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44) Bug: Vassals or no vassals???

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Mork

Mork

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Feb 22, 2003
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Vassals or no vassals???

Screenie:

post-2-1082208498.jpg


The shields are my former vassals. They stopped being my vassals, for no aparent reason, and I got no warning.'
I suspect it happened when my vassal, who was attacked by the Seljuks, made peace with those same Seljuks (see info ledger in screenie). The thing is, I took those lands, and made vassal states out of 'em, so shouldn't they still be my vassals?
(vs. 1.01, and no succession)
 
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I think I saw that happen to one of mine once. He was in North Africa, got attacked by some evil expansionist muslims :p , he called for my help against two of them (and got it), but never against the third, and when I checked on him he had left my realm. Just for spite, I let him be taken by his third enemy, better some evil expansionist muslim as my neighbours than an untrustworthy oathbroker. At least with them, I know where I stand.
 
It just occured again. This time in north Africa. It seems like if your vassal gets attacked, you can't make vassal during the war, if you do, they'll jump ship the minute the war is over.
So no siege with someone who is not your king (which sucks).

Pm me if you want screenie or savegame.
 
Tremane said:
I think I saw that happen to one of mine once. He was in North Africa, got attacked by some evil expansionist muslims :p , he called for my help against two of them (and got it), but never against the third, and when I checked on him he had left my realm. Just for spite, I let him be taken by his third enemy, better some evil expansionist muslim as my neighbours than an untrustworthy oathbroker. At least with them, I know where I stand.
Click to expand...

You can actually avoid the Evil-Expnasionist-Muslim-Counterattack® by not creating any counties in traditional muslim areas. No matter their size, or the power and proximity of their liege, every single muslim realm in the known world (from Emirate of Canaries through Emirate of Mar to Sheikdom of On The Other Side Of The Globe) will claim and DoW any christian county on muslim lands. Duchies however are immune to the effect, again regardless of their size.

Too bad you can get reliable throughout duchy coverage of all of the Arab world. If you want to expand on muslim lands on a massive scale your only option is to kill them all. Peobably easier than it sounds, I have yet to encounter any sizable difficulties in subduing heathens.
 
Väinö I said:
You can actually avoid the Evil-Expnasionist-Muslim-Counterattack® by not creating any counties in traditional muslim areas. No matter their size, or the power and proximity of their liege, every single muslim realm in the known world (from Emirate of Canaries through Emirate of Mar to Sheikdom of On The Other Side Of The Globe) will claim and DoW any christian county on muslim lands. Duchies however are immune to the effect, again regardless of their size.

Too bad you can get reliable throughout duchy coverage of all of the Arab world. If you want to expand on muslim lands on a massive scale your only option is to kill them all. Peobably easier than it sounds, I have yet to encounter any sizable difficulties in subduing heathens.
Click to expand...

Not quite true, but close enough. I have managed to create counties that stayed unattacked for a while, even when not under the protection of a duchy. You just have to make sure their muslims neighbours are properly chastised beforehand (if possible) or at least chastise the first to try to attack them really hard. Still, it is true that they attract a lot of heat ...

As for the heathen being easy to conquer, so far I have not attacked the really powerful ones, but the one I have attacked were all pushovers :)
 
I've experienced this as well. After a war (in which the commanders mysteriously automatically became counts of the conquered territory and my vassals) againt pagan russia my former marchal now count of a conquered province simply ceased being my vassal. He is even married to my regents mother... :eek:

Also a bastard son of my regents father also ceased being my vassal. I both cases I got no notice and no warnings. :(
 
Mork said:
Screenie:

post-2-1082208498.jpg


The shields are my former vassals. They stopped being my vassals, for no aparent reason, and I got no warning.'
I suspect it happened when my vassal, who was attacked by the Seljuks, made peace with those same Seljuks (see info ledger in screenie). The thing is, I took those lands, and made vassal states out of 'em, so shouldn't they still be my vassals?
(vs. 1.01, and no succession)
Click to expand...

Are you saying the Seljuks got them or that you got them back as demense?

/F
 
FrEDa said:
Are you saying the Seljuks got them or that you got them back as demense?

/F
Click to expand...

The provinces(counties) with shields are chistian *independant* counties. They were my vassals, I created 'em doing the war, to offset the "large-demesne" penalty.
They just got indi-status when the war ended. The green area I still got (obviously ;)), that area I also took from the Seljuks doing that same war.
 
Actually my problem is that we do not receive any message: sometimes the vassal just breaks its tie to you, sometimes by crazy effects of inheritance you loose vassals, and no message (welll for inheritance you can have, but i'd like to see some specific message).

My own XP (typical case): I am king of North Africa and give away to my daughter the county of Fes; without a warning she breaks loose is DOWed by some emirate, she is loosing and still refuses to come back as my vassal; she looses and I kicked again the heathens out of Fes and this time keep the title for me :p

Epilogue: she is locked in some tower whose key is lost ad vitam aeternam
 
What happed to me, I conquered Jerusalem and automaticaly one of my counts (shield) was given to Jerusalem. So it didnt become my demense province. I didnt think so much about it and continued to play, but it might be that my demense penalty was 100% and cant go further. So counts are assigned automatically.
So in your case, maybe you have conquere some lands and computer gave some of your provinces to counts due to cap 100% demense penalty.
Shame, I didnt save my game for experiment.

Can anybody confirm demense penalty limit?
 
Real said:
What happed to me, I conquered Jerusalem and automaticaly one of my counts (shield) was given to Jerusalem. So it didnt become my demense province. I didnt think so much about it and continued to play, but it might be that my demense penalty was 100% and cant go further. So counts are assigned automatically.
So in your case, maybe you have conquere some lands and computer gave some of your provinces to counts due to cap 100% demense penalty.
Shame, I didnt save my game for experiment.

Can anybody confirm demense penalty limit?
Click to expand...

Are you sure that the new vassals wasn't commanding the army that took Jerusalem?

/F
 
Inheritance and losing it/unnamed child alive

Hi,

First of all I want to say that I enjoy the game very much. I don't know if this is a bug, or that it is supposed to happen.

I started a game as the Duke of Mazovia in 1066.

When my eldest son, and only legal son, reached maturity I gave him a county. Within a very short time and without getting a message he wasn't my vassal anymore but he was still my heir.

The first Duke dies and the eldest son becomes the duke, when his eldest son reached maturity gave him 2 counties. In a war with pagans he took another province and he stopped being my vassal and became a duke of his own (Duke of Livland). He also stopped being my heir. Instead the second son was now my first heir. But I and his brothers stayed his heirs.

The inheritance law is semisalic primogeniture.

Another thing that happed, and is that I married one of my relatives to a unnamed child.
 
Granting titles while stil at war

Playing as Prince of Novogorod, I declared war on the Tribe of Samoyeds which owned three provinces. The war went well, and I was soon sieging their last province, having conquered one myself and the third being claimed by a vassal. I then (while stil sieging the enemy capital) granted a member of my court the County of Bjarmia, only to see the county instantaneously becoming independent. I restarted the game, and the same thing happened.
I guess this bug is caused by me not yet technicaly owning the province, but then I should not have the option to grant the title away ether??
 
Random vassals gain independence on war end

I've seen some notes here and there that makes me think others have experienced this problem as well.

In two games now (as Vladimir and as France) I've had several of my vassals suddenly become independent, without any message or warning. I did notice that, in both cases, I was at war with a Muslim kingdom and the vassals broke away the same instant that I captured the last province of the muslim kingdom I was at war with. I'm certain that this is a bug - there was no message of any kind indicating why the vassals would have broken away, and it isn't due to some kind of inheritance - as a matter of fact, in both cases one of the counties to break away was controlled by an unmarried child of mine, and they were still in control after the county became independent.

Also, I was not at war with any of the breakaways, and did not have claims on any of their titles, so they hadn't simply cancelled the vassalization. This was also not caused by the vassals moving up to the same power tier as me, in the latest game as france two of the breakaways were ordinary counties and one was a one-province duchy, and I was King of France.
 
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i figured this one out, i posted it to fredrik on saturday, so here it is briefly

i think this is caused by the kingdom survival routine which was added in the v1.01. since in 1.00 kingdoms were destroyed when the liege lost all his demesne provinces, this didn't happen.

this is what happens: if you create a vassal with the same id tag as a vassal of a heathen liege, this vassal will become independent after his liege is destroyed. so, you can lose counts after an emirate is destroyed, and you can lose dukes after you destroy a kingdom, if the same id tag was used.

ie. if you are at war with the fatimids, you destroy the emirate of medina and create a duke of medina, as soon as you destroy the fatimids, the duke of medina will become independent. it is irrelevant if you create the duchy in war or peace. the splintering can happen even if the former id tag liege is destroyed in a war in 20-30, or more years.

ie. if you ara at war with pecheneg, and you create a duke of moldavia, a coun of pereschen and a duke of wallachia, after you destroy the pecheneg, the count of pereschen will become independent, but the dukes of wallachia and moldavia will remain loyal, since the tribe of pechenega had a duke of pereschen as a vassal(the same id tag Cxxx), but not the dukes

ie. a war with the zirids: the duke of sicily will not get splintered away after you destroy them, he will remain loyal since emirate of agrigento and duke of sicily are different id tags, but if you created a count of malta he will be lost

ie. a war with emirate of seville: if you create a count of faro(same id as sheik of faro) you lose him

this probably happens in muslim-pagan conflicts as well, but since they're not playable we can't know.

one solution would be to alter the muslim/pagan id tags
ie.
counts Cxxx
sheiks Sxxx
chiefs Hxxx

also different tags for duchies of varying religions, i don't think kingdoms would have to be altered since a king is not a vassal. i have seen that there are such options in province.csv, this will solve the issue, but all scenarios would have to be edited, and that would be a lot of work...
 
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