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They failed to balance the game properly to keep the late game challenging, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't aim for it. Fixing issues that undermine late-game balance and difficulty is a worthwhile pursuit.

Again, what late-game balance?

This is not an objection of 'everything is unbalanced, so it's not worth trying.' This is a fundamental of question of what 'late-game balance' is supposed to mean. You are raising 'late-game' balance as if it's a goal, but without making a case of what it means without functionally breaking most of the premise of strategy games.

Pretty much every strategy game works on a premise of growth feeding growth, and the ability to take away someone else's assets, until a point that one party or another gets runaway advantages. Once this critical mass, the winning party is going to dominate, and the more they dominate the more they can dominate. The reason the average chess game only lasts 40 turns is because by that point both parties are agreed that match is hopelessly lopsided in the late game.

This is fundamentally not a balanced result. It is also not a problem. What you are seeing by the end-game is whether someone is 'winning.' Winning is the point.

And this disparity gets even bigger when actual economic growth factors in. Economic growth strategies are often exponential- the increase in growth accelerates the potential increase in growth, allowing further investments. This isn't quite as true in CK as in other paradox games, but it absolutely does apply- you go to war to get more income that you can invest in the resources for more war and more income buildings which bring in more income which-

Jumping to the extreme late-game, functionally post-game, of a strategey game and going 'this doesn't seem balanced' is presupposing that it is supposed to be balanced at that point. It's not. You don't try to balance chess around what you can get to at turn 60.

Strategy games are balanced around their openings, not their end-games. The end-games are expected to be unbalanced.

So when you say 'late-game balance'... what late-game balance?

Particularly when knight-effectiveness is a tall-empire power fantasy, and removing it just moves power to big blobs with more forces, which would be inherently unbalanced against smaller blobs with fewer forces?

Furthermore, from a realism standpoint, the idea of three knights defeating an army of 13,733 is simply unrealistic. ;)

Realistically, how often are you seeing the AI or your multiplayer competitors pursue 2017% knight effectiveness?

If you want to argue on the basis of realism, the premise that a player in the medieval era has real-time knowledge of the world map, can send messages across the Eurasian continent at light speed, and that the average 21st century hobbiest would be any good at medieval politics. The question is not if it is realistic. The question is whether it lets the game be fun.

There are absolutely people who find space-marine-knight concepts fun. They like the ability to out-punch their empire size. It was a much-requested aspect of the CK2 combat system, where levies and retinues both scaled by empire size, and so the map inevitably turned into blob-fests where you blobbed or your got outmassed. It wasn't hard to blob, and if you did blob it wasn't hard to keep beating the AI. But it was a playstyle plenty of people didn't find fun, because they didn't want to paint the map to survive, or swear fealty and be a vassal, or be conquered. Disproportionate power could let them avoid all of that, even as it offered another way of military domination that was already possible.

For the people for whom space marine knights aren't fun... again, this goes into the nature of a self-inflicted problem.
 
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Paradox: “Let’s take a perfectly functional warfare system and turn it into a nonsensical mess that we will have to figure out how to fix later down the line at the expense of forgoing development time that is otherwise used to bring new features into the game.”


Well done.

I mean to be fair...it's not completely non-sensicle.

As I outlined if you wanted to mathematically make a abstract "knight" with an equivilent "retinue" of 100 heavy footmen or 50 heavy cavalry be better than the best recruitable men-at-arms unit...then you are looking at the goal of x2 whatever the equivilent best unit is...and that for everyone (faction) is the "retinue vangaurd" or "retinue heavy lancers" - we will ignore bowmen for now.

Comparatively you are looking at RVangaurd @ 55 x 100 = 5,500 damage or RLancers @ 200 x 50 = 10,000 damage, base.

The base stats for your average knight should be 5,500 to 10,000 damage.

So if average Prowess is about 20+ you get 5,500 ÷ 20 = 110 damage per prowess...which is exactly where the developers landed. You'd need base Prowess of 40 to be equivilent to RLancers. This doesn't factor in advantage, terrain bonuses, or countering of other units.

So to be fair the base function of knights makes perfect sense actually...poised to be the equivilent of "generals bodygaurd" unit from Medieval 2 Total War...same stats as heavy cavalry unit but with 2 hp each instead of 1 or in otherwords twice as effective.

The non-sensicle part comes with the 580% damage increase to heavy infantry and required 2000% increase to knights to compensate becuase end game 580% increase to retinue vangaurd ~= 2000% increase to knight effectiveness.

Coincidently heavy calvary max bonus is much lower like at 280% or something if I remember right, which is about equal in damage becuase they do about 4 x the damage (55 vs 200) but have only half the number of troops (100 vs 50) - requiring a factor of x2 difference in percentage bonus increase in effectiveness.

In other words 1 unit of retinue vangaurd with 55 damage x 100 x 580% = 31,900 damage ~= 3,190 levies.

And 1 unit of retinue heavy lancers with 200 damage x 50 x 280% = 28,000 damage ~= 2,800 levies.

The knights above have 40+ Prowess so they should kill over 3,190 levies.

This is almost exactly (3,591 levies) how many levies were killed in the above example with the 3 units of knights by the youtuber...so to be fair it's working exactly as intended more or less, just saying.

The arguement thus becomes should 3 units of maxed out retinue vangaurd or 3 units of maxed out knights buffed be able to win against ~13,000+ levies and kill 3,000+ in a single battle. But again factoring in combat width...you know like the Battle of Thermopylae...300 Spartans I mean retinue vangard or 3 units of knights should be able to kill 3,000 levies in a choke point yeah?

So again...working as intended??
 
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So again...working as intended??

Ah, but you're missing the argument structure trick.

CK2 was 'functional,' whereas CK3 is 'nonsensical'... which implies that CK2 was sensical, with it's 'my culture makes me magically able to launch better strategems for combat modifiers when the retinue is placed on a flank with just-so composition', and that CK3 does not work at all.

But, not accidentally, 'functional' and 'sensical' are not synonyms. It's an argument by insinuation, not actually a claim that CK3 does not work, and therefore an argument that CK3 combat system does work does not actually disprove the argument.

It's an apples-to-oranges argument, which makes apple-based arguments irrelevant.
 
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The end-games are expected to be unbalanced.
About 'balance' , I'm not sure what other players expect, but I prefer a game that remains challenging until the very end rather than becoming boring halfway through. :p

the premise that a player in the medieval era has real-time knowledge of the world map, can send messages across the Eurasian continent at light speed, and that the average 21st century hobbiest would be any good at medieval politics.
Yes you are right, these and lots of other mechanisms in the game are not realistic.

Maybe some of these 'unreal mechanisms' are designed this way intentionally so that an AI ruler can rule better, which will eventually balance human players and AI players.

But overall, without weakening the AI's capabilities, the game should try to improve the realism as much as possible, after all, CK3 is a simulator that pursues realism. This isn’t a “self-inflicted problem” because the game is designed to be a realistic historical simulator. ;)

For example, a soft cap on KE are 'fair' for both human and AI while ‘Fog of war’ are not.
 
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About 'balance' , I'm not sure what other players expect, but I prefer a game that remains challenging until the very end rather than becoming boring halfway through. :p

Then you are not expecting a strategy game, nor does it sound like you want a strategy game.

Strategy games fundamentally get easier over time, as your strategies from the start of the game start to pay increasing dividends. It is the fundamental difference between a strategy game, the sort of game where a plan of action or policy is designed to achieve an objective or major aim over time, and a non-strategy game, where difficulty challenges are generally posed regardless of any possible investment decision (i.e., strategy) available to the player.

Seeking to stack modifiers until they get silly is consistent with strategy games. Seeking to prevent players from accruing advantages because the game gets easier when you have advantage is not consistent with strategy games.

Additional, 1240 is not halfway through an 867 campaign.


But overall, without weakening the AI's capabilities, the game should try to improve the realism as much as possible, after all, CK3 is a simulator that pursues realism. This is not ‘a self-inflicted problem’, but the self-positioning of the game itself. ;)

The positioning you try to assign the game is not the positioning of the game itself, and so yes, is self-inflicted.

I have been playing Crusader Kings long enough to remember the Seven Deadly Sins advertisements, the muslim decadence revolts that spawn legions from empty deserts because your third cousin once remove was just one asshole too many, the magical satanism societies, the Aztec invasions, the Glitterhoof affairs and replacing all of Europe with horse-cultures. This was the 'serious strategy game' iteration, no less- the one many a forum poster looks back to as 'the good old days' of 'serious.'

Crusader Kings has never been 'a simulator that pursues realism.' It has its verisimilitude limits- as a design decision CK3 chooses to avoid the supernatural- but it also has always allowed and even encouraged degrees of silliness for players.



For example, a soft cap on KE are 'fair' for both human and AI while ‘Fog of war’ are not.

Why is it fair to cap knight effectiveness that requires substantial strategic investments to achieve? The AI is not investing in knight effectiveness in the first place, but the AI also does not mind if you do.

Which returns to the issue of who is being negatively affected by this problem, and how it is not a self-inflicted problem for those who don't like it.
 
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Which is copium, if we be honest about. "Retinue"-thing was invented after release, when people pointed out how broken knights are, and exist only as a single line of localisation.
Yeah, people either forget it, or weren't even aware.

There was never any retinue, it's literally the one knight and it has been just the knight since launch, people noticed these ridiculous scenarios so paradox just changed the flavor text to claim it's the knight......And their retinue.

Except there is no retinue, in this game there is battle width, how much width does this supposed retinue take from combat? There's attrition, if you march those 3 knights in the desert for a few months how many of these ghost retinue soldiers would you lose?

None, because they don't exist.

Honestly, knights shouldn't even be a thing at all, they should act as commanders for actual elite soldiers, your Men at Arms, adding bonuses to them instead of being space marines on the battlefield. Similar to how sub commanders existed to lead different levy regiments back in CK2 with a mechanic that was never fully expanded.
 
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I disagree, I would enjoy an ebb and flow and diminishing returns in other areas too. Growth as in conquering more land should not just be a linear benefit but a burden, and you should struggle to keep a large realm together no matter how skilled you are at gaming the system or how good your character is.
 
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instead of being space marines on the battlefield

But I like space marines =/

I also like Uhtred of Bebbanburg...he killed hundreds (500+? More?) of Vikings...usually about a 100 every battle...I watched the historical chronicles on Netflix...so it must be true. =(

If they could kill 100 Vikings (with 140% damage + 110% tougness bonus from barracks and smithies) every battle...pretty sure Uhtred and his 3 companions could kill at least 1,000 levies every battle.
 
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Maybe PDX should collaborate with Warhammer 40K to make a grand strategy game centered around the imperium of Man.

Maybe Legends of the Dead should have added zombie armies, like in Game of Thrones...in place of populist uprisings...but only in plague affected regions. Would have been better than whatever the heck legends are suppossed to be.
 
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Furthermore, from a realism standpoint, the idea of three knights defeating an army of 13,733 is simply unrealistic. ;)

To be fair...if I watched 3 guys holding a trailhead passage between a rocky hillside kill 3,591 of my clansmen, I'd probably try to convince the other remaining 10,182 of us to just call it a day and go home too.

!!!You SHALL NOT Pass!!! Muhahahahah!

13,733 levies show up at your front door...

You and your 2 boys be like...

"Hold my ale...be right back."

*Handles business*. 3,113 dead peasants later...

"No Glittehoof, babe...it was all just one big misunderstanding. Don't worry babe, me and the lads straightened things out. The rest of them there boys decided to call it day and head home."

"Right then, poor me another. Round of drinks for the pals, them both!"
 
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Then you are not expecting a strategy game, nor does it sound like you want a strategy game.

Strategy games fundamentally get easier over time, as your strategies from the start of the game start to pay increasing dividends. It is the fundamental difference between a strategy game, the sort of game where a plan of action or policy is designed to achieve an objective or major aim over time, and a non-strategy game, where difficulty challenges are generally posed regardless of any possible investment decision (i.e., strategy) available to the player.

This is a nonsensical take. There is no rule about strategy games being inherently easier as it goes on. The phenomenon of endgame being boring in strategy gaming is almost always viewed as a design flaw, albeit one that rarely gets solved in a satisfactory way.

Just because a game should reward players making good strategy, it doesn't necessarily mean that a game cannot pose new challenges as old problems are solved by player strategy. The issue of over stacking combat bonuses is a major impediment to CK 3 being able to present new challenges due to the fact that super armies effectively are a blunt instrument that a player can wield vs any problem they face. It doesn't matter if the threat is external or internal, a player made army crushes AI armies because the AI is incapable of abusing the system the same way the player can.

So the solution is simple. Curb the ability of the player to create armies that can take on many times its own numbers or make the AI be able to match the player army composition and stats.

A change to this doesn't make it less of a strategy game. A player can still focus on military development as a primary instrument. Players are simply looking for the system to change so it doesn't become a singular tool to solve all problems and challenges. A game which allows a player to use 1 strategy to invalidate all challenges is inheriently less strategic than one which forces a player to consider and interact with all aspects of its systems in balance.
 
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This is a nonsensical take. There is no rule about strategy games being inherently easier as it goes on. The phenomenon of endgame being boring in strategy gaming is almost always viewed as a design flaw, albeit one that rarely gets solved in a satisfactory way.

Just because a game should reward players making good strategy, it doesn't necessarily mean that a game cannot pose new challenges as old problems are solved by player strategy. The issue of over stacking combat bonuses is a major impediment to CK 3 being able to present new challenges due to the fact that super armies effectively are a blunt instrument that a player can wield vs any problem they face. It doesn't matter if the threat is external or internal, a player made army crushes AI armies because the AI is incapable of abusing the system the same way the player can.

So the solution is simple. Curb the ability of the player to create armies that can take on many times its own numbers or make the AI be able to match the player army composition and stats.

A change to this doesn't make it less of a strategy game. A player can still focus on military development as a primary instrument. Players are simply looking for the system to change so it doesn't become a singular tool to solve all problems and challenges. A game which allows a player to use 1 strategy to invalidate all challenges is inheriently less strategic than one which forces a player to consider and interact with all aspects of its systems in balance.
Let's not forget the issues run much deeper, no abuse, of any kind, is necessary to reach these results.

The screenshots of 3 knights destroying any army in the game is one of the most absurd examples, but even if he had almost 1/10 of those boosts he could still do the same with all of his normal knights with extreme ease. To break CK3 and find yourself in a situation in which having any fun is impossible barely takes any game knowledge, all you need is to be literate. And I mean it literally, if you can read what buildings do and simply add 2~3 mid tier buildings to a couple of counties, then station your MAA on them to receive their normal bonuses, you'll have enough power to stackwipe pretty much any army in the planet, it is that ridiculous.

The only scenario in which you could possibly have a "competitive" fight with the AI is if you are unable to read Anything, then proceed to build nothing but stables to station nothing but infantry in those counties receiving 0 bonuses.
 
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Let's not forget the issues run much deeper, no abuse, of any kind, is necessary to reach these results.

The screenshots of 3 knights destroying any army in the game is one of the most absurd examples, but even if he had almost 1/10 of those boosts he could still do the same with all of his normal knights with extreme ease. To break CK3 and find yourself in a situation in which having any fun is impossible barely takes any game knowledge, all you need is to be literate. And I mean it literally, if you can read what buildings do and simply add 2~3 mid tier buildings to a couple of counties, then station your MAA on them to receive their normal bonuses, you'll have enough power to stackwipe pretty much any army in the planet, it is that ridiculous.

The only scenario in which you could possibly have a "competitive" fight with the AI is if you are unable to read Anything, then proceed to build nothing but stables to station nothing but infantry in those counties receiving 0 bonuses.

No disagreement there. I will say though that I think there needs to be room for the player to outplay the AI to some degree in any aspect of the game (mil,dip,econ,subterfuge) even if it is a significant degree. We want to reward players for doing smart things.

What we don't want is for the player to be able to very easily use one tool to invalidate all other spheres of decision making in the game at almost no cost in others.

Ie what if the game let players get so good at econ they can simply hire any and all mercs continuously for all time. Or that you can simultaneously seduce every single wife of every ruler in one year and cuckold the entire map?

CK3 offers many avenues of abuse and some onus is on the player not to exploit to the extreme but warfare is the easiest to break and should be addressed.
 
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To break CK3 and find yourself in a situation in which having any fun is impossible barely takes any game knowledge, all you need is to be literate. And I mean it literally, if you can read what buildings do and simply add 2~3 mid tier buildings to a couple of counties, then station your MAA on them to receive their normal bonuses, you'll have enough power to stackwipe pretty much any army in the planet, it is that ridiculous.

You def aren't wrong. I've said it before but I'll confess again...I never heard of Paradox before my brother suggested I look at CK3 and I love strategy games.

Had no idea how to play, suffered immense information overload as soon as I qued up the tutorial...but then after assassinating the guy next to me and his kids (I only had like 100 MAAs and 300 levies and was dead broke so murder it is) and somehow getting his county title I had a nice little army of like 1080 soldiers total, like 500 MAAs and maybe 600 hundred levies and a few knights maybe 4, only to get war declared on me by the Scottish King with like 5800 troops who already conquered both the two Irish dutchies north of me. I barely knew how to play, so I figured we'll that's game over I'm a vassal or facing death for sure.

So I figured I'd personally lead my army (think I was martial focused) and take a stand in a blaze of glory with whatever advantage I could stack...hills, plains, etc. and call this tutorial a wrap...only to see the AI send their army in two waves of 2800 guys...which somehow I defeated just barely losing like 300 guys the first time and killing a lot of theirs...and then my heroic 800 guys facing one last battle against the second stack off 2800 which was fought to the last man...but we won...with like me, 2 knights (2 died), and a dozen men left...literally.

Yeah it seems like an epic win right? Lots of fun? But to be honest...I was kinda left scratching my head like...if I can win even if just barely against such seemingly overwhealming odds now and have no idea what I'm doing...how much of a challenge will this ever be? The answer is it just gets easier...until you eventually figure out how to use 3 boss knights to put down a full on insurrection of 13k+ levies. =/
 
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I will say though that I think there needs to be room for the player to outplay the AI to some degree in any aspect of the game (mil,dip,econ,subterfuge) even if it is a significant degree. We want to reward players for doing smart things.

What we don't want is for the player to be able to very easily use one tool to invalidate all other spheres of decision making in the game at almost no cost in others.

I just personally feel like all avenues should be equally viable, fun, and balanced. I'm ok with some play-sryles having more utility at different points in the game though...like intrigue being more useful if you are small...you can't send an army to kill a king...but you can send an assassin...while things like powerful armies from stacking tech and buildings or diplomacy will be more useful for larger kingdoms or Empires.

I jist think there are not enough tools to make them all equally useful becuase a lot of the games focus is on improving g characters instead of improving character actions, choices, or abilities.

What I mean by that is that a small rich country could use money or intrigue to bribe enemy armies to disband, or leave, or recruit enemy commanders or knights to their court to temporaily swing the power against larger adversaries, forcing a delayed attack (no commander?) or army penalty, etc. Or offer baronies or counties to sue for temp peace. Or pay a Daneguild (money) instead of being raided affecting development. But such abilities or actions don't exist currently so some play styles like intrigue are under developed compared to Stewardship or Martial which are pretty OP.

Martial could be good for small dutchies too by playing tall and making powerful well trained retinues if you don't want to go for emporer etc. But I jist feel like certain things like $$ or elite MAAs reign supreme becuase the AI doesn't know how to buff.

I'd love to build pleasure palaces and role play more but they are underwhelming and I don't really go for intruge or diplomacy all that often cuase you don't really need too and other things are more useful. Even though Diplomacy is stupid broken (OP) atm too.

I'd like to see intrigue tie more with diplomacy but also overlap with martial...like maybe intrigue having events fire like for seiges...like spies open gates (+seige progress) or spread disease intentionally to provences by things like lobbing diseased animals over the walls...which could then accidently on purpose but unintentionally trigger like a plague on the map that might just spread to your domain lol. Risk reward right? =>

Lots of stuff just needs a second pass and balancing that's all. Maybe a few more intrigue options for spying stuff to matter more. Or harder to make all your vassals happy....which leads back to problem of ability stacking being super high for the player sometimes compared to the AI...becuase even though the AI can get OP stats on characters sometimes...it don't know what to do with them.