A bit more control over the whole excommunication thing

[Serbon]

What I would like is this:

When and if you get excomm. you could do something to change it, like paying the pope to do it, building a great cathedral, starting a crusade etc.

I just want to be able to do it without waiting for event to fire while all my vassals and courtiers are deserting me.

Also I never liked the way excommu. was so random.

 

[postm00v]

Agreed.

If you get excommed, there should at least be a reason for it.

 

[unmerged(93086)]

Agreed, more notifications and pop-ups would be good

 

[yourworstnightm]

Perhaps remove the Papal controller thingy, and have the Pope be a real force you have to please.

 

[Serbon]

Perhaps remove the Papal controller thingy, and have the Pope be a real force you have to please.

Agreed

 

[Alfredian]

I would quite like to see something whereby excommunicated rulers could set up an anti-pope. Other rulers would then have to choose which pope to support.

 

[RedRooster81]

I think there should be a type of papal controller, but more along the lines of a major royal power having great influence over the papacy by force or alliance. If you occupy Rome, you can push through major changes, or the HRE depending on the relationship with the papacy. Excommunication was also a long, drawn out process not to be done lightly. It should be in some cases (and there could be different kinds) a crusade against a ruler officially proclaimed to be a heretic. I thinking about poor Toulouse here, but also HRE Henry IV and all his problems.

 

[yourworstnightm]

I want rulers to be forced to go barefoot to Canossa to kiss the Pope's feet.

 

[Woody Man]

If the Pope is a force to be reckoned with, I hope that the Papal system is sensible in it's excommunications.

 

[Caranorn]

One note: Excommunication and/or other church bans were quite common at times. I've found that historically about every second generation you'd have a count of Vianden, count of Luxembourg or other ruling dynasty in my region excomunicated (a factor in that was probably the close proximity of beligerant arch-bishops and bishops in Trier, Cologne and Liège). But for most the consequences of such excommunicationwere also much lower than they'd be in CK-I...

 

[Serbon]

But for most the consequences of such excommunicationwere also much lower than they'd be in CK-I...

That is because CK is a "perfect world", while in real world maybe one ruler out of 100 would listen to the Pope and attack the heretic in CK everyone listens to the Pope and gang up on the excomm ruler

 

[23EightSix]

Id also like to see some events or involvement from the Orthodox church.

 

[Serbon]

Id also like to see some events or involvement from the Orthodox church.

The problem is the Orthodox church never was or it is now a monolithic organisation as catholic church is.

In the Middle ages there were many Patriarchs all with sole authority in their own country, the Constantinople Patriarch was just "first among equals (and still is) but with no real authority over the bulgarian or serbian Patriarchs

 

[RedRooster81]

Maybe bishops and archbishops should be empowered to excommunicate, and good relations with the local prince of the Church might help lessen the possibility that you will be excommunicated.

 

[yourworstnightm]

One note: Excommunication and/or other church bans were quite common at times. I've found that historically about every second generation you'd have a count of Vianden, count of Luxembourg or other ruling dynasty in my region excomunicated (a factor in that was probably the close proximity of beligerant arch-bishops and bishops in Trier, Cologne and Liège). But for most the consequences of such excommunicationwere also much lower than they'd be in CK-I...

Perhaps excommunication should be tied to bad boy, if you have a huge BB score already, being excommunicated would mean certain troubles, but if your bb is low it should just be a minor inconvenience. Of course if the Pope don't just dance after the Papal Controller's whim, only those with huge BB score, or with bad relations with Rome (and the occassional heretics) should be excommunicated.

 

[Rivus]

With character-to-character relationship scores it would be possible to limit the Excommunication along lines of:
- Person being unpopular in general (BB score)
- Person choice in events that can trigger Excommunication
- Person's relationship with the reigning Pope (and/or bishops)
- Person's relationship with the Papal controller

Having said this, Excommunication should be more negotiable in the sense that the Excommunicated should
- be able to petition the removal of his Excommunication instead of waiting for it to happen by event.
- be able to trigger the end of excommunication through certain events (e.g. Completing the crusades)
- force the revocation as a peace term in the theatre of war with the Pope.

 

[yourworstnightm]

I think I heard BB is gone, and there'd instead be Personal Relations, so Personal Relations with the Pope should play a huge role. Still, warmongering with other Christians, especially those with good relations with the Pope should lead to a chance of excommunication.

And, yes, there should be ways to get out of excommunications.

 

[23EightSix]

The problem is the Orthodox church never was or it is now a monolithic organisation as catholic church is.

In the Middle ages there were many Patriarchs all with sole authority in their own country, the Constantinople Patriarch was just "first among equals (and still is) but with no real authority over the bulgarian or serbian Patriarchs

Right. However, if CKII retains the ability for your ruler to be of another religion outside of the Catholic church and to govern over lands with a large non Catholic population, there needs to some sort of mechanism to allow the inclusion of religious events equivelent to that of dealing with the Papacy.

 

[RedRooster81]

With character-to-character relationship scores it would be possible to limit the Excommunication along lines of:
- Person being unpopular in general (BB score)
- Person choice in events that can trigger Excommunication
- Person's relationship with the reigning Pope (and/or bishops)
- Person's relationship with the Papal controller

Having said this, Excommunication should be more negotiable in the sense that the Excommunicated should
- be able to petition the removal of his Excommunication instead of waiting for it to happen by event.
- be able to trigger the end of excommunication through certain events (e.g. Completing the crusades)
- force the revocation as a peace term in the theatre of war with the Pope.

These are some good rules to follow. I've consulted the Catholic Encyclopedia (newadvent.org), which I consider a good source on Catholic history and theology. The Western Church also allowed for bishops and archbishops to excommunicate anyone living in their jurisdiction. This was not to be entered into lightly. (although fun, having the papal controller excommunicate his four rivals on the same day was generally not allowed.) This means that you can have your archbishop or bishop excommunicate any Catholic living in his diocese or archdiocese. This excommunication could be appealed to a higher authority, ultimately the Pope.

Excommunicated individuals were barred from receiving the sacraments and benefiting from prayers offered for all the faithful, but also from contact with other Catholics, including eating together, doing business, and socializing. I never liked the "excommunicate Duke X and grab claims on all his titles" phenomenon in CK1; closer to canon law was the idea that you were a social pariah, and the general rule was that if you did not appeal excommunication within a year, it was lawful to depose you from positions of authority (this is what prompted Heinrich IV to walk in penance to Canossa). Some monarchs like Philippe I and Robert Guiscard made excommunication almost a way of life, but the HRE was always the Papacy's center of attention, so it may have something to do with how central your realm was to Christendom.