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Tinto Flavour #23 - 30th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome one more Friday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, a day after an infamous anniversary, we will be taking a look at the Byzantine Empire - or Eastern Roman Empire, as you’re free to pick the custom name you prefer for it, as it’s a game rule that you can set before starting the game:
Game Rule Byzantium.png

Game Rule Eastern Roman Empire.png

Let’s now start with the content itself:

Once a proud Empire that stretched from Egypt and the Levant to Iberia and Italy, Byzantium now faces a decadent period that began almost three centuries ago. During his reign, Emperor Andronikos II Palaiologos saw fit to dissolve several key institutions, such as the Navy, in an attempt to save the dying economy of the country, while the Theme System continued to be a shadow of what it was, as the Empire lost territory across all fronts.

His successor, Emperor Andronikos III Palaiologos, is now faced with the difficult task of safeguarding what remains of our once-glorious Empire. To our east, the Ottomans have started amassing a large army to wipe out our remaining holdings in Anatolia, threatening to set foot across the straits. At the same time, King Stefan Uroš IV Dušan Nemanjić eyes Thessaloníki and Northern Epirus like a vulture. Meanwhile, our treasury runs dry of precious coin, and the country may yet be thrown into a perilous civil war, as the family of our Emperor conspires with the Dynatoí behind closed doors.
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Country Selection.png

Country Tooltip.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

Byzantium1.png

Eastern Roman Empire1.png

As I don’t want to spark yet another Byzantine discussion, and its subsequent civil war, here you have a couple of map screenshots, with a different country name option each!​

Byzantium (which is the name that I will use from now on, as being the most commonly used by the community) starts with a bunch of reforms and privileges:
Estates.png

Most of the Estate Privileges are generic ones, but there’s a unique one for each estate. We will show them in a later section of the TF, as they’re related to the Byzantine Succession Crisis, a disaster that may happen to Byzantium early on.

Regarding the starting reforms, the first is a generic one, while the other two are unique ones:
Reform Autocracy.png

Reform Theme System.png

Building Thema Headquarters.png

Reform Kritai Katholikon.png

Byzantium starts with a ‘State Patriarchy’ policy, as shown last Wednesday:
Policy State Patriarchy.png

And some other unique policies:
Policy Pronoia System.png

Policy Byzantine Law.png

It also has quite a bunch of starting works of art:
Works of Art1.png

Works of Art2.png

The Theodosian Walls are also represented through a unique building:
Building Theodosian Walls.png

Byzantium also has a bunch of advances; we are going to focus on the early-game, historical ones, as they also unlock some Byzantine unique units:
Advance Heart of Orthodoxy.png

Advance Late Cataphracts.png

Unit Byzantine Cataphracts.png

Advance Akritai.png

Unit Akritai.png

Advance Shield of the West.png

Cabinet Action Extensive Conscription.png

Advance Poikilia.png

Advance Expand Varangian Guard.png

Unit Varangians.png

Advance City Taker.png

Unit Modernized Helepolis.png

Let’s now move on to the narrative content for Byzantium. As I mentioned previously, a Succession Crisis is latent in the country, and that would historically lead to the Byzantine Civil War of 1341-1347, which allowed King Stefan Dusan of Serbia to occupy Macedonia and proclaim himself emperor, the Bulgarians to recover some borderlands, and seriously debilitated the country, making it easier for the Ottomans to gain a foothold across the Sea of Marmara, from Gallipoli.

We’re portraying this latent crisis and the general state of decay of the country by some starting privileges, plus some starting inflation, low funds and stability, etc.:
Privilege Corruption Nobility.png

Privilege Corruption Burghers.png

Privilege Corruption Clergy.png

Privilege Corruption Commoners.png

This situation will also spawn in your neighborhood a couple of months after the game starts, although we will talk more in detail about it next Friday:
The Turkish Threat.png

And it’s very likely that this disaster may end up triggering early after the start of the game, if you are not careful enough:
Succession Crisis.png

Succession Crisis2.png

Succession Crisis3.png

It is something we internally call Semi-Generic Disaster. This means that while it uses the texts, panel, etc. of the generic ‘Succession Crisis’ disaster, some countries have unique triggers, events, and content attached to it, so the player can experience similar, but different crisis. The Byzantine Succession Crisis is one of those, therefore.

Independent of whether the player succeeds or not in defeating the Succession Crisis, and not weakening much in the process, Byzantium has a bunch of Dynamic Historical Events:
Event Hesychasm.png


Event Decline Palaiologos Renaissance.png


Event Reforming Kritai Katholikon.png

Reform Reformed Kratoi Katholikon.png


Event Acritic Songs.png


Event Song of Armouris.png


Event Kosntantinos Armenopoulos.png


Event Center of Learning.png


Event Gemistos Plethon.png

Event Gemistos Plethon2.png

Byzantium also has some alt-historical events, one of the few exceptions we make in the game, to include some plausible content in case that Byzantium avoid its decadence…

… However you will have to find it by playing the game when we release it, as that’s all for today! As today is Friday, this will be the schedule for next week:
  • Monday -> Tinto Maps Feedback about the Steppes
  • Tuesday -> Tinto Flavour about the Golden Horde
  • Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about Islam
  • Thursday -> Fourth ‘Behind the Scenes’ video!
  • Friday -> Tinto Flavour about the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!
And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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Searry said:
I hope you'll include an option to call it Rhomaniia.
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From what I understand about how the name on the map works in this case it would probably be something like the short name is Rhomania and then the long name (so like France vs. Kingdom of France) would be Basilea Ton Rhomaion.

Response to dev diary: We need a joke formable where you can form the Western Byzantine Empire as the cadet branch Paleogous-Montferrat in Italy.

Also (this is more of a real suggestion) it would be awesome if the Byz tag still had dynamic names on the off chance it changes government type. An Eastern Roman Republic would be cool alt history (yes I’ve read the Kaldelis book you know what I mean lol)
 
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Bestiliand said:
It should exist the possibility to call the country “Roman Empire” as was the real name used by the administration and people.

“Eastern” was not used since 476, and Odoacro and later ostrogoths recognized themselves as theoretical vassals of Eastern Roman Empire and send imperial symbols to then, so Roman Emperor claimed that Empire was reunified and was after that “Roman Empire”.

Later they even captured Italy and Rome for some centuries, so the “Eastern” is incorrect. If the name election is added for history freaks, then Eastern is wrong
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Well, yeah, obviously that's correct, but we know there's going to be a goofy "Move the capital to Rome even though it's an irrelevant backwater and rename yourself what you already called yourself and declare your culture is now Roman even though that's what you already called yourselves" decision, so you gotta go with what you can get.
 
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giorgosth128 said:
I mean we have no idea when Andronikos III feel ill with Malaria so to just rairoad his dead just so the civil war can start its just wrong to me. this system is better more dynamic.
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It's not necessary to railroad it (though, for me, given how close it is to the start date, I prefer it to be railroaded than to be erased and filled with some random rebellion). Ideally, you should have the chance to stabilize the empire a little bit more with Andronikos before his death, averting the war. They could make so that it's likely, but not certain, that Andronikos would die young, therefore leaving an infant heir, which would cause the civil war situation to start. Then, in a series of events you could side with the regents or with Kantakouzenos, or try to make peace between the two factions.
 
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Also, please let us choose another option to call it Roman Empire. Calling it Eastern is stupid beyond belief, even when there were two emperors they never thought of it as two different empires, and there were no two emperors since almost a millennium ago.
 
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I'm not concerned about the name, that's always going to be contentious. What I am concerned about is the "Shield of the West" advance. Everything else here looks wonderfully flavourful for the period--Acritic songs, civil wars, Gemistos stirring up trouble, attempts to adopt gunpowder--but this idea that Byzantium (Rhomania, what have you) was a "bulwark" defending "western civilisation" from "eastern barbarism" was always a western idea. It was an ideological role they could slot the empire into, to make it something that existed to serve them, as part of the self-mythmaking of the Renaissance. It's especially egregious to see it used here for a state that's not had that long since it had to reconquer its capital from westerners! It really just doesn't feel like it belongs as part of the Roman/Byzantine self-conception; might be more fitting for some kind of Latin-empire-alike state.
 
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1748695792321.png


Just gonna go back to this. Having a little in joke with the forum pre release is fine. I accept that it is all in good fun, obviously. I don't think for a second though, that it is appropriate to have this text in the game on release. This needs to change.
 
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Lord Lambert said:
View attachment 1310138

Just gonna go back to this. Having a little in joke with the forum pre release is fine. I accept that it is all in good fun, obviously. I don't think for a second though, that it is appropriate to have this text in the game on release. This needs to change.
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EU4’s writing style was like this about pretty much everything though? I will say I think it would be funny if all of the name choices were sarcastic in a different way though. Like if you chose Byzantium it mentions how they identified, you choose the ERE it mentions how far away it is, if you chose Rhomania it mentions how the game isn’t being played in medieval romaic/greek.
 
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Lord Lambert said:
View attachment 1310138

Just gonna go back to this. Having a little in joke with the forum pre release is fine. I accept that it is all in good fun, obviously. I don't think for a second though, that it is appropriate to have this text in the game on release. This needs to change.
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Yea. I think the wording in how this is done in CK3 is better plus there is an even sillier option :p

Byzantine EmpireByzantine Empire will be named Byzantine Empire
Eastern Roman EmpireByzantine Empire will be named Eastern Roman Empire
Roman EmpireByzantine Empire will be named Roman Empire
Empire of RomaniaByzantine Empire will be named Empire of Romania
Empire of the GreeksByzantine Empire will be named Empire of the Greeks
Basileia tōn RhōmaiōnByzantine Empire will be named Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn
​
Unholy Roman EmpireByzantine Empire will be named Unholy Roman Empire

there is no messing around with oh the greek state. the game rule uses the name Byzantium but can let you rename it to far more, including yes Unholy Roman Empire. I think just borrowing what CK3 has done would be the best.
 
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vyshan said:
Yea. I think the wording in how this is done in CK3 is better plus there is an even sillier option :p

Byzantine EmpireByzantine Empire will be named Byzantine Empire
Eastern Roman EmpireByzantine Empire will be named Eastern Roman Empire
Roman EmpireByzantine Empire will be named Roman Empire
Empire of RomaniaByzantine Empire will be named Empire of Romania
Empire of the GreeksByzantine Empire will be named Empire of the Greeks
Basileia tōn RhōmaiōnByzantine Empire will be named Basileia tōn Rhōmaiōn
​
Unholy Roman EmpireByzantine Empire will be named Unholy Roman Empire

there is no messing around with oh the greek state. the game rule uses the name Byzantium but can let you rename it to far more, including yes Unholy Roman Empire. I think just borrowing what CK3 has done would be the best.
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It doesnt have my favourite option Empire of the Romans (though that is just the english translation of Basileia ton Rhomaion so I guess it does) but otherwise yeah that would work.

Personally though, this game is aiming for historical accuracy. Its aiming to be a bit more serious and grown up than what the CK franchise goes for. I dont think its appropriate to take the piss out of your playerbase and I dont think having the more ridiculous options is appropriate either.
 
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Byzantine Empire sounds wrong as default it is a name used after the ceased to exist

Are the name based on how we call the nations today or how they were called?

Maybe default could be different, depending on region or religion as western europe refused to call them romans, the pope and hre claimed to be the true inheritors and called them greek instead.

But the people living there considered themselves as Romans and living in Roman land.

I mean I did just read Wikipedia several times before out of curiosity maybe the information was wrong. Can't always trust Wikipedia!
 
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Lord Lambert said:
It doesnt have my favourite option Empire of the Romans (though that is just the english translation of Basileia ton Rhomaion so I guess it does) but otherwise yeah that would work.

Personally though, this game is aiming for historical accuracy. It’s aiming to be a bit more serious and grown up than what the CK franchise goes for. I dont think it’s appropriate to take the piss out of your playerbase and I dont think having the more ridiculous options is appropriate either.
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I think the default should be Empire of the Romans, with the option to also choose the Eastern Roman Empire or Byzantium. However, if you manage to reunite the Roman Empire, you unlock the silly names as a reward for accomplishing something difficult.
 
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Plaguerr said:
Will we be able to restore the Roman Empire as the Byzantines? I sure would hope so :oops:
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why? you are already the roman empire. Plus as per the formable dev diary rome is an ahistorical formable.
 
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Quget said:
Byzantine Empire sounds wrong as default it is a name used after the ceased to exist

Are the name based on how we call the nations today or how they were called?

Maybe default could be different, depending on region or religion as western europe refused to call them romans, the pope and hre claimed to be the true inheritors and called them greek instead.

But the people living there considered themselves as Romans and living in Roman land.

I mean I did just read Wikipedia several times before out of curiosity maybe the information was wrong. Can't always trust Wikipedia!
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They’re named how we call them today in the language you play the game in but depending on your size on the map your tag name changes to the longer “full name”

So for example regularly the tag is called Byzantium but once there is enough room on the map it is called Byzantine Empire.

You could imagine a scenario like this in game rules

Localized Endonym: Rome to Empire of the Romans

Endonym: Rhomania to Basielia Ton Rhomanian

ERE: Eastern Rome to Eastern Roman Empire

Byz: Byzantium to Byzantine Empire
 
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Probably someone has already pointed out, but water on the map looks too bright and cartoonish imo. It does not fit into a GSG of this scale.
Maybe it should be darker and more 'real'.

Current colour​
Suggested something like that​
Water.png
WaterDark1.png
 
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Pavía said:
a Succession Crisis is latent in the country, and that would historically lead to the Byzantine Civil War of 1341-1347, which allowed King Stefan Dusan of Serbia to occupy Macedonia and proclaim himself emperor, the Bulgarians to recover some borderlands, and seriously debilitated the country, making it easier for the Ottomans to gain a foothold across the Sea of Marmara, from Gallipoli
Click to expand...
In the YouTubers' videos of eu5, we didn't see it happen at all by the AI, will that be updated/changed?
 
Pavía said:
We're giving cores to places lost 50 years before the start of the game (in this case, after 1270, to be more precise). If you have any suggestions, they're welcome, as usual.
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The Byzantine Empire should have significantly more cores in Anatolia than it currently does. Especially on the Ottomans.

Please refer to the maps below. By the 1280s, the Ottomans had only conquered the areas marked in yellow or blue (depending on the map). The Byzantine presence - though increasingly fragile - remained prominent, as they still controlled the majority of western/northwestern Anatolia.

ottoman_expansion.png


ottoman_expansion2.jpg

-Taken from Kings and Generals 'Rise of the Ottoman Empire - From Kosovo to Constantinople DOCUMENTARY'


EDIT:

Eastern Romans should also have cores on southern Bulgaria, especially Burgos/Mesembria area (by the Black Sea coast).

mesembria.jpg


byzantine_1300.png
 
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putting my two cents into this. even the greek history text books call it byzantine empire even though they make clear its the contination of the Roman empire so all this debate seems a bit fruitless to me.
 
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