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Tinto Flavour #26 - 10th June 2025 - Korea and Manchuria

Hello and welcome to another issue of our Tinto Flavour. Today we will take a look at the lands of Korea and Manchuria. Let’s start first with Korea, or at this point in time, the Kingdom of Goryeo:

After the national unification achieved by the Goryeo dynasty, the glorious formation of the eponym Kingdom of Goryeo brought a golden period of prosperity and unprecedented unity to its people.

Even after bending to Emperor Borjigin Kublai, Goryeo continues to be an important power, both because of its highly educated population and its powerful navy.

Now the winds of change are blowing, as the corruption of the Buddhist ideals and the revolutionizing ideas of Neo-Confucianism are changing minds all over the country. Will Goryeo transform into the strongest soldier in Yuán's army, or will it break free from those shackles and dictate its future?
Click to expand...

Korea starting panel.png

It starts with some reforms and privileges:
Korean Estates.png

Of which this unique one:
Son in Law.png

It also has some unique laws:
Goryeon Code.png

Unique advances:
Hangul.png

Korean Artisanry.png

Fortresses of Goguryeo.png

Metal Movable Type.png

Unique buildings:
Korean Barracks.png
Korean Gunnery.png

​
And unique units:
Hwacha.png

Turtle Ship.png

​
There are some events related to the relationship between Korea and China:
The Mongol Rule.png

The Mongol Rule Option A.png

The Mongol Rule Option B.png

​
And of course also an event for the rise of Joseon:
Rise of Joseon.png

​
We could choose to condemn them to a life of rebellion, or to accept the rise of a new dynasty, giving a new name and flag:
Joseon.png

​
And of course there are many other interesting historical events:
Horse Event.png

​
Let us move now to Manchuria and the Jurchen tribes.

The Jurchen people inhabit Manchuria and are divided in diverse groups, including the Jianzhou, Haixi, and Wild Jurchens, that have different lifestyles —some are hunter-gatherers, other pastoralists, but mostly sedentary agriculturists.

Chinese officials have divided the Jurchen based on proximity and characteristics. Jianzhou Jurchens, near Mudan River, have adopted Chinese habits; Haixi Jurchens have nomadic and sedentary tribes along the Haixi River; and Yeren or Wild Jurchens, in sparsely populated north Manchuria, rely on hunting and agriculture.

Influenced by neighboring dynasties, the Jurchen have chiefs paying tribute to hold nominal posts as commanders of border guards.
Click to expand...

Traditionally, Jurchen have been divided into three types, and this is represented with three different government reforms:
Jianzhou Jurchen.png

Haixi Jurchen.png

Yeren Jurchen.png

​
They have some advances available to all of them:
Mounted People.png

Jurchen Barracks.png

Jurchen Honor.png

Unite the Tribes.png

Manchu Script.png

​
Another mechanic available to them is the a special type of International Organization called Jurchen Confederation, representing a somewhat banding together of different tribes responding to a single authority on certain matters while still maintaining total autonomy in most. At start, there are three Jurchen Confederations present: the Jianzhou, Hūlun, and Changbaishan.
Jianzhou Federation.png

Hulun Federation.png

Changbaishan Federation.png

​
Jurchen Confederations have laws, with some of them centered around the structures and operations of the confederation itself on an internal level, and also others that deal with how the confederation interacts with the outside world.
Administration Law.png

Unification Law.png

Diplomacy Law.png

There are more laws in the confederations, not just these three.​

As one would expect, unifying all the Jurchen tribes will lead to the possibility of forming a new identity:
Manchu Formable.png

​
When formed, it will trigger the following event, with an option to choose the name for the country:
Later Jin Event.png

​
And of course, when managing to conquer China you’ll get another event for the option of proclaiming a new dynasty:
Qing Event.png

Qing.png

And that is all for today, although there is much more in the game for you to discover. We'll be back tomorrow talking about the mechanics of Shintō and the Shogunate, see you then.

And remember to Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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xinche said:
Actually, China does not exist—it is entirely our fabrication. Just as you have never been to China, how can you be certain it truly exists?
Click to expand...
this, its basically my whole opinion of the so named history, 我压根不相信昨天“发生”了什么，我真的很难相信某些人说历史上发生了什么。我还记得我朝在几年前发了几百篇英语论文证明新冠病毒起源于美国。
 
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Roger Corominas said:
Fixed, changed the adjective of "Manchu" to be just "Manchu".
Click to expand...
I agreed that the adjective could be better. However, the main point is that Manchu is unrelated to any placename.

According to Aisin Gioro Ulhicun, Manchu is not a geographical name but an adjective that represents "brave." As we can see, Daichin Gurun (Da Qing; Great Qing) expressed the same meaning. In the Manchu language, the only equivalent term to Manchuria is "Mukden Tala". You can't find any Manchu dictionary that agrees that "Manchu" has a geographical meaning.
 

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When Joseon was founded, its population was about 5.5 million. Is there a system in the game that allows Goryeo's population to explode and catch up with Joseon's?
 
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Freshplayer said:
I agreed that the adjective could be better. However, the main point is that Manchu is unrelated to any placename.

According to Aisin Gioro Ulhicun, Manchu is not a geographical name but an adjective that represents "brave." As we can see, Daichin Gurun (Da Qing; Great Qing) expressed the same meaning. In the Manchu language, the only equivalent term to Manchuria is "Mukden Tala". You can't find any Manchu dictionary that agrees that "Manchu" has a geographical meaning.
Click to expand...
The trend toward treating “Manchuria” as a place name can be traced back to the various masterpieces of Qianlong Khan Hongli—and indeed was the product of a conflict between two of Hongli’s own impulses.


In 1768, after Hongli read through the Illustrated Compendium of the Dynastic Chronicles 歷代通鑑輯覽 and annotated it, he promulgated the Imperial Comment on the Illustrated Compendium of the Dynastic Chronicles, to All Ministers 御批歷代通鑒輯覽總裁諸臣欽奉上諭, with Respectful Imperial Edict, stating:


“The origin of the Jin arose in the east, sharing the same territory as our current Manchu land. Since Wanyan belonged to the Jin clan, and to this day is registered under our banner, the present Fuca clan is in fact a phonetic transformation of Jin Pucha, which is clear proof.”
Click to expand...


It can be seen that in the thirty-third year of Qianlong (1768), Hongli acknowledged the usage of “Manchu” as a place name.


However, just nine years later, when Hongli ordered the compilation of the Study on the Origins and Development of Manchuria 滿洲源流考, he suddenly made a major pivot:


Note: “Manchu was originally the name of a tribe… It is said that the teacher of Shakyamuni, Lu Zhena Tathagata, and the great saint Manjushri was Lu Zhena’s original teacher; ‘Shuzhu’ in pronunciation is identical, with ‘Shishi’ being one sound. At that time the grand title arose in designation, truly originating from these. Today in Chinese characters written as Manzhou, since the meaning of the character ‘zhou’ is close to place names, it was borrowed and used accordingly, and thus has been handed down; in reality it is the name of a tribe, not a place name, which can be clearly established in chapter after chapter.”
Click to expand...

So, with these two versions of Hongli in conflict, who is correct?


A review of the Veritable Records of the Qing 清實錄 shows that the combination of “Manchu” with the term “land” was indeed first coined in Hongli’s era:


Qianlong 5th Year, 4th Month, 24th Day
Shuhede again received an imperial edict: “Shengjing is the original land of the Manchu.…” After detailed deliberation and memorials, it was reported that the regions of Fengtian and Shenyang are the root lands of the Manchu.
Click to expand...

This expression calls Shengjing the “original land of the Manchu,” naturally not yet regarding Shengjing as a geographical component of “Manchuria,” but as the place from which the group originated. In records from the thirtieth and fortieth years of Qianlong, one can see references considering “Qing language” and “Qing books” as the “roots of the Manchu.” Taken together, it can be said that a geographical conception of Manchuria had already begun to develop.


By the forty-second year of Qianlong, we finally see the first appearance of “the Three Eastern Provinces” as the “Manchu aggregate”:


Day Yimao
Imperial Edict: “The Three Eastern Provinces are the fundamental lands of the Manchu. All should steadfastly preserve the Manchu’s pure old customs, and strive to counter the gradually contaminating Han customs. Recently, observing the customs in Jilin, which are already like those in Shengjing, they are increasingly deteriorating, and the number of wanderers is daily increasing, causing the loss of the Manchu’s old customs.”
Click to expand...

Here, Hongli emphasized regarding the Three Eastern Provinces as the sacred lands upon which Manchu roots rely. From Hongli onward, the awareness equating the Three Eastern Provinces with Manchuria frequently appeared in the emperors’ edicts.


Among the literati outside the court, especially in the outstanding late-Qing Han geographer Wei Yuan’s Illustrated Treatise on the Maritime Kingdoms 海國圖志 (finalized in 1852 in a hundred-volume edition), passages appear that treat Manchuria as a place name:


“By the direct route reaching the Amur River, one happened upon Manchu troops, engaged in battle. After Russia was defeated and withdrew to the mountains (Amur River, i.e., Heilongjiang; Lake Ma’ga, i.e., Hulun Lake; ‘mountains,’ that is, the Outer Hinggan Range, in the Treatise on Territorial Boundaries called Eastern Jin Mountain), thus the borderland along the river still belongs to Manchuria. Thereupon this became the boundary, and Russia from then on firmly held the frontier, cultivating the land it had acquired, which compared to the vast territories during the reigns of Alexander, King Shar, was by no means smaller.”
Click to expand...

Although Wei Yuan’s expression is somewhat ambiguous, it is very clear that here Manchuria is used in a geographical sense; unless one forcibly interprets Manchuria as the Daiqing Gūrūn lodge. In other passages in the book, similar expressions occur:


“Russia in the North Ocean’s new outskirts is in the hinterland of Asia, adjacent to the lands of Mongolia and Manchuria.”
“The Russian state grew large from the time of Ming. Its land extends adjacent to the northwest frontiers of Manchuria, Mongolia, and Xinjiang, connected like a belt; its capital is on the Atlantic, while its eastern border abutting Mongolia and the Heilongjiang is merely its frontier.”
Click to expand...

It can be said that before the mid-19th century, although Manchuria as a formal geographical term was not yet officially in use, such a vague consciousness did exist, and eventually crystallized in the mid-19th century.
 
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Mangi Qahan said:
The trend toward treating “Manchuria” as a place name can be traced back to the various masterpieces of Qianlong Khan Hongli—and indeed was the product of a conflict between two of Hongli’s own impulses.


In 1768, after Hongli read through the Illustrated Compendium of the Dynastic Chronicles 歷代通鑑輯覽 and annotated it, he promulgated the Imperial Comment on the Illustrated Compendium of the Dynastic Chronicles, to All Ministers 御批歷代通鑒輯覽總裁諸臣欽奉上諭, with Respectful Imperial Edict, stating:





It can be seen that in the thirty-third year of Qianlong (1768), Hongli acknowledged the usage of “Manchu” as a place name.


However, just nine years later, when Hongli ordered the compilation of the Study on the Origins and Development of Manchuria 滿洲源流考, he suddenly made a major pivot:




So, with these two versions of Hongli in conflict, who is correct?


A review of the Veritable Records of the Qing 清實錄 shows that the combination of “Manchu” with the term “land” was indeed first coined in Hongli’s era:




This expression calls Shengjing the “original land of the Manchu,” naturally not yet regarding Shengjing as a geographical component of “Manchuria,” but as the place from which the group originated. In records from the thirtieth and fortieth years of Qianlong, one can see references considering “Qing language” and “Qing books” as the “roots of the Manchu.” Taken together, it can be said that a geographical conception of Manchuria had already begun to develop.


By the forty-second year of Qianlong, we finally see the first appearance of “the Three Eastern Provinces” as the “Manchu aggregate”:




Here, Hongli emphasized regarding the Three Eastern Provinces as the sacred lands upon which Manchu roots rely. From Hongli onward, the awareness equating the Three Eastern Provinces with Manchuria frequently appeared in the emperors’ edicts.


Among the literati outside the court, especially in the outstanding late-Qing Han geographer Wei Yuan’s Illustrated Treatise on the Maritime Kingdoms 海國圖志 (finalized in 1852 in a hundred-volume edition), passages appear that treat Manchuria as a place name:




Although Wei Yuan’s expression is somewhat ambiguous, it is very clear that here Manchuria is used in a geographical sense; unless one forcibly interprets Manchuria as the Daiqing Gūrūn lodge. In other passages in the book, similar expressions occur:




It can be said that before the mid-19th century, although Manchuria as a formal geographical term was not yet officially in use, such a vague consciousness did exist, and eventually crystallized in the mid-19th century.
Click to expand...
Your argument is kinda unrelated. Well, it did not represent any place from the beginning.
 
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EasterEgg3323 said:
Perhaps Paradox could give Korea a unique flavor with the Stellaris cloning technology. We would have unlimited manpower ;^)
Click to expand...
Other than that, I have my doubts it'll catch up to 5 million, especially after one Black Death that would halve the already currently small 2 million.
 
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1000218237.png
Furthermore, the king's name is still strange. Why is the king's posthumous name used as his given name? Before becoming king, Chung-suk Wang's given name was Do 도燾, and after becoming King, it was Ma-n 만 卍. In other words, Chung-suk Wang's name is Wang Ma-n 왕만 王卍.
 
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The designation 'King Wang Chungsuck' is incorrect. 'Chungsuck (忠肅)' is a posthumous name (shi-ho) that was bestowed by the Yuan Dynasty after King Chungsuk's death. His actual name was 'Man (卍)'. It would be correct to refer to him as 'King Wang-Man', just as we refer to Joseon's founder Yi Seong-gye as 'King Yi Seong-gye'. King Chungsuk should properly be called 'King Wang Man'. While this may seem like a minor issue, it could be a significant problem for local game players.
 
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Roger Corominas said:
Hello and welcome to another issue of our Tinto Flavour. Today we will take a look at the lands of Korea and Manchuria. Let’s start first with Korea, or at this point in time, the Kingdom of Goryeo:




It starts with some reforms and privileges:

Of which this unique one:

It also has some unique laws:

Unique advances:

Unique buildings:
And unique units:
There are some events related to the relationship between Korea and China:
And of course also an event for the rise of Joseon:
We could choose to condemn them to a life of rebellion, or to accept the rise of a new dynasty, giving a new name and flag:
And of course there are many other interesting historical events:
Let us move now to Manchuria and the Jurchen tribes.



Traditionally, Jurchen have been divided into three types, and this is represented with three different government reforms:
They have some advances available to all of them:
Another mechanic available to them is the a special type of International Organization called Jurchen Confederation, representing a somewhat banding together of different tribes responding to a single authority on certain matters while still maintaining total autonomy in most. At start, there are three Jurchen Confederations present: the Jianzhou, Hūlun, and Changbaishan.
Jurchen Confederations have laws, with some of them centered around the structures and operations of the confederation itself on an internal level, and also others that deal with how the confederation interacts with the outside world.
View attachment 1315123
View attachment 1315124
View attachment 1315125
There are more laws in the confederations, not just these three.​

As one would expect, unifying all the Jurchen tribes will lead to the possibility of forming a new identity:
When formed, it will trigger the following event, with an option to choose the name for the country:
And of course, when managing to conquer China you’ll get another event for the option of proclaiming a new dynasty:

And that is all for today, although there is much more in the game for you to discover. We'll be back tomorrow talking about the mechanics of Shintō and the Shogunate, see you then.

And remember to Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
Click to expand...
What’s the Tungusic Shamanism? Are they following Nishan’s teaching?
 
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dhfusd said:
When Joseon was founded, its population was about 5.5 million. Is there a system in the game that allows Goryeo's population to explode and catch up with Joseon's?
Click to expand...
EasterEgg3323 said:
Perhaps Paradox could give Korea a unique flavor with the Stellaris cloning technology. We would have unlimited manpower ;^)
Click to expand...
Johan said:
Sweden also has access to this unique cabinet action that can be done in any province in Norrland or Finland that has a total population of less than 10,000 people. This is to simulate the insane population growth that Finland had during the 14th and 15th century, which was the highest in the world at that time.

View attachment 1302622
Click to expand...

johan said finland have super technology for population growth.
so win the second finno-korean hyperwar and get that technology and achievement.
 
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In the case of becoming Later Jin, and then conquering china and proclaiming a new dynasty, we will still be Later Jin or Great Jin instead of Qing?
 
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Wang(王) is family name of koryeo dynasty and also posthumous suffix title(忠O王) after mongol's invade, but it does not mean ChungSuk is his name. King-Chungsuk(忠Chung肅Suk王Wang) is named after his dead. In europe, many kings, princes, dukes were named like the lionheart, the august, the saint and it followed his life/achievement/failure. In china/korea, kings/emperors were named after dead.
 
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