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Tinto Flavour #27 - 13th of June 2025 - Japan, Nanbokucho, Sengoku

Hello and welcome once more to another edition of Tinto Flavour. Today we will continue the Japanese theme by taking a look at the flavor of Japan and the Japanese clans, as well as the situations of the Nanbokuchō and Sengoku Jidai.

After a long period of peace under the Kamakura Shogunate, the islands of Japan were plunged again into war during the Mongol invasions. That debilitated the authority of the Shōgun to the point that Yamato Go-Daigo Tennō was able to wrestle control of the country away from him. However, his intentions of restoring imperial rule were not to come to fruition, as his former ally Shōgun Ashikaga Takauji established a new Japanese Shogunate.

Now Shōgun Ashikaga Takauji rules over the country after Go-Daigo Tennō fled the capital and established himself in Yoshino. The struggle between the central government and the fleeing Emperor is far from over.

Japan.png

These are the estates of Japan:
Japan Estates.png

And it has this unique reform:
Shogunate Reform.png

While the other clans and the imperial courts have these other ones:
Clan Reform.png

Imperial Family.png

Japanese countries have some common advances, and some of the individual clans have also some unique ones. Some examples:
Bushido.png

Head Hunting.png

Codified Bushido.png


Some unique ones (try to guess which clan they are for):
Clans of Tosa.png

Izumi Sea.png

Unlikely Alliances.png

Uninspiring clan.png

Furinkazan.png

Let’s talk now about how the clans behave. Let me start by saying that our recommended country to play in Japan generally is the country of Japan itself, as the clans, being building-based countries, play quite a bit different than regular tags, and thus are rather suited to experienced players that want to try a different and more challenging game style.

That being said, let’s look at how they work. Being building-based countries, they are of course dependent on their buildings. Here is some of them:
Shoen.png

Yamashiro.png


The next ones are exclusive for the imperial court countries and the non-imperial clans, respectively:
Gosho.png

Yakata.png

And another important building that cannot be built manually but it will instead be built automatically when a clan is assigned to be Shugo of a province (see yesterday’s Tinto Talks for that mechanic):
Kokufu.png

As you can see, both their economy and their troops will depend directly on the buildings that they own, so their strategy is to expand their presence by building more of those buildings and also taking the ones owned by other clans in war.

Now that we mention war, it’s time to talk about the two civil war situations in the game. Let’s start with the Nanbokuchō Jidai, a situation that starts just at the beginning of the game. Initially, all countries all assigned to support either the northern or the southern court, according to their historical alliances, but when the situation starts, countries will get the following event:
Nanbokuchou start event.png

With this, the clans will be able to choose to switch loyalties, or even declare neutrality, although for obvious reasons neither the two courts nor the shogunate are able to change their allegiances. The whole country will thus be divided into sides:
Nanbokuchou panel.png

Nanbokuchou map.png

Even after the situation has started, countries can choose to change their loyalty, not only via the actions in the situation panel but also through events that will fire during the situation allowing for that. Besides that, there will also be other events firing with options of getting casus belli or even declaring wars, making it so that chaos is ensured.

One important thing to note is that as long as the Nanbokuchō Jidai situation is active, countries will not be able to declare war on others supporting the same side as them. If you want to attack another clan that is supporting the same side as you, you will have to do it after the situation is resolved (or choose to change your loyalty, of course).

To end the situation, one of the two courts must be forced to disappear, through a special peace treaty “Force Imperial Abdication”.

So, we just had a civil war, what about a second one? Whether the Nanbokuchō Jidai situation resolves successfully or not, an even bigger civil war will still be looming. The Sengoku Jidai situation can happen after 1400 if there is no Shōgun, or if the Shōgun is in a weak position (low legitimacy or stability, or with rebellion problems), or if there are more than 6 wars currently active among the clans. As such, a strong shogunate will be able to avoid falling into it if they manage to keep their children in check.

Once it starts, the stronger and bigger clans will automatically transform into landed Daimyō, with the rest receiving an event with the option to also become landed, at the cost of opinion with the shogunate.
Sengoku Event Start.png

Becoming landed will have many consequences. For once, all locations in the shogunate in which they have a presence with their buildings will become owned by them, and they will receive a new government reform replacing the “Japanese Clan” one:
Daimyo Reform.png

Even if a country does not choose to become landed with this event, they may have the option to do so in the future, both via further events that can fire during the situation, and also directly through the action “Proclaim Independence” in the situation panel:
Sengoku Panel.png

The actions available in the panel are slightly different for the Shōgun, giving extra tools to control the many clans, both the ones that have been already landed and those that are still as building-based countries:
Sengoku Shogun Actions.png


The objective of the Shōgun will thus be to curb the autonomy of the clans, while the objective of any clan would be to gain sufficient power to either become the Shōgun themselves or to destroy the shogunate entirely. The situation will end when there is only a single country in the shogunate (with the exception of allowing for the presence of a building-based emperor), or when the Shōgun has managed to reduce all other clans to just a single location building-based country.

As with the Nanbokuchō Jidai, there will be some events firing during the situation, giving the countries options to gain casus belli, declare wars, etc, and there are also some event chains of interaction between the Shōgun and the clans when the former uses the action to “Summon to Court”.

And that is all for today. With almost 150 countries in the Shogunate, there is much more to unpack in the game, but this is as far as we can show here.

As an extra treat, because many of you asked about it, here's an updated view of the terrain map for Japan, with an especial effect of cherry blossoms during spring:
Japan Terrain.png


Next week @Pavía will be back, so I'll leave you in his care (I still don't know what will be the schedule for next week, sorry).

And remember to Wishlist Europa Universalis V now!
 
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Have you considered making a separate estate for the court nobility? Would also be useful for any other countries that had separate court nobles and warrior nobles.
 
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There's currently no difference, but I'd definitely would like to add something special for the Southern Court eventually.
So first the conflict for papal independence from France doesn't lead to a French papacy if the French side wins, and now the conflict for imperial independence from the Shogun doesn't lead to an independent emperor if the anti-shogun side wins?

Can you please consider the fact that all your work in creating situations and assigning combatants for these conflicts all become pointless if the outcomes don't actually matter. Not to mention how it completely undermines the historical immersion. Imagine if the Thirty Years War always ended with the Peace of Westphalia no matter what the actual outcome of the conflict was.
 
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Nanbokuchou%20map.png

After looking at this more I now see that the Yellow in the Northern court supporters with the court being Red. The Green is the southern court with its supporters in blue.

I would change the colors to make it more obvious. I would have the court and its supporters have the same color but different intensity. If we were sticking with the same base colors it would be:
  • Southern court - Dark Red; Supporters - Red
  • Northern court - Dark Green; Supporters - Green
This make the 'this goes with that' more obvious. Instead of dark it could be light courts. Also I am not suggesting you have to stick with the red/green I just followed the current court colors. (Maybe have it tie back to the banners, so Red and White?)
 
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So first the conflict for papal independence from France doesn't lead to a French papacy if the French side wins, and now the conflict for imperial independence from the Shogun doesn't lead to an independent emperor if the anti-shogun side wins?

Can you please consider the fact that all your work in creating situations and assigning combatants for these conflicts all become pointless if the outcomes don't actually matter. Not to mention how it completely undermines the historical immersion. Imagine if the Thirty Years War always ended with the Peace of Westphalia no matter what the actual outcome of the conflict was.
Agreed. I understand there being a dearth of flavor for ahistorical outcomes at launch, but if the outcome to these events is straight up irrelevant that seems utterly perplexing. There's no reason to, as the French, invest in winning the western schism if the outcome is irrelevant, nor is there any particular reason to care who wins the Nanbokucho as the Ashikaga Shogunate, even though a southern court victory would logically be a game over, or at least see you reduced to the level of a clan. It's a baffeling decision I would've expected some token content for an ahistorical outcome, even if it's half baked and front loaded.
 
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Have you considered making a separate estate for the court nobility? Would also be useful for any other countries that had separate court nobles and warrior nobles.
At the very least, I hope they have Kuge as the dynamic name for the noble estate in the Imperial Courts.
 
The Warring Barons period looks really good, but it seems like the Odawara Hojo clan (NOT related to the Hojo clan that got overthrown just before start date) didn't make the cut. I don't expect this for release, but I'd strongly support their inclusion eventually. I hope my suggestion isn't too late for consideration...

The Hojos were one of the most powerful clans to rise during the Warring Barons period and were some of the period's earliest administrative innovators. These include martial "taxes" (conscription and aggressive troop registration), regular cadastral surveys, and taxation reform (empowering the villages over the warriors). Mary Elizabeth Berry credits these reforms for the Hojos' powerful position and for laying the groundwork for the later unifiers in Hideyoshi, while Michael P. Birt covers these reforms in great detail in "Samurai in Passage: The Transformation of the Sixteenth-Century Kanto."
Besides these reforms (which I assume all daimyo will have access to via advances), I would suggest some flavour regarding their concentric fortifications. David Spafford explains their unique defensive layouts in A Sense of Place: The Political Landscape in Late Medieval Japan. That book is also a treasure trove for the Kanto's history in general.
The Hojo lords, through these techniques, seized control of the Kanto very quickly and held onto it practically unmolested until 1590. They were a major force in Japanese politics and the game would feel emptier without them. Conrad Totman, in Tokugawa Ieyasu: Shogun, even claims that Japan was actually ruled as a triumvirate between Hideyoshi, Ieyasu, and Ujimasa (Hojo).
(My capstone was on the development of the Kanto prior to the Tokugawa Shogunate...)

This event would spawn the Hojos (originally the Ises) and give the player the option to switch to them.
Code:
TITLE: Shinkuro Ise Revolts!
TRIGGERS:
    This country:
        Is a landed daimyo
        Owns at least 20 locations (don't want to cripple a small daimyo; the Hojos spawned from the Imagawas)
    Any owned location:
        Is in Izu, Sagami, Musashi, Shimosa, or Kazusa provinces (prefer Izu)
        Has less control than 20
        (Tag this location)
    This event has not happened before
OPTION: They must be stopped!
    EFFECTS:
        Owner of tagged location:
            Lose 10 prestige
        ISE:
            Spawns as an ABC with a small army led by Shinkuro Ise in tagged location
            Declares war on owner of tagged location with independence CB
OPTION: Their rebellion is just!
    EFFECTS:
        Same as above, but player tag switches to ISE

This event would give the Hojos independence if they last long enough.
Code:
TITLE: The Consolidation of the Ise Clan
TRIGGERS:
    At least one year has passed since previous event
EFFECTS:
    Every location controlled by ISE:
        Owner:
            Gains a reconquest CB on ISE if not already at war with ISE
        Becomes owned by ISE
   ISE:
        Becomes a landed country
        Sets capital to Tagata location if possible, otherwise pick the highest development location

This decision would rename the Ises to the Hojos and also give them their namesake capital. The AI would always do this.
Code:
TITLE: Claim Hojo Heritage
TRIGGERS:
    Kamakura location:
        Is owned by ISE
    Ashigara location:
        Is owned by ISE
        Control is over 80
EFFECTS:
    ISE:
        Is renamed to Hojo Clan
        Ruling dynasty is renamed to Hojo
        Shinkuro Ise is renamed to Soun Hojo if he's still alive
        Sets capital to Ashigara location
    Ashigara location:
        Is renamed to Odawara
        Gains a fort

This advance would represent the Hojos' historically insular behaviour.
Code:
TITLE: Concentric Fortifications
MODIFIERS:
    Fort build speed -10%
    Hostile siege time +20% (maybe would be annoying)
    Hostile supply -10%
    Monthly drift towards defensive +0.01 (maybe not in an advance, though? not sure)
 
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It's probably too late to get an answer for this, but could a victorious clan choose to rule as Kampaku and/or Taiko (as Toyotomi Hideyoshi did) rather than as Shogun?
 
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It will be random, although they require quite a bit of locations to be landed, so it's difficult that there's a complete overlap between two clans.
So it is not whoever pushed the button to become landed first; you can still become landed and get some locations you had presence in from other clans who got the location first because they did the decision as soon as it became available then?
 
  1. For works of art, The Tale of Genji, The Tale of the Heike, the Kojiki and Nihongi, The Diary of Lady Murasaki, Ise Grand Shrine, the Seven Great Temples of Nara, and more should all be considered.
  2. How are you handling Japanese names? Aristocrats usually had two names over the course of their life (a childhood name and an adult name), and many had more (having multiple adult names and/or religious names). This is even worse for emperors, who had posthumous names that they wouldn't have used while alive.
  3. The Ōnin War was named after the period it started in, Ōnin (応仁). If the war occurs early or later, will its name be changed accordingly (E.G., Bunshō or Bunmei)? And on a broader note, are eras present? I.E., are there events for era changes or some kind of mechanic? (I'm guessing no.)
  4. Are shugodai/landed retainers going to be represented?
  5. What changes to the shogunate will we be able to see/effect (E.G., Tozama and Fudai daimyō, the han system, etc.).
  6. The current description of the Ōnin War is laughably wrong; it was primarily a succession issue between Yoshihisa (the shogun's son) and Yoshimi (his brother). Furthermore, the sengoku jidai was certainly caused by more than just a succession issue, so putting the Ōnin War as the event is a little weird. I'd say that the Meiō incident (a coup which was instigated by the kanrei) is a better starting event, less because that was when the period actually started (the situation had already gotten out of control nearly 40 years prior), but because it was the point where it was obvious just how powerless the shogun actually was.
  7. In spite of the above, the Ōnin War should be included, as should the Kyōtoku incident (a conflict between a branch of the Ashikaga family and the Uesugi clan). Probably as disasters, though they could conceivably be situations.
I agree with the main points of the original comment; it's very insightful. Building on that, I'd like to offer a more detailed suggestion on how to interpret the Ōnin War and translate it into a compelling game mechanic for EU5.
The original comment frames the war as "primarily a succession issue," but this was just one aspect. The true essence of the war lies in the process of polarization, where numerous local conflicts—such as the succession crises in major clans like the Hatakeyama and Shiba—gradually converged around two central power blocs.
Crucially, the leaders of these blocs during the historical Ōnin War, Hosokawa Katsumoto and Yamana Sōzen, were related by marriage and not driven by personal animosity. They were reluctantly forced into opposition as various factions sought their patronage, compelling them to become figureheads of opposing coalitions. The shogunal succession crisis was just one of many disputes that were later absorbed into this larger factional struggle.
To represent this historical complexity within EU5's dynamic environment, especially with a 1337 start date, a flexible system not tied to specific families is essential. I propose the following chain of mechanics:
  1. "Local Tinder" Events:
    Internal succession crises or other disputes trigger within influential Daimyo clans, modeled after the historical conflicts of the Hatakeyama and Shiba.
  2. Dynamic "Two Blocs" Formation:
    The parties in these local conflicts will seek patronage from one of the two most influential clans within the Shogunate at that time. This would allow two major factions to form dynamically based on the game's state. In one playthrough, this might be the Hosokawa and Yamana; in another, it could be the Imagawa and Uesugi who rise to become the leaders of these opposing blocs.
  3. Escalation to a Nationwide Disaster:
    As the rivalry between these two dynamically-formed factions intensifies and gets entangled with other issues like the shogunal succession, the tension reaches a breaking point, triggering a nationwide civil war Disaster, analogous to the historical Ōnin War.
By framing this as a dynamic process of "polarization" rather than a personal rivalry, the game could not only represent the historical Ōnin War but also allow for emergent, alternative civil wars (e.g., the "Kōshō War" or "Bunmei War") to occur naturally, creating a deeply replayable and historically authentic experience.
 
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What IOs will function during the Sengoku period, or how will the Shogunate IO change?

For example, in real life the Hosokawa clan was dominant in the 16th century for a time, reducing both the Ashikaga shogun and the emperor to puppets in Kyoto. Can this type of situation be represented, or is it only possible right now for a clan to usurp the shogun directly?

In fact, the shogun title was entirely abolished for 30 years in the three Great Unifiers, the part of the sengoku period that Japanese history is the most obsessed with. Can we claim new titles such as Kampaku? (Or I suppose, that would be reviving an old title)

And does clan independence mean full independence or are there certain limits from the Japan IO? Japan was still viewed as one country after all, and East Asian trade could be difficult if you did not possess the Japanese trade logbooks. But Europeans would of course be selling weapons to any clan.

Source: Isaac Meyer's History of Japan podcast, episodes 516-523
This is an excellent comment that touches on several key dynamics of the Sengoku period, and I largely agree. The question of whether a clan can dominate the Shogun and Emperor, as the Hosokawa did, is particularly central.
Building on that, I'd like to add a crucial nuance to this idea of "puppetry" that could lead to a more compelling game mechanic.
As you pointed out, the Ashikaga shoguns of the Sengoku period were not always powerless puppets. As detailed in works like Yasuhiro Yamada's The Ashikaga Shoguns' Sengoku Tumult, the relationship between the shoguns and the powerful Kanrei clans (like the Hosokawa) was not one of simple domination, but a tense power game characterized by a constant cycle of cooperation and conflict. The Shogun wielded the unique authority of his title as a weapon, playing powerful daimyo against each other to secure his own agency and survival.
The most potent symbol of this is the fact that Oda Nobunaga eventually exiled Shogun Ashikaga Yoshiaki. If the shogun were a perfectly controllable and convenient puppet, Nobunaga would have had no reason to get rid of him. The very fact that Nobunaga resorted to such an extreme measure proves that Yoshiaki was an independent political actor who refused to be controlled, actively using his authority to orchestrate an "anti-Nobunaga coalition."
To translate this historical dynamism into EU5, a system more nuanced than simple puppetry is needed:
  • A New Relationship, Not Just "Puppet State": The most powerful daimyo in the shogunate could gain a special status like "Guardian of the Shogun" or "De Facto Ruler" rather than making the Shogunate a direct subject.
  • A "Shogunal Power Struggle" Mechanic: In this position, the dominant daimyo can influence the Shogun's actions and reap benefits. However, the Shogun himself could generate a resource like "Shogunal Authority," which he can spend to take actions that defy the dominant lord (e.g., appointing a rival to a key post, sending out secret letters to other daimyo to form a coalition).
  • "Exiling the Shogun" as the Ultimate Decision: When a player (in Nobunaga's role) decides they can no longer tolerate the Shogun's resistance, they could take the "Exile the Shogun" or "Abolish the Shogunate" decision. This would require immense military power and legitimacy ("Tenka Fubu") and would come with severe penalties, such as massive rebellions and a loss of authority, making it a difficult and momentous choice.
This would create a tense and exciting gameplay loop, pitting the "dominant daimyo trying to control the Shogunate" against the "Shogun struggling to resist and maintain his authority," which perfectly encapsulates the political drama of the era.
 
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Can a toppled Shogunate be reduced to a Daimyo or a building-based clan, or the only fate a Shogun dynasty/regime may face is annihilation?
 
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