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333) BUG: Scenarios and tags

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Doc said "you can go home"
Dec 29, 2002
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Scenarios and tags

Ok finally figured it out.

This thread combines these 3 threads, and what the real problems are.

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145876
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145755
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=145877

Using ‘King’s absolutely excellent trick, you can route out all ‘kingdom/duchy/count does not show/centre on correct provinces’ under selection of a scenario. Takes 1min to correct this. So we will not get into any of this.
However doing this nice trick there are some other bugs left still.

Hastings 1066
Duchy: Pisa –This guy is not a Duke but a King.
Count: Pereyaslavl – Likely a set-up bug. This guy is a count of 2 province laying 2000km apart

The Third Crusade 1187
Kingdom: Bosnia. – This guy is not a king, but a Duke
Kingdom: Sicily – Not a king but a Duke.
Duchy: Croatia – This guy is a King not a Duke.
Duchy: Minsk – Is a King, not a duke.
Duchy: Novogorod-Severesk – Not a Duke (prince) but a King.
Duchy: Volhynia – Not a Duke(Prince) but a King

Hundred Years War 1337
Kingdom: Armenia (1st). – Possible wrong name
Kingdom: Armenia (2nd). – This guy is not a King but a Duke
Kingdom: Bosnia – he is not King, but a Duke!
Kingdom: Sicily – Not a King, but a Duke
Duchy: Croatia –this guy is a King not a Duke.
Duchy: Novogorod-Severesk – Not a Prince (Duke) but a King

First something is needed to be understood. Tags are hardcoded to be Kingdoms and Duchies. They cannot be change via scenario set-up. This is why there are dual tags for some Kingdoms and Duchy. They each contain its set of attributes for king and duke.
I sadly suspect there are a few bugs in this list too :( Ex Croatia, Baghdad, Damascus, Edessa, Bohemia, Navarra and many many more all have dual entries, one for King and one for Duchy.
However the dual entry for Aleppo (ALEP and MALE) both are Kingdoms?? I suspect MALE should be a Duchy!
Arabia (ARAB) and Arabs (MARB) also are both Kingdoms??
Both Jerusalem( JERU and MJER) also both are Kingdoms.

Anyway with my new found knowledge that tags are hard-coded it becomes much easier to see what the problem is in some of the above written.
So lets dig into them.

Hastings 1066

Duchy: Pisa –This guy is not a Duke but a King.
He is a King, there is no doubt about that. There are two solutions to this one.
If you want him as Duke he is missing a Duke PISA (MPIS) entry in the exe. You cannot make him duke else.
If you want him as King simple change him to the correct list and in-game title via 1066_scenario.eug and 1066_scenario_titles.inc.

Count: Pereyaslavl – Likely a set-up bug.
As I said in the original thread, there is a setup problem with this guy. Count of two provinces laying 2000Km apart. I don’t think so.

The Third Crusade 1187
Kingdom: Bosnia. – This guy is not a king, but a Duke
Bosians does not a Kingdom tag in the exe. Correct list and in-game title via 1187_scenario.eug and 1187_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.

Kingdom: Sicily – Not a king but a Duke.
Sicily does not a Kingdom tag in the exe. Correct list and in-game title via 1187_scenario.eug and 1187_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.

Duchy: Croatia – This guy is a King not a Duke.
Likely wrong tag is being used. Croatia has dual tags for King and Duke. Current CROA is being used, which is a King title. DCRO is the Duchy title and probarly should be the one used.
If you want him as King simple change him to the correct list and in-game title via 1187_scenario.eug and 1187_scenario_titles.inc.

Duchy: Minsk – Is a King, not a duke.
Minsk does not a Duke tag in the exe. Correct list and in-game title via 1187_scenario.eug and 1187_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.

Duchy: Novogorod-Severesk – Not a Duke (prince) but a King.
Novgorod has dual tags in exe. However the Duchy title is already used in the same scenario, so he much be king. NOSE, correct list and in-game title via 1187_scenario.eug and 1187_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.

Duchy: Volhynia – Not a Duke(Prince) but a King
No Duchy tag avaiable for him, so he must be king. Correct list and in-game title via 1187_scenario.eug and 1187_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.


Hundred Years War 1337
Kingdom: Armenia (1st). – Possible wrong name
Yeah this is possible a wrong name. While this is the King (CILI) title to the Duke (ARME) title, Armenia does not lay here!

Kingdom: Armenia (2nd). – This guy is not a King but a Duke
Using the Armenia Duke title he needs to be Corrected in list and in-game title via 1337_scenario.eug and 1337_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.

Kingdom: Bosnia – he is not King, but a Duke!
Bosians does not a Kingdom tag in the exe. Correct list and in-game title via 1337_scenario.eug and 1337_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.

Kingdom: Sicily – Not a King, but a Duke
Sicily does not a Kingdom tag in the exe. Correct list and in-game title via 1337_scenario.eug and 1337_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.

Duchy: Croatia –this guy is a King not a Duke.
Likely wrong tag is being used. Croatia has dual tags for King and Duke. Current CROA is being used, which is a King title. DCRO is the Duchy title and probarly should be the one used.
If you want him as King simple change him to the correct list and in-game title via 1337_scenario.eug and 1337_scenario_titles.inc.

Duchy: Novogorod-Severesk – Not a Prince (Duke) but a King
Novgorod has dual tags in exe. However the Duchy title is already used in the same scenario, so he much be king. NOSE, Correct list and in-game title via 1337_scenario.eug and 1337_scenario_titles.inc to make him show in the right place with the right title.
 
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Upvote 0
I think THIS explains all.

Auto-quote... :p

This leads to another point... TAGs arent really hardcoded to kingdoms or duchies: try adding in Hasting to england country definition the tier = duchy and change the tier in "_titles.inc" from kingdom to duchy.... Engalnd will be named duchy, its ruler will be a duke, demesne modifier for a duke, coas & portraits mask for a duchy, etc etc
Click to expand...
 
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Daywalker said:
However the dual entry for Aleppo (ALEP and MALE) both are Kingdoms?? I suspect MALE should be a Duchy!
Arabia (ARAB) and Arabs (MARB) also are both Kingdoms??
Both Jerusalem( JERU and MJER) also both are Kingdoms.
Click to expand...
Perhaps the M-kingdoms are Muslim tags and the others Christian?

Have you looked into the pagan tribes that get a kingdom shield but a ducal portrait? Are those setup problems as well?
 
Mikon Orod said:
Repeat: TAGs arent kingdom or duchies only. And there arent religion related ones.
Click to expand...
No religion related ones? Then what are the kingdoms of Zirids and Murabitids? After destroying them, creating those titles isn't an option for a Christian monarch.
 
because their titles arent listed in the province.csv in the proper slots.
the claimable titles are listed as provinces prerequisites like here...

example

1;PROV1;Vestisland;Scandinavia;Iceland;869;Hills;0;norwegian;1;ICEL;NORW;...

this line means the prov number 1 (vestisland) is a prerequisites for the duchy of Iceland and for the Kingdom of Norway.
ZIRI (like in the example you said) simply isnt listed in this file. If you put (example) the TAG ZIRI instead of ICEL in prov #1 and then you conquer Vestisland, you will be able to create the duchy of Zirid. ;)
 
Yes there are a whole bunch of tags that are only available at scenario start and are not able to be created in the game. My own personal favourite is HREE, I wonder if some modder might find a use for that one.
 
King said:
Yes there are a whole bunch of tags that are only available at scenario start and are not able to be created in the game.
Click to expand...

Sorry, King, but I've already tried to put some "so-called" start only TAGs to the province.csv slot in order to be able to create those titles later in the game.
Well, it worked... ;)

My own personal favourite is HREE, I wonder if some modder might find a use for that one.
Click to expand...

Working on it...
 
Mikon Orod said:
Sorry, King, but I've already tried to put some "so-called" start only TAGs to the province.csv slot in order to be able to create those titles later in the game.
Well, it worked... ;)



Working on it...
Click to expand...

When I say not creatable I mean valid tags that do not appear in the official province.csv file. What modders do with these tags is quite frankly another question alrogether.
 
Mikon Orod said:
TAGs arent really hardcoded to kingdoms or duchies:
Click to expand...

I must disagree. They are hardcoded to act just like that. That you can cheat it on load and in a save (I LOVE the excellent find you have made), is only good and it might even be intended, does not change the fact that each tag are enlisted with a pre-defined title and you cannot make them show anything else on the scenario selection screen – at least nothing I have found so far.
This screen will always show the true nature of your tag. Agreeable this is a very small part of the game and once in the game you can pretty much do what you like to any of the tags.
 
oh well, for this you are right.

Even adding to, say, ENGL the "tier = duchy" in countries and titles, and removing ENGL from the kingdoms prerequisites provinces slots in province.csv, the coa mask in the selection screen will remain the one with a lil crown on the bottom and the titles shown there will follow the true nature of the TAG (but the mask around the picture will be the one for a duchy)... but in the game ENGL will be a REAL duchy, with the right coa and pic mask, the right titles, the right modifiers, the same possibilities and penalties of a "original" duchy.
We can make 'em a county too... poor english... :p

To the last... we can turn a blind eye on this... ;)
 
I will link this entertaining discussion to the scenario threads in the beta forum (as I did Daywalker's original threads). And I think King might have looked at it close, also. ;)

OK, about a bug... The contention is that you can get the correct tier via sceenario changes - good, no problem. But, you can't get the title selection list at scenario load correct - bad. Definitely a bug, once one last experiment is performed. I didn't see any reference to the base scenario .eug file. Therein is also a list of all the title tags including a line with "type=county|duchy|kingdom" for each of them. Perhaps a change there is required.

As an aside I recall the scenario select issue (some titles wrong) to have been mentioned recently in the beta.

Edit: and the scenario stuff, of course...
 
Daywalker said:
There is nothing but ref to this file????

How it works is describe here, as well as ‘Mikon Orod’ excellent trick of cheating the game on load.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=146169
Click to expand...
I know that. :) But, the (for 1066) master scenario file is 1066_scenario.eug. The ENGL entry, for example, is:
Code: 
    ENGL = { 
        gender = male 
        type = kingdom 
        dna = "70250701783982" 
        title = { ENGL C022 C023 C025 C026 C027 C029 C030 C032 C069 C072 } 
        }
 
State Machine said:
I know that. :) But, the (for 1066) master scenario file is 1066_scenario.eug. The ENGL entry, for example, is:
Code: 
    ENGL = { 
        gender = male 
        type = kingdom 
        dna = "70250701783982" 
        title = { ENGL C022 C023 C025 C026 C027 C029 C030 C032 C069 C072 } 
        }
Click to expand...

So??? this is only display stuff, and does not change what the tag really shows.
 
Daywalker said:
So??? this is only display stuff, and does not change what the tag really shows.
Click to expand...
What is the bug?

From my prior post:
OK, about a bug... The contention is that you can get the correct tier via sceenario changes - good, no problem. But, you can't get the title selection list at scenario load correct - bad. Definitely a bug, once one last experiment is performed.
Click to expand...
Forgetting other scenario issues, I am interpreting this thread as saying that you can set a given tag/title (they are precisely equal, btw) to a Duchy tier, for example, instead of a king tier to achieve the *correct* scenario result. But, that the scenario selection list/CoA does not work. Mikon Orod seems to have proven all this. I suggest one other scenario change that may address the remaining issue.

Do I have it all wrong?
 
State Machine said:
What is the bug?
Click to expand...

Ok what is the bug.

Currently there are Kings and Dukes in the scenario selection screen, in all scenarios, that are not really what they seem to be, nor are they in the game.

Example PISA, 1066 scenario
Pisa is located in the Duchy screen. However his shield carries a Kings crown and he is listed as a King in the title. If you go into the game, he will still carry a Kings crown, with a king’s demesne but have the title of a Duke.
As you can see in this image the left side and his title says he is a King, while the right side shows a Duke circle image. So there is something wrong here.
ck_0034.jpg




The reason he is located in the Duke screen is because of ‘type’ entry under the country tag in 1066_scenario.eug. This entry has two purposes. 1) Which list, on the scenario selection screen, is the country listed under and 2) the image on the right.
That is all this tag does.
ck_0036.jpg




The ‘title’ in the same file under the same country tag, gives the actually titles listed on the scenario selection list. Again it is pure display wise. The titles they actually list, the very words they list, comes directly from the hardcoded tags. You cannot get it to say ‘Duke of Pisa’, because the tag PISA is a hardcoded King title, and will always display ‘King’.
Again it is nothing but eye candy. It does not change what you are nor what you own.
ck_0037.jpg



The ‘tier’ found under each country tag in the scenario include file, ‘1066_scenario_titles.inc’ is your actually in game WRITTEN title. The main title you read right under your name. This is NOT your true title. Your true title might be higher, lower or as it is written. Your true title can still be seen on your shield (like on the selection screen) and your demesne bonus modifier.
In PISA’s case we have ‘Duke’ here because ‘1066_scenario_titles.inc’ says ‘Duchy’ under ‘tier’
Again it is eye candy only, cause if you look closely you can see he is a King on the shield and his demesne modifier is that of a Kingdom. He IS King, but with a wrong title.
ck_0035b.jpg



So the problem is this. You CANNOT get the tag PISA to be a Duke and display correct on the scenario selection screen, because it is NOT a duke title. It is a hardcoded King title.
Obviously the original scenario designers is not aware of this (or it was changed and never correct in the files), cause they try hard to make him a Duke in both ‘1066_scenario.inc’ and 1066_scenario_titles.inc’, but it cannot be done with this tag.
If he is indented to be a Duke, and this is not simple a misplacing of a King, you will need an alternate PISA tag, like so many other have, maybe ‘MPIS’. It will never work correct with PISA as a Duke before that. The tag PISA cannot be a Duke.

What ‘Mikon Orod’ has found is a trick that will cheat the game during loading. It is something that is not used in any stock files. It will still not display correct in the scenario selection screen, but you can trick the game into making a hardcoded King tag (or any other tag for that matter) into whatever you want it to be.
So in the actual game you CAN trick the game to make the PISA King title into an actual Duke- with a Duke shield and a duke’s demesne modifier.
It is done by inserting a ‘tier = ’ into the ‘1066_scenario_countries.inc’ file. Something that is not found in any stock files. There is no ‘tier’ found in these files original.
This will correct it in-game, agreeable the most important part, but it will not correct it on the scenario selection screen. – that only a new hardcoded PISA Duke tile tag will do.
 
King said:
My own personal favourite is HREE, I wonder if some modder might find a use for that one.
Click to expand...

Well I am not a modder so I don't know, but the HREE CoA looks a lot like the CoA of Holy Roman Empire.
 
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