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Tinto Flavour #23 - 30th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome one more Friday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, a day after an infamous anniversary, we will be taking a look at the Byzantine Empire - or Eastern Roman Empire, as you’re free to pick the custom name you prefer for it, as it’s a game rule that you can set before starting the game:
Game Rule Byzantium.png

Game Rule Eastern Roman Empire.png

Let’s now start with the content itself:

Once a proud Empire that stretched from Egypt and the Levant to Iberia and Italy, Byzantium now faces a decadent period that began almost three centuries ago. During his reign, Emperor Andronikos II Palaiologos saw fit to dissolve several key institutions, such as the Navy, in an attempt to save the dying economy of the country, while the Theme System continued to be a shadow of what it was, as the Empire lost territory across all fronts.

His successor, Emperor Andronikos III Palaiologos, is now faced with the difficult task of safeguarding what remains of our once-glorious Empire. To our east, the Ottomans have started amassing a large army to wipe out our remaining holdings in Anatolia, threatening to set foot across the straits. At the same time, King Stefan Uroš IV Dušan Nemanjić eyes Thessaloníki and Northern Epirus like a vulture. Meanwhile, our treasury runs dry of precious coin, and the country may yet be thrown into a perilous civil war, as the family of our Emperor conspires with the Dynatoí behind closed doors.
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Country Selection.png

Country Tooltip.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

Byzantium1.png

Eastern Roman Empire1.png

As I don’t want to spark yet another Byzantine discussion, and its subsequent civil war, here you have a couple of map screenshots, with a different country name option each!​

Byzantium (which is the name that I will use from now on, as being the most commonly used by the community) starts with a bunch of reforms and privileges:
Estates.png

Most of the Estate Privileges are generic ones, but there’s a unique one for each estate. We will show them in a later section of the TF, as they’re related to the Byzantine Succession Crisis, a disaster that may happen to Byzantium early on.

Regarding the starting reforms, the first is a generic one, while the other two are unique ones:
Reform Autocracy.png

Reform Theme System.png

Building Thema Headquarters.png

Reform Kritai Katholikon.png

Byzantium starts with a ‘State Patriarchy’ policy, as shown last Wednesday:
Policy State Patriarchy.png

And some other unique policies:
Policy Pronoia System.png

Policy Byzantine Law.png

It also has quite a bunch of starting works of art:
Works of Art1.png

Works of Art2.png

The Theodosian Walls are also represented through a unique building:
Building Theodosian Walls.png

Byzantium also has a bunch of advances; we are going to focus on the early-game, historical ones, as they also unlock some Byzantine unique units:
Advance Heart of Orthodoxy.png

Advance Late Cataphracts.png

Unit Byzantine Cataphracts.png

Advance Akritai.png

Unit Akritai.png

Advance Shield of the West.png

Cabinet Action Extensive Conscription.png

Advance Poikilia.png

Advance Expand Varangian Guard.png

Unit Varangians.png

Advance City Taker.png

Unit Modernized Helepolis.png

Let’s now move on to the narrative content for Byzantium. As I mentioned previously, a Succession Crisis is latent in the country, and that would historically lead to the Byzantine Civil War of 1341-1347, which allowed King Stefan Dusan of Serbia to occupy Macedonia and proclaim himself emperor, the Bulgarians to recover some borderlands, and seriously debilitated the country, making it easier for the Ottomans to gain a foothold across the Sea of Marmara, from Gallipoli.

We’re portraying this latent crisis and the general state of decay of the country by some starting privileges, plus some starting inflation, low funds and stability, etc.:
Privilege Corruption Nobility.png

Privilege Corruption Burghers.png

Privilege Corruption Clergy.png

Privilege Corruption Commoners.png

This situation will also spawn in your neighborhood a couple of months after the game starts, although we will talk more in detail about it next Friday:
The Turkish Threat.png

And it’s very likely that this disaster may end up triggering early after the start of the game, if you are not careful enough:
Succession Crisis.png

Succession Crisis2.png

Succession Crisis3.png

It is something we internally call Semi-Generic Disaster. This means that while it uses the texts, panel, etc. of the generic ‘Succession Crisis’ disaster, some countries have unique triggers, events, and content attached to it, so the player can experience similar, but different crisis. The Byzantine Succession Crisis is one of those, therefore.

Independent of whether the player succeeds or not in defeating the Succession Crisis, and not weakening much in the process, Byzantium has a bunch of Dynamic Historical Events:
Event Hesychasm.png


Event Decline Palaiologos Renaissance.png


Event Reforming Kritai Katholikon.png

Reform Reformed Kratoi Katholikon.png


Event Acritic Songs.png


Event Song of Armouris.png


Event Kosntantinos Armenopoulos.png


Event Center of Learning.png


Event Gemistos Plethon.png

Event Gemistos Plethon2.png

Byzantium also has some alt-historical events, one of the few exceptions we make in the game, to include some plausible content in case that Byzantium avoid its decadence…

… However you will have to find it by playing the game when we release it, as that’s all for today! As today is Friday, this will be the schedule for next week:
  • Monday -> Tinto Maps Feedback about the Steppes
  • Tuesday -> Tinto Flavour about the Golden Horde
  • Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about Islam
  • Thursday -> Fourth ‘Behind the Scenes’ video!
  • Friday -> Tinto Flavour about the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!
And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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Kotyk-durkotyk said:
Probably someone has already pointed out, but water on the map looks too bright and cartoonish imo. It does not fit into a GSG of this scale.
Maybe it should be darker and more 'real'.

Current​
Suggested something like that​
View attachment 1310170View attachment 1310180
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it should be a spectrum from arid to arctic oceans with warmer climates having brighter water and colder climates being the inverse
 
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Aquila SPQR said:
Sensless comparison you say...

Basically that's what "westerners" were doing. Quote from the original document from 968:

"But, to increase my calamities, on the day of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary the holy mother of God (August 15), there came an evil augury for me - envoys of the apostolic and universal pope John, through whom he asked Nicephorus, "the emperor of the Greeks" to close an alliance and firm friendship with his beloved and spiritual son Otto "august emperor of the Romans." Before the question as to why - this word, this manner of address, sinful and bold in the eyes of the Greeks, did not cost its bearer his life - why he was not annihilated before it was read, I, who, in other respects, have often shown myself enough of a preacher and with words enough at my command, seem dumb as a fish! The Greeks inveighed against the sea, cursed the waves, and wondered exceedingly how they had been able to transport such an iniquity end why the yawning deep had not swallowed up the ship. "Was it not unpardonable," they said, "to have called the universal emperor of the Romans, the august, great, only Nicephorus: "of the Greeks"'; -a barbarian, a pauper: of the Romans'? Oh sky! Oh earth! Oh sea! But what," they said, " shall we do to those scoundrels, those criminals?" They are paupers, and if we kill them we pollute our hands with vile blood; they are ragged, they are slaves, they are peasants; if we beat them we disgrace not them, but ourselves; for they are not worthy of the gilded Roman flail and of such punishments. Oh would that one were a bishop, another a margrave! For sewing them in sacks, after stinging blows with whips, after plucking out their beards or their hair, they would be thrown into the sea. But these," they said, " may continue to live; and, until the holy emperor of the Romans, Nicephorus, learns of this atrocity, they may languish in narrow confinement."

If you think the story of Deutsch Tanzanians and Vandal Chancellor of Berliner Republic is dumb then congratulations - it's as dumb as German guy pretending to be "emperor of the Romans" addressing Nicephorus, the true Roman emperor, as "emperor of the Greeks".

And don't try to argue he had any authority to do that, because (universal empire, pope, Irene, great idea of christian empire etc.). It didn't matter.
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Again, it is irrelevant how legitimate you believe each claim to emperorship to be, by game start, the latins had refused to recognized the roman/universal emperorship of the byzantines for 500 years, that's almost as long as the fall of contantinople to this day. You seem to be under the confussion that international recognition of a name is irrelevant, and yet, even in the modern day, it is not (hence the whole north macedonia/fyrom naming issue).
And yes, the 'roman empire' was understood to be the universal monarchy, the byzantines being recognized as the 'roman empire' by the west would have basically required you to solve the great schism.
 
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I feel like the corruption 'privileges' should be reduced in their penalty, prior to the Andronikos III death in 1341 the empires were relatively stable internal and external, he secured peace with Bulgaria/Serbia. I think the negative modifiers should be reduced in scale. Only when Andronikos III dies and his heir is not of age, thus the civil war is unavoidable, should be full corruption privileges be accessible. As we seen from secession crisis panel, we can ask for the support of each faction and so by asking for help, should the full corruption privileges be implemented.
1.png

For this one: I would say remove satisfaction from it entirely, halve the morale, the power and tax reduction.

2.png


Similar to first one, halves all the modifiers, remove the satisfaction but keep the trade capacity one intact because, this would represent Merchant Republic stranglehold on Roman Trade.

3.png


Same as the first one.

4.png


Honestly, just remove it entirely because you cannot interface with commoner estate through civil war mechanics. The truth is Andronikos II and Andronikos III were already heavily taxing the peasantry because aristocracy of the Empire already held most of wealth in the country. Not to mention, the Merchant Republic were already getting rich off of generous tax exemption that previous emperor Andronikos II, implemented.

TBH, it feels like in its current iteration, that you are being punished for playing ERE because they are 'suppose' to fall to make way for the green blob of death.
 
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Atromb said:
Again, it is irrelevant how legitimate you believe each claim to emperorship to be, by game start, the latins had refused to recognized the roman/universal emperorship of the byzantines for 500 years, that's almost as long as the fall of contantinople to this day. You seem to be under the confussion that international recognition of a name is irrelevant, and yet, even in the modern day, it is not (hence the whole north macedonia/fyrom naming issue).
Click to expand...

I just saying that some German guy getting illegally crowned "Roman emperor" changed nothing when it comes to the legitimacy of the Roman emperors, Roman empire and Roman people. In a long litany of "why Romans should not be called Romans" arguments it's one of the most often cited. "Those guys who are literally a direct, uninterrupted continuation of the empire of Augustus aren't Romans! But that German guy is a legitimate Roman emperor, duh!"

I will point out absurdity of such logic whenever I'll see it repeated somewhere.

Atromb said:
And yes, the 'roman empire' was understood to be the universal monarchy, the byzantines being recognized as the 'roman empire' by the west would have basically required you to solve the great schism.
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Why should anyone care how Germans "understood the Roman empire"? I mean - it's absolutely correct to try to understand their motives and choices and beliefs in academic study to understand their lives and worldview better, but why should we, modern people, follow their logic and accept their way of thinking? There was only one Roman empire of that time. One. And its capital was Constantinople. No amount of creative thinking could've changed that. The crafted idea that "Romans will be recognized as Romans only if they 'solve' the great schism" is simply dumb, as their Romanness isn't something that can be taken from or regained by them, and Germans (or anyone else) have literally no authority to decide if they're Roman or not. I can understand why Germans shared such belief, but I can't possibly imagine how a modern person could fall for it.
 
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I didn't get all the discussion, but I hope they don't spoil the "tranlatio imperii" development that we had in "europa universalis 4" and the possibility of the player restoring the roman empire because some member of the forum thinks that certain conceptions prevailing in the game timeline are not of his personal taste.
 
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Kauê II said:
I didn't get all the discussion, but I hope they don't spoil the "tranlatio imperii" development that we had in "europa universalis 4" and the possibility of the player restoring the roman empire because some member of the forum thinks that certain conceptions prevailing in the game timeline are not of his personal taste.
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It's not a matter of taste, but facts and logic.

The game will have ahistorical content (it already has), so don't worry. It's just a game, it'll allow all players whatever alternative scenarios they dream of, even to form Roman Empire with Ulm if they so desire.
 
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Big_birdy said:
it should be a spectrum from arid to arctic oceans with warmer climates having brighter water and colder climates being the inverse
Click to expand...
i quickly made a map to show my suggestion with sea colour based on climate and terrain type
I had to use the culture map because the country map didn't exist on the Iberia feedback post
cool seas.png
 
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Romanix90 said:
I have couple of questions

1. Will the player be able to promote other cultures and even spread them in desired, reasonable locations? Let's say that as ERE I want to spread Bosnian into Serbian cultured territories.

2. Will the player be able to hybridize the culture. like for example Greco - Armenian or Greco - Serbian?
Click to expand...
1 yes it has been said that you can assimilate towards accepted cultures
2 no, they initially had it impossible to make new cultures at all, now if you are at least a kingdom and not the dominant tag of your primary culture you can make a new culture
 
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A reminder that the Code of Conduct includes:

Repeatedly posting the same post or topic in a forum, or across multiple forums, is considered spamming. ​

I would encourage reporting posts where the poster is just repeating themselves.

The CoC also includes:

the following behaviors and content are not permitted...
  • Modern political topics when discussing our games...
 
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A bit strange calling it "Corruption of the common people" considering it talks about people refusing to play part in an outragously corrupt system overall whatwith the nobles refusing to govern, the clergy refusing to delegitimize them and the crown being more interested in starting civil wars with itself than actually solving any of that.
 
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Had a dad said:
Not exactly a friendly thing to do. Do you just enjoy echo chambers?
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Bro you're a moderator, would you prefer I argue with someone who immediately resorted to "pick up a history book"?
And no, I don't want echo chambers, I am perfectly happy with people disagreeing with me as long as it is civil and informed.
 
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these are great but can we have even more options? like the unholy roman empire or THE REAL holy roman empire or just roman empire or the other roman empire or the holy greek empire maybe?
 
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giorgosth128 said:
putting my two cents into this. even the greek history text books call it byzantine empire even though they make clear its the contination of the Roman empire so all this debate seems a bit fruitless to me.
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because they use the historiographic term, not the historical one. The ones they write the books for school are professors themselves so it makes sense in that context
 
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giorgosth128 said:
putting my two cents into this. even the greek history text books call it byzantine empire even though they make clear its the contination of the Roman empire so all this debate seems a bit fruitless to me.
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Do they even matter? Rhomaniia was the most important state in europe for most of the time it existed(before the pre-Palaiagoloid crash). Modern Greeks are in no way related to them except linguisticly.
 
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