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unmerged(27919)

Corporal
Apr 16, 2004
35
0
muslim armies freely trespassing christian lands

Playng as king of bohemia I took my army to holy land to do some demolition :D and to my great surprise I was attacked by muslims armies in my home provinces (prague, morava) in the middle of christian europe :eek:
Is it a bug or outrageous betrayal from my fellow christian brothers? :confused:
 
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If I understand the patch notes right, as long as they are at war with any christian, they can go through all christian lands at will. And as long as you are at war with any muslim, you can go through their lands at will.

Besides, I think it is fair. If you can make war on them, they can make war on you. Obviously the christians that let you cross their lands freely feel they can't take side, and must allow them to pass in turn :)
 
magni said:
that's wrong and unhistoric , should be corrected imho
crusading armies should only pass freely through christian lands
and muslim only through muslim

Sorry, but would mean major troubles elsewhere. Working as Designed
 
In which case it is designed very, very badly. Clearly the meaning is that Muslim armies shouldn't be allowed to traipse over Christian lands as they can't click on a Christian province they're at peace with. The problem arises when they're at war with a Christian ruler, as it allows them to "click" on the province they're at war with and move their troops there. This means that when they have to retreat they also have to retreat all the way back to their own province.

The idea of Muslims marching across Europe, battling it out with Bohemia while the rest of Europe watches on reduces any claim to historical "realism" in the game to a joke. Someone ought to find a way of fixing it, glibly brushing it off as "working as designed" doesn't cut it. The fact that it also seriously unbalances the game just makes it worse, as, if the Muslims successfully take some provinces, it allows you to grab some prime European real-estate with no prestige loss. It's a serious flaw and a method for fixing it should be found.
 
Narcizo, clearly the Muslims should be allowed to traipse anywhere they wanted in infidel lands without asking permission first, just like Christians are, and should be, allowed to walk all over the Muslim nations.

It is up to the nation, which land is trespassed upon, to choose whether to react to the provocation by declaring a fully justified war or to let it slide.

If there is an issue here, it is that the AI seldom if ever sees it as a reason to declare war on the trespassers but rather chooses to let it slide time and time again.
 
I agree with Peter, but then it's still a minor bug then,

because historically speaking there was a crusade against the heathens,
 
I would like to set Muslim AI defensive. There should also be crusader AI which attacks against holy land. If Christian armies are on Muslim soil Muslim forces should fight against those armies and try to defeat them. Otherwise, Muslims should guard their lands.

If Muslim forces are very aggressive and attack against Bohemia someone could use the situation and start another war against Muslims and try to conquer holy land especially in MP. If Muslims attack against Christian they should attack against neighboring Christian lands not against continental Europe.
 
Finnish Dragon said:
If Muslim forces are very aggressive and attack against Bohemia someone could use the situation and start another war against Muslims and try to conquer holy land especially in MP.
Well, in the example quoted, they fought Bohemia because Bohemia attacked them - they did not attack Bohemia. With regards to exploits and game balance, it would be even worse if the muslims did not try to fight back when attacked

If Muslims attack against Christian they should attack against neighboring Christian lands not against continental Europe.
Which is what they do. They retaliate over greater distances but only really attack their neighbours and weak Christian minors in muslim lands.

It would open for even greater exploits to change the muslim AI behaviour to not go for the homelands of the attackers when attacked but to instead attack other Christian nations in the vicinity. (I.e. attack them as Duke Somebody in western Europe and move in and conquer when they attack the Byzantines in response)


It may be bad history but it makes for good gameplay as going for great rewards should entails risks. Setting up a situation where the human attacker will never need fear a real defeat would be counterproductive in terms of fun.
 
I have seen some weird muslim counties in Iceland, Norway and Denmark. I think Muslims should mainly focus guarding their own soil and reclaiming the lost land. I think Turks should be exception because they should wage war against Byzantine Empire.

If human player sees that AI Muslim army will soon attack against his lands he will disband his army on crusade and reactivate his forces which immediately appeared on his soil and regroup them and attack against Muslim forces. Armies controlled by AI won´t do that.
 
Peter Ebbesen said:
It may be bad history but it makes for good gameplay as going for great rewards should entails risks. Setting up a situation where the human attacker will never need fear a real defeat would be counterproductive in terms of fun.

But what kind of "real defeat" are we talking about? Did the real count of Flanders have to fear a Muslim conquest of his homeland? No, so why should he fear that in the game? What he had to fear was that if he attacked the Muslims, they would wipe out his attacking force, destroying his ability to defend against aggressive Christian neighbors. That is what should be focused on more, IMO. The biggest threat to crusading Christians should not be a Muslim conquest, but ambitious neighbors.
 
Peter Ebbesen said:
It is up to the nation, which land is trespassed upon, to choose whether to react to the provocation by declaring a fully justified war or to let it slide.

If there is an issue here, it is that the AI seldom if ever sees it as a reason to declare war on the trespassers but rather chooses to let it slide time and time again.

Fair point if the AI is working effectively and various realms, duchies and counties are able to band together to fight off the invader, be they muslim or christian. I guess your point is that the root of the problem is the deficient AI rather than the actually rules and I agree with you to an extent. But I'm fairly sure that a muslim army marching through Europe might attract the attention of some rulers who might decide to do something to stop it. Maybe there are examples in history of muslim armies marching across Europe, but I don't think it should be the rule. But until there is some sort of AI in place that does react with hostility to armies marching across it's lands there needs to be something to stop this happening. If not from the historical perspective then from game balancing view point. As an example let me recount what happened in my game.

Playing as the Duchy of Österreich in my first game the Kingdom of Germany broke up very quickly. Caught between Bohemia and Hungary I had to pledge allegiance to someone or I would be torn apart (I thought) so I pledged allegiance to Bohemia. My plan was to slowly grow in prestige and lay claim to provinces around. With timing my hope was, eventually - after a couple of centuries say, to usurp the Kingdom of Bohemia. A difficult prospect as they had huge armies courtesy of Plzan and Praha. As it turned out all my planning to grab titles and the like proved to be meaningless. The Muslims stripped the land from Bohemia and I was able to take all the land, actually gaining prestige and piety along the way.

The game is balanced based on the connection between prestige, BB and title grabbing. (presuming you're playing expansionist, that is ;) ) That balance is completely ruined if you can grab some of the richest lands in the game, and grab a moarch's title with so little effort on your part. I had been envisioning a long term plan to hem in Bohemia while expanding my own influence, that's what I wanted. But instead I was handed it on a plate. Admittedly I could just have ceded all the land back to the King (I think), but I'm not that much of a saint. I think that makes it more than a little bug. Perhaps not as big a bug as the problems finding a bride or with the AI but a major bug nonetheless.

Arguably this situation could have been avoided had Bohemia refused to support me when I initially declared war (then it would have been me that got whomped). Or if Bohemia had made a better hand of it's own defence (consolidating its army and moving into the region being attacked springs to mind as a basic strategic ploy). But of everyone I have spoken to, everyone feels that the concept of the muslims cutting through Christian lands, and vice versa, is stupid. Personally I have my doubts about the way in which christian armies can romp over other christian powers' land but that's by the by in regards to this argument.

I don't know enough about programming to make much of an attempt to offer a solution. Is it not possible for the AI to consider every province it has to move through in order to get to the target province. If it is unable to enter a province as a target province then it should not be able to use that province as a route on the way to the target province.

Erm, that got a bit longer than I intended. I guess that shows that I do think the game has the potential to be, at least, as good as EU2. It's more "my period" so I would really like it to be a challenging, interesting game. Hope I wasn't too boring.

*The point that the Muslims ought to be acting as aggressively as christians for game balancing purposes doesn't really hold up. Maybe if the game allowed you to play the Muslim powers. But it's a Christian game, the game should be balanced in terms of the Christian powers. I think, as the poster above said, that the Muslim powers' AI should concentrate on defending themselves, making it as hard as possible to take land off them. If you deny them the ability to cut through christian territory you're not actually depriving them of all outlets for aggression. They can still attack bordering lands. If they defend themselves well, that is a huge deterent to stop people attacking them. Lose your army on a crusade and you're liable to be attacked by someone else at home. I think the loss of game balance is much less in this case than the example I mentioned.
 
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Narcizo said:
*The point that the Muslims ought to be acting as aggressively as christians for game balancing purposes doesn't really hold up. Maybe if the game allowed you to play the Muslim powers. But it's a Christian game, the game should be balanced in terms of the Christian powers. I think, as the poster above said, that the Muslim powers' AI should concentrate on defending themselves, making it as hard as possible to take land off them. If you deny them the ability to cut through christian territory you're not actually depriving them of all outlets for aggression. They can still attack bordering lands. If they defend themselves well, that is a huge deterent to stop people attacking them. Lose your army on a crusade and you're liable to be attacked by someone else at home. I think the loss of game balance is much less in this case than the example I mentioned.
Reasonable minds can differ on the effect of losing armies against the muslims, unless you play a very minor power I tend to find it nearly irrelvant, but I do follow your line of thinking.
 
Peter Ebbesen said:
Reasonable minds can differ on the effect of losing armies against the muslims, unless you play a very minor power I tend to find it nearly irrelvant, but I do follow your line of thinking.

If the Christian AI is taught to be more aggressive intra-faith, taking advantage of neighbors who had their armies wiped out, then losing all your armies in the Holy Land would be more relevant.
 
Solmyr said:
If the Christian AI is taught to be more aggressive intra-faith, taking advantage of neighbors who had their armies wiped out, then losing all your armies in the Holy Land would be more relevant.
Problem is, you cannot teach Christian neighbours this in general, as wars between Christians presume already existing claims and it is expensive to get new claims.

If your neighbours do not already have claims on your lands, there is - quite literally - no risk involved in getting your armies wiped out while crusading if the muslims are not allowed to fight back.
 
In my experience AI Christians have no problems in grabbing and usurping claims, and occasionally even acting upon them. They could simply be taught to watch for any current wars, and to concentrate on grabbing claims against any neighbors who are already at war, especially against Muslims.
 
Solmyr said:
In my experience AI Christians have no problems in grabbing and usurping claims, and occasionally even acting upon them. They could simply be taught to watch for any current wars, and to concentrate on grabbing claims against any neighbors who are already at war, especially against Muslims.
Which would lead to the cries that this was completely ahistorical, Christians doing their best to kill off crusaders while their armies were away....

...Yes, I know I am playing Devil's advocate :D, but given that some players have advocated making it impossible/expensive to attack those on crusade, it seems a very likely complaint.