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Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Mondays, Tuesdays & Fridays in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!
Today, we will take a look at two Orthodox countries, in advance of tomorrow’s Tinto Talks: Serbia & Georgia.
Let’s start by taking a look at Serbia:
Serbia encompasses fertile lowlands and plains in the north, crisscrossed by the mighty Danube and Sava rivers. In the south, the landscape transforms into rugged, forested terrain and, eventually, the towering Dinaric Alps.
The realm emerged as a significant regional power under the Nemanjić dynasty. Founded by Stefan Nemanja in the 12th century, this royal lineage laid the foundations for a unified Serbian state, began to solidify its Christian Orthodox identity, and sought to establish ecclesiastical autonomy. This effort culminated in 1219 when the Serbian Orthodox Church gained independence.
Under the rule of Stefan 'the First-Crowned', Serbia’s territorial expansion accelerated, and the acquisition of coastal regions on the Adriatic Sea secured access to maritime trade and introduced Western influences. Stefan's son, King Radoslav, promoted the country's cultural development, fostering education and art, and monasteries like Studenica and Žiča flourished, housing precious religious manuscripts and frescoes.
Despite the many recent advancements, Serbia now faces external pressures and internal divisions. The Mongol invasion in the 13th century inflicted significant damage and conflict within the ruling Nemanjić family, particularly between King Stefan Uroš II Milutin Nemanjić and his brother King Stefan Dragutin Nemanjić, further weakening the state's unity. Now, the strong rule of King Stefan Uroš IV Dušan Nemanjić appears as an opportunity to change the tides of history.
But not all if positive, as upon the death of Stefan IV, this disaster might also happen:
Let’s now take a look at Georgia:
Georgian people are proud and with a long history, for their ancestors were already living at the foot of the Caucasus even before the old empires of ancient antiquity were formed. They were among the first to embrace Christianity, and they made it their flag and identity. Even after the expansion of Islam, and being surrounded by heathen nations, they held their faith and became a bulwark of Christianity in the midst of the connection between East and West.
Not even the Mongol hordes of Činggis Khān managed to fully subjugate its people, for the Georgian people rose again in defiance once the Mongol threat waned. Having been united once before under a great kingdom, the Georgian people have the potential to achieve great heights once again.
The country had its greatest splendor during the rule of King Davit IV the Builder Bagrationi and Queen Tamar the Great Bagrationi. Now, after having been divided, the Kingdom of Georgia is once again united under the authority of King Giorgi V the Brilliant Bagrationi, after His Majesty conquered western Georgia and reasserted his rule over all the Georgian territory. Even Armenia bows now to the power of Georgia.
Although still technically subject to the Īlkhānān, it in itself is an empty husk, with no one to actually lead it. Under these circumstances, how could Georgia not rise again greater than ever before?
Georgian people are proud and with a long history, for their ancestors were already living at the foot of the Caucasus even before the old empires of ancient antiquity were formed. They were among the first to embrace Christianity, and they made it their flag and identity. Even after the expansion of Islam, and being surrounded by heathen nations, they held their faith and became a bulwark of Christianity in the midst of the connection between East and West.
Not even the Mongol hordes of Činggis Khān managed to fully subjugate its people, for the Georgian people rose again in defiance once the Mongol threat waned. Having been united once before under a great kingdom, the Georgian people have the potential to achieve great heights once again.
The country had its greatest splendor during the rule of King Davit IV the Builder Bagrationi and Queen Tamar the Great Bagrationi. Now, after having been divided, the Kingdom of Georgia is once again united under the authority of King Giorgi V the Brilliant Bagrationi, after His Majesty conquered western Georgia and reasserted his rule over all the Georgian territory. Even Armenia bows now to the power of Georgia.
Although still technically subject to the Īlkhānān, it in itself is an empty husk, with no one to actually lead it. Under these circumstances, how could Georgia not rise again greater than ever before?
"conquered western Georgia" is a bit misleading, it was a reconquest more than anything.
"Even Armenia bows now to the power of Georgia" - also a tad misleading. These parts of Armenia had been under Georgian authority for the past 200 years. It would be better to say that "Armenia has finally been retaken from the khas-injü (royal domain/autonomy) of the Mongols".
"Although still technically subject to the Īlkhānān" - a very controversial assertion. Considering the mechanics of the Ilkhanate, IRL history, and Giorgi's position in-game, I think it'd be more accurate to say that he wasn't subject to the Il-Khans.
I've written my own flavour text, maybe you can use it instead:
Georgia is an ancient land of warriors, tracing its lineage to the kingdoms of Iberia and Colchis of antiquity. Among the first nations to embrace Christianity, Georgia stands as a proud bastion of the Eastern Orthodox world, bound by faith and tradition to Constantinople.
In spite of that, Georgia has long challenged Rome for hegemony in the Caucasus, defiantly claiming the title of Mepe-Mepeta, or king of kings, in an attempt to gain recognition of parity with the emperor of Rome.
Sakartvelos Samepo, as it is known in its native tongue, unites the Kartvelian peoples: Svans, Mingrelians, Lazes, and the titular nation, the Georgians.
The legendary Bagrationi dynasty, the line of kings since the 9th century, claims descent from the Israelite king-prophet David, enshrining their legitimacy with kinship with Christ.
The incumbent king of kings, Giorgi V "The Brilliant" Bagrationi, would go down in the annals of history as one of the greatest rulers in Georgian history, alongside his illustrious ancestors like Vakhtang I "Gorgasali", David IV "The Builder", and "King" Tamar.
Having recently broken free from the dominion of the Il-khans, Georgia must tread carefully — to maintain its independence from the Jalayirid Sultanate and to recover lost territories in Greater Armenia.
Georgia stands as the last great beacon of Christendom in the Caucasus. Will you fall to the endless hordes of heathens, or will you succeed in protecting your people from complete annihilation?
I already gave my suggestion regarding the king's appearance : D
The Georgian flag shouldn't have concave, almost Templar-like crosses - they should be more rectangular.
I feel as though the population if far too low for the time frame. ~1M people in all of Georgia and just 600K people in Georgia proper (excluding Alastani and Samtskhe) seems odd to me.
I strongly suggest rethinking that decision. I've already written of this here. Having spoken with another developer, it seems like the 3 million figure is too high, but 2-2,5M is reasonable, no?
Importantly, the monarch of Georgia was known as the King of Kings - equivalent to an emperor. While I wouldn't find making the country an empire-tier realm objectionable, for the sake of game balance, keeping it as a kingdom but giving it something like a prestige boost would be preferable.
3. Works of art
In terms of art for Georgia, I suggest creating an artist called Damiane.
He was a very well-known painter from the 14th century, and would've been alive in 1337. His masterpiece being the decorations of the Ubisi Cathedral.
In terms of historical art, I suggest giving Georgia the Gelati Monastery as a masterpiece. It was the Reims of Georgia in a sense, as the monarchs were typically crowned there.
And perhaps also the Khakhuli triptych as a regionally well-known piece.
I almost forgot to suggest some art in the form of literature - the Knight in the Panther's Skin, a masterpiece of chivalric romance, should definitely be added too.
4. Estate privileges
I feel like there should be some kind of privileges for the clergy and the nobility to represent the fact that one of their own (Bishop of Chkondidi and Atabag of Samtskhe) were the highest and 2nd highest ranking viziers of the Georgian king - perhaps giving some satisfaction but also power to the respective estates.
Why does Georgia not have overlordship over Vayots Dzor, Khachen and Syunik? Is that also something which changes via decision? This wasn't the case in the Persia & Caucasus feedback thread.
If not, then this is very inaccurate. We've proven many times that southern-eastern Armenia was already under Georgian control by 1337 (since 1314, mind you).
Edit: It is more likely that they're vassals of Armenia. I think vassals-of-vassals should be shown in some way on the map.
The claims or cores to Shamkor and Gardman are quite accurate.
Shaki should control all of the province of Shaki.
Also, are north Caucasian polities like Circassia and Alania tributaries of Georgia in an IO? They should be, as the contemporary chronicler Zamtaaghmtsereli proves that the king subjected the peoples of the north Caucasus as previously under David IV and Tamar.
There are many, many other things I could point out, especially with regards to the national borders, but for the sake of brevity, these are all the ones directly relevant to the flavour of Georgia. My full list of suggestions are here.
6. Policies
I suggest giving Georgia a special policy of "Sadrosho", which was an administrative division in medieval and early modern Georgia which supplied men for a subdivision of the army marked by its own banner. A tactical unit furnished by this territorial unit was also known as sadrosho, each under the command of a military official, sardali.
Another idea would be the the "Morige Jari". A semi-standing army developed under Heraclius II. IIRC, even Frederick the Great commented upon the effectiveness and the very quick response time of the army. It single-handedly stopped the process known as Lekianoba, which had been ravaging Georgia since the early 16th century.
7. Advances
Perhaps giving Georgia something reminiscent of "Caucasian Wolves" from CK3's Georgian culture, giving units a boost in hills and mountain terrain would be appreciated.
You could also add the "Dzeglisdeba", a law code for the unruly tribes of the highlands of Georgia. Something like +15% control in hill/mountain locations in the Georgian area would be quite interesting. I've attached a link for the translation of the document by the renowned Kartvelologist Oliver Wardrop.
The advance regarding Georgia's Golden Age only beginning in the Age of Renaissance is very odd. The dating for the time period is usually 1121-1225. It's quite jarring to see an advance such as this being in the mid-14th century. It should most likely be in the age of Traditions as well. Either that, or in its place give Georgia an advance regarding Vakhtang VI's legal reforms - namely the Dasturlamali.
The Regulations of the Royal Court should also give cabinet efficiency, I think, it being a document stipulating the roles and privileges of the cabinet.
8. Events
Georgia should have some kind of a special relationship with Trebizond, it being described as a Georgian fiefdom until the Mongol invasions in the early 13th century. Giorgi V invaded the empire in 1341 to install a relative of his on the throne. Perhaps this should be represented in some way though an event. [Edge of Empires, 2013, Rayfield]
Giorgi Saakadze wasn't from a prominent family at all. In fact, he came from minor unlanded nobility (as the event says, but the historical context mistakenly interprets). In real life, that was one of the reasons as to why he was so detested by the upper nobility.
Having watched some videos previewing the game, I found these events for Georgia specifically:
Thank you so much for listening to our feedback!
9. Miscellaneous
The Georgian Patriarchate should be led by Basil V, not by the king himself.
Here are the localisations for the estates and country ranks of Georgian culture:
Countries:
Georgia, Samtskhe, Alast'ani, Shaki (?).
Estate localisations:
Estate:
Localisations:
Crown
სამეფო/ტახტი // Samepo/Takhti (the kingdom/the throne).
Nobility
დიდებულნი/დიდებულები // Didebulni/Didebulebi (the nobles/the nobility, lit. the great ones).
საერისთავო/სამთავრო // Saeristavo/Samtavro (lit. the domain of the eristavi/lit. the domain of the mtavari)**.
ერისთავი/მთავარი // Eristavi/Mtavari (lit. the head of the people/the head)**.
The consorts of great lords used different titles†.
County
No equivalent in Georgian tradition***.
No equivalent in Georgian tradition***.
The consorts of great lords used different titles†.
Notes:
* There was no real concept of an empire or an emperor in Georgian tradition (until the 19th century, of course). While the Georgian king was known as the King of Kings, the realm he ruled over was still known as a kingdom. Hence, I suggest using the clunkier, but more accurate Great Kingdom, rather than the anachronistic but more applicable Emperor.
** The titles of regional rulers changed during the timespan of the game. According to Mikaberidze (2007), the Mtavari was a: "Grand noble or dynastic prince. Initially, the term was similar to eristavi or tavadi, but starting in the 15th century, it was applied only to the very few powerful ruling houses of Georgia. Even among these grand nobles, the title was reserved for the head of the undivided house only."
*** There is no real equivalent to the title of count in Georgian tradition. For gameplay purposes, I suggest using the name of Satavado for Georgian-culture county-level countries. Historically, it was equated to the Russian Knyaz, and therefore to the western Herzog. In-in game terms, this would be the most appropriate localisation for the title, perhaps to represent semi-sovereign rulers under the Georgian kings post-collapse.
† The consorts of great lords like Eristavis, Mtavaris, and Tavadis bore various different titles, based on their own personal prestige and political standing. For in-game consistency, I suggest using the common ქალბატონი // Kalbatoni (lit. female lord).
I wrote about the Societal Values of Georgia here.
Value:
Score:
Centralisation vs Decentralisation
-30
Traditionalist vs Innovative
-60
Spiritualist vs Humanist
-80
Aristocracy vs Plutocracy
-90
Serfdom vs Free Subjects
-60
Belligerent vs Conciliatory
+50
Quality vs Quantity
-70
Offensive vs Defensive
+80
Land vs Naval
-80
Capital Economy vs Traditional Economy
+50
Individualism vs Communalism
+70
Mercantilism vs Free Trade
-30
Outward vs Inward
+80
"Armenia" as a polity didn't exist in this time frame. The Zakaid-Mkhargrdzeli-led polity in the south of Georgia should instead be known as the Zakarid principality, instead of the hugely anachronistic "Armenia".
Shaki, in the east of Georgia, should most likely be led by Georgians, not by Mongolic Persians as seen currently.
Hello, here is a general list of suggestions I have for Serbia (and its environment), split into a lot of different areas where I noticed simple fixes would really help.
I apologize for the length, hopefully the spoilers keep it manageable! I wanted to post this ASAP to make sure the devs (and others who have helpful comments!) see it, will probably add more pics and suggestions based on today's post soon!
A few of the estate names are wrong, and use what seem to be West Slavic names instead:
The proper ones are:
The Crown: Kruna
Nobility: Vlastela
Burghers: Građanstvo
Clergy: Sveštenstvo (Kler, if Serbia is Catholic or Protestant)
Peasants: Kmetovi
Tribes: Plemena (also pleaase consider making some Montenegrin and Albanian pops tribal, at least in a future update)
People have brought up multiple times, but Blagoevgrad was named after a socialist politican, if you don't want to replace the city, name it Scaptopara, its ancient name or at least Gorna Dzhumaya, its Ottoman name.
Not as important, but Zvečan was far more important than Mitrovica in the Middle Ages and would make for a better name for its location. In 1330s, it had just played a crucial role in Serbian succession, with Stefan Dušan imprisoning and murdering his father in it.
Similarly, Ustikolina declined later in the period while Hotča (Foča) remained very relevant and a sanjak capital, I would change the name of that location to Hotča
And finally, Slano would be better named Ston, as the latter was the more important city, the clear second city of the republic. Regardless, it should be owned by Ragusa instead of Venice, and instead of being Dalmatian, it should be overwhelmingly Serbian/Bosnian (as you assigned all Slavs in the area to Bosnian) and have a significant Orthodox presence, as Pelješac peninsula was owned by Serbia until 1333 - from Serbian wiki on Pelješac-
"Eastern Orthodoxy appeared on Pelješac at the end of the 12th century, when the Catholic bishop was expelled from Ston, and an Orthodox episcopate was established on the peninsula. However, despite the dominance of Orthodoxy, Catholicism was preserved in the region, and when the Pelješac peninsula came under the rule of Dubrovnik in 1333, it was still inhabited mainly by Catholics, with the presence of Orthodox and Bogomils. Therefore, one of the first tasks of the new administration was to spread Catholicism, create parishes and build churches and monasteries. In 1335, the Dubrovnik government expelled the Orthodox clergy and monasticism, bringing in the Franciscans. And although some Orthodox priests remained on Pelješac after that, from the 1380s they were no longer in the region."
Some provinces could also get better names: Toplica as a region is relatively small and mostly covers areas in current Prokuplje location (not even included in the province!). I would instead rename it to Morava, as it includes much of West Morava and the merger of West and South Morava.
Prilep would work better as Ohrid, as the latter was a much more important city for longer periods of time. Debar should likely be in this province.
And finally, Illyria is an odd name for north Albania, calling it Scutari/Skadar/Shkoder works a lot better, as the city was its administrative seat for most of the period. Unless Albania becomes its own Area, this province should definitely be in the Serbia Area rather than the Northern Greece one, looks far more natural.
Very happy to see Beeswax added to the game - I hope it's common in the Balkans, as it was the second largest export of medieval Serbia after precious metals - I would change the tradegoods of several locations in Serbia and surrounding states to Beeswax:
"After precious metals, wax was the second largest export. The main export of wax went to Italian cities, such as Rimini. Most imports came from Hungary, primarily rock salt.
The Hungarian salt warehouse was located in Bolvan near Aleksinac. Along with the Serbian dinar, the Turkish aspra appears. Certain crafts develop; most notably ceramics and goldsmithing (especially in Srebrenica)"
I would assign Beeswax to:
-Prijepolje and Kozelj, whose tradegoods currently fit the least well, and also represent major bee keeping regions, Zlatar and Homolje honey
- Skopje, Gradina, Jajce, all wealthy capital areas in Beeswax producing states where it would fit well
In addition, I would also swap the tradegoods of some locations, as I believe the devs made some accidental errors here while implementing previous feedback:
-Šabac and Debrc (Kolubara Coal basin is in the Debrc/Debrecen location)
- give the Wine currently in Ðakovica to Prizren (the main wine producing region of Kosovo, around Orahovac/Rahovec, is near Prizren)
-and finally, give the current Livestock from Kozelj to Svrljig, where it fits better due to the well known local cheese production (belmuž), and to keep the high number of Livestock locations, as Livestock was the main product of Ottoman and early independent Serbia later in the game's period.
Novo Brdo was noted for its Glam Silver, which had a very high (up to 30%) presence of Gold. Given that we know several important mines have special modifiers, and Novo Brdo's significance, I would give it a modifier that also produces some Gold commensurate to its Silver production.
From the fourteenth century to the present day, the land of Kosovo and Metohija has been, and will always remain, the spiritual heartland of the Serbian Orthodox nation. Sanctified by a multitude of monasteries and churches as well as by the blood of martyrs, the holy land of Kosovo occupies a...
pravoslavie.ru
(questionable source, but the relevant part is the mention of silk!)
Peć has many interesting options - it could get Silk as well, as it was another major center of it, it could get Beeswax (my original proposal) to represent its production on Kosovo, but it could also get Saffron, something for which it was noted both in Serbia and abroad. Saffron would definitely be the most interesting product, but I'm fine with either of the other two if it would upset the game balance too much.
"Special money was minted for the head of the Serbian Church, and silk was also produced. The city was famous beyond the borders of the then Serbian state for the cultivation and production of saffron, which was used both as a spice and as a dye for fabric."
Shown here are with Red arrows the switched tradegoods, in Orange the new Beeswax locations, in Purple the Silk, and in Brown the Saffron/Silk/Beeswax of Peć.
Finally, I think the geography of the Balkans is in a rather good shape, but I'd change some of the vegetation - Kosovo was the most densely populated region of Serbia, so I would change Novo Brdo from Forest to Wood (this was never a particularly forested area) and Prizren to Farmlands (very densely populated region around the capital). Žiča is another candidate for Farmlands, as it was heavily cultivated, while I'd change Rudnik to be Forest, as Šumadija was famously forested at the time, and its the one that works the best as a Forest geography and balance wise (if dynamic vegetation is possible, I'd also give Smederevo Forest, that becomes Farmland when the city is properly founded)
I saw that the court is full of randomly generated characters (and I really hope the randomly generated location surnames get changed to proper family names, I can also provide a list if that would be helpful), so I wanted to suggest some of the famous Serbian nobles of the time being represented
The Mrnjavčević family: nobles that basically took control of the empire during its balkanization after Dušan's death, the brothers Vukašin and Uglješa were at this time young men (some historians and epic poetry add a third brother, Gojko). Their father, Mrnjav, might be a bit too irrelevant to add, but Vukašin at this time already had a young son, Marko, who would succeed him and who is perhaps the most famous literary figure in Serbia. His younger son, Andrija, might have already been born too.
The Hrebeljanović family: Pribac Hrebeljanović was a Chancellor (logothete) at the court, so would be one of the cabinet members. His young son Lazar would later come to rule Moravian Serbia (roughly coterminous with the modern country) and be one of the most famous and important Serbian rulers in history, especially for his death at the great Battle of Kosovo Field. In addition to Lazar, Pribac also had two daughters, one of which was named Dragana (who later married a noble named Musa, whose sons would be important in later Serbia)
When talking about Lazar, one has to mention his wife, Princess Milica, who came from a junior branch of the Nemanjić dynasty, daughter of a court noble and distant relative of the emperor named Vratko Nemanjić (folk epic poetry calls him Jug Bogdan and gives him 9 sons as well, but that is not historically known)
Brothers Altoman and Vojislav, who served as courtiers much like their father did and seized vast lands in the west of Serbia during the fall of the empire. They also had a sister named Vojislava, married into the Branivojević family, which was destroyed in 1326.
Branko Mladenović: important courtier who founded the Branković dynasty, which ruled Serbia for much of the 15th century and ruled Kosovo during the fall of the empire
Dejan: progenitor of the Dejanović/Dragaš noble family, which ruled much of Macedonia and West Bulgaria after the fall of the empire, married to Dušan's sister Teodora. The last Byzantine emperors were half-Dragaš
Vojihna: one of Dušan's most important military commanders, later given the title of Caesar. Another distant relative through a minor branch of the Nemanjić dynasty. His daughter Jefimija later married Uglješa Mrnjavčević, and became a famous early female writer
John Komnenos Asen: brother to the Bulgarian tsar and the Serbian queen, he followed his sister to Serbia and held important roles in the court, later ruling much of Southern Albania
Last but certainly not the least, Simeon Uroš was Dušan's half brother who tried to usurp the throne from his nephew and ended up ruling a large part of Greece, being famous for founding the Meteora monasteries, one of the holiest sites in Orthodoxy. Dušan had further siblings to ones mentioned here, but I'm not sure how many you want to include
Palman Bracht: Captain of Dušan's Alemmanic Guard (which is hopefully also represented through policies or advances already, as it was in EU4) and an important courtier and general for him. (Thanks to @Trepanator for reminding me of this one!)
Currently the development on the Balkans seems rather low compared to the rest of Europe, fitting more with the post-devastating Ottoman conquest Balkans. I'd slightly increase it, especially in Serbia and Northern Bulgaria, both of which were enjoying cultural golden ages in the period.
Part of the reason why development is so low might be that very few towns exist compared to the rest of Europe (and what would be historically appropriate), so I'd suggest a few which seem relatively obvious to add:
Definite additions:
Novo Brdo- while the game starts before its 15th century peak where its population was in the tens of thousands, Novo Brdo was a notable settlement already and had numerous suburbs housing its miners and traders
Trgovište- the old capital of Raška and Serbia, still a notable market town
Bar- seat of a catholic archbishopic and notable coastal town
Skadar- one of the most important cities in Serbia throughout the entire Middle Ages and capital of Zeta
Skoplje- pretty notable city in this period, would soon become the imperial capital
Rudnik- another very important mining settlement and a Bastion of urbanization in then lightly populated Šumadija
And those I'd maybe add, but which were less notable:
Kruševac- rose to be the capital of Serbia under Prince Lazar and a notable town, but its possible to represent this via events rather than having it start off as a town
Užice- capital of the state of Nikola Altomanović, but this might be the least likely one here
Peć- seat of the Patriarchate and an important town, but less notable than Prizren and Novo Brdo
Priština- similiar to above, was a notable trading center, but largely a satellite to Novo Brdo
Prilep- another statelet capital, this one under the Mrnjavčević
Kratovo- notable mining town, but in 1330s it was just beginning its rise
As for roads, I'm happy Via Militaris is in the game, but there were other notable roads in the country, mostly connecting its heartland from Ras to the trading cities of Dubrovnik and Kotor - in red here is the main road I'd definitely add, and in Blue other notable roads, connecting Belgrade to the sea, connecting Skadar to Niš and Sofia, and one running through Central Bosnia
The route connecting Niš to Thessaloniki over Skoplje is a rather important one historically and today, but I can't find anything on it being prominent in the Middle Ages, so I am leaving it for the enterprising player/AI to build to connect their southern conquests. I'm not sure Via Egnatia is fully in though, but it definitely should be!
not sure how many monuments you want included, but the most notable ones in Serbia were generally monasteries, with the most famous ones beinf Gračanica (in Priština), Dečani (in Peć), Studenica (in Brvenik or Žiča) and Žiča (in Žiča, duh!).
Later important monasteries include Holy Archangels Monastery in Prizren (legacy of Emperor Dušan, and supposedly the most beautiful of the monasteries - it however didn't survive Ottoman rule, and as something the player would build, I'd rather represent it than Our Lady of Ljeviš, also in Prizren) and Ravanica and Manasija in Ravno - Manasija is also quite famous for its huge walls.
Niš has a fortress continously used and rebuilt several times since antiquity, and Smederevo later got one of the largest fortresses in Europe when it was built up as the capital. Not sure if either would warrant a special building (and there is of course the famous Kalemegdan Fortress in Belgrade).
I've already mentioned the Glam Silver in Novo Brdo, which I believe warrants a special modifier. Trepča mines similarly produced many different types of metals, so they're also an option for a special modifier.
An interesting work of art to include would be the Panagia Tricherousa, an 8th century icon brought to the Balkans by Saint Sava and which is seen as the holiest icon of the Serbian Orthodox Church. In 1337, it would be in Byzantine possession in Hilandar Monastery, but it was taken to Serbia soon after.
Another cool possible artwork is the White Angel frescoe in the Mileševa Monastery (in Prijepolje), one of the best known frescoe masterpieces in all of Europe.
EDIT: Happy to see Žiča/Studenica, Manasija and the White Angel included! I'd love it if Gračanica and Dečani can also be included, and perhaps the narrative content around Holy Archangels and Panagia Tricherousa
And of course, one can't forget the most important Serbian medieval book, the Miroslav Gospel
EDIT: Happy to see Codex Marianus in, but would still love Miroslav's Gospel!
Possible future works of writing include the Memoirs of a Janissary, either Lament for a Dead Son and Encomium of Prince Lazar, written by the noble nun Jefimija, or later works such as Slavo-Serbian Chronicles by Ðorđe Branković or Lament of Serbia by Zaharije Orfelin.
I have suggestions on ports that should be upgraded (Green), Upgraded A Lot (Blue) or Downgraded (red)
Starting of with the Adriatic:
Major Upgrade:
Bar (the most important port of Montenegro and neighboring Serbia, with the Belgrade-Bar railway being built specifically to connect to it)
Lezhe ( the location of Shengjin/Medua, a very important natural harbour that historically didn't live up to its potential - still, acquiring it was one of the chief political goals of Serbia in the late 19th and early 20th centuries)
Kotor (another major port since antiquity, also includes numerous other small port cities. The Bay of Kotor offers incredible natural defenses almost unmatched outside of Norwegian fjords, and its issues with huge modern ships wouldn't be present in this period. This should be a top level port)
Varna and Burgas are the two most important ports in Bulgaria for most of the period, and are both naturally predisposed as such, they should receive substantial buffs. Similarly, Constanta has traditionally been the main port of Dobruja and Romania
Methoni (Methoni, Koroni and Pylos/Navarino were all major Venetian outposts, and Pylos especially has a natural harbour used since antiquity)
Rhodes (obvious, Rhodes was a major naval power in its own right and it's harbour is legendary)
Samos and Chios (both important ports with huge navies, Chios also includes the wealthy islet of Psara, which once had hundreds of ships as the third biggest Greek fleet, before its destruction in the Greek revolution)
Ermioni and Damala ( while Ermioni is merely a decent port and Damala not one at all, they contain Hydra and Spetses and Poros respectively, the islands with the largest merchant fleets later in the period, which brought them significant wealth)
Demetrias (Volos is one of the most important ports of modern Greece, and it's bay offers natural protection)
Upgrade:
Rijeka (already a decent port, but should be better still - the chief port of Western Balkans since the 18th century)
Zadar (Major port from antiquity until today)
"Metković" (location should be Ploče, another important port, historically served Hum and Bosnia, and still the most important one for Bosnia, over their own Neum)
Durres (Major port since antiquity, Albania's most important one and major Venetian enclave)
Vlore (major port ina protected bay)
Corfu (one of Venice's most prized possessions, major port with good geography for it)
Parga (important port in this period, later replaced somewhat by Igoumenitsa)
Bari (chief Adriatic port of Southern Italy)
Ancona (historically a maritime republic, one of Venice's key rivals in the Adriatic)
Patras and Nafpaktos (both decently significant ports)
Kavala (important port city in a bay)
Ainos (important naval outpost)
A few other Aegean islands, most notably Naxos, could also get buffs given how important the sea is for them and how many good ports there are throughout the many islands.
Downgrade:
Pazin (the town itself is not on the coast. The only port is Labin, which can't compare with Pola and Rijeka)
Kaseg (ports like Karlobag are simply not relevant, Lika is a mountainous region where most of the population lives inland)
Dubrovnik (I'm calling for a very small nerf here, but despite being a maritime republic, Ragusa isn't an amazing natural port, as is reflected in its decline since the fall of the Republic)
This is my full proposal for how I'd set up Serbia's starting societal values. Note - I don't know exactly what ranges you use, just the examples and descriptions we got in previous Tinto Talks
centralization_vs_decentralization = -40
#Serbia was quite centralized by medieval standards, with most of the power concentrated around the Nemanjić dynasty and their shifting court. Dušan's reign in particular was even more centralized than usual, as all other claimants were eliminated in the previous decades. Powerful nobles did exist of course, but they were similiar to the Byzantine system, where they were usually appointed to hold titles by the monarch and couldn't pass them on - this obviously made them much more reliant on the crown, and families shifted around a lot - within 3 generations, the Branković family went from ruling Trebinje to Ohrid to Serres to Kosovo. Of course, this all changed rather suddenly after Dušan's death, so it should be changed in events dealing with the Fall of the Serbian Empire (if it rises)
aristocracy_vs_plutocracy = -70
# while merchants obviously existed in Serbia, the bourgeois class was quite week and dominated by Ragusan merchants. The only city that had a significant mercantile class of its own was Kotor, which functioned as a free city. Otherwise the nobility completely dominated Serbia
serfdom_vs_free_subjects = 20
#Serbia was somewhere in the middle regarding peasant ("sebri") rights. They were divided into several classes -
"meropsi" were the most common by far had basic rights and a well regulated social contract of works and obligations, could sue their lords if they demanded too much, and had legal protection from violence. They couldn't however, move from one noble's land to another noble's land - this was particularly enforced for subjects of the church or monasteries, which owned much land in Serbia.
"Otroci" functioned most like slaves, being employed both at court and ad agricultural workers, with slaves being the most common in Dalmatia. In general, they were relatively rare, and little is known about them, apart from them having the least rights by far.
"Vlasi" were on the other hand very common, and had the most freedom by far. Transient Livestock herders, they could be Vlach (as the name implies), Serbian (Vlach became an often used slur against Serbs in Croatia and Austria) or other by ethnicity (notably Aromanian and Albanian). They moved freely across the country, and even followed their own tribal laws instead of feudal law, in addition to the common laws. The many Serb and Albanian mountain tribes in Montenegro and north Albania are particularly good example.
All of this combined makes me think Serbia should lean slightly towards the Free Subject side.
traditionalist_vs_innovative = -40
#Less objective than the previous ones, but Serbia was not a particularly innovative country and it definitely wasn't pushing the boundaries of medieval science. It's impossible to say how it would have developed further, and it did have a cultural/economic golden age and an early proto-Renaissance under the Despotate in the early 15th century, while Nemanjić Serbia had some innovative architecture and military tactics (notably the hussars are originated here), so I didn't want to make it fully traditionalist either.
spiritualist_vs_humanist = -40
#similiar to above, the church was very powerful in Serbia and had significant influence on the rulers, the education and held huge land domains from frequent gifts from the nobility. Heresy and converting to another religion were illegal, but Catholicism was tolerated and Catholic priests also had certain influence (with papal relations generally being warm as well), as was the small Jewish community. Interestingly, given that Serbia did a much better job of assimilating other Orthodox people into being Serbian than at stamping out other faiths, the humanist bonuses seem to be a better fit.
mercantilism_vs_free_trade = 30
# Difficult to judge due to Serbia having relatively few traders of its own, but I feel that outsourcing all of your trade to another country (mostly Ragusa, but also Venice to an extent) shows a lean towards Free trade - the market protection from Mercantilism makes no sense when Serbia relied on an outside market
offensive_vs_defensive = -60
#another subjective but easyish one. Serbia had recently waged successful expansionist wars and was preparing to wage more quite soon, doubling its territory in just a few years, with Dušan being a master of siege warfare. On the other hand, it was relatively poor at defending, losing Zachlumia to the much weaker Bosnian Kingdom and suffering raids from Hungary. Of course, this also changes majorly after Dušan's death and with the Ottoman invasions, with Serb states largely abandoning offensive wars and offering a spirited defense for decades.
land_vs_naval = -70
#pretty easy, Serbia had no naval presence to speak of except some merchants and fishermen from coastal cities (the sailors from the Bay of Kotor would later play important roles in Venice and in Russia, founding the latter's fleets). Notably Serbian pretensions towards capturing Durres and Salonica were foiled by its lack of a navy. The presence of the Kotor navy and it's long history are the only reason this isn't slanted even further towards land.
quality_vs_quantity = -15
#really stumped here. The mining and metalworking industry probably meant that Serbian soldiers were better armed than many contemporaries, and the army performed relatively well during this period, particularly against the Ottomans (with the exception of the disastrous Maritsa battle). On the other hand, it was also fielding armies of a significant size, 10-15k men is quite a bit in this period compared to Serbia's likely population, and the aforementioned Maritsa might have included >50k men, largely from Macedonia. The solution I went with is having it lean slightly towards quality, while independent Macedonia/Prilep/Serres tag(s) representing the Mrnjavčević domains after the fall of the empire should focus highly on quantity instead.
belligerent_vs_conciliatory = 30
#this might seem odd given that Serbia is about to go on a big conquering spree, but it seems to lean closer to conciliatory for me. The Nemanjić fought relatively few expansionist wars, and usually tried to find casus belli for them in the later ones (i.e. the big Serbian conquest of north Macedonia was justified as dowry for marrying the Byzantine princess). Most notably, and what pushed me towards a notable conciliatory score, was Serbia not pressing the advantage after the big victory at Velbazhd, and signing a lasting peace and alliance instead (despite the Serbian nobility pushing for a war). Serbia also put great efforts into maintaining relations with Venice, Ragusa, Hungary, the Pope and the Croatian nobility, and of course with Byzantium when it was powerful.
capital_economy_vs_traditional_economy = 95
#really no argument here, if Aragon is far off towards the Traditional end, then so is Serbia. The economy was extremely focused on mining, local crafts and agriculture, with no financial institutions and with even trade being minor. There were some cities and burghers though (notably Kotor as mentioned above), so I didn't want to make it a 100
individualism_vs_communalism = 30
# Serbs generally have a communalist rather than an individualist society, but the gameplay buffs work oddly here, as the most comminalist part of the society (the tribes in Montenegrin mountains) are also the part of society most likely to move!
outward_vs_inward = -20
#Serbia seems relatively balanced here, with periods of diplomacy and expansions contrasting periods of internal growth or civil war. As Serbia was particularly expansionist and diplomatic under Dušan, I am giving slight outwardness, another thing which would change with the fall of the empire
I'm so happy to see that Serbia already has narrative content! What I saw in Laith's video was great, though I have a minor nitpick:
The event chain about Dušan crowning himself emperor shouldn't require taking all of Chalkidiki province, as Serbia never conqured Thessaloniki historically. Could give an extra bonus if you do though !
Otherwise, I hope there is an event/disaster about the Fall of the Serbian Empire, as well as events about its battle with the Ottomans and other conflicts of the era (such as the founding of Smederevo, getting Belgrade from Hungary, rivalry with Venice of the coast of Zeta etc.). Possible content could include a conversion to Catholicism, as the Nemanjić kings were close to the West as well, and frequently tried to play the Pope off against the Byzantines.
Artwise, I already mentioned the building of St. Archangels, Ravanica, Manasija and Meteora monasteries, and the Fruška Gora Monasteries in Srem would be good to see if Serbia falls. In general, I hope there are events dealing with the consequences of the Ottoman conquest, such as the Great Serb Migration from Kosovo and Macedonia into Hungary, Serbs moving into Western Bosnia and Croatian Krajina etc. Another cool thing to represent would be some of the larger Serbian revolts in the period, such as the brief Empire of Jovan Nenad (a fascinating historical What If?), or the Great Banat Uprising (which led to the burning of the relics of Saint Sava), and of course, the Serbian Revolution late in the game's period. Will hold off on any alternative history content suggestions for future DLC !
EDIT: I see the Lece event mentions Glubočica - as the new Međeđa / Medveđa location was added, it should apply to it, as thats where Lece is (also where the current Lead deposits are).
Apart from Serbia itself, I hope we get to see some interesting Serbian characters pop up in other nations, such as the erudite swindler Count Ðorđe Branković (mentioned as an artist already) in Austria, or the many Serbs from Kotor Bay who played a crucial role in the Russian expansion east and the founding of its fleets, such as Sava Vladislavich, Mikhail Miloradovich, Semyon Zorich and Marko Voinovich. And of course in the Ottoman Empire, most notably Mehmed Pasha Sokollu, one of the most powerful Grand Viziers, as well as others such as Rustem Pasha (who was more likely Bosnian or Croat), Mahmud Pasha Anđelović or the Malkoçoğlu family, and Mara Branković, stepmother to Mehmed II and one of the most influential women of the century.
I can think of quite a few possible ones, like the Zakonopravilo (which was quite important and forms the basis of religious law in many other Orthodox countries) and Dušan's Code in laws:
If the Bagrationi get an advance, the House of Nemanjić could as well, given that they were the founders of the modern idea of Serbia, and almost every member of the dynasty was sanctified.
Other advances could be more cultural, such as the Slava, Pirot Ćilim, Zlakusa Pottery, Vuk's Linguistic Reforms, and of course Rakija!
As there are so many Rurikovich Saints, more saints should be added to other prominent Orthodox countries - sanctification was VERY common in Orthodoxy, with all Serbian Nemanjić rulers bar Dušan being saints, which is why they're called the 'Holy Dynasty' in Serbia.
The most notable ones that need to be added are Stefan Nemanja (their founder, later became a monk on Athos and is an important saint) and his son Saint Sava (the founder of the autonomous Serbian church and the most important saint in Serbia)
Others include Stefan the First Crowned (also addicted and became a monk shortly before death), his sons Radoslav (spent much of his life as a monk) and Uroš, as well as Uroš's sons Dragutin (also spent much of his later life as a monk) and Milutin (a famed monastery builder, with over 40 significant ones built)
I remember from the streams that Peć becomes a Holy Site when the Patriarchate is founded, so I believe that Žiča should have a minor Holy Site representing Žiča and Studenica, seats of the church and already present as artworks
Another minor Holy Site could be represented in Gradac location, the Ovčar Kablar gorge, one of the two Serbian regions compared to Mount Athos due to its density of monasteries, starting from the early 14th century
Other prominent Orthodox Holy Sites in the Balkans include Rila in Bulgaria (already present in 1337 and later expanded), Ohrid (very prominent religious center for Greeks, Bulgarians and Serbs), Meteora (founded a few decades after 1337) and much later Ostrog and Cetinje in Montenegro.
Other notes on Serbia and Serbian content, as seen from the streams:
Happy to see Serbia and Bulgaria properly allied! Serbia should also probably be historical friends with Hungary, as despite some warring early on in the period, the two were quite close both right before and during their existence within the game's timeframe.
Given the very close relation with Bulgaria, I would suggest that if Dušan is successful enough (i.e. takes Constantinople) there should be an option to peacefully make Bulgaria a vassal. On the other hand, should Serbia lose too much territory to either Byzantium or a Turkish state, it should look to Hungary to become a vassal of it.
Flavor text: One of the events mentions the "Serbian Patriarchate in Peja". The city name here should be changed to Peć, not Peja. Even if you use the Albanian name for the city (Serbian names are still more commonly the international standard), the Patriarchate itself would still be using the Serbian city name.
In the introductory text, after the paragraph of :
"Under the rule of Stefan 'the First-Crowned', Serbia’s territorial expansion accelerated, and the acquisition of coastal regions on the Adriatic Sea secured access to maritime trade and introduced Western influences. Stefan's son, King Radoslav, promoted the country's cultural development, fostering education and art, and monasteries like Studenica and Žiča flourished, housing precious religious manuscripts and frescoes."
I'd also mention at the end Stefan Uroš I, who had a much longer reign than Radoslav, and was especially noted for economic progress of Serbia, inviting Saxon miners.
I'd also mention in the paragraph on Milutin and Dragutin that despite their squabbles, they both enlarged the country - Milutin in Macedonia and Dragutin towards the Danube, and of course I'd mention Dušan's victory at Velbazhd while he was still a young prince, which set the stage for the political situation in the Balkans in 1337.
Thanks again for all of your awesome work and for picking a start date where Serbia is in its full glory! I hope you find this at least somewhat useful, and that at least the simple fixes from it get implemented.
According to Red Hawk's video the burghers in Serbia are Měšťanstvo and the clergy are Kler. I would recommend changing Měšťanstvo (class* of the inhabitants of a city/place in old* West and East Slavic languages (this one iz Czech)) to Građanstvo (class of the inhabitants of a city in Serbian and other South Slavic languages(?)) because that word doesn't and, to my knowledge, never existed in the Serbian language. Also somebody wrote on a thread once that Kler should be changed to Sveštenstvo, but I find that word pretty modern because there are more fitting words for the period like the aforementioned Kler and Klir. I think Klir hits a little closer to home because it was used in the coronation of Dušan (1331, king) written by a disciple of archbishop Danilo II. Also Kler is usually tied to the Catholic church and Klir to the Orthodox church, so I recommend changing that too.
According to Red Hawk's video the burghers in Serbia are Měšťanstvo and the clergy are Kler. I would recommend changing Měšťanstvo (class* of the inhabitants of a city/place in old* West and East Slavic languages (this one iz Czech)) to Građanstvo (class of the inhabitants of a city in Serbian and other South Slavic languages(?)) because that word doesn't and, to my knowledge, never existed in the Serbian language. Also somebody wrote on a thread once that Kler should be changed to Sveštenstvo, but I find that word pretty modern because there are more fitting words for the period like the aforementioned Kler and Klir. I think Klir hits a little closer to home because it was used in the coronation of Dušan (1331, king) written by a disciple of archbishop Danilo II. Also Kler is usually tied to the Catholic church and Klir to the Orthodox church, so I recommend changing that too.
Are we ever going to get tinto talks about the Ottomans/Beyliks or Islam? I either missed them (which I doubt) or I am getting edged very hard. I would like to die in peace.
In the To the gates of Kontantinoupolis event, shouldn't you get claims on Lower Macedonia instead of Central Macedonia, if that's what's needed to complete the event?
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