Ok, I'll bite. I'd disagreed with your posts because you're trying to reflect the situation as it was 300+ years before the game start. Toponyms are not a good indication for where a culture should be placed at the start of EU5. There are still loads of Pictish toponyms in Scotland, but that doesn't mean that there are still Picts walking about. Likewise for the Norn culture. There's pretty solid records as to where these Pops would be located at the game's start, and I think Paradox have done a good job representing the situation as it should be. Posting a map reflecting the situation in the year 1000 is not a good justification for expanding these pops to other areas.
And yes, language is a pretty important distinguishing factor for culture when we're talking about Norn, Pictish, and Highland cultures. To claim that the Picts wouldn't have just disappears falls apart once you realise that assimilation is a thing. People don't disappear, but societies do change, and cultural/linguistic shifts play a huge part in that. I don't speak the same language as my grandparents -- that doesn't mean that that lineage has disappeared.
Pictish,
Middle Irish and
Old Norse would certainly have been spoken for quite some time. Significant degree of linguistic
balkanisation took place and then Normans etc. Even today not looking at Scandinavian parts of english. You got several scandinavian words in scottish.
Old Norse, left a significant imprint on Scottish toponymy, particularly in the Highlands, Orkney, Shetland, and the Hebrides. These words are not part of modern English or Gaelic but are distinctly Scandinavian in origin. But i have said enough about place names.
Here are some examples in dialects:
-
*bairn* (child): From Old Norse
barn.
Common in Scots but directly Norse in origin, still used in Shetlandic and Orcadian dialects.-
*skerf* (scarf or shawl): From Old Norse
skarfr, used in Shetlandic dialect.-
*voe* (small bay or inlet): From Old Norse
vágr, common in Shetland (e.g., Sullom Voe).-
*quoy* (enclosed land): From Old Norse
kvi, seen in place names like Quoygrew (Orkney) and used in local dialect for a parcel of land.-
*peerie* (small): From Old Norse
pírr, still used in Shetland to mean "little" (e.g., "a peerie bairn").-
*kist* (chest, box): From Old Norse
kista, used in Scots and Orcadian dialect for a storage chest.-
*lug* (ear or handle): From Old Norse
lugga, meaning to pull or refer to the ear, used in northern Scots dialects. So even today centuries later you see traces.
https://www.scotsman.com/heritage-and-retro/heritage/norn-language-scotland-viking-tongue-4197136
If anyone wants to go "deep" in Norn:
https://nornlanguage.x10.mx/index.php?nynorn
The historical record from Scottish sources is weak, with the irish annals and the later Norse sagas, of which the Orkneyar saga is the principal source of information.
There are various competing theories that have addressed the early colonisation process, although it is clear that the Northern Isles were the first to be conquered by Vikings and the last to be relinquished by the Norwegian crown.
Thorfinn Sigurdsson's rule in the 11th century included expansion well into north mainland Scotland and this may have been the zenith of Scandinavian influence. The obliteration of pre-Norse names in the Hebrides and Northern Isles, and their replacement with Norse ones was almost total although the emergence of alliances with the native
Gaelic speakers produced a powerful
Norse–Gael culture that had wide influence in
Argyll,
Galloway and beyond.
Vikings were many places, can speak of the Normans, the Rus also, but that will make this comment to long.
If you look at the Norse geals:
Several Scottish clans have Norse–Gaelic roots, such as
Clan MacDonald,
Clan MacDougall and
Clan MacLeod. The elite mercenary warriors known as the
gallowglass (
gallóglaigh) emerged from these Norse–Gaelic clans and became an important part of Irish warfare. The Viking
longship also influenced the Gaelic
birlinn and
longa fada, which were used extensively until the 17th century. Norse–Gaelic surnames survive today and include
MacIvor,
MacAskill, and
[Mac]Cotter.
The Norse–Gaels often called themselves Ostmen or Austmen, meaning East-men, a name preserved in a corrupted form in the
Dublin area known as
Oxmantown which comes from Austmanna-tún (homestead of the Eastmen). In contrast, they called Gaels Vestmenn (West-men) (see
Vestmannaeyjar and
Vestmanna).
The term Ostmen was used between the 12th and 14th centuries by the English in Ireland to refer to Norse–Gaelic people living in Ireland. Meaning literally "the men from the east" (i.e. Scandinavia), the term came from the
Old Norse word
austr or east. The Ostmen were regarded as a separate group from the English and Irish and were accorded privileges and rights to which the Irish were not entitled. They lived in distinct localities; in Dublin they lived outside the city walls on the north bank of the
River Liffey in Ostmentown, a name which survives to this day in corrupted form as
Oxmantown. It was once thought that their settlement had been established by Norse–Gaels who had been forced out of Dublin by the English but this is now known not to be the case. Other groups of Ostmen lived in Limerick and Waterford. Many were merchants or lived a partly rural lifestyle, pursuing fishing, craft-working and cattle raising. Their roles in Ireland's economy made them valuable subjects and the English Crown granted them special legal protections. These eventually fell out of use as the Ostmen assimilated into the English settler community throughout the 13th and 14th centuries.
Other terms for the Norse–Gaels are
Norse-Irish,
Hiberno-Norse or
Hiberno-Scandinavian for those in Ireland, and
Norse-Scots or
Scoto-Norse for those in Scotland.
Looking at Cathnes, sutherland and Ross:
Sigurd Eysteinsson and
Thorstein the Red moved on northern Scotland, conquering large areas variously described in the sagas as constituting all of Caithness and Sutherland and possibly including territory in Ross and even
Moray during the last decade of the 9th century.The
Orkneyinga Saga relates how the former defeated the Pict
Máel Brigte Tusk but died from an unusual post-battle injury.
Thorfinn Torf-Einarsson married into the native aristocracy and his son, Skuli Thorfinnsson, is recorded as having sought the support of the King of Scots in the 10th century in pursuing his claim as
mormaer of Caithness.
Njáls saga relates that
Sigurd the Stout was the ruler of "Ross and Moray, Sutherland and the Dales" of Caithness and it is possible that in the late 10th century the Scots kings were in alliance with the Earl of Orkney against the
Mormaer of Moray.
Thorfinn Sigurdsson expanded his father's realm south beyond Sutherland and by the 11th century the Norwegian crown had come to accept that Caithness was held by the earls of Orkney as a fiefdom from the Kings of Scotland although its Norse character was retained throughout the 13th century.
Raghnall mac Gofraidh was granted Caithness after assisting the Scots king in a conflict with
Harald Maddadson, an earl of Orkney in the early 13th century.
Sutherland was part of the Caithness mormaerdom for most of this title's history, but was "taken" by
Alexander II from
Magnus, the first "Angus" earl, and given to others for unknown reasons.
This joint earldom ceased after 1375 and the
Pentland Firth became the border between Scotland and Norway. ( So joint earldom until after game start).
Scottish influence increased from the 13th century on. In 1231, an unbroken line of Norse earls of Orkney ended and the title was since held by Scottish nobles. An ill-fated expedition by
Haakon Haakonarson later in that century led to the relinquishing of the islands of the west to the Scottish Crown and in the mid-15th century Orkney and Shetland were also transferred to Scottish rule.
Asking AI opinion:
The Norse culture in Ross and Sutherland, areas in the northern Highlands of Scotland, didn't vanish abruptly but gradually faded through assimilation and political shifts, roughly between the 13th and 15th centuries.
The Norse presence, established during the Viking Age (8th–11th centuries), was marked by settlements, place names, and political control, particularly under the Earldom of Orkney, which extended influence over these regions.
Key factors in the decline include:-
*Political Integration*: The Treaty of Perth (1266) ceded the Hebrides and other Norse territories to Scotland, weakening Norse political control.
Ross and Sutherland, while not directly part of this treaty, felt the ripple effects as Scottish influence grew.
-
*Cultural Assimilation*: Norse settlers intermarried with local Gaelic populations, blending cultures. By the 14th century, Gaelic language and customs were resurging, diluting distinct Norse identity.
-
*Decline of Orkney’s Power*: The Earldom of Orkney, a Norse stronghold, lost influence in mainland Scotland as Scottish clans and nobility, like the Sinclairs and Stewarts, gained prominence in Ross and Sutherland.
-
*Economic Shifts*: The Norse economy, reliant on trade and raiding, waned as Scotland’s feudal system and clan structures dominated.
By the 15th century, Norse cultural markers—like language and runestones—were largely replaced by Gaelic and Scots influences, though Norse-derived place names (e.g., Dingwall, Tain) persist. Exact dates are hard to pin down due to the gradual nature of this transition, but the Norse cultural distinctiveness in Ross and Sutherland was effectively minimal by around 1450.No single event marks the "disappearance,"
So this was a gradual process.
Can finish of with some pictures fromn Clan Gunns heritage center:
Was not before 1240ad just 100 years before game start clan Gunn turned their backs to Norway.
Even if the lords changed, the people does not change that fast.
Orkneys flag today after more than 500 years of scottish rule:
Nordic flags:
They are even debating about returning to Norway:
https://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/orkney-and-norway-relationship-explained-4214819
Not to mention Shetlands festival:
Assimilation takes time.
One of the last documents written in Norn was for a 1597 mortgage issued over a property belonging to Else, sister of Anna, who had married a Shetland man Andrew Mowat of Heogoland in Eshaness.
Last recorded Norn speaker was
Walter Sutherland (died c. 1850) was a Scottish man who was reportedly the native speaker of
Norn.
Edit:
Added a folk song from Unst Shetland:
Out of time. Nightshift at sea. But hope you see my point of view.
