AA/AT 88's firing both anti-air shots and aiming to target a ground unit in range in under 1 second? Can this be changed? Seems pretty "unrealistic" as there is 1 barrel and can't have both shells loaded at the same time.
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And the re-alignement time + the ground aiming time. The classic reloading+aiming would be perfect. But I am wondering about the impact of this modification on the 88-divisions, i.e. 16e and 716e.
It's just too powerful, you can't approach with air and ground in a well built network and forced to use artillery in every engagement to get a chance to close the distance. This needs to be changed and reflect the same situation that all vehicles and weapons with multiple types of ammo have to abide by.
I definitly agree with you. However the priorisation of air target could be an "exploit", i.e. sending an attack plane to force the air attack and send a ground attack simultaneously to pin down/destroy the 88. It's a strat which can really weaken relying on 88.
Edit: on the other hand, it could had no effect on the balance. It must be added to the next patch @EUG_FLX =D
Edit: on the other hand, it could had no effect on the balance. It must be added to the next patch @EUG_FLX =D
Well, this is exactly what I'm trying to do and it's just making people rely on indirect fire only to defeat this unit. It should be difficult, not this difficult.
88s are actually the only one that can utilize as they have next to no aim time and shoot instantly.
AA 88's only need aim time between shots, not reload time. Targeting Air and Ground uses two separate reload counters but the aim time is almost instant. If it fires at an airplane, you still have to worry about an instant shot from the ground weapon without the reload timer.
88s definitely need a balance pass. I've been abusing them this weekend in 2v2-4v4 games with 716 and people really struggle when they're massed and in good spots with leaders nearby. Keeping a 2 star 88 stunned long enough to kill it is tricky. Once they hit critical mass in an area only careful smoke and arty use plus creeping up tanks and/or rushing with transports in the hopes of surrendering them will get you kills.
The rookie ones are fine, its vet that makes them stupid.
New players are especially challenged by 88s. I've had a standard 3v3 game where I got 7k kills in a game where my teammates were a 12% Lehr guy and an AI. We ended up with a draw. In another game I saw a guy get 7k kills with the new luftlande division just by creeping 88s. Both times the guy on the direct other side was pretty new and just got clobbered by the creep once the initial line was broken with arty. In the game where I got 7k the guy in mid was a pretty good 4AD player (high win rate, lots of games) who couldn't seem to deal with the combo of HS129, Ju88 and flanking 88s on Colombelles, allowing me to crash into his side for a good chunk of kills.
Search for Clairmont on SD-replays.net and you can find the replays. I posted four of them. My play is hardly perfect, but it really doesn't need to be when I'm crutching on such a beast mode unit.
Edit: and I acknowledge I was wrong before in saying they didn't need a nerf. The whole point of this weekend's 716 extravaganza was to test that claim and, uh, wow. To balance them I'd lower the suppression resistance and recovery provided to AA by vet. That's the big issue here.
The rookie ones are fine, its vet that makes them stupid.
New players are especially challenged by 88s. I've had a standard 3v3 game where I got 7k kills in a game where my teammates were a 12% Lehr guy and an AI. We ended up with a draw. In another game I saw a guy get 7k kills with the new luftlande division just by creeping 88s. Both times the guy on the direct other side was pretty new and just got clobbered by the creep once the initial line was broken with arty. In the game where I got 7k the guy in mid was a pretty good 4AD player (high win rate, lots of games) who couldn't seem to deal with the combo of HS129, Ju88 and flanking 88s on Colombelles, allowing me to crash into his side for a good chunk of kills.
Search for Clairmont on SD-replays.net and you can find the replays. I posted four of them. My play is hardly perfect, but it really doesn't need to be when I'm crutching on such a beast mode unit.
Edit: and I acknowledge I was wrong before in saying they didn't need a nerf. The whole point of this weekend's 716 extravaganza was to test that claim and, uh, wow. To balance them I'd lower the suppression resistance and recovery provided to AA by vet. That's the big issue here.
the game should not be balanced around new players, because that would completely break balance for anyone who is not a new player.
and even as is, balance is completely broken between high ranked players right now yet people are still finding ways to get killed by 8kmh cannons and 280 point hellcat targets. lets just ignore the AC-130, dollar store hellcats (that entire division is actually busted), broken SSB synergy in team games (pre patch 101st AB is that u?), and general cost efficiency/phase superiority of the allies because some noobs cant figure out how to suppress a stationary weapon that gets 3 shot by an M4. or are unironically playing childrens game mode 10v10. nice
might as well just nerf all axis because new players are challenged by a tank having bigger numbers than their tank. then switch ranked to allies vs. allies because LOL why even bother at this point
there are better solutions to the noob problem than tailoring the game towards their standard of play. if they want a playground they have single player. this is an RTS, not overwatch.
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Yeah, it seems like they ought to define the gun in some way where they've got an aim time for ground target. If there's no way to do that with the way the .dat files are structured, then maybe at least for AP shells to have aim time and HE shells to not.
I'm not familiar with how SD's data files are set up like I was for Wargame, so I'm not sure how do-able either of those things is. Given that they manage to have smoke shells take much less aim time than HE shells it seems like there should be some way to do that by mucking with the ammunition data, or defining multiple "guns" for the same gun (one that shoots at air only, one that shoots at ground only), or something like that.
The only issue I have with 88's is that it can target an airplane, fire, auto aim to a ground target, fire and do all of this without a reload timer between shots - takes less than 1 second for the main gun to do a 180* . The reload should be between every shot in a single shot weapon, regardless of it's target. Every weapon in the game works like this except the 88.
IF someone wants to challenge an 88 network with planes and vehicles at the same time, that should be a suitable strategy. Having an AA network of different types will prevent this from being an "88's do all solution" and put value in some of the other cards that can be used.
IF someone wants to challenge an 88 network with planes and vehicles at the same time, that should be a suitable strategy. Having an AA network of different types will prevent this from being an "88's do all solution" and put value in some of the other cards that can be used.
@IS-2 so we should balance the game around the top 10% of players? I'm not sure all five of them can agree on the necessary changes...
I agree with @roirraw in that 88s are currently too difficult to deal with. They are far from impossible to kill, but I would argue that if Fire Pos did not exist and you, as a rule, were not allowed to use arty beyond small mortars, then even the strongest and least arty reliant division that also depends on vehicles/planes would be entirely incapable of matching an 88 heavy deck. The Flak 88 is simply too good at countering everything but indirect fire, especially while Elite. This unit should not be this overly asinine to manage. They are similar to pre-nerf Fallschrim squads in that they are simply too overly capable of countering most natural enemies they will face.
Compare it to big arty guns with AP. Sure, I feel like it's safer to drop a few shells/bomb the gun before I poke it with a vehicle, but I also don't feel like it's a necessity to do so. I cannot say the same for the Flak 88, especially an elite one. Unless the gun is literally pointing the opposite direction (which is rare) I would not willingly poke a Flak 88 with anything vehicular before dropping shells on it. What's worse is the Flak 88 isn't flamboyantly expensive like Panthers are. Sure, they cost a lot, but like Fallschrim, a lot compared to the competition hurts a lot less than several minutes worth of income invested in one KT.
It's even more annoying that Fire Pos itself seems to have been nerfed since RD. Though it might be the smaller ranges, the forced lock on Fire Pos has is absolutely massive and makes it really, really annoying to cheese guns in this way.
Compare it to big arty guns with AP. Sure, I feel like it's safer to drop a few shells/bomb the gun before I poke it with a vehicle, but I also don't feel like it's a necessity to do so. I cannot say the same for the Flak 88, especially an elite one. Unless the gun is literally pointing the opposite direction (which is rare) I would not willingly poke a Flak 88 with anything vehicular before dropping shells on it. What's worse is the Flak 88 isn't flamboyantly expensive like Panthers are. Sure, they cost a lot, but like Fallschrim, a lot compared to the competition hurts a lot less than several minutes worth of income invested in one KT.
It's even more annoying that Fire Pos itself seems to have been nerfed since RD. Though it might be the smaller ranges, the forced lock on Fire Pos has is absolutely massive and makes it really, really annoying to cheese guns in this way.
88 costs about the same as a Sherman.
It's a lynchpin unit for a lot of divisions, much like the Sherman. Any changes need to be done very carefully.
It's a lynchpin unit for a lot of divisions, much like the Sherman. Any changes need to be done very carefully.