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1520 EEP

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As a really rough idea about Golden Horde area circa 1520.

rus.JPG


I know that Kazan seems a bit overstated but I didn't see anyone that the Saratow province really seemed to fit with.
 
Poland and Lithuania

Hi, big fan of the 1520 scenario.

Here are some of my observations dealing with Poland.

Poland is almost always dragged into a Crimean war by Lithuania. A few months later, Russia attacks Lithuania. A few months after that, Livonian Order attacks Lithuania. So, by the end of 1520, Poland-Lithuania are at war with Russia, Teutonic Order, Livonian Order and the Crimea. In the few months that LIT/POL are at war with CRI, they have lost 50% of their already small forces due to attrition.

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Historically this is what happened during this era.

1519-1521: Last Teutonic Wars:

This war lasted until 1521, resulting in the gradual collapse of the Orders due to the Reformation.

HISTORIC RESULT: Stalemate (TO/LO collapse internally)

1512-1521: War with Muscovy

Both Poland and Lithuania were at war with Russia after continuing interference and invasion. The 2nd war took place from 1512 and 1521, with Russia experiencing massive casualties with very little results for either side.

HISTORIC RESULT: Stalemate (POL cripples RUS army, but cannot retake cities)

What happens in the game?

Teutonic War: RESULT, Lithuania loses 1 province (9 out of 10 times)

Russian War: RESULT, Lithuania loses 2 provinces (9 out of 10 times) with the main loss being the Ukraine.

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What I propose is the following for the 1520 scenario.

#1. Polish-Lithuanian war against Livonian and Teutonic Orders.
(have this war exist at the start, but with weaker LO/TO forces)

By 1520 this war was going badly for LO and TO, and after a year a of fighting truce was signed.

#2. Polish-Lithuanian war against Russia.
(have this war exist at the start, but have strong Polish forces in Lithuania and a weaker Russian military force)

Even though Poland and Lithuania did not make any territorial gains, they really savaged the Russian Army.

#3. Polish quality edge over Russian troops (Battle of Orsza 1514: 30 000 Russians killed, 500 Poles killed, due primarily to powerful Polish Cavalry, this remained constant throughout the campaign even though the Poles could not recapture Solmensk) Keep the Lithuanian Army weak (was savaged by the 1506-1508 war), but the Polish Army should be very strong in both numbers and quality

I noticed [in the above discussions about increasing land/naval tech] that Polish land quality was stated at being equal to that of Lithuania/Russia. However, since the Polish Army was very effective against both Russia and the TO/LO forces, and was on par with the Ottomans, I think it should be lumped with Latin tech instead of 3-4 tech levels lower (i.e., equal to Russia).

#4. I also noticed that Polish manpower in the 1520 scenario is lower then in the 1419 scenario. Here are some differences.

Galizien: 1419 = 1.3 manpower, 1520 = 0.0 manpower
Prussia: 1419 = 1.0 manpower, 1520 = 0.0 manpower
Memel: 1419 = 1.0 manpower, 1520 = 0.0 manpower

This low manpower really nails the Polish player from having armies larger then 30 000, which is very important when fighting many nations at once.

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Simply:

#1. Polish War with Teutonic Order/Livonian Order in 1520 (no territorial change, Lithuania Neutral)
#2. Polish/Lithuanian War with Russia in 1520 (no territorial change)
#3. Poland gets revised Latin equivalent in land tech (orthodox naval tech though)
#4. Revise starting armies and location (more POL, fewer LO/TO/RUS)
 
Re: Poland and Lithuania

Originally posted by McNaughton
Simply:

#1. Polish War with Teutonic Order/Livonian Order in 1520 (no territorial change, Lithuania Neutral)
#2. Polish/Lithuanian War with Russia in 1520 (no territorial change)
#3. Poland gets revised Ottoman equivalent in land tech (orthodox naval tech though)
#4. Revise starting armies and location (more POL, fewer LO/TO/RUS)
Click to expand...

Okay, thanks:)
 
Re: Re: Poland and Lithuania

Originally posted by Garbon
Okay, thanks:)
Click to expand...

Hi, while you posted I slightly revised my post, based on Land tech. It might be the same, but more clearly stated, that Poland should have Latin Land tech vs. a revised Ottoman Land tech.
 
War Exhaustion

Someone mentioned this earlier, but I think it needs some more focus.

While playing as Poland for about 15 game years, much of which I was at war (none of the wars I declared, but was dragged into by Lithuania), was that I was at a constant 5-6% Revolt rate for virtually every province, even with a +3 stability, and even after peacetime.

What was even MORE scary, was watching what happened to the Ottoman Empire. By the 1530's they had been at war for a long time, once they end one, another would begin. They had between 25-30% Revolt rates for every province. Even after their government fell and they lost 5 provinces, their revolt risk remained high at around 10-15%, and revolts started up again.

I was at a fairly unaggressive mode. Europe was comparably quiet, with many short and distinct wars (i.e., very few nations at constant war and they have very low revolt risks). However, on the fringes (in Eastern Europe, the Balkans and Middle East) wars were almost constant, and of long duration, and most of these nations had high revolt risks.

Some of this is probably due to a lot of nations having core territories in 1520 that were not viewed as core, or were not viewed as such until much later.

For example, Russia should probably remove its core territories from the existing Lithunian territories, as war with Lithuania (after 1521) was not begun again until 1534.

The Ottoman Empire almost always declares war on Persia in 1520, and fights them until they go to war against Georgia, and fight them until they go to war against Hungary.

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What is a possible solution to this?
 
Okay here is my newest proposed setup for Golden Horde area.

rus2.JPG


I researched the regions of Ufa and Samara and found that many sites had references to Kazan exerting control over parts of these regions.

That two-province state with the Golden Horde's flag is the Kasim Khanate. Related to the Kazan Khanate but it would outlast it until 1681 (Russian vassal from 1552). Established by son of founder of Kazan. I propose this for the 1520 scenario, in combination, with it being a revolter for the 1419 campaign.

Perhaps this other Tataria emblem from FOTW could be used, though quite similar to the current one for Kazan.

ru-ta_hb.gif
 
Last edited:
Re: War Exhaustion

Originally posted by McNaughton


The Ottoman Empire almost always declares war on Persia in 1520, and fights them until they go to war against Georgia, and fight them until they go to war against Hungary.

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What is a possible solution to this?
Click to expand...

In general, I don't know what to do to stop the war exhaustion problem but I can say that wars with Georgia should cease as the Ottomans no longer have a cb there.
 
http://history.mapsofindia.com/medival-india/babur-invasion.html

This is a map of India in 1526. The only major change I see is that Bihar and Tirhut provinces are now owned by Delhi instead of Bengal. We could easily represent the Kingdom of Sind, Gondwana, and Khandesh, Ahmandnagar is already in the EEP, but I wonder how should Bijapur, Bidar, Goloconda, and Berar should be represented. Is Hyberdad a representation of these states? Lastly, was Mysore independent in 1526?
 
Originally posted by Fate
http://history.mapsofindia.com/medival-india/babur-invasion.html

This is a map of India in 1526. The only major change I see is that Bihar and Tirhut provinces are now owned by Delhi instead of Bengal. We could easily represent the Kingdom of Sind, Gondwana, and Khandesh, Ahmandnagar is already in the EEP, but I wonder how should Bijapur, Bidar, Goloconda, and Berar should be represented. Is Hyberdad a representation of these states? Lastly, was Mysore independent in 1526?
Click to expand...

The Kingdom of Sind would look sort of funky though. So would Gondwana and Khandesh.

Hyberdad is indeed a representation of Bijapur, Bidar, Goloconda, and Berar. Looking back at an old thread, Aetius suggested that the nation be renamed Deccan which is more encompassing.

It seems that Mysore can be represented in one of two ways. A vassal of Vijayanagar until it falls, or as a part of Vij until Vij falls.
 
Württemberg

I have noticed that in the 1520 scenario that Württemberg is a part of Austria. Looking at maps from the time period, it does not appear that Württemberg was integrated into Austria, but rather shouldn't it be a vassal? I have only been able to find maps of 1500, 1600 and 1520, so it might have a short lived annexation as a part of Austria that I am not aware of.
 
Andy: It was a short lived annexation due to the Duke not meeting his debts if I'm not mistaken. There are events to take care of it.

Good nick by the way.
 
Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Andy: It was a short lived annexation due to the Duke not meeting his debts if I'm not mistaken. There are events to take care of it.

Good nick by the way.
Click to expand...

Cool, that's what I thought.

I always thought that McNaughton got a bad deal from WW2, and feel this is the best tribute I could give him.
 
Eastern Europe Wars

I think I found a way to simulate the wars that Poland/Lithuania are in for the start of the 1520 scenario.

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For the Last Teutonic War, have the following changes

Increase Poland's stability to 2.
Decrease Teutonic/Livonian Order stabilities to -1
Decrease starting Teutonic/Livonian Order forces by 50% (simulate losses and defections due to war and reformation)
Decrease starting Teutonic/Livonian Order finances

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For the 1512-1521 Poland-Russia War, have the following changes

Decrease Russia's stability to 0
Decrease starting Russian forces by 25% (to simulate constant attrition)
Decrease Russia's troop quality, increase Poland's troop quality

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Increase the Manpower in the Province of Galizien from 0.0 to 1.3 (as it is 1.3 in every other scenario but this one), which will help Poland maintain a large enough army to survive.
 
Originally posted by Garbon
Who should play the roles of attackers in the two wars?
Click to expand...

TO/LO were convinced by the Russian Tsar to start border skirmishes with Poland-Lithuania which gradually led to war, so I guess TO/LO are the aggressors.

The Russian war was actually a continuation of an earlier one, and this one was also initiated by Russia through supporting an uprising in Solmensk and claiming the territory.
 
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