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Why does it matter if certain tags exist early or not?
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Buddy I have no idea how you can disagree with a geniune question. I am asking why this matters. Disagreeing with me is not providing me with an answer.
EDIT:
Buddy I have no idea how you can disagree with a geniune question. I am asking why this matters. Disagreeing with me is not providing me with an answer.
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The only thing this does is makes sure the AI will never form any tags
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It’s a good point. Renaming your country to Prussia just because some newly conquered lands had prussians once makes little sense, don’t you think? The fact that it would be a kingdom is even more bonkers (but in the spirit of the game)
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why is speedrunning to form a tag a bad thing? the main problem is that expanding is too easy
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Kings rolled with a f+ck ton of titles. Whatever rolled best in people's tongue and mind became the name. The Ottomans called themselves develt-i aliyye. In European soruces it was just the "turkish Empire" or "Turkey" or "Turkeyland" aka "land of the turks". So you had maps showing whatever the map maker felt like.
Realistically speaking (in this case) you would call yourself "king of Brandenburg and Prussia" and realistically speaking contemporary people would just call you Brandenburg or Prussia. So I dont see the issue tbh.
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The "problem" is that Brandenburg can conquer the land as quickly as they can, not that they can rebrand themselves as Prussia when they've done it.
Further, locking formables behind SVs would just be limiting. What if I want to play a Quantity-Naval Prussia, because obviously blue os the colour of the sea (or you know, their significant Baltic coastline)? Do I need to go towards Land and Quality only to then tweak it back? No, I don't like this proposal.
Further, locking formables behind SVs would just be limiting. What if I want to play a Quantity-Naval Prussia, because obviously blue os the colour of the sea (or you know, their significant Baltic coastline)? Do I need to go towards Land and Quality only to then tweak it back? No, I don't like this proposal.
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That's exactly what Brandenburg did historically. After getting control of East Prussia (the province was called this) they later used this to set up a Kingdom title, which was not allowed for their pre-existing land in the HRE. It was a slightly dubious play for getting a higher standing, but it was allowed due to heavy diplomatic maneuvering.
I don't see why it should be based on social values, because the creation of the title had nothing to do with that. Instead, maybe some of the special content should be restricted. So for instance getting special Prussian military reforms should depend on being far towards quality or something like that.
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Societal value conditions might make flavor sense for a few unique formables, but I don't see the point of this as artificial balance instead of just flavor. The problem with a formable forming too early isn't that the name appears on the map too early but that the player (or AI) has achieved unification too early, regardless of what the name on the map is.
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There are bespoke (such as through events) ways of forming Prussia, and there are simple ways of forming Prussia (like conquest). If you aren't forming the tag historically then why should you need to go jump through hoops to single set of societal values? Prussia was formed in a very specific set of circumstances and those societal values aren't applicable to when the state was first created. Using societal values to gate tags feels like a terrible compromise that doesn't really slow down tag formation nor does it make it make more sense for a country to form a tag like Prussia.
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I know that’s what they did, but way later and through inheritance not conquering. I also think the value suggestion is not good.
Okay now that I’m thinking about it, it could be through conquest as well. Now I want all hre princes to be able to rename themselves to Kingdom of xxx if they acquire external lands as well.
It doesnt matter if you are a kingdom by conquering stuff inside or outside of the HRE. The HRE had kingdoms that were mostly/fully inside of the HRE as well. E.g. kingdom of Italy.
There were some title dispute shenanigans as in for some reason the HRE leader was butthurt about giving the title to anyone else, but I dont see a single good reason why a nation that owns (let's say) 1/4 of the HRE cant label itself kingdom.
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Societal values might make sense for some of the benefits you get from forming a tag, you wouldn't get Prussian space marines if you were going quantity for example. But restricting clicking the button is super lame, having people want to speedrun the game is a good thing if it doesn't hurt the play experience, and nothing drains the fun out of optimizing a country formation more than waiting for a bar to tick up or a date to pass.
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Any sort of kingdom inside the hre other than Bohemia was reserved for the roman emperor/king. If one ever comes to control 1/4 of the lands in the hre you will most likely be emperor regardless. See: the Habsburgs.
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The 1/4 is an example. It is perfectly possible that 2-3 nations emerge controlling about 20-25% of the entire HRE, in which case I dont see why only one of them can be a kingdom.
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For the player it sounds nice and good, but for an AI it'll be a disaster and it'll never actually form the formables
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This is also just unconducive to people who want to play tags in a different way than the devs intend them to. It's the kind of railroading I really dislike about mission trees, please don't add these kinds of requirements to tag formations. This is just blobbing without the map colour change, it in no way solves the fundamental issue you want to fix
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Imperial law.
Kingdom rank in the HRE should require an outside territory (Prussia, Hungary, Burgundy...) to base the title in, or war with the Emperor to enforce your claim.
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As the one who made a whole thread about how flavour should be unlocked by societal values, I say this is a terrible idea.
Founding the "Kingdom in Prussia" has nothing to do with the internal values of the polity' population and everything to do with the the fact that the margrave of Brandenburg happened to acquire lands outside the HRE in a place that used to be called Prussia. Said margrave thought it would be a cool idea to have a king title and couldn't be named king of Brandenburg (as it was a part of the Empire) at the time, so he settled for the name "Prussia".
While we are at it, this could be a (more) general mechanic. Meaning if Austria loses the emperorship and happens to inherit Hungary, as historically, it could style itself from an old name as well, such as King in Pannonia (if they don't want to evoke that they are kings of the Magyars). Or it could be funny to have Baden become the King in Burgundy as well. You see the trend.
It boils down to a limitation about being named "king" of a constituant part of the HRE and the possibility to ask the Emperor to be named "king in" something outside the HRE. Maybe there could be a law allowing the naming of kings inside the HRE as well.
Ideally, tags should just be names. I understand that it's not like that in this game and that Prussia has some advantages. Still, restraining them by societal values doesn't seem to me to be the right way to approach it.
Internally, though, you could link Prussia's bonuses with societal values, so that they would unlock when the country' makeup aligns.
Founding the "Kingdom in Prussia" has nothing to do with the internal values of the polity' population and everything to do with the the fact that the margrave of Brandenburg happened to acquire lands outside the HRE in a place that used to be called Prussia. Said margrave thought it would be a cool idea to have a king title and couldn't be named king of Brandenburg (as it was a part of the Empire) at the time, so he settled for the name "Prussia".
While we are at it, this could be a (more) general mechanic. Meaning if Austria loses the emperorship and happens to inherit Hungary, as historically, it could style itself from an old name as well, such as King in Pannonia (if they don't want to evoke that they are kings of the Magyars). Or it could be funny to have Baden become the King in Burgundy as well. You see the trend.
It boils down to a limitation about being named "king" of a constituant part of the HRE and the possibility to ask the Emperor to be named "king in" something outside the HRE. Maybe there could be a law allowing the naming of kings inside the HRE as well.
Ideally, tags should just be names. I understand that it's not like that in this game and that Prussia has some advantages. Still, restraining them by societal values doesn't seem to me to be the right way to approach it.
Internally, though, you could link Prussia's bonuses with societal values, so that they would unlock when the country' makeup aligns.
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