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lucaluca

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Dec 7, 2003
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Muslim cultures

I found that in the frist to scenarios (the third I din't check), the culture of the muslims asian provinces is a bit weird:
- 1066: all seljuks provinces in Persia are arabic; but I saw a newly conquered province in Anatolia switch to persian :confused:
- 1187: all muslim provinces in Anatolia are arabic :confused: , actually arabs never went to Anatolia; in azerbajan the culture is turkish (and that's right)
 
Upvote 0
lucaluca said:
I found that in the frist to scenarios (the third I din't check), the culture of the muslims asian provinces is a bit weird:
- 1066: all seljuks provinces in Persia are arabic; but I saw a newly conquered province in Anatolia switch to persian :confused:
- 1187: all muslim provinces in Anatolia are arabic :confused: , actually arabs never went to Anatolia; in azerbajan the culture is turkish (and that's right)


I have no idea how the setup of cultures should be.

So I'm going to leave this for discussions for a while.
if you have any online sources to back up your claim it would be great.:)
 
kurtbrian said:
I have no idea how the setup of cultures should be.

So I'm going to leave this for discussions for a while.
if you have any online sources to back up your claim it would be great.:)
But I thought that everyone noticed this, instead no one cares?
Ok, let's say:
1066- Seljuks Turk are a turkish dinasty which took the power in Persia during XI century, coming from central Asia; so we're talking about turks and persians in Persia, but EVERY province in Persia is set as arabic culture in this scenario! That's wrong, because arabs conquered Persia, but the persian culture (and language) is still there, (remember arabs are semitic, and persians indoeuropeans); a sort of arabization was carried out under ummayad and abbasid dynasties, but after that local persian dynasties came to power, such as Buwayids, Samanids and others.
http://www.art-arena.com/arab.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia
These links are not so good :( , please if someone could help me to find something better...
However my proposal is to change the culture in all persian provinces to persian, and to keep the culture of the seljuk dinasty turkish.
I didn't check the culture of persian provinces in the other 2 scenarios, but I think the culture should remain persian, and of course the culture of the Ilkhanate dynasty, which should rule Persia in the other 2 scenarios, mongol.

1187 and 1337- here I noticed that the culture of the seljuks provinces conquered in Anatolia is arabic...but that' simply impossible: the seljuks conquer of Anatolia brought turk people there, which through inbreeding with local greeks, armenians and other cultures, produced the actual turkish race of Turkey; I noticed also that the culture in Azerbaijan is set as turkish, and that's right.
http://www.focusmm.com/civi_022.htm
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/med/saunders.html
I will check better the set-up of scenarios and try to find some better font (sorry for poor english).
 
Ok I checked which provinces I THINK (so not sure I'm right) should have different culture in the various scenarios:

- 1066
PROVINCES:
from arabic to persian:
Shemaka,669
shirvan, 668
azerbaijan, 670
tabriz, 667
gilan, 666
dailam, 665
mazandaran, 662
qazwin, 664
rayy, 663
luristan, 657
hamadan, 658
avhaz,
khozistan,
hendjan, 647
qom, 648
qwivin, 660
tabaristan, 661
esfahan, 646
shiraz, 644
fars, 643
laristan, 642
hormuz, 641
darab, 640
kerman, 639
sistan, 637
yazd, 638
qohistan, 635
lut, 636
nishapur,634
gurgan, 633
khorasan, 632
merv, 630
dihistan.631
from arabic to turkish:
karakum, 627
turkmen, 629
bukhara, 628
maverannahr 626,
khwarizm,623
ustyurt, 625
derbent, 674
semender, 675
albania.673
DYNASTIES:
from arabic to turkish: Qaraqnid
http://eurasia-research.com/erc/004cam.htm
In this link is said that the karahanid created the turkish culture inside the muslim world (like samanids for persian)

- 1187:
PROVINCES:
from arabic to turkish:
dorylaion, 749
ankyra, 753
galatia, 752
tyana, 760
ikonion, 759
kaisereia, 737
melitene, 706
koloneia, 705
chaldea, 704
taron.700
from cuman to turkish (?):
karakum, 627
mavarunnahr,626
khwarizm, 623
ustyurt.625
from turkish muslim to greek orthodox:
trapezous 678
from arabic muslim to greek orthodox:
nikaeia 750
- 1337:
PROVINCES:
from arabic to turkish:
nikaeia, 750
herakleia, 740
tyana, 760
ankyra, 753
paphlagonia, 751
sinope, 739
galatia, 752
kaisereia, 737
melitene, 706
koloneia, 705
chaldea.704
from turkish to arabic:
suwaida, 712
euphrates, 696
deir, 695
kirkuk, 687
karbala, 694
baghdad, 693
al-miqdadiyah,688
al najaf, 692
al-amarah, 690
ilam, 689
kufa, 655
basra.649
from turkish to persian:
hamadan, 658
luristan.657
from cuman to turkish:
karakum, 627
ustyurt, 625
mavarunnahr,626
khwarizm 623
 
Last edited:
Ok this link is interisting
http://www.mage.com/TLbody.html

Some quote to try defend persian culture (Mevlana gelaleddin rumi, you should thank me :rofl: ):

661-750 -- The Umayyad Caliphate emerged as the rulers of the Islamic world. Although they maintained the Sasanians' administrative practices, the Umayyads considered Islam as primarily an Arab religion and were wary of Persian culture. They tried to force the Arabic language upon the Persians, leading to the demise of the Middle Persian or Pahlavi alphabet in favor of the new Arabic/Persian alphabet in use to this day. They also tried to eradicate the independent and unique sense of Persian identity in the same way that they "Arabized" and assimilated the Egyptians and the Assyrians, but with minimal success.

696 -- Arabic became the official language of the Islamic world.
but...

750 -- With Persian financing and support, the Abbasids ended Umayyad rule. Their victorious armies were led by a Persian general named Abu Muslim Khorasani. The Islamic capital was relocated from Damascus to Baghdad, a newly built city adjacent to the old Sasanian capital, Ctesiphon. This relocation symbolized the rising power of Persians in the Islamic world.

750-1258 -- The Abbasid Caliphate relied on Persian ministers and bureaucracy for many state functions. Persian customs began to take deep roots under the Abbasids. The offices of the vizier (minister) and the divan (or bureau for state revenue) were copied from the Sasanian model and later caliphs adopted the Persian courts' ceremonial procedures and the trappings of the Sasanian kings. The Persian Barmakid family became architects of the Abbasid political structure and several members of their family became notable grand viziers. The Abbasid reign marked the pinnacle of the power and glory of the Islamic world.

Persia's Cultural Golden Age

820-1220 -- Arab rule over Persia began to diminish as various local Persian monarchs rose to power: the Tahirids (821-873), Saffarids (867-903), Samanids (873-999), Ziyarids (928-1077) and Buyids (945-1055). They were followed by Turkic dynasties with Persian culture: the Ghaznavids (962-1186), Seljuqs (1038-1153) and Khwarazmis (1153-1220). The modern Persian language was born and it soon blossomed into one of the most poetic languages of the world. The Samanids were the first to adopt Persian as the official language of their court. Once again, Persia became a world center for art, literature and science. Key figures in nearly all fields of endeavor in the Islamic world, Persians played a major role in the advancement of Islamic civilization.

so only the ummayads tried to cancel the persian culture, like they did succefully with assirian, egiptian and african; but they badly failed, and the persian culture was not only firmly kept in Persia, but became the universal language of muslim court (even ottoman); so I can see no points to keep arabic culture in persia in the 1066 hastings scenario.
 
kurtbrian said:
I have no idea how the setup of cultures should be.

So I'm going to leave this for discussions for a while.
if you have any online sources to back up your claim it would be great.:)


Your telling me he needs evidence to suggest Persians live in Persia and proof that the Seljuk Turks were Turks? :rofl:

Player: "Something isn't right here Germany is filled with Berbers in the 1066 scenario but I am pretty sure Germans lived there"

Moderator: "DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE TO PROVE GERMANS LIVED IN GERMANY?"

:eek: :eek: :D
 
Finally someone noticed this bug; let's hope it will be fixed soon. :rolleyes:

I think also that the arabs in anatolia it's a clear bug, but arabs in persia in 1066 could had been a choice to show the power of arabs over muslims; infact in 1187 and 1337 persians are there. So I really don't know :wacko:
 
John Poole said:
Your telling me he needs evidence to suggest Persians live in Persia and proof that the Seljuk Turks were Turks? :rofl:

Player: "Something isn't right here Germany is filled with Berbers in the 1066 scenario but I am pretty sure Germans lived there"

Moderator: "DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE TO PROVE GERMANS LIVED IN GERMANY?"

:eek: :eek: :D
yeah yeah so sue me.:D

But in my defence I have no knowledge of various cultural setup during CK's timespan, and you canbe sure that if you have one poster saying that germans lived in germany i 1066, you WILL have some nutcase claiming that berbers lived there up untill they were driven out by germans in the late 18th century.

So it was not as much as I did not believe Lucaluca, but it is just stanbdard procedure to have it verified by others and with links.:)
 
lucaluca said:
- 1187:
PROVINCES:
from arabic to turkish: nikaia, dorylaion, ankyra, galatia, tyana, ikonion, kaisereia, melitene, koloneia, chaldea, taron.
from cuman to turkish (?): karakum, mavarunnahr, khwarizm, ustyurt.
from turkish muslim to greek orthodox: trapezous

I would say that Nikaia at least should be Greek Orthodox, not Turkish. In 1187 it was a Byzantine possession.
 
Solmyr said:
I would say that Nikaia at least should be Greek Orthodox, not Turkish. In 1187 it was a Byzantine possession.

You're right but in that scenario Nikaia is under turkish rule!!
I will edit my suggestions.
 
kurtbrian said:
yeah yeah so sue me.:D

But in my defence I have no knowledge of various cultural setup during CK's timespan, and you canbe sure that if you have one poster saying that germans lived in germany i 1066, you WILL have some nutcase claiming that berbers lived there up untill they were driven out by germans in the late 18th century.

So it was not as much as I did not believe Lucaluca, but it is just stanbdard procedure to have it verified by others and with links.:)

POTM! :D

Sometimes, this is what makes me love this board. Not only would someone have concrete "proof" that the Berbers owned Germany until the 18th century, you'd have a dozen people wondering what game effects it *really* has, 10 people chiming in with "me too", and 4 people passionate about the fact that the English should own Hannover in 1066.
 
Solmyr said:
Well, that's wrong. Nikaia should be Byzantine in 1187.
And anyway, quite a few areas under Turkish rule were still Greek Orthodox for centuries.

So you could check the scenario and make your suggestions :)
 
just added the province ID thanx to Daywalker's map; on the thread title here is written BUG, but on the bug list is listed as Feedback; so which is the truth? :cool: