were not Romans themselves, but foreign invaders (who did not came alone but with hundreds of thousands of their people) who founded their own states. In time their subjects intermarried and also stopped considering themselves Romans as new cultures emerged.

At the same time in ERE Roman state still existed. Nothing changed since the "classical Rome". Roman emperor was sitting on his throne in Constantinople. Be it VIth, VIIIth, Xth, XIIIth century - he's still there. Dynasties changed like in all monarchies, but the Roman Emperor was still there, all the time. Roman bureaucracy was still working. Roman law was still enforced. For people living in ERE nothing really changed in 476 AD.
Why its citizens shouldn't call themselves "Romans" if their fathers, grandfathers, great-grandfathers and so on called themselves like that since the reign of emperor Caracalla? Just because they spoke Greek? Majority of Roman citizens in 212 AD did not speak Latin. The empire was so huge and so multicultural the true "Romans" (Latins from the city of Rome) were always a minority. And no one has any problems with that when talking about the empire of Diocletian or Constantine the Great, but suddenly it becomes a huge problem when it comes to the empire of Palaiologos dynasty.

It's the same thing over and over again - it's not that there's something objectively wrong with the ERE or the "Byzantine" empire. It's not that there are some objective doubts about their legitimacy, their legacy and their uninterrupted existence. Some people, for some strange reason, simply will do anything, any mental flips and gymnastics just to never admit they were Romans and their empire was Roman. And if so - they will stubbornly look at the literal Roman Empire and say "no, it's not a Roman empire". We have holocaust deniers, we have flat-earthers, we have Moon landing deniers - and we have ERE-deniers. It's the same. The evidence is there, it's easily available, it points out at the only logical and true option - "Byzantine Empire" was Roman and its citizens were Romans - but they will always say "no", no matter what.



Just because you say so?

Why should its legitimacy be determined by the ownership of the city which stopped being its capital long time ago and wasn't even part of its administrative division?

Imagine this: there's a powerful state, the most developed one on the entire continent. Immensely weatlhy, its culture is unmatched. Traditions, laws, monuments dating back to times of Constantine and older. Uninterrupted continuity. It was THE Roman Empire for generations and now some guy comes around and says "welp, we don't control the city of Rome directly, I guess we're something completely different now. Let's call ourselves "Byzantines" now."





And you really think it has any impact on how the citizens of the Roman Empire should call themselves? Really?

What about Roman citizens who lived in Constantinople because they followed the court of Constantine there? Did they lose their "Roman" status because they were no longer living in the city of Rome? According to your "logic" every Roman citizen should automatically stop considering himself Roman if they moved outsie the city of Rome.

And what about the people of Latium? The core of the Roman empire? What about the people of Veii, Tusculum, Ostia or Praeneste, all within 50 km from Rome? They weren't Romans because they were not living in the city of Rome?

Seriously, this whole "but only people of the city of Rome are Romans" is so naive... Yes, they are Romans. And yes - there were Romans living outside Rome. Plenty of them. In the fourth century more Roman citizens lived outside the city of Rome than in it.

As it was already pointed out in this thread - there are other "Romes" in the world. There is even a tiny village called like that in Poland. And you know what? They call themselves Romans. Because that's how they are called, it's absolutely normal. But... so what? It has literally no impact on the ERE legitimacy, just like the "bUt oNlY tHe pEoPlE oF rOmE" doesn't. At all. It's semantics, nothing more and has no impact on the reality of medieval states.



It's extremely simple - by ruling over those who were also indisputably Roman.
Just one major nitpick, after the 4th crusade you can't keep the argument of uninterrupted continuity, and in 1337 the 4th crused has already happened. At best it would be a refounding, not continuity.
 
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Just one major nitpick, after the 4th crusade you can't keep the argument of uninterrupted continuity, and in 1337 the 4th crused has already happened. At best it would be a refounding, not continuity.
That's a flawed way of thinking, if you go by that then technically Rome ended in 509 BC. With the transition to the the republic and again in 27bc with the Pricipate then again with the dominate and the spitting of the empire under Theodosius. "Continuity" historically is a somewhat flexible thing, take China, It didn't cease to exist doing the inter-dynastic wars or the foreign dynasties of the Yuan or Qing. I see no real reason to not treat The rump state of Nicea as the continuation of the Byzantines up until they retake Constantinople in the same way we treat the three kingdoms period as the transition between two different Chinese dynasties uniting China
 
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That's a flawed way of thinking, if you go by that then technically Rome ended in 509 BC. With the transition to the transition to the the republic and again in 27bc with the Pricipate then again with the dominate and the spitting of the empire under Theodosius. "Continuity" historically is a somewhat flexible thing, take China, It didn't cease to exist doing the inter-dynastic wars or the foreign dynasties of the Yuan or Qing. I see no real reason to not treat The rump state of Nicea as the continuation of the Byzantines up until they retake Constantinople in the same way we treat the three kingdoms period as the transition between two different Chinese dynasties uniting China
In that comment I just said that uninterrupted continuity is not a good argument in this case, not that that fact disqualifies Nicaea from restoring the Empire.
 
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Just one major nitpick, after the 4th crusade you can't keep the argument of uninterrupted continuity, and in 1337 the 4th crused has already happened. At best it would be a refounding, not continuity.

Why not? Did the Latins completely destroy the entire "Byzantine Empire" and erase every part of it from existence?

So the French also stopped being French in 1940 when they lost direct control of Paris? And of course modern France completely lost its legitimacy, because "true France" was destroyed in 1940 and was replaced by "Vichy"? I've just found out I have a very distant cousin living in Paris (our great-great-great-greatgrandparents were brothers), I can't wait to inform her that she's not French, but... hmm... "Vichian"?

"bUt tHe 12o4!!!!" is as naive as the "but only the people of the city of Rome!!!!" argument. No, temporary occupation of the part of the state doesn't change anything. Warsaw was occupied by Swedes in 1655. They controlled 1/3 of PLC including all historical capitals. King fled abroad for some time. But that changed literally nothing. In time he returned and all occupied lands were ultimately liberated and it had no impact on legitimacy of PLC or how Polish people were called back then or how they should be called now.
 
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Why not? Did the Latins completely destroy the entire "Byzantine Empire" and erase every part of it from existence?

So the French also stopped being French in 1940 when they lost direct control of Paris? And of course modern France completely lost its legitimacy, because "true France" was destroyed in 1940 and was replaced by "Vichy"? I've just found out I have a very distant cousin living in paris (our great-great-great-greatparents were brothers), I can't wait to inform her that she's not French, but... hmm... "Vichian"?

"bUt tHe 12o4!!!!" is as naive as the "but only the people of the city of Rome!!!!" argument. No, temporary occupation of the part of the state doesn't change anything. Warsaw was occupied by Swedes in 1655. They controlled 1/3 of PLC including all historical capitals. King fled abroad for some time. But that changed literally nothing. In time he returned and all occupied lands were ultimately liberated and it had no impact on legitimacy of PLC or how Polish people were called back then or how they should be called now.
There were different successor states, not just Nicaea, it's not just a country that temporarily loses territory. Most importantly I didn't say that the 4th crusade disqualifies them from being Roman, just that uninterrupted continuity does not apply as an argument.
 
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uninterrupted continuity does not apply as an argument.
Except your assertions that 1204 somehow "breaks" the continuity isn't what the prevailing view of byzantine history accepts. 90% of history is interpreting what we think we know happened, and the orthodox(hehe) view is that there was no break in continuity.
 
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There were different successor states, not just Nicaea, it's not just a country that temporarily loses territory. Most importantly I didn't say that the 4th crusade disqualifies them from being Roman, just that uninterrupted continuity does not apply as an argument.

How it "breaks the continuity"? The so called "Empire of Nicaea" is yet another term used for convienience. For people back then it wasn't some completely new state with a completely new name. No Roman pater familias came home that day and told his family "we're Nicaeans now". It was still the Roman Empire. The continuity is still there. Just as unoccupied parts of France were still France, unoccupied parts of PLC were still PLC - unoccupied parts of the Roman Empire were still... surprise, surprise... a Roman Empire. I literally have no idea how someone can not see that.

There were other successor states. And they were Roman too, as they had the same claim. It has no impact on the Romanness of the "Nicene Empire" at all.
 
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