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Tinto Flavour #23 - 30th of May 2025

Hello, and welcome one more Friday to Tinto Flavour, the happy days in which we take a look at the flavour content of Europa Universalis V!

Today, a day after an infamous anniversary, we will be taking a look at the Byzantine Empire - or Eastern Roman Empire, as you’re free to pick the custom name you prefer for it, as it’s a game rule that you can set before starting the game:
Game Rule Byzantium.png

Game Rule Eastern Roman Empire.png

Let’s now start with the content itself:

Once a proud Empire that stretched from Egypt and the Levant to Iberia and Italy, Byzantium now faces a decadent period that began almost three centuries ago. During his reign, Emperor Andronikos II Palaiologos saw fit to dissolve several key institutions, such as the Navy, in an attempt to save the dying economy of the country, while the Theme System continued to be a shadow of what it was, as the Empire lost territory across all fronts.

His successor, Emperor Andronikos III Palaiologos, is now faced with the difficult task of safeguarding what remains of our once-glorious Empire. To our east, the Ottomans have started amassing a large army to wipe out our remaining holdings in Anatolia, threatening to set foot across the straits. At the same time, King Stefan Uroš IV Dušan Nemanjić eyes Thessaloníki and Northern Epirus like a vulture. Meanwhile, our treasury runs dry of precious coin, and the country may yet be thrown into a perilous civil war, as the family of our Emperor conspires with the Dynatoí behind closed doors.

Country Selection.png

Country Tooltip.png

As usual, please consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

Byzantium1.png

Eastern Roman Empire1.png

As I don’t want to spark yet another Byzantine discussion, and its subsequent civil war, here you have a couple of map screenshots, with a different country name option each!

Byzantium (which is the name that I will use from now on, as being the most commonly used by the community) starts with a bunch of reforms and privileges:
Estates.png

Most of the Estate Privileges are generic ones, but there’s a unique one for each estate. We will show them in a later section of the TF, as they’re related to the Byzantine Succession Crisis, a disaster that may happen to Byzantium early on.

Regarding the starting reforms, the first is a generic one, while the other two are unique ones:
Reform Autocracy.png

Reform Theme System.png

Building Thema Headquarters.png

Reform Kritai Katholikon.png

Byzantium starts with a ‘State Patriarchy’ policy, as shown last Wednesday:
Policy State Patriarchy.png

And some other unique policies:
Policy Pronoia System.png

Policy Byzantine Law.png

It also has quite a bunch of starting works of art:
Works of Art1.png

Works of Art2.png

The Theodosian Walls are also represented through a unique building:
Building Theodosian Walls.png

Byzantium also has a bunch of advances; we are going to focus on the early-game, historical ones, as they also unlock some Byzantine unique units:
Advance Heart of Orthodoxy.png

Advance Late Cataphracts.png

Unit Byzantine Cataphracts.png

Advance Akritai.png

Unit Akritai.png

Advance Shield of the West.png

Cabinet Action Extensive Conscription.png

Advance Poikilia.png

Advance Expand Varangian Guard.png

Unit Varangians.png

Advance City Taker.png

Unit Modernized Helepolis.png

Let’s now move on to the narrative content for Byzantium. As I mentioned previously, a Succession Crisis is latent in the country, and that would historically lead to the Byzantine Civil War of 1341-1347, which allowed King Stefan Dusan of Serbia to occupy Macedonia and proclaim himself emperor, the Bulgarians to recover some borderlands, and seriously debilitated the country, making it easier for the Ottomans to gain a foothold across the Sea of Marmara, from Gallipoli.

We’re portraying this latent crisis and the general state of decay of the country by some starting privileges, plus some starting inflation, low funds and stability, etc.:
Privilege Corruption Nobility.png

Privilege Corruption Burghers.png

Privilege Corruption Clergy.png

Privilege Corruption Commoners.png

This situation will also spawn in your neighborhood a couple of months after the game starts, although we will talk more in detail about it next Friday:
The Turkish Threat.png

And it’s very likely that this disaster may end up triggering early after the start of the game, if you are not careful enough:
Succession Crisis.png

Succession Crisis2.png

Succession Crisis3.png

It is something we internally call Semi-Generic Disaster. This means that while it uses the texts, panel, etc. of the generic ‘Succession Crisis’ disaster, some countries have unique triggers, events, and content attached to it, so the player can experience similar, but different crisis. The Byzantine Succession Crisis is one of those, therefore.

Independent of whether the player succeeds or not in defeating the Succession Crisis, and not weakening much in the process, Byzantium has a bunch of Dynamic Historical Events:
Event Hesychasm.png


Event Decline Palaiologos Renaissance.png


Event Reforming Kritai Katholikon.png

Reform Reformed Kratoi Katholikon.png


Event Acritic Songs.png


Event Song of Armouris.png


Event Kosntantinos Armenopoulos.png


Event Center of Learning.png


Event Gemistos Plethon.png

Event Gemistos Plethon2.png

Byzantium also has some alt-historical events, one of the few exceptions we make in the game, to include some plausible content in case that Byzantium avoid its decadence…

… However you will have to find it by playing the game when we release it, as that’s all for today! As today is Friday, this will be the schedule for next week:
  • Monday -> Tinto Maps Feedback about the Steppes
  • Tuesday -> Tinto Flavour about the Golden Horde
  • Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about Islam
  • Thursday -> Fourth ‘Behind the Scenes’ video!
  • Friday -> Tinto Flavour about the Ottomans and the Rise of the Turks situation!
And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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The location is already called like that and the Area is Thrace but I assume that the problem with the province is that it can't change name dynamically so if you call it Constantinople in Turkish or Greek people are gonna get angry, as such the best option would be to use the English name for the province
Constantinople in English is fine, then. Its current name "Istanbul" only came into official being on the 28th March 1930.
 
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I'm really excited about this game, but I honestly feel that Byzantium will be a bit boring. We need a mechanic for the decline of all empires, not just irrational buffs to the Byzantine Empire like 'peasant corruption.' I'd like the Byzantine gameplay to feel like a decline. In a few years, the Cantacuzenus civil war is coming, which could be represented with a 'situation' mechanic involving Serbia, Bulgaria, Aydin, the Ottomans, and the merchant republics... even Savoy could be involved through Regent Anna of Savoy! Also during this interregnum, a strange, anti-elitist, almost proto-socialist state forms: the famous Zealots of Thessaloniki. This state should exist during the war, and if they win, it would make for interesting gameplay. After this war, Byzantium is left with only a bit of Thrace and Morea; the Serbian Empire forms, and then boom! the Gallipoli earthquake hits, and the Ottomans arrive in Thrace. This would make the game very fun to play, putting you in the same situation as EU4, but with only historical events and triggers, without necessarily making it difficult to play Byzantium solely through buffs.

It also seems important to rethink the Ecumenical Patriarchate with a country based on buildings, a vassal of the emperor. The Patriarch should be represented... even in the war against the Cantacuzenus, the Patriarch was regent.

It's also important to create another 'situation' regarding the merchant republics. Byzantium no longer had a fleet and was totally dependent on these republics at this time, which competed for hegemony in the Aegean and trade in Constantinople with many advantages. The idea is to make the game fun; Byzantium is one of the most played (if not the most played) tags by veteran players.
 
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Constantinople in English is fine, then. Its current name "Istanbul" only came into official being on the 28th March 1930.
You can easily make the argument that while Constantinople was 'The Name' of the city, the locals just called it The City, which is where Istanbul comes from. It just depends on who you ask.
 
You can easily make the argument that while Constantinople was 'The Name' of the city, the locals just called it The City, which is where Istanbul comes from. It just depends on who you ask.
The Greeks also called it "The City", and I don't think we want to name the area "The City" in English.
 
Reform%20Theme%20System.png


I feel as though the Thematic system should bring one's nation towards centralisation. It was a highly bureaucratic and efficient system with its roots in Roman administration. It's the furthest thing from a decentralised policy.
I mean tbf the Theme system description makes no sense in 1337. It was purely a provincial tax unit under the Palaiologians.

Honestly a lot of these descriptions are some Wikipedia Byyzieboos first step into Byzantium level accurate and don’t apply in 1337 but I get why they do it.


I’m wondering why the devs chose to lean more into offense in the last few hundred years. Were the Eastern Romans actually on the offensive after 1204, or mostly on the defensive? Can anyone shed some light on this?
They were on the offensive in 1337, the very next year they full annex Epirus which should be independent and not a vassal. They were mostly on the offensive after 1204 till the reign of Andronikos II. Andronikos III is the last time Byzantium actively expanded on its own merit and its last time as a viable state that could prosper.
This is the starting diplomatic situation:
View attachment 1309486

There's an event that gives a Casus Belli to recover Achaea, and that's it; the rest is mechanic-driven.
Late to this thread so apologies but I’m confused on the logic with the claims and once again why is Epirus a vassal?

You’d think the claims would at least call back to their peak 1280 Palaiologian borders. And include Amastris since it was debatably still owned by Byzantium in 1337 not Genoa.
image0.jpeg

Or using Treadgold’s older simpler map
1748974322280.jpeg


Epirus should be independent and the first historical target of Palaiologian Byzantium in 1337.

Calling back to the points I made here

And does the Byzantine Trebizond alliance really make any sense when neither gave military aid to the other by this point? Trebizond recognized the Emperors in Constantinople as their sovereigns and the authority of the ecumenical patriarch over them but this was purely nominal with no real Palaiologian influence to be found. Michael Palaiologos had directly intervened in the prior century but that control is long gone by this point.

On the other hand Byzantium should be allied with the Turkish state of Aydin which gave Andronikos the 2000 soldiers he used to defeat the migrating Albanians who as other posters have said should have a higher pop in 1337.
I hope you make Trebizond a Empire(tier 4), the Byzantines even recognized them as such
Nah Byzantium recognized them as subordinate Despots at this point. The rulers of Trebizond continued to style themselves as Basileus but only used Despot in trips to Constantinople. Lol Muslim sources go as low as to call them a Greek Emriate.
 
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They were on the offensive in 1337, the very next year they full annex Epirus which should be independent and not a vassal. They were mostly on the offensive after 1204 till the reign of Andronikos II. Andronikos III is the last time Byzantium actively expanded on its own merit and its last time as a viable state that could prosper
Thank you for sparing your time.
 
This looks all pretty good. Makes me really look forward to play as Eastern Rome and reconquer lost territories. Just a few things I would like to see added, some were already mentioned:
- Eastern Rome should have claims/cores wherever there are Greek pops in Anatolia in order to liberate them
- It should be easy to accept friendly people who were historical part of the empire and part of the nobility but who are not Hellenic like Armenians and Assyrians

For fun ;) let there be an event which reintroduces Greek Fire for an exorbitant amount of gold in case Eastern Rome becomes stronger again.
 
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Paradox uses the modern English exonyms for titles. This should hopefully make sense for most people, it allows for consistent naming and more importantly the game is aimed towards an audience speaking modern English. In most cases the modern exonym aligns with the "correct English translation" as you phrase it but there are several where it doesn't, such as Germany, Hungary, Finland, Persia, China, Japan etcetera.

And yes, that includes the state centered in Constantinople at the start of EU5 which is widely recognized in Modern English as "The Byzantine Empire". If you want this to change then I recommend you becoming a famous historian and work towards changing the historiographical consensus instead of demanding Paradox to change their naming principle in this one case.

It is fascinating to me how it is never enough for the byzantine fans. Paradox goes out of their way to try and satisfy that group by giving them a unique game option only available for the Byz tag (which as noted is far from the only tag where the modern exonym differs from what they called themselves), but now the *default* naming has to be the correct one as well! Meanwhile CK3 had an entire DLC called "Legacy of Persia" but I didn't see one single person lamenting over how that name didn't "give proper respect" to the people living there at the time.

e; Also can we not act insulted on the behalf of people who have been dead for 500 years? I sincerely doubt the Bithynian peasant toiling on his meagre farm in 1337 would care what a video game in 2025 calls the entity ruling over him.
Except 'The Byzantine Empire' wasnt coined by a famous historian, its like a German calling the United Kingdom 'The London Empire' or 'The Wessex Empire'. The Byzantine Empire was coined by various italian historians during the Renaissance specifically as a way to try to delegitimize the Romans claim to being 'The Roman Empire'. Both because they were the wrong kind of Christian, and also because of the various animosities between the Romans and the rest of Europe (4th Crusade).

I mean, if this is the case why call Yuan 'yuan'? Why not just call it Cathay and be done with it? Or just 'China'. or 'The Chinese Empire'.
 
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