221) WAD: Additional opposite traits needed

[Solmyr]

Additional opposite traits needed

While not specifically a bug, IMO certain non-opposite traits should still be mutually exclusive:

Cruel - Forgiving
Lazy - Valorous (?)
Merciful - Vengeful
Selfish - Trusting (?)
Proven Dealbreaker (Gruff Diplomat in-game) - Honest
Tough Soldier - Coward
Detached Priest (Fanatical Priest in-game) - Sceptical
Martial Cleric - Coward
Scholarly Theologian - Reckless

Thoughts?

 

[kurtbrian]

logged.

people, go ahead and discuss.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

While not specifically a bug, IMO certain non-opposite traits should still be mutually exclusive:

Cruel - Forgiving

I do not see how these are mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible to act with cruelty towards others and yet forgive them their actions. The one has to do with your disposition towards others, the second with your reaction to the actions of others.

Lazy - Valorous (?)

Not mutually exclusive - though an interesting combination.

Merciful - Vengeful

Probably your best case, as they deal with the same issue: How you deal with (defeated) enemies. Thumbs up on this one.

Selfish - Trusting (?)

Not mutually exclusive. The ease with which you trust others has nothing to do with whether you act selfishly - they are completely separate issues.

Proven Dealbreaker (Gruff Diplomat in-game) - Honest

A proven dealbreaker should probably be mutually exclusive with an honest man, but a gruff diplomat should not be so - a hard call

Tough Soldier - Coward

An interesting case. Is it impossible for a tough soldier to encounter something so bad that he turns into a coward, while still maintaining the majority of his soldierly skills? I think not.

Ideally, you might want to remove the Tough Soldier trait if a person turned into a coward, but that messes up with the education system so is probably not a good idea. I don't like the idea of an education that can make you immune to cowardice (or cowardice slander) in-game, honestly.

Detached Priest (Fanatical Priest in-game) - Sceptical

Another interesting case. The detached priest should not be mutually exclusive with the sceptical one, but the fanatical one should.

Martial Cleric - Coward

See tough soldier. Not mutually exclusive.

Scholarly Theologian - Reckless

Hmm. Considering some Scholarly Theologians of my distant acquaintance, those are not on the face of it mutually exclusive.

 

[Solmyr]

I do not see how these are mutually exclusive. It is entirely possible to act with cruelty towards others and yet forgive them their actions. The one has to do with your disposition towards others, the second with your reaction to the actions of others.

Wouldn't your reaction to others influence your actions though? If you forgive people easily, you aren't likely to be cruel to them. And you agreed with me on the Merciful-Vengeful case, and Cruel-Forgiving are just the other side of those.

A proven dealbreaker should probably be mutually exclusive with an honest man, but a gruff diplomat should not be so - a hard call

Well, it's "proven dealbreaker" in the manual and as a trait name, but I assume someone changed the in-game name to Gruff Diplomat before it was finished. Anyhow, the tooltip on gruff diplomat seems to be consistent with the "proven dealbreaker" profile.

Ideally, you might want to remove the Tough Soldier trait if a person turned into a coward, but that messes up with the education system so is probably not a good idea. I don't like the idea of an education that can make you immune to cowardice (or cowardice slander) in-game, honestly.

An event could be scripted which checks for the presence of both traits on the same character, and replaces Tough Soldier with Misguided Warrior if that is the case.

Another interesting case. The detached priest should not be mutually exclusive with the sceptical one, but the fanatical one should.

Yeah well, again it's detached_priest as the trait name, and Fanatical Priest in-game. Description fits the fanaticism aspect though, so the combo should prolly not be possible.

Hmm. Considering some Scholarly Theologians of my distant acquaintance, those are not on the face of it mutually exclusive.

Yeah well... I see the CK scholarly theologians more like wise bookworm types.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Wouldn't your reaction to others influence your actions though? If you forgive people easily, you aren't likely to be cruel to them. And you agreed with me on the Merciful-Vengeful case, and Cruel-Forgiving are just the other side of those.

Nice try, but noooooo.

It is entirely possible to treat others cruelly while forgiving others for their bad actions and not bearing them hatred.

E.g. you can be cruel to your wife, your dog, your horse, and to the enemies your have in your power (probably being tortured in your dungeons) yet still forgive them misdeeds. Your son, used to practising on the kitchen staff, knocked up the virgin daughter of the count next door? Give him a beating and forgive him his sin. Your daughter poisoned her maid? It happens; cut down on her supply of dangerous herbs for a week or two to show her that damaging valuable property is not acceptable, but bear her no long term ill will.

Forgiving is NOT necessarily the same as not exacting just punishment.

 

[kurtbrian]

Johan has informed me it is WAD.

 

[Solmyr]

Nice try, but noooooo.

Fine. So then if you are Merciful & Vengeful, you go after people for revenge, but when you catch them, you are nice to them?

 

[kurtbrian]

Fine. So then if you are Merciful & Vengeful, you go after people for revenge, but when you catch them, you are nice to them?

something like that, yes.

I'm sorry that you wasted a lot of time though.

 

[Solmyr]

I'm sorry that you wasted a lot of time though.

It's okay, I might edit my own files to include some of these, and tossing out ideas is always fun.

 

[Solmyr]

A proven dealbreaker should probably be mutually exclusive with an honest man, but a gruff diplomat should not be so - a hard call

Ok, I've taken a closer look at these traits, and I've become convinced that they've suffered from a bad case of Swenglish. Basically, it seems that the names were supposed to be "Proven Dealbroker" and "Rough Diplomat" - meaning a character who dabbles in diplomatic dealing but is by no means the best at it. The tooltip description seems to support that.

 

[Cat Lord]

Johan has informed me it is WAD.

Who are we, again, to challenge the says of the God of Thunders and Rock & Roll ?

Cat