Tinto Talks #66 - 4th of June 2025

[Sizvahstar]

I think in the Islam dd they show max wives is 4. So polygamy only, which makes me wonder if polyandry Is represented in the few places it does irl.

Hopefully we can change a Law and have several Chad Lads courting our Killer Queens

 

[matfer13]

If you don't plan on splitting the Shia religion can you at least brighten their map colour and darken the colour of Ibadism please? They are too similar right now

 

[stryder593]

I'm curious about how Pilgrimages, if they were deemed a relevant mechanic for Islam, were not also deemed relevant enough to include for Christianity. Are there any particular reasons for this?

I'd imagine because Western Kings stopped participating in distant Pilgrimages by the end of the 13th Century. It was far more common practice during the Crusading time period when Christianity held the Holy land.

 

[Atromb]

that barely anyone of the shiites here(well, whatever remains of them nowadays anyways)

What do you mean? I thought most iranians were shia.

 

[McEwanMaster]

I'd imagine because Western Kings stopped participating in distant Pilgrimages by the end of the 13th Century. It was far more common practice during the Crusading time period when Christianity held the Holy land.

Fair thought! Do you have data on its commonality, or know where data could be found?

 

[Emir7]

Aha ok yeah ik that about alawites.

Tbh even though khomeini and khamenei officially did that barely anyone of the shiites here(well, whatever remains of them nowadays anyways)recognizes them as shia, even the basij-irgc and adjacent shias who pretend to do drop the pretense behind the camera and call them "those confused syrian shia lookalikes"

please don't mess things up! the majority religion has nothing to do with political characters! and yes maybe nowadays the count of followers of religions has been decreased considerably but that doesn't mean no one believe to those religions, by the way this is a game related to so somehow 8 centuries ago! so the criteria are based on condition of that era!

 

[matfer13]

This should be renamed to "promotion from tribesmen to peasants"

 

[Clangus]

Release date?

 

[Abu Ahmar]

So how does this bonus makes sense when trading with non muslims

You're not trading with non-Muslims. That's not how long-distance trading works. You're trading with local Muslims, who are themselves trading with local non-Muslims. If you've packed a ship to the gills with incense in Yemen you're not selling your goods to some random Hindu or Buddhist you find off the street when you make port in India or Southeast Asia, you're selling your goods to a local Muslim merchant who operates within the same legal framework as you. That way if you have a dispute with him you can go to a local Muslim judge who will rule on your case according to a legal system that both of you recognize and are familiar with. This is why it makes sense for Sunni to have trading bonuses: this trans-national legal system allowed Sunnis to dominate the major long-distance trading routes (Indian Ocean, Silk Road, Trans-Saharan) at game start, and that fact is the main reason the Portuguese and Spanish are so eager to discover an alternative route to India.

How does it make sense for Shias that don't live in mountainous regions ? Can you quote an historian that says that people who live in mountains are systematically hardened warriors ? Isn't it a bit problematic to portray Sunnism as the "trading religion" and shia as the "warrior religion" without any academic consensus backing this claim ?

What Shias that don't live in mountainous regions? I guess there are Shia populations in southern Iraq and eastern Arabia at game start, though frankly I'm not sure southern Iraq was actually Shia at the time (I believe it was actually converted later by the Safavids, as was the case with much of central and southwestern Iran). But everywhere else is mountains: Zaydis in northern Yemen, Twelvers and Alawis in the Levantine coastal mountains, Twelvers and Alevis in eastern Anatolia, Twelvers and Zaydis in Azerbaijan and Tabarestan, Ismailis in Kashmir and the Pamirs. This stands to reason: Shiism was historically suppressed by Sunni rulers, so the only places it hung on tended to be mountainous regions outside of the reach of central authority, where it also served to give an outlet to the rebellious impulses of the local tribesmen.

You're not going to find an "academic consensus" behind any of the religion bonuses that Paradox adds to these games for flavor. That would be insane. But during the time period in question were Sunnis broadly speaking better at trade than other religions? Yes. Were Shias known for producing unusually zealous warriors? Yes. The most prominent Shia polity of the era, the Safavids, are a Shia religious order comprised of rebellious mountain tribesmen who conquer all of Persia on the strength of their uncanny religious zeal.

 

[Oglesby]

It is correct technically, because it lowers Piety if it's positive (in Legalism) and increases it if it's negative (in Mysticism). It's not very intuitive, though

@Oglesby what do you disagree with here? That's literally the case lol, it is literally explained in the post

Because by your own description you are proving it only partially correct. It decreases if currently positive, and increases it if negative. It would be more correct to say "move the value 40 towards the center." as was indicated in the paragraph leading into the image.

And you cannot now try the double negative as that was not the evidence that you used to prove that it was 'technically correct'.

 

[ArVass]

Because by your own description you are proving it only partially correct. It decreases if currently positive, and increases it if negative. It would be more correct to say "move the value 40 towards the center." as was indicated in the paragraph leading into the image.

And you cannot now try the double negative as that was not the evidence that you used to prove that it was 'technically correct'.

I literally said it was an unintuitive system...? Are you dense or pedantic?

Also, you just repeated what I said with slightly different words and posed it like I was wrong about understanding how this system works. Not sure what your problem is

 

[Oglesby]

I am not advocating for the ability.

When you exchange piety for manpower, where does the manpower come from? Is it sourced from your pops or do they appear out of thin air?

manpower isn't sourced from pops. Regular units damage and attrition is reflected in Pops

So filling the manpower pool, no pops are affected.
Creating regular units and maintaining, no pops are affected. (assumption from what we have seen in TTs)
Regular units take damage or attrition, pops die.
Regular units replenish to full strength consuming MP, no pops are affected.

Where the pops die when a regular unit takes damage or attrition is another discussion. It takes it first from pops 'working' at MP buildings and if there aren't any then it moves onto peasants.

 

[Oglesby]

I literally said it was an unintuitive system...? Are you dense or pedantic?

Neither. I was explaining why I disagreed with the 'technically correct'

Also, you just repeated what I said with slightly different words and posed it like I was wrong about understanding how this system works. Not sure what your problem is

I was using your word to show that "Gain Manpower in exchange for increasing our Piety" was not technically correct. In one case it is _increasing_ while in the other is it _decreasing_. So neither your statement or the correction that you were replying to were correct.

 

[uncle sia]

What do you mean? I thought most iranians were shia.

On paper yes but ignore that part otherwise this will turn into a discussion on real world politics

 

[uncle sia]

please don't mess things up! the majority religion has nothing to do with political characters! and yes maybe nowadays the count of followers of religions has been decreased considerably but that doesn't mean no one believe to those religions, by the way this is a game related to so somehow 8 centuries ago! so the criteria are based on condition of that era!

Wdym? The comment you are replying to did kind of went off rail but i was merely talking about the traditional position held by twelver shiites so i really have no idea what are you talking about

 

[ArVass]

Neither. I was explaining why I disagreed with the 'technically correct'

I was using your word to show that "Gain Manpower in exchange for increasing our Piety" was not technically correct. In one case it is _increasing_ while in the other is it _decreasing_. So neither your statement or the correction that you were replying to were correct.

Evidently, when it decreases piety (when it's in the positive), the UI says it's decreasing it, and when it increases piety (like literally on the screenshot presented), it says it is increasing it. That's not rocket science to deduce from the screenshot, lol.

 

[Emir7]

Wdym? The comment you are replying to did kind of went off rail but i was merely talking about the traditional position held by twelver shiites so i really have no idea what are you talking about

yeah, it was a little off topic, it just seemed to me you are relating shia with those characters. but if you say that's what you were describing, then it was just a misunderstanding.

 

[Sizvahstar]

I am not advocating for the ability.

manpower isn't sourced from pops. Regular units damage and attrition is reflected in Pops

So filling the manpower pool, no pops are affected.
Creating regular units and maintaining, no pops are affected. (assumption from what we have seen in TTs)
Regular units take damage or attrition, pops die.
Regular units replenish to full strength consuming MP, no pops are affected.

Where the pops die when a regular unit takes damage or attrition is another discussion. It takes it first from pops 'working' at MP buildings and if there aren't any then it moves onto peasants.

If true, that makes building a giant army that has more men than your nation has Pops possible (yet unlikely).
I thought Pops were "taken" from Locations upon recruitment, but that must mean Soldiers are only used in Buildings then...?

 

[Oglesby]

Evidently, when it decreases piety (when it's in the positive), the UI says it's decreasing it, and when it increases piety (like literally on the screenshot presented), it says it is increasing it. That's not rocket science to deduce from the screenshot, lol.

There is nothing in the screen shot to indicate what the is current level of Piety other than it is somewhere between -50 and 50 (and if we go by there verbiage inclusive.) Again you cannot go by the lose -40, because that is a presentation error for every 'lose x' usage if you look at other tooltips (which I have been asking them to correct)

There is no indication that the verbiage of that first line will change. While it is not rocket science that doesn't mean we should just guess what it will do and indicate it as fact.

So again, still not 'technically correct'

 

[Nikicaga]

We'd like to potentially have the Madhhab and Aqidah schools separated in different categories, because you may notice that we're already covering both types in detail. But that requires some non-trivial code work to make it work as it should, which is why I'm saying potentially.

Regarding orders, we don't really have Catholic religious orders as BBCs, just some Military Orders (Iberian). If, some time in the future, we add religious orders, which is an interesting suggestion, we might think about it. We also had an initial draft of having the Schools as IOs, like with the Hindu branches, but that wasn't really working as we wanted from a design standpoint, so we changed to the current design.

I'm not sure how fun they would be as playable countries, but religious orders, especially Catholic ones, would make for excellent BBCs. Many (notably Franciscans, Jesuits, Dominicans, Benedictines, Carmelites, Augustinians, Paulianes, Capuchins) operated vast networks of churches, monasteries, hospitals and other buildings which often greatly impacted the local economy, and were sometimes large landowners as well

Setting them up, helping them grow and using them to influence other countries can be a huge part of Papal State/Curia Controller gameplay, and inviting them or banishing them for general Catholic/Protestant states. Having them do some of the work of conversion and reducing plague impact for you if you're a pious Catholic state would be pretty cool