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Tinto Flavour #20 - 23rd of May 2025

Hello, and welcome one more week to Tinto Flavour, the happy Tuesdays & Fridays in which we take a look at the content of Europa Universalis V!

Today we will be taking a look at the content of Muscovy, and its ‘successor state’, Russia, after Grand Prince Ivan III ‘the Great’ proclaimed himself ‘Sovereign of All Russia’. This is a special TF, because it’s the first one in which we show the content for one of the seven ‘Tier 1’ counties, those that we consider the most important in the 1337-1836 period, and thus, that have the most content in the game.

Let’s start taking a look at it, as usual:

The Grand Principality of Muscovy stands at a crossroads of political maneuvering, and economic troubles under the Tatar Yoke, and an ongoing power struggle among East Slavic principalities, each vying for supremacy within the fragmented Rus' territories. The Tatar invasion continues to cast a long shadow over the region and Muscovy, like many other Rus' principalities, remains a tributary to the formidable Golden Horde.

Guiding Muscovy through these complexities is Grand Prince Ivan Rurikovich, a leader keenly aware of the delicate balance required for survival under Tatar dominion. He has skillfully managed the principality's affairs through diplomatic initiatives and strategic alliances and now seeks to consolidate power and enhance Muscovy's standing within the Yoke, with aspirations to unite the Rus' land under one banner.

Country Selection.png

As usual, consider all UI, 2D and 3D art WIP.

Muscovy1.png

Muscovy2.png

This is the starting diplomatic situation of Muscovy:
Personal Unions.png

Muscovy starts in a Personal Union with a bunch of principalities, including Novgorod, which is a Republic that elects its rulers among those of other countries.

Tatar Yoke.png

This is the current starting state of the Tatar Yoke, with Muscovy being entitled as the ‘Grand Prince of Vladimir’ - or, in other words, the ‘tribute collector’ for the Tatars. We won’t talk about this feature today, but in the Tinto Flavour devoted to the Golden Horde.

These are some of the privileges that the Russian countries have available from the start:
Privilege Kormlenije.png

Privilege The Ryad.png

Priviliege Tysiatskii Office.png

Also, this starting Legal Code Policy:
Policy Russkaya Pravda.png

Here you have some of the advances available for Muscovy and Russia through the ages, as usual:
Advance Gatherers Tribute.png

Advance Pomestnoe.png

Advance Zasechnara.png

Advance Imperial Guard.png

And now let’s move into the narrative content. Muscovy has 109 Dynamic Historical Events available, while there are another 73 unlockable after having formed Russia, which makes for a total of 182 available DHEs - that’s what being a ‘Tier 1’ country means, in regards to content. Many of them will unlock very different types of other content assets, as you’ll see now:

Event Campaigns against Novgorod.png

This is an event that may trigger if Novgorod elects another ruler, as happened historically.

Kremlin.png

Kremlin2.png

If you build the Kremlin, there will be further events related to it.

Event Denga and Ruble.png


Event Prikazi.png

Reform Prikazi.png


Event Book of Census.png

Reform Razriadnyi.png


Event Sophia Komnenos.png

ReformByzantine Court Ceremonies.png

If Byzantium falls, and some other conditions are met, you might be able to marry a Greek princess, and proclaim your country as the ‘Third Rome’.

If you expand your country, you might be able to form Russia at a certain point:
Form Russia.png

Russian Empire.png

Russian Empire2.png

The Russian Principalities account for approximately 460 locations, so you need to conquer some more from the Golden Horde to get to the 508 required. I forced it through the console to show it to you, but one of our QA testers made a recent run, and he was able to form it around 1500, OOC.

When the Age of Reformation starts, there will be this advance available for the Russian countries:
Siberian Frontier1.png

That unlocks:
Pomor Outpost.png

Settle the Frontier.png

It’s also possible for a unique disaster to trigger, the Time of Troubles:
Time of Troubles1.png

Time of Troubles2.png

Time of Troubles3.png

Time of Troubles4.png

Time of Troubles5.png

Time of Troubles has many different events happening, on top of the DHEs:

If you overcome it, there’s even more late-game content, of course:

Reform Collegium.png


Reform Nakaz.png


Reform Speransky.png


Event Bolshoi.png

Bolsoi Theater.png

… And much more, but that’s all for today! As today is Friday, this will be the schedule for next week:
  • Monday -> Tinto Flavour about Venice and Genoa
  • Tuesday -> Tinto Flavour about Serbia and Georgia
  • Wednesday -> Tinto Talks about the Orthodox and Miaphysite religions
  • Thursday -> Third ‘Behind the Scenes’ video!
  • Friday -> Tinto Flavour about the Roman Empire, AKA Byzantium
And also remember, you can wishlist Europa Universalis V now! Cheers!
 
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I've read discussions about Kremlin here and disagree with what being said.
This was pointed out by @Sledjer and others but I feel like this is worth reiterating, so:

let's define some things, so there is no confusion

Kremlin is a term for type of fortress in the middle of a town. So there is Kazan Kremlin, Novgorodian Kremlin etc.

But the most well known is Moscow Kremlin. So later when I type "Kremlin" I specifically mean Moscow Kremlin.



Originaly in Moscow, Kremlin was made from wood (it was built around 1147 and city counts it's foundation from this date).

In 1367 Kremlin was upgraded with local Moscow white stone.
Sources:
1. http://www.russiancity.ru/books/b70.htm#c7g -in russian- page 130 (КАМЕННЫЙ КРЕМЛЬ ДМИТРИЯ ДОНСКОГО).
2. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/50669 (paywall :( )

That's why even today in russian language people sometimes call Moscow "Москва белокаменная" (Moscow whitestoned). So Kremlin was indeed white for it's first stone iteration.


Later it was upgraded with red bricks in 1484. These are Kremlin walls you see nowadays.
1. https://rusneb.ru/catalog/000199_000009_001112397/ -in russian- page 257
2. https://muse.jhu.edu/article/50669 (paywall :( )

And in later years still it was painted white and after revolution red.

Here is a good summary. This is just an opinion piece from a russian designer, not to be taken as serious source, but histography checks out:
https://www.artlebedev.com/mandership/174/?ysclid=mbkpfcryms767617457




So IMO it would be very cool to have it like this:

Level 1 - Kremlin has white walls from white stone. Picture should be different from the ones used later, something like this:
1749209588715.png




Level 2 - Look of today's Kremlin but it is of reddish color of red bricks (not painted red as of now). Maybe like this but without all the churches inside, they were built a little bit later.
1749210122483.png



Level 3 - you get an event: choice to paint it white or remain reddish as before and now you can have it like this with all the churches:
1749210158951.png


Maybe even if you decided to paint it white it gives you additional prestige but in 40-50 years paint cracks and wears thin and you have event prompting Kremlin to be repainted (giving you prestige for money again) or you let coat wear off completly and take a little bit of a prestige hit. Then you can repaint it again on the monument screen.


I understand this is a lot of effort but I think this would be very cool to have. Things like this give monuments flavour and personality. Also adds historical context and trivia in a natural way.
Very boring when it is just the button you have to press 3 tmes to get bonuses.
 
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Will EU V let us model the de facto emergence of a separate Russian(-specific) Orthodox Church after Nikon's reforms?
Historically the Muscovite Church used the same "Orthodox" label to keep its political leverage, but after 1653 its rites diverged enough to make it a distinct body, while the "Old Believers" (Raskolniki/Old Rite) split off in protest. A few key facts:
  1. Autocephaly long predates Nikon. Moscow elected its own metropolitan in 1448, moscow’s bishops unilaterally elect Jonah as Metropolitan, de facto autocephaly, and was formally recognised as an independent patriarchate in 1589, Constantinople recognises and raises Moscow to a patriarchate.
  2. Nikon (Patriarch 1652–66) tried to "realign" Muscovite rites with contemporary Greek practice: three-finger cross, triple allelouïa, revised books; triggers the Raskol ("Split"/Schism). Nikon's policy centralised church power under the Tsar, making the post-1653 ROC functionally another church while retaining the name.
  3. The result was the Raskol("Split"/Schism)-millions refused the new books, were branded schismatics, and founded the Old-Believer communities that persist today. Millions refuse the new rite => Old Believer movement; persecutions, uprisings.
Any chance we’ll see a decision chain like that? It would mesh nicely with the "Time of Troubles" disaster and give Russia a genuine mid-game fork instead of a flat (since Russia often becomes a snowball in strategy games, this would add real risk and depth) +stab event.
Would love to hear if something along these lines is planned-or if modders will have to do it themselves
 
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I know, but the fact that it happened in 1512 shatters his "Poland was stronger from 1337 up until Peter the Great" narrative.
Did I just witness some people arguing that Muscovy was stronger and more relevant power than Poland in 1512 based on... war result from Wikipedia page about Muscovite-Lithuanian war, where the only Polish contribution was battle of Orsha in 1514, won by Poland so overwhelmingly that Habsburgs noped out of anti Polish coalition? That's quite the disho.... sorry, that's quite a Russian take.
 
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Did I just witness some people arguing that Muscovy was stronger and more relevant power than Poland in 1512 based on... war result from Wikipedia page about Muscovite-Lithuanian war, where the only Polish contribution was battle of Orsha in 1514, won by Poland so overwhelmingly that Habsburgs noped out of anti Polish coalition? That's quite the disho.... sorry, that's quite a Russian take.
Yes, yes it is.
 
*clears throat*
I am aware that what's done is done, but I can, and I will complain nonetheless. I too do not agree with Muscovy/Russia being tier 1 nation with most flavour, not because I do not like it(the more content in game, the better!), but because nothing in life is free, and development time spent on Muscovy was development time not spent on nation that actually deserves T1 spot, like, Portugal or Sweden to just name two. And it comes with some consequences, on that, later.

First of all, I don't understand reasoning behind it. Russia is T1, because it's a historical winner? What does that mean? Should Poland be T1 nation in Victoria series, because it exists at the start date (Krakow, or not implemented kingdom/congress Poland), but over time (by the end date) it massively expands it's territory and scores a win in war against Russia and successfully rebels and defeats German army in Greater Poland uprising? No it shouldn't, it's fucking nonsense. Poland was irrelevant for 80% of the time period.
Ottomans get defeated in Vienna and go into decline? Spain gets to see Polish Los infiernos picadores? Out with both of them, they don't deserve T1! USA becomes relevant in 18th century, and over time becomes literally superpower, yet no T1 for it? I smell bias. EDIT: How could I forget about China, about to begin century of humiliation.

Most games in Eu4 end before ~1600. I REALLY hope that won't be the case in EU5, or more precisely, I should say, I hope it will be the case in Eu5, as that would mean ~250 years of timeline, when player doesn't get bored, not 150 like in Eu4. And do you want to know how relevant was Moscow in that timeline? Remember Victorian Poland? They wish. People were at least aware that Poland existed and was occupied, no-one in the world cared or knew about Moscow pre 1600.
But it was Tsardom and x

No one recognized that title. Poles literally laughed of Muscovite ambitions (and delegations) about the whole Tsar of all Rus thing. The only knowledge about Russia in the West came from Sigismund von Herbenstein, from his Rerum Moscoviticarum Commentarii, published in 1549. And not like his position on Muscovy was very favourable. When Muscovy lost war against PLC and signed truce of Yam-Zapolsky, they didn't sign it as tsardom. When "tsar" Shuisky committed an act of homage to the Polish King, well, just see for yourself(one of the pics below). Magno Duce sure doesn't sound very czar like. What's worse, Poles literally saw them as barbarians, a temporary nuisance. LITERALLY stanczyk.png
stanczyk.jpg
Jan_Matejko.jpg
Shuysky.jpg

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But Moscow won some battles/wars against Poland
What kind of an argument is that? Zulus defeated British forces, so one should call it Zultorian era, not a Victorian one? Germanics defeated Romans in some wars/battles, that doesn't make "Germania" a relevant or important power. Early medieval Poland defeated "HRE" in some wars, and again, that doesn't make early medieval Poland force equal to HRE. Surprise surprise, not every war is maximum no chill total war. Not every war has clear victors, in fact, it's more rare that one would think. Linking some Wikipedia articles and pointing out war result as clear Moscow victory, because it snatched village or two, is giveaway of... being Russian. You know, what happened when Bathory finally snapped and went to war with Moscow? It literally collapsed them. Talk about power difference.

----------------------------------------------
And now I'm going to call it by the name. It's cold war bullshit. Next thing I see is Poland in Eastern Europe nonsense, with unit models like some tribal soldiers armed in scale armor. In my previous post I referenced Battle of Orsha, Let's check painting created by a direct witness to the battle:
Can you differentiate between Polish-Lithuanian armies, and the Muscovite ones? Of course you can't, they are the same culture!

Orsha.jpg


From all your posts here I can see, that there was a approximately hundred years period, when PLC managed to achieve victories against Russia. Worth to mention, that this is only about 20% of the game timeline, and this goes directly against your claim about weak/insignificant Moscovy/Russia.
And how can you claim early/mid game polish supremacy, if you state that Poland did not fight Muscovy/Russia before the Livonian war?
Just.... what? "Poland didn't fight Muscovy in 1337 therefore Muscovy is more relevant." Like, think for a moment about that sentence. maybe, just maybe, because they didn't border each other? Maybe because Muscovy was enjoying the "protection" of the Tatars? Maybe because Poland had other things to do, like, fighting against Bohemia, Hungary, and Teutons to become local hegemon?

And you even mentioned, that the first part of 1600 was called "Time of Troubles" in russian lands, so even during one of the most difficult moments for russian states, PLC failed to defeat them desciesevly, removing or significantly weakening potential future opponent.
Time of Troubles were side effect of an overwhelming Polish victory in Livonian wars. Muscovy had to beg the Pope to save them. and well, duh, decisively winning part, see pictures above, tribute one(and yeah I'm aware that's a different tribute, but the point is the same).

However, russian principalities stopped Mongol invasion into Europe.
I'm not even gonna comment on that.
Also first russian university was established in 1724 in St. Petersburg.
Ah yeah, Muscovy was very relevant before 1600, because.... 1724 is what century again?

We can compare the amount of people playing Novgorod and Moscovy, versus Poland and Lithuania after release of the game
Modern audience should not be a valid reason to shit on resemblance of historical accuracy. Oh damn, change of mind. Ryukyu in fact should be at least T2 nation, every streamer played as them.

The Smolensk War (1632-1634) and Russo-Polish War (1654-1667) beg to disagree. :p
Behold, a famous Russian firehose of falsehood. First one is straight up PLC victory, and about the second one, read the god damn article. Given the position of PLC at that moment, in later phases PLC went on to face roll forces of Moscow, and the war ended it yet another totally not a status quo. "War marked the beginning of the rise of Russia as a great power in eastern Europe", literally from the very article. How far away is that from rule of Peter the Great? The other poster's argument about Peter the Great being the turning point is quite on point.

edits:grammar
 
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