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KD.

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Sep 10, 2015
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I've proposed this 2 years ago and other people have proposed similar things as well. But since the next patch will include some much-anticipated map revisions, I would like to repeat the proposal for a few relatively simple changes that will make the Netherlands completely perfect.

1. Border correction of existing provinces
This is extremely insignificant on the larger EU IV scale, but I would like to see a small border correction in the Netherlands, so the province of Gelre borders the province of Holland. (see the map below: I'm referring to the Southwestern part of Gelre/Gelderland)
As a result of this the provinces of Utrecht and 'Breda' should no longer border each other. The small piece of land that would move to Gelre (mostly the Betuwe region) has in fact been part of the county/duchy/province since the Middle Ages.
It's not purely an aesthetic change, since the fact that different provinces border each other also has strategic gameplay consequences. Gelre and Holland should be able to attack each other without having to go through Utrecht or Brabant.
No new provinces needed for this change: very simple redrawing, will make me very happy.

2. Add the province of Overijssel/Oversticht
One of the historic provinces of the Netherlands. It was owned by Utrecht in the 1444 start, so doesn't require a new tag. It could possibly have a tag in 1528, but I don't think this is important. The province adds a new dimension to Utrecht, which stops being a OPM and instead is split into two non-connected parts.

3. Add the province (and possibly tag) of Groningen
The situation of Groningen was a bit complicated: the countryside was mostly ruled by Friesland, while the city proper had become de facto independent from the Bishopric of Utrecht in 1392. So I'd propose: make it a separate province owned by Friesland, but possibly include a new tag that can be released from Friesland to become an independent lordship, as historically happened in 1536.

4. Add the province of Drenthe.
The third province to be added is Drenthe. It should be very poor (like 1/1/1). Just like Overijssel, it should be owned by Utrecht in the 1444 start. No new tag needed.

So, the way I see it, three new provinces and 1 border correction between existing ones, would massively improve the Netherlands and leave nothing left to desire for this area. Of course I understand the Low Countries are already quite densely populated in comparison to other areas, but these small changes would make it look much better and enhance gameplay here. Clickability should not be a problem, as each of the new provinces would still be bigger then Utrecht, Zeeland, Antwerp etc. Ownership of the new provinces should also be required for forming the Netherlands.

The two maps below show the situation about 90 years before the start of the game and the provinces within the Dutch Republic a century and a half later. I'd take the second map as a blueprint for the province borders, but the first one for the ownership at the start date.

Netherlands, 1350: shows the border between Gelre and Holland, as well as the division of Utrecht over two territories.
800px-Political_map_of_the_Low_Countries_%281350%29-NL.svg.png


Provinces of the Republic of the Netherlands in the 1600s: I would use these borders for the provinces
800px-Republiek_der_Zeven_Verenigde_Nederlanden.svg.png

P.S. I know everyone has their own regions they'd like to see improved and I think it's great everyone makes suggestions for different parts of the world: so please don't turn this into another discussion about which other part of the world should be improved FIRST.

Edit 6 March: See the map below for a visualisation of these 4 changes. One small addition: since the small province of Utrecht loses some territory to Gelre, it should be expanded a little bit in the West (give it a tiny part of Holland) to keep it clickable. Moreover, this also corresponds to the two maps above!

winsEG6.png

Edit (6 March): see the discussion below for other possible changes that have been proposed. Notably: adding Upper-Gelre/Roermond, dividing Holland into 2 provinces, adding Tournai in the Flanders region.

uYHsT7G.png
 
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Thank you. I took these maps from Wikipedia and didn't draw them myself (I'm not good at that): but I think the developers of Paradox could use the second map to draw nice, more accurate but smooth borders in the game.
 
I definitly think these changes shuld be implemented in the game, and even some more. The whole border area around the lower rhine around Limburg could be improved, perhaps one new province for Gelders (upper gelres), one for Berg (Jülich were in a union with Mark and from 1511 there was a union of Mark-Berg-Julich)

There could even be it's own culture, "Limburgish" that encompasses the area (Cleves, Berg, Jülich, Limburg, upper Gelres)
 
The Low Countries could definitely use a couple more provinces. Friesland could be split in two and have a province added north of Gelre. Gelre can be split in two and be made to surround Utrecht. Holland can be split into Amsterdam and Den Haag. Other additional changes can be done for Flanders, Brabant, etc.
 
Yes, Holland could be split into Amsterdam and Den Haag for balance reasons: dividing one high value province into two, which are a bit more similar in size to all the surrounding ones. Just like Gent was separated from Flanders. So I would definitely welcome this change, but I personally think the other four proposals are more crucial: they both improve accuracy and influence gameplay.

For the provinces in the Low Countries I think it would be good to look at the 'Seventeen Provinces': the imperial states in the Habsburg Netherlands in the 15th and 16th century.

Most are already included as provinces in EU IV:
1. the County of Artois
2. the County of Flanders, including the burgraviates of Lille, Douai, Orchies, the Lordship of Tournai and the Tournaisis
(Ghent included separately)

3. the County of Namur
4. the County of Hainaut
5. the County of Zeeland
6. the County of Holland
7. the Duchy of Brabant, including the Lordship of Breda, the Margraviate of Antwerp, the counties of Leuven and of Brussels, and the advocacy of the Abbey of Nivelles and of Gembloux
(Antwerp and Breda both included separately)
8. the Duchy of Limburg and the "Overmaas" lands of Brabant (Dalhem, Valkenburg and Herzogenrath)
9. the Duchy of Luxembourg
10. the Prince-Bishopric, later Lordship of Utrecht
11. the Lordship of Frisia
12. the Duchy of Guelders

Then there are the three I proposed to add:
13. the Lordship of Groningen (including the Ommelanden)
14. the Lordship of Drenthe, Lingen, Wedde, and Westerwolde
15. the Lordship of Overijssel

And two that I wouldn't include because they're too small/insignificant:
16. the County of Zutphen
--> in a political union under Gelre since the 12th century, later in a personal union and eventually just became a quarter of Gelre
17. the Lordship of Mechelen
--> really tiny and close to Antwerp, which is already very small

As Zutphen was basically part of Gelre and piss-poor Drenthe was ruled from Overijssel, two other Southern provinces were also included in the list of Seventeen Provinces instead. These could possibly be added, if you want more provinces in the South of the Low Countries (although they're quite small, so I wouldn't give them priority):
18. Tournai and the Tournaisis
--> See the 1350 map above: a new province Tournai (French) or 'Doornik' (Dutch) could be created from the Southeastern corner of Flanders plus the Western bit of Hainaut, to make it clickable.
19. burgraviates of Lille, Douai, Orchies (also called Walloon Flanders)
--> Lille is called 'Rijssel' (Dutch name) on the same map (shown as part of Flanders). Could be created as a new province immediately West of Tournai, taking a small part from the South of Flanders and maybe some of Northern Artois to make it clickable. But Lille and Tournai are probably too close to include both.


Note that the Prince-Bishopric of Liège and the county of Loon (ruled by Liège) are absent in this list, as they were simply never part of the Habsburg Netherlands.
 
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Wow, you put a lot of effort into it, impressive!

Personally I'd propose a bit more modest changes. That's why I don't think it would be really necessary to split Gelre and 'Breda' as well. Keep in mind that some of the cities there (Assen, Eindhoven) were very insignificant back then.

(edit: Arnhem & Nijmegen are the wrong way around in the map. Nijmegen is south of Arnhem)

Is there a reason why you generally preferred city names over the provinces? (Middelburg, Leeuwarden, Zwolle, Assen, etc?). I'd personally go for the province names (Zeeland, Friesland, Overijssel/Oversticht, Drenthe), as they're a more accurate description of the whole area they depict.
 
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True, that's a good point. If only 2 provinces can be added, I'd go for Oversticht and Groningen. Those are definitely more crucial.

Still, I'd like to see Drenthe included as a province, because it was historically a separate county. And there are many more very poor provinces in the game, so another 1/1/1 province could be OK, I think.

BTW an issue with the name Oversticht vs. Overijssel:
If Drenthe is included as a separate province, the other one should be called Overijssel. If the two are combined as one province, it should be called Oversticht.

Oversticht is an older name and referred to the whole eastern territory of the Bishopric of Utrecht. The name Overijssel was used from 1528 onwards, until the present day, to refer to the southern part.

800px-Low_Countries_Locator_Prince-Bischopric_Utrecht.svg.png
 
This starts to move away from the Netherlands. I read up on the counties/duches around the lower rhine and found some interesting things to work from.

There are 5 duchies/counties I'm thinking of, Cleves, Berg, Jülich, Mark and Ravensburg. In 1521 they had all united into one duchy trough a series of inheritences.

In 1444 they'd rather be divided into duchy of Cleves-Mark respective duchy of Jülich-Berg(-Ravensburg). Those to duchies should be historical friends and have an event working like the castille-aragon union.

There should preferably also be a new province for Gelders in the area Roermond/Guelders

Culture should be (if Limburgish is added as it's own culture)
Mark - Westphalian
Cleves - Limburgish
Jülich - Rhenish
Berg - Limburgish
Roermond - Limburgish
Limburg - Limburgish
Loon - Limburgish

The idea that Limburgish essentially represents eastern low franconian, both Limburgish and Kleverlands and Bergisch. I don't like using dutch that much because "Dutch" is pretty much a creation of the Dutch revolution and at some point I've been thinking that there should exist no dutch culture at start, rather a group of cultures = Flemish, Brabantian, Hollandic, Limburgisch, Niedersaksisch and Frisian which could form the country netherlands and change owned provinces of those cultures into dutch if they do.

After next expansion I might draw a quick map myself to see how those mapchanges work out.
 
Totally agree with 1 and 2.
AFAIK the existence of a Friesland tag is questionable, so I don't know whether that'd be the best fix.
I disagree with 4, Drenthe was so poor it wasn't even counted as one of the "Seven Provinces".

Although I definitely agree that the Jülich area should be changed, I disagree with the rest of the changes proposed by Metz,
Because:
1) There's too many provinces. Up to a certain degree I think realism is more important than clickability, but his changes pass that degree.
2) Some changes are just plain unnecessary and ahistorical, such as dividing the historically unified County of Holland.
3) I'm not a fan of using town names (and poorly chosen ones at that) instead of the names of the actual historical administrative divisions.
 
Totally agree with 1 and 2.
AFAIK the existence of a Friesland tag is questionable, so I don't know whether that'd be the best fix.
I disagree with 4, Drenthe was so poor it wasn't even counted as one of the "Seven Provinces".

Although I definitely agree that the Jülich area should be changed, I disagree with the rest of the changes proposed by Metz,
Because:
1) There's too many provinces. Up to a certain degree I think realism is more important than clickability, but his changes pass that degree.
2) Some changes are just plain unnecessary and ahistorical, such as dividing the historically unified County of Holland.
3) I'm not a fan of using town names (and poorly chosen ones at that) instead of the names of the actual historical administrative divisions.


Holland is still united but in essence we are separating the cities of Den Haag and Amsterdam as a boost.
 
Holland is still united but in essence we are separating the cities of Den Haag and Amsterdam as a boost.
That's no good; both cities were in the same county so making that two provinces makes no sense and Holland doesn't really need a boost.
 
I'd prefer Holland not getting another 15+ province or reducing development, but a more modest addition to Holland to give them a bit more depth would be carving out the northernmost point of the peninsula as a separate province of West Friesland https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Friesland_(region)#History which is historically called for since it enjoyed a special status within Holland. It would be faily poor, and perhaps start with increased autonomy.

Which would make for an excellent achievment to play as Friesland and conquer and culture convert :rolleyes: West Friesland, Friesland, Groningen, East Friesland and Schleswig
 
20170305225644_1.jpg

Very ugly paint drawing. If any suggestion is accepted the borders should obviously be drawn way more accuratly and esthetically. 12 new provinces pr border changes. Trying to have some color coding roughly matching the country they'd belong to. I also emphazised border connections rather than trying to get it too look as pleasant as possible. Mainly used the map already provided by OP but looked at other maps like the one in the bottom of this post
Anway:

1. West Friesland (netherlands - Dutch)
2. Groningen (Groningen - Nedersachsisch)
3. Drenthe (Utrecht - Nedersachsisch)
4. OverIjissel (Utrecht - Nedersachisch)
5. Zuthpen (Gelre - Dutch)
6. Veluwe (Gelre - Dutch) now borders Utrecht
7. Gelders (Gelre - Limburgisch)
8. Jülich (Jülich - Rhenish) Borders Loon and Limburg so to encircle Achen
9. Berg (Jülich - Limburgisch)
10. Mark (Cleves - Westphalian)
11. Limburg (Brabant - Limburgisch) Drawn so to border Luxemburg
12. North Friesland (Holstein - Frisian) Least serious suggestion but thought it fun to include :p

Dev should be redistributed a bit between provinces but probably countries end up with higher dev on an average. Just rough estimates would be

Holland 40 -> 47
Gelre 15 -> 25
Utrecht 17 -> 27

No change in dev to Brabant or Cleves

Jülich pop up with around 20 in dev and Groningen with around 15 with Friesland loosing a few dev points

Map not including but with suggestion for further development:
province of Ravensburg (Jülich)
Luxemburg split into Wallonian and Rhenish province

Also suggesting reshaping the province of Vermandois which looks really ugly atm with the suggestion of adding a separate Picard culture in Picardy

Figure-1-The-Burgundian-Low-Countries-map-from-Marco-Zanoli.png
 
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I think it helps with the visualization if you scetch out what you're proposing on the map the game is actually using. I take it that you would go for something like this?

upload_2017-3-6_0-19-25.png


dd1a7b22-c90e-460a-bb9e-ca531d968b01
LTyv4B2.png
 
BTW, this is beyond the scope of my original proposals, but as mentioned above there could also be potential for an additional province in present-day Belgium.

This would be the province of Tournai. It could be owned by Flanders in the beginning (then it should be called Doornik), be a new tag, or even be owned by France.

Edit:

@AirikrStrife :
I personally don't really see the added value of having a West-Friesland province or splitting Gelre into Veluwe and Zutphen. I didn't look into the Julich region, so I can't comment on point 8-10.

However, I think the inclusion of Upper Guelders (7) as a second province of Gelre would indeed be interesting. This province could be called Roermond (as it's the Quarter of Roermond), while the current Gelre just remains Gelre (as it includes the quarters of Zutphen, Nijmegen and Arnhem). See this map:
Karte_geldern.jpg

Adding Tournai and Roermond to my maps, would make it look something like this:
uYHsT7G.png
 
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View attachment 245087
Very ugly paint drawing. If any suggestion is accepted the borders should obviously be drawn way more accuratly and esthetically. 12 new provinces pr border changes. Trying to have some color coding roughly matching the country they'd belong to. I also emphazised border connections rather than trying to get it too look as pleasant as possible. Mainly used the map already provided by OP but looked at other maps like the one in the bottom of this post
Anway:

1. West Friesland (netherlands - Dutch)
2. Groningen (Groningen - Nedersachsisch)
3. Drenthe (Utrecht - Nedersachsisch)
4. OverIjissel (Utrecht - Nedersachisch)
5. Zuthpen (Gelre - Dutch)
6. Veluwe (Gelre - Dutch) now borders Utrecht
7. Gelders (Gelre - Limburgisch)
8. Jülich (Jülich - Rhenish) Borders Loon and Limburg so to encircle Achen
9. Berg (Jülich - Limburgisch)
10. Mark (Cleves - Westphalian)
11. Limburg (Brabant - Limburgisch) Drawn so to border Luxemburg
12. North Friesland (Holstein - Frisian) Least serious suggestion but thought it fun to include :p

Dev should be redistributed a bit between provinces but probably countries end up with higher dev on an average. Just rough estimates would be

Holland 40 -> 47
Gelre 15 -> 25
Utrecht 17 -> 27

No change in dev to Brabant or Cleves

Jülich pop up with around 20 in dev and Groningen with around 15 with Friesland loosing a few dev points

Map not including but with suggestion for further development:
province of Ravensburg (Jülich)
Luxemburg split into Wallonian and Rhenish province

Also suggesting reshaping the province of Vermandois which looks really ugly atm with the suggestion of adding a separate Picard culture in Picardy

View attachment 245088

For game-playability why not drag Gelders all the way down until it touches Limburg. That way Julich isn't shaped like a skinny "c".